Ranged Option for Paladin

[Firechanter]

Hey Gang,

I've been thinking about Ranged options for my new Paladin of Hoar (so, Oath of Vengeance). Variant Human with Greatsword and GWM Feat.
From my previous experience with the Paladin class (only played to level 5 unfortunately), it stuck that I really sucked whenever I couldn't get into Melee range. For instance, we had to fight hordes and hordes of pesky Goblins which always managed to stay out of Melee - and trying to fight them with Javelins was a losing battle.

So, new game, new character, same potential problem. Of course I could always pick up a longbow, but my Dex is nothing to write home about (a 10), so To Hit and Damage would suck.
I'm considering to multiclass into a Cha-based caster. Especially Warlock seems mechanically appealing. I'd need 2 levels, and for that I could get a Ranged Attack for 1d10+3 at 120ft, plus two quick-charging spellslots for use with Divine Smite or Hellish Rebuke.
There's a bit of a fluff dissonance however, what with a Paladin making a Pact with an outlandish being -- but well, there may be some interesting options after all.

It's a 2 level detour from my Paladin highway. I'd probably fit it in after level 6, so there's still plenty of time to decide.
However, are there any alternative options that I may have overlooked, how to get a ranged attack with decent attack, damage and effective range, at a lower investment than 2 levels?

[Squeak]

Not AFAIK sadly. This is partially why my current Paladin is a DEX-based one - having a fallback decent ranged capacity can be quite useful. Of course you can't really go GWF/GWM with a DEX paladin so there is a definite DPS trade-off...

[Human Paragon 3]

You can toss javelins using your STR score, so that's an option. There are a few paladin spells that add to damage at range such as Branding Smite, Elemental Weapon, and Hunters Mark (Vengeance only).

[Malifice]

You could just take Magic initiate as a feat to pick up Eldritch blast. Youll also get a free hex 1/day and wont delay your Paladin progression (but miss out on agonizing blast).

Justify your warlock stuff via 'unsanctioned knowledge'.

Also (outside the square) have you considered countering mobility by increasing yours? Like taking the mobile feat, and/or dipping Rogue 2 (for cunning action bonus action dash). Anything that runs away, will only die tired. I'd be tempted to go Rogue 3 for Assasinate (You are a Vengance paladin after all).

Grab expertise in intimidate and insight (spot those lies, and scare the bejesus out of them).

Finally, you get Haste soon enough as a Vengance Pali. That also grants you a bonus action dash each round if you want it.

[Sigreid]

Spell sniper for an accurate long range cantrip is what I would do. EB, of course.

[Fighting_Ferret]

You are basically looking at thrown melee weapons, which use your str for to hit and damage, but have the downside of very short ranges.

If you are using variant human, you could go magical initiate and select 2 cantrips and a level 1 spell. Pick the casting type of your choice (warlock/sorcerer/bard) and select the appropriate ranged damage cantrip (eldricht blast/firebolt) for your casting stat (CHA). Ask your DM if the damage advance via character levels (all level add to advancing the damage dice) or class levels (only the caster levels advance the damage dice). If the answer is character levels, then you have a ranged attack that is using a priority stat, that will increase in damage as you level up.

[Citan]

You are basically looking at thrown melee weapons, which use your str for to hit and damage, but have the downside of very short ranges.

If you are using variant human, you could go magical initiate and select 2 cantrips and a level 1 spell. Pick the casting type of your choice (warlock/sorcerer/bard) and select the appropriate ranged damage cantrip (eldricht blast/firebolt) for your casting stat (CHA). Ask your DM if the damage advance via character levels (all level add to advancing the damage dice) or class levels (only the caster levels advance the damage dice). If the answer is character levels, then you have a ranged attack that is using a priority stat, that will increase in damage as you level up.
Another option would be dipping Bladelock or Eldricht Knight (better because 2 bond weapons), but ONLY if someone wanted to dip into either class for other reasons in the first place.
Bound weapon makes thrown weapons build actually pretty decent if you combine it with Sharpshooter.
It's still a melee-focused build (since you use a bonus action to recall your weapon), but you get an always available, STR-based ranged weapon magical attack. :)
Pretty niche though.

[jkat718]

Ask your DM if the damage advance via character levels (all level add to advancing the damage dice) or class levels (only the caster levels advance the damage dice).

In order to back up an argument for scaling by character level, you could refer to the Sage Advice:

CANTRIPS

If a character has levels in more than one class, dothe character’s cantrips scale with character level or
with the level in a spellcasting class? Cantrips scale with
character level. For example, a barbarian 2 / cleric 3 casts
sacred flame as a 5th-level character.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, I think it is consensus in our group that it would scale by character level.

