I really need to stop breaking d&d

[thecrimsondawn]

Ive always been good at building. Started really playing d&d a lot more around 3.5, and we all know how breakable that is. D20 games are no exception. The beta tester in me, along with desire to do whatever it is I want to do the best I can just outright shatters the balance of D20 games it seems.

Im playing in a pathfinder game right now. Making an RP concept - Rory mercury meets the darkness. I wanted someone with crazy strength, ability to regen/heal, but never put on that I was strong at all being someone that looks like they are early/mid teens. Took a look at archetypes and found Synthesist.
At the time, I thought it was a nerf. You take a huge hit to your action economy, so I was like, whatever, this is for RP reasons. And then I start to build it. I plan it all the way to lv 20 so I dont have to do research every time I level up. It does not take long for me to notice that I can very easily reach an AC that even the tarask cant hit well. a huge wall of hp, immunity to nearly anything I want to be, and enough natural attacks that I dread doing the numbers every turn.
It was not long before I just said F it, lets see what I can do with this, and I cam to a question that I posted not too long ago about one of their Evos. It seems that you can boost all natural attacks of one type by one damage step. And then you have two step increase with your Large/Huge evo. (3 sizes now). Due to Share Spells, I can use enlarge person on ourselves to gain yet another size bonus (now 4). So I hit a wall there until I started leveling up my currently active hero - a warlord. It was there I noticed the martial training feat and the "PRIMAL WARRIOR STANCE". This more or less gives my natural attacks 2 effective size increases without increasing my size (a total of 6 jumps on the size table). 6 jumps on the table is off the charts! Thankfully I have the Arms and Equipment guide from 3.5 that seems to follow the same formula for damage progression to see that its 6d6 damage PER natural attack. And I get 7 of those... +STR.... +element damage because its only 1 evo point. Thats a whole lotta dam damage.
The only thing I need to do now is find a way to optimize my saving throws before my DM stuffs my carved up body into a trash can somewhere when he finds out about this :P

Really tho. Is 4th and 5th any less breakable? I have yet to touch those systems.

[Sacrieur]

6d6+12 isn't a whole lot, actually. Even if you get seven of them.

Off the top of my head a 9th level Stalker could get 5d6+12 for 5 attacks with a crit range of 16-20/x2 (6d6+18) rolling 2d20d1 for every attack. Sure you'd eventually run out of ki points, but the overall damage output would be some bit higher. And without the penalties associated with size increases.

Alternatively you could do similar optimizing with a scythe and get 3 attacks with 2d4+3d10+9 with a crit range of 18-20/x4 (8d4+3d10+36).

[thecrimsondawn]

6d6+12 isn't a whole lot, actually. Even if you get seven of them.

Well it is true considering I have seen what some people have done with metamagic shenaniganz, however that is from ONLY natural attacks

If you add in so much as one martial weapon, you end up with a few more attacks, and then you can add in haste, and strike move damage, and enchantments it gets a bit more wild, but I am not even going for damage here. :P

[Sacrieur]

Well it is true considering I have seen what some people have done with metamagic shenaniganz, however that is from ONLY natural attacks

If you add in so much as one martial weapon, you end up with a few more attacks, and then you can add in haste, and strike move damage, and enchantments it gets a bit more wild, but I am not even going for damage here. :P

Actually that build gave me an idea.

If you're a stalker who uses the same enlargement/primal fury technique, then your scythe does 3d6 damage. That's 3d6+3d10+9, but if you crit which can be very likely with a stalker, then you can deal 12d6+3d10+36.

[grarrrg]

It seems that you can boost all natural attacks of one type by one damage step. And then you have two step increase with your Large/Huge evo. (3 sizes now). Due to Share Spells, I can use enlarge person on ourselves to gain yet another size bonus (now 4). ... martial training feat and the "PRIMAL WARRIOR STANCE". This more or less gives my natural attacks 2 effective size increases without increasing my size (a total of 6 jumps on the size table). 6 jumps on the table is off the charts!

