3.5 How many ways to Skill Monkey?

[BowStreetRunner]

While I know there are a variety of ways to build an effective skill monkey character, I've never really sat down and thought about just how many different ways there were to go about it. The obvious method most players take their first time building a skillful character is to take a class with a high number of skill points per level (like Rogue with 8+INT mod per level or to a lesser extent Bard or Ranger with 6+INT per level). However, there are lots of ways to give a character the ability to succeed on a large number of different skill checks without just using skill ranks. Some of these have the potential to be even more optimized than the character who merely has lots of ranks.

I'm going to list several that come to mind and ask for suggestions as to what other fairly well optimized methods are out there. Of course there are going to be lots of not-so-optimized methods too, but I am just looking for the ones around which you would build a skill monkey character. (Also, I realize that mixing these can be even better - for instance a Bard with Bardic Knack, 6+INT mod skills per level, and Spells that grant skill check bonuses. However I am looking for distinct options here.)


Class with a large number of skill ranks. [Rogue and Scout]
Class with spells that either grant a bonus to a skill check or bypass the need for a skill check altogether (i.e. Knock instead of Open Lock). [Wizard and Archivist]
Class with both a high number of skill ranks and spells that help with skill checks. [Bard and Beguiler]
Bard class with Bardic Knack alternate class feature. [Bard]
Classes with access to Incarnum Soulmelds that grant skill bonuses. [Incarnate and Totemist]
Class with class features that enhance skill checks such as a Factotum's inspiration-based abilities or a Chameleon's aptitude focus bonuses. (Of course both of these have access to spells too.) [Factotum and Chameleon]
Classes with invocations that grant skill bonuses. [Warlock and Dragonfire Adept]
Classes with Psionic Powers that grant skill bonuses. [I don't know which Psionic classes make decent skill monkeys though.]
Classes with familiars/psicrystals, summoned creatures, or other minions that can use skills. [Not sure which are the best options here again.]
Classes with abilities that can enhance other party members' skill checks enough to make them effective skill monkeys. [Bard and Marshal? Not sure if this really works - I'd have to see a build.]
I'm going to put the Artificer in its own category for the moment, as I'm not sure it fits anywhere else. Haven't played Eberron much so have not had the pleasure of running one of these yet. Need to take a closer look.
Have to take a closer look at Binders to see if they can really fill the skill monkey role too. Have seen skill monkeys dip or pick up Bind Vestige as a feat, but haven't seen a skill monkey build with Binder at its core yet.

[Flickerdart]

It is conceivably possible for a conjurer to summon or bind creatures with a skill. Arcane spellcasters and manifesters can get a familiar/psicrystal, which shares their ranks and can also Aid Another. Manifesters can Psychic Reformation to shuffle their skills and feats (into Skill Focus) in a pinch.

Bards can Inspire Competence.

A marshal can Motivate an ability score for +CHA to those skills when anyone in the party uses them.

You will of course want to be Human for the extra skill point, as well as take Nymph's Kiss and maybe even Open-Minded.

Swordsage gets x6 instead of x4 skill points at level 1.

Truenamers (ugh) can use Universal Aptitude for a +5 bonus to everything.

Skill tricks, of course.

(Ab)use of Traits can give you minor bonuses to the skills you choose to focus on.

[Thurbane]

Since I saw it on the forums recently, I'm quite fond of Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric 19. Human with Able Learner, and you got skills and casting out the wazoo.

Although that's just one specific build, rather than the broader categories mentioned in the OP...

On a more broad level:

- Minionmancy, to get Aid Another bonuses.
- Familiar, to share skill ranks (this one works well with Beguiler).

[Telonius]

Human with Able Learner, a starting class with a large skill list (such as Rogue, Factotum, or Bard), multiclassed into an Int-based caster.

EDIT: Ninja/Cleric'd.

[ben-zayb]

Marshal for CHA to X-based skill checks
Familiar/Psycrystal for more heads to make skill checks
Minionmancy (and nanobots, taking it to its logical conclusion) for similar reason as above, as well as for piling Aid Another bonuses


edit: skillmonkeyd!

[Telonius]

Part of it's going to depend (a little bit) on what you think a "skillmonkey" has to have. If Trapfinding is required for skillmonkey-ness, Artificer would be a way to achieve it, but a regular Bard would need to get that in some other way besides class features. (The "Theft Glove" soulmeld, for instance).

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm not sure how I feel about things like Inspire Competence that only work on other characters. If there is a build that allows a character to simply turn every other character in the party into a skill monkey as needed I suppose this would work. In fact, I'd really like to see that build - a sort of reverse skill monkey.

Summoning, familiars, psicrystals, item familiars, and other 'minionmancy' isn't something I've played around with before. How practical is it to actually handle the party skill monkey needs in this manner? That would definitely make the reverse skill monkey more powerful even when other PCs weren't available.

The extra skill point for race, nymph's kiss, and things like are little things you can do to enhance a build, but not something around which you would create a build.

Okay, Truenamer was mentioned. Seriously, is this really workable? I've never played a Truenamer and have never heard anyone championing this class for a skill monkey build.

In answer to questions about whan I consider a skill monkey, it really depends on the needs of the party. Trapfinding is something that usually falls to the skill monkey, but it is really just one thing among many. The pros and cons of different skill monkeys in terms of who has trapfinding or open locks, or who can do stealth versus who has great social skills is really not the focus of what I am looking for. I'm really looking for what are the best chassis to build around - figuring out how to get trapfinding on a particular chassis is not important at this point.

[Chronos]

Another one worth mentioning is Artificer. Between Skill Item and Item Alteration, they can get an insane bonus to a skill check, though it uses up a lot of their daily resources to get it.

[ben-zayb]

^ In that case, the aforementioned Human with Able Learner would be great on a Factotum 1 / Spontaneous Divination Wizard X / Unseen Seer Y / Prestige Bard 1. Your Familiar gets a share of your ranks, you have both Improvisation and Divine Insight (shareable with familiar, to boot), summoning/calling spells to get minions specialized at whatever skill is needed, and racial bonus + hight Int affords you more skill points.

I've tried plenty of familiar/psycrystal skillmonkeying before, and it worked well for information gatherer / scout roles.

[Flickerdart]

Summoning, familiars, psicrystals, item familiars, and other 'minionmancy' isn't something I've played around with before. How practical is it to actually handle the party skill monkey needs in this manner? That would definitely make the reverse skill monkey more powerful even when other PCs weren't available.
Nanobots are nasty TO and you want to stay away from it. But it's entirely practical to delegate your skill needs to a psicrystal, because in addition to your skill ranks they can also take feats (unlike familiars) and don't XP-bomb you when they die (unlike familiars). A psychic rogue's psicrystal is a formidable skill user indeed. Although it is not advanced when you take non-psionic class levels such as the marshal dip, you can use Improved Psicrystal to compensate (which also acts like Skill Focus for a psicrystal-related skill).


Okay, Truenamer was mentioned. Seriously, is this really workable? I've never played a Truenamer and have never heard anyone championing this class for a skill monkey build.
Not really. Universal Aptitude is all they get. You can dip Truenamer 1 and then keep investing into Truenaming so you can reliably affect yourself with your own utterance, but aside from that, meh.

[Telonius]

This one's a bit outside of my usual competence, but I believe that Binder has several vestiges that can help them get nice bonuses to various skills. Naberius is the most widely-known one (thanks to Hellfire Warlock and diplomacy optimization) but there are others that also give some boosts.

[Hunter Noventa]

This one's a bit outside of my usual competence, but I believe that Binder has several vestiges that can help them get nice bonuses to various skills. Naberius is the most widely-known one (thanks to Hellfire Warlock and diplomacy optimization) but there are others that also give some boosts.

And speaking of, Warlock has a couple of Invocations that provide decent bonuses to multiple skills that last 24 hours, and they're all something you could get with a one or two level dip.

[nedz]

Are you just looking for classes
Beguiler
6+ Skill point and Int based with several spells which can obviate certain skills.

Expert

[BowStreetRunner]

Are you just looking for classes

I guess I am. I've made a couple of updates to my original post. I still don't know what the best examples are for some of the concepts. I also don't know if some of them actually would work.

[Greenish]

I like changeling rogue's sub levels. 10+Int skills gets you pretty far. Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 5/whatever. Morphic Familiar lets you switch around the familiar bonuses (but seriously, get Improved Familiar).

Changeling doesn't technically qualify for Able Learner, but you ought to be able to mount a very strong case that it should.

[nedz]

Changeling Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 is a classic build of this type.
Adding another level of Rogue for evasion, or to evade xp penalties, is an option.

There are so many builds you can make though.

And how do you define Skill Monkey anyway: Just lots of skills, or Trap Finding also ?

[Jeff the Green]

Beguiler is in a similar boat to Bard. It usually has more skill points than a rogue, plus it has supplementary spells like knock and charm X.


Changeling doesn't technically qualify for Able Learner, but you ought to be able to mount a very strong case that it should.

There's a sidebar in the Chameleon entry saying they do.

[Dread_Head]

I like changeling rogue's sub levels. 10+Int skills gets you pretty far. Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 5/whatever. Morphic Familiar lets you switch around the familiar bonuses (but seriously, get Improved Familiar).

Take racial emulation so you can get the Elf Wizard 3 substitution to double the bonuses granted by your familiar as well. This is basically my favourite skill monkey.

[OldTrees1]

For multiclass Skill Monkeys:
Remember 4+Int spent 1:1 on ranks is roughly equal to 8+Int spent 3:2 on ranks. So plan out your skill points ahead of time for those moments when you will let a skill go for a few levels to purchase it cheaper later.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not just skill points that are needed for effectiveness. In addition you also need lots of class skills (already mentioned, though ways to add to that with feats like Education haven't been mentioned). Beyond that, a way to avoid failing on low skill rolls is huge. Skill Mastery lets you "take 10" on any mastered skill. That's as good as +9 ranks in any skill where not failing is more important than the chance for a high roll. Adding Savvy Rogue to Skill Mastery lets you instead "take 12". If you've mastered 8 skills, that benefit is akin to adding 16 more ranks for "must not fail" skill checks. (Note: Letting you "take 12" is only one of six benefits of Savvy Rogue; it's a good feat because it gets better with every Rogue Special Ability you gain.)

[Deophaun]

Anyone who can cast guidance of the avatar...

...is a cheater and shall be flogged.

[Curmudgeon]

Anyone who can cast guidance of the avatar...

...is a cheater and shall be flogged.
A Rogue with Use Magic Device and a wand of Guidance of the Avatar is just using the tools for their job.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's not just skill points that are needed for effectiveness. In addition you also need lots of class skills (already mentioned, though ways to add to that with feats like Education haven't been mentioned). Beyond that, a way to avoid failing on low skill rolls is huge. Skill Mastery lets you "take 10" on any mastered skill. That's as good as +9 ranks in any skill where not failing is more important than the chance for a high roll. Adding Savvy Rogue to Skill Mastery lets you instead "take 12". If you've mastered 8 skills, that benefit is akin to adding 16 more ranks for "must not fail" skill checks. (Note: Letting you "take 12" is only one of six benefits of Savvy Rogue; it's a good feat because it gets better with every Rogue Special Ability you gain.)

It's a good point, but getting that far has the serious drawback of having to take 10+ levels of rogue.
You can get much the same benefit from dipping 1 level of Exemplar and going with a Int-focused class like Beguiler or Unseen Seer for even more skill points.
The innate spell access is probably worth more than taking 12 over taking 10.

The first Changeling Rogue substitution level is pure gold though. 10+int skill points, skill mastery on the all the social skills and access to Racial Emulation (and with that access to all the sub levels) is pretty hard to beat if you're serious about your skillmonkey duties.

Taking a caster focus also has another benefit: You don't need to spend any feats on combat ability. A wizard can do his part in combat pretty well without a big feat investment, where a pure rogue usually has to invest heavily in TWF or Archery to not be useless in a pretty big part of the game, or else compensate with items and thus spend a lot of gold. The same is true for pretty much any caster skillmonkey vs mundane ones.

A changeling rogue/wizard/unseen seer/exemplar is a pretty good skillmonkey for just that reason. You can finish up the build with Shadowcraft Mage or Unbound Scroll or, if your DM is liberal and allows early entry, Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Exemplar 1/Unbound Scroll 5.

[BowStreetRunner]

Thanks for the replies. This still leaves me wondering:

Which caster classes have the best spell list for a skill monkey?
Which manifester classes make the best skill monkeys?
Which classes would make the best 'minionmancer' skill monkeys?
Is there a workable build that effectively boosts the rest of the party's skills so they don't need a skill monkey?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Which caster classes have the best spell list for a skill monkey?
I'd say wizards, by a large margin. No other class even comes close to the vast amount of utility spells wizards get, and options like Uncanny Forethought and access to Limited Wish for the few worthwhile cleric spells (most of which are conveniently low level) pretty much seal the deal.


Which manifester classes make the best skill monkeys?
Psychic Rogue is pretty much the only option here. No other manifester gets the necessary skillpoints.
They suffer from lack of splatbook support compared to their arcane cousins and their list is limited even compared to clerics and druids, but they get a few gems and manifesting has its upsides.
Lurks don't count because they're a terrible abomination against players everywhere.


Which classes would make the best 'minionmancer' skill monkeys?
Cloistered Clerics, because clerics are kings of minionmancy and they make pretty decent skillmonkeys anyway with the right domains.


Is there a workable build that effectively boosts the rest of the party's skills so they don't need a skill monkey?
You don't really need one. You can get by without a skillmonkey. Casters take care of a pretty broad range of skills. The only thing you're missing out on are probably going to be social interaction and trapfinding/disabling.
Having a skillmonkey is pretty much a matter of convenience, not an absolute necessity. Unless your party is composed entirely of martial characters with no spellcasting you can generally get by.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'd say wizards, by a large margin. No other class even comes close to the vast amount of utility spells wizards get, and options like Uncanny Forethought and access to Limited Wish for the few worthwhile cleric spells (most of which are conveniently low level) pretty much seal the deal.
I was expecting Archivist actually.

Having a skillmonkey is pretty much a matter of convenience, not an absolute necessity. Unless your party is composed entirely of martial characters with no spellcasting you can generally get by.
So let's assume for the sake of this thread you party is composed entirely of martial characters or arcane blaster types who don't have any utility spells.

[nedz]

Thanks for the replies. This still leaves me wondering:

Which caster classes have the best spell list for a skill monkey?


(Mystic) Ranger, in a natural environment. The spells per day for a standard Ranger is pretty rubbish though.

Cleric is pretty good. There are two spells, which stack, which can boost a skill check. This is only good a few times per day though.

Most full casters can obviate having to make many skill checks.

[Deophaun]

A Rogue with Use Magic Device and a wand of Guidance of the Avatar is just using the tools for their job.
Yes. But the rogue is a cheat by nature, and always has someone out to flog him for something anyway.


Which caster classes have the best spell list for a skill monkey?
I'm going to go with Bard here, simply because of improvisation. It's probably the only level 1 spell that actually becomes more useful as the game progresses.

Besides, hitting things with pointy objects is a skill of sorts, isn't it?

[ben-zayb]

Yes. But the rogue is a cheat by nature, and always has someone out to flog him for something anyway.


I'm going to go with Bard here, simply because of improvisation. It's probably the only level 1 spell that actually becomes more useful as the game progresses.

Besides, hitting things with pointy objects is a skill of sorts, isn't it?

Improv can be taken with a prestige bard variant dip, for people who don't find normal bard levels sexy enough.

[Thurbane]

Ranger with Trap Expert is a full BAB skill monkey, for what it's worth. Throw something like the City Slicker feat in there, or Able Leaner and a dip into Warblade, and you can expand your skill list significantly.

Full BAB base classes & PrC with decent skill points (6 or more per level):


Bloodhound (CAd)
Crimson Scourge (Ci)
Dawncaller (RS)
Deepwarden (RS)
Dragon Ascendant (Dr)
Dread Commando (HB)
Dread Pirate (CAd)
Eldeen Ranger (ECS)
Fochulcan Lyrist (CAd)
Forest Reeve (CC)
Guerilla (PC)
Mariner (AoM)
Paragnostic Initiate (CC)
Ranger (PH)
Scorpion Wraith (SE)
Shadowsmith (ToM)
Stalker of Kharash (BE)
Whisperknife (RW)

[Curmudgeon]

Improv can be taken with a prestige bard variant dip, for people who don't find normal bard levels sexy enough.
"People" here means your DM, because those prestigious classes (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) only exist in a game where the corresponding base classes don't.

[Thurbane]

And speaking of, Warlock has a couple of Invocations that provide decent bonuses to multiple skills that last 24 hours, and they're all something you could get with a one or two level dip.

Arguably, you can use UMD and Codex Advocare (EtCR) to get a least invocation on a non-Warlock/DFA. It depends on your reading of Mimic Class Feature.

[ben-zayb]

"people" here means your dm, because those prestigious classes (bard, paladin, ranger) only exist in a game where the corresponding base classes don't.A bit more verbose than me saying "variant", but that works too.

[Mara]

Factotum with web enhancement released feast that increases the amount of points they get.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I was expecting Archivist actually.

So let's assume for the sake of this thread you party is composed entirely of martial characters or arcane blaster types who don't have any utility spells.
Archivist may have access to all the spells in theory, but in practice you actually have to find any non-cleric spells first. They also don't qualify for Unseen Seer and lack the wizards ACFs, especially Abrupt Jaunt which is awesome on a trapmonkey. They also don't get familiars which are another great asset for a skillmonkey because they share your ranks.

If you have only martials and blaster sorcs (let's say no rangers, because they're decent skillmonkeys out of the box and awesome with Mystic Ranger, Trap Expert and Sword of the Arcane Order) you might have some bumps. The martials will have to tank any traps unless someone took the Summon Elemental reserve feat, you suck at social situations and you're probably going to be pretty low on knowledges.
All that may make things a little harder at times, but it's hardly insurmountable if no one wants to invest even a minimum of resources into skills.


(Mystic) Ranger, in a natural environment. The spells per day for a standard Ranger is pretty rubbish though.

Cleric is pretty good. There are two spells, which stack, which can boost a skill check. This is only good a few times per day though.

Most full casters can obviate having to make many skill checks.

Cloistered Clerics are actually pretty decent even without spells, provided you get the right class skills from your domains. Divine Magician ACF can help too.

[Thurbane]

Cloistered Clerics are actually pretty decent even without spells, provided you get the right class skills from your domains. Divine Magician ACF can help too.

Whispered Secrets adds Spot and Listen, and also gets Glibness on your spell List.

[Chronos]

Quoth Flickerdart:

But it's entirely practical to delegate your skill needs to a psicrystal, because in addition to your skill ranks they can also take feats (unlike familiars) and don't XP-bomb you when they die (unlike familiars).
XP you can earn back. But if a psicrystal dies, it's gone forever, and you've wasted a feat.

And to anyone suggesting summons for disarming traps, remember that that only works on a small subset of traps. Some auto-reset, and some have effects that are just as bad if a summon triggers it as if you do.

[Flickerdart]

XP you can earn back. But if a psicrystal dies, it's gone forever, and you've wasted a feat.
Retraining/Psychic Reformation/Chaos Shuffle gets it back, without the "wait a year and a day" nonsense. Familiars, on the other hand, you DO lose forever unless your campaign spans years.

[kkplx]

XP you can earn back. But if a psicrystal dies, it's gone forever, and you've wasted a feat.

And to anyone suggesting summons for disarming traps, remember that that only works on a small subset of traps. Some auto-reset, and some have effects that are just as bad if a summon triggers it as if you do.

Uh, you can get your psicrystal back free of charge within 24 hours of the last one dying.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Retraining/Psychic Reformation/Chaos Shuffle gets it back, without the "wait a year and a day" nonsense. Familiars, on the other hand, you DO lose forever unless your campaign spans years.

You can also take Urban Companion (Cityscape) with a 1 level dip into druid or if you're a (non-mystic) ranger. It has all the benefits of a familiar without the silly XP loss, only 24 hours to get a new one and it even gets 3/4 of your HP. It's a pretty solid investment for a skillmonkey, especially if you can benefit from some of the other druid ACF's at the same time.

[bean illus]

A lot of the options here are about what to put ON TOP of a chassis, which is cool, but you still need a chassis.

Though there are many ways to do that/this, one of my recent favorites is the Facto13/Chameleon7. Though it DOES NOT get 6th level spells, oh my what it does get. Particularly with skill access.

How does 230+ skill points sound? Well that's only the beginning with factotum. Brains over Brawn makes Cunning Knowledge just explode. At mid/high levels you are getting mods +10/+ on MOST checks BEFORE Cunning Knowledge (by this time CK should apply to every skill in the game) +10 more. By 13th lvl you can CK+BoB+T10+etc=35 on nearly every thing, and that's with only 1 point in each skill. Boost/max the ones you need for RESULTS OF 50 ON EVERY SKILL CHECK.

Though facto is fun all the way up, it does get a bit restricted in non skill situations, and many builds eventually multiclass out. The list of classes that go well with a facto base is huge, but a classic favorite is Chameleon. Ch7 gives the majority of the Ch features, including Double Aptitude which ALLOWS ANY DIVINE OR ARCANE SPELL OFF ANY LIST up to level 5, including the lowest level available to any class (and if that's not utility i don't know what is).

This build has the added benefit of only needing one feat, or even zero if you can get your DM to accept Virtual Feats (from Masters of the Wild pg20) as Able Learner. Having 6 feats available for a perfectly functional build can take it in any direction.

Facto, and Skill Monkey in general, are support characters in a T1 campaign, but in any campaign with less power the above build would be quite effective. If you could get your DM to accept Opportunistic Piety as fuel for DMM it would even rock harder.

Of course Facto3/Cloistered+PrC has nutty skill/magic/combat possibilities. I play one in my campaign now.

[BowStreetRunner]

A lot of good stuff here. I am still suffering from my lack of direct experience with Psionic, Artificer, or Binder skill monkeys. Any advice along those lines would be appreciated. I also am trying to get a handle on the best way to put together a really effective 'minionmancer' skill monkey. If anyone has any specific ideas along that line I would be intrigued.