First off, do know that the game has already begun and we've had our first trial by fire, so it would be rather bad form if I retroactively changed my character now. I'm quite happy with my GWM feat, and would be loth to invest so much of my 1st-level resources into a secondary mode of attack.

Well, at level 5 I can cast Find Steed. The outdoor mobility bestowed by such a noble warhorse should - hopefully - already do the trick. And indoors -- dungeons and the like -- range should rarely be a big deal. So I'm hoping to never being actually forced to multiclass to get a Ranged Attack.

Eldritch Knight doesn't seem to be a good deal for this purpose because my Int is 10 (my total starting stats are 16 10 14 10 10 16). The increasing number of rays may be a redeeming quality, but since I'd also need 3 levels, it seems to me that 2 levels of Warlock would give more bang for the buck, being more stat-friendly and all.

Spending a feat on Magical Initiate: that might be interesting. One could grab a Cantrip off a Cha-casting list, which is much more appealing than being relegated to Int. The To-Hit would be decent, and the damage reasonable enough with increasing levels.
However, if we think about investing Feats, Sharpshooter and a stack of Javelins would yield even better To Hit, and for most of the game considerably better damage (1d6+4ish vs 1d10+0).

Interesting idea about the EK using Weapon Bond to summon back a Thrown weapon into his hand. I'll keep that in mind for when I actually play an EK one day. =)

[KorvinStarmast]

Then again, there's the Vengeance Paladin's occasional ranged attack ... Misty Step. 1 bonus action Components: V Duration: Instantaneous


.... teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see. We note that javelin longest range before attack at disadvantage begins is ... 30'. Extreme range is 120' but you are attacking at disadvantage.
Javelin 1d6 piercing Thrown (range 30/120)

As it's a spell, it is of limited application, but the nice thing is that you get all of your attacks and smites when you arrive at your target's location. Heh Heh.

How many Javelins does it take to replicate Divine Smite, damage wise?

I wish that Misty Step would get an additional 5 or 10 feet with each level above 2d that was used for the spell, but I am not sure if WoTC and game testers looked into that, or maybe that did and decided that such would be a bit much for a second level spell.

Second Thought:

If you go Magical Initiate, your Char score is your spell score for DC. Don't worry about Wis or Char boost for damage from Sacred Flame. (You could also use Bard's Vicious Mockery to do psychic damage AND cause a blown save to give the monster disadvantage. That makes his job of hitting you harder as well. Not a lot of damage, however)

Sacred Flame Range: 60' (radiant dmg, not resisted by many things)

Dex save(target) or 1d8 radiant damage.
The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw. That's kind of handy.

Damage at 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

No roll to hit, but the Dex save makes for an equivalent of a "to hit" so that it's not autodamage.

[bid]

Don't worry about Wis or Char boost for damage from Sacred Flame.
Sacred flame is cleric only, you have to use Wis.

You must pick bard or sorcerer as your magic initiate class if you want to use your Cha score.

[Malifice]

However, if we think about investing Feats, Sharpshooter and a stack of Javelins would yield even better To Hit, and for most of the game considerably better damage (1d6+4ish vs 1d10+0).

You throw 2 javelins as a pali.

You have 4 bolts with EB (adding hunters mark/ hex damage to each)

[JoeJ]

A thrown hand axe does as much damage as a javelin, but they're light so you can use TWF to gain an extra attack. And I'd think a bandolier of hand axes would be easier to walk around with than a bunch of javelins.

[coredump]

Nah, skip all that. Instead get something like Winged Boots, or start using Misty Step. Get yourself into melee range faster...

[Malifice]

Nah, skip all that. Instead get something like Winged Boots, or start using Misty Step. Get yourself into melee range faster...

Yeah, that's how I would go personally.

Ranged weapons should be (on a paladin) an absolute last resort.

[djreynolds]

I thought javelins are now considered ranged melee attacks, and so theoretically you can smite with them now? My ranged option is dipping rogue for cunny action and abusing dash. But elemental weapon and bless can help out. Misty step is awesome.

[JoeJ]

Nah, skip all that. Instead get something like Winged Boots, or start using Misty Step. Get yourself into melee range faster...

That would be optimal, but I still think that every character should have at least some way to attack at range and some way to attack in melee because sometimes your preferred tactic just won't work.

[rollingForInit]

I took Magic Initiate as the variant human feat for