Do keep 2 FAQ's in mind when doing this:
Weapon Damage Scaling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f)
Size Increase Limitations (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u)

The Damage Scaling is predictable after a point, it alternates d6's and d'8s, and the next increase for a given die-size is doubling the previous number of dice.
(d6's go 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6, 16d6, you'll note that 4 doubles to 8 doubles to 16, likewise with 6 doubling to 12. the next increase would be to 24d6)

As for the limits, you have your "base size" > Huge Evolution.
Then you are allowed one "whole body" effect > Enlarge Person.
Then you are allowed one "limited" effect > Improved Damage Evolution.

"Whole Body" increases do not stack with each other, use the largest.
"Limited" increases do not stack with each other, use the largest.

[thecrimsondawn]

Do keep 2 FAQ's in mind when doing this:
Weapon Damage Scaling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f)
Size Increase Limitations (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u)

The Damage Scaling is predictable after a point, it alternates d6's and d'8s, and the next increase for a given die-size is doubling the previous number of dice.
(d6's go 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6, 16d6, you'll note that 4 doubles to 8 doubles to 16, likewise with 6 doubling to 12. the next increase would be to 24d6)

As for the limits, you have your "base size" > Huge Evolution.
Then you are allowed one "whole body" effect > Enlarge Person.
Then you are allowed one "limited" effect > Improved Damage Evolution.

"Whole Body" increases do not stack with each other, use the largest.
"Limited" increases do not stack with each other, use the largest.

Right, I am abiding by those rules.
I am huge from the evo (2 size bonuses and counts as naturally that size)
Then I can get one from a spell or effect such as enlarge person (on spell list)
Then the damage evo OR feat, both do the same thing but they dont stack.
Lastly is the primal fury stance that says my attacks are treated as if they where 2 size categories larger then they are.
2+1+1+2

Since the stance explicitly says that it stacks with effects that increase your size such as enlarge person, it works. :3

It does seem that the chart you linked me is giving different values then the tables I have, so I am going to have to check the other table and sources to see what pathfinder is doing differently and what chats hold true and if any are outdated now.

[grarrrg]

It does seem that the chart you linked me is giving different values then the tables I have, so I am going to have to check the other table and sources to see what pathfinder is doing differently and what chats hold true and if any are outdated now.

As far as Pathfinder is concerned, that FAQ trumps whatever other table you have.
If a specific weapon/natural lists a value for a given size, then use that. If you go beyond what is listed, then use the FAQ.

[TheifofZ]

Well it is true considering I have seen what some people have done with metamagic shenaniganz, however that is from ONLY natural attacks

If you add in so much as one martial weapon, you end up with a few more attacks, and then you can add in haste, and strike move damage, and enchantments it gets a bit more wild, but I am not even going for damage here. :P

A properly built mounted charger can stack something like two dozen bonuses and multipliers to his single charging attack.
If you add 1 together 6 times, and then multiply the whole thing by 6, and that by 6...
That's how melee combat works for characters without some kind of special bonus. You stack enough minor bonuses and multipliers together to see some truly scary numbers.

... In 3.5 I had a flying character that could get 11 attacks in, once. All of them had Valiant (*2 on a charge), were Piercing (*2 on a dive) or both.
Power attack 2 alone would generate 92 total damage if all of the attacks hit.
I started to use a dice roller specifically so I wouldn't have to spend half an hour each turn rolling all my dice and calculating damage.

[stack]

Right, I am abiding by those rules.
I am huge from the evo (2 size bonuses and counts as naturally that size)
Then I can get one from a spell or effect such as enlarge person (on spell list)
Then the damage evo OR feat, both do the same thing but they dont stack.
Lastly is the primal fury stance that says my attacks are treated as if they where 2 size categories larger then they are.
2+1+1+2

Since the stance explicitly says that it stacks with effects that increase your size such as enlarge person, it works. :3

It does seem that the chart you linked me is giving different values then the tables I have, so I am going to have to check the other table and sources to see what pathfinder is doing differently and what chats hold true and if any are outdated now.
Primal warrior stance is a virtual size increase, which is why it stacks with enlarge person. The damage Eco or improved natural attack shouldn't stack with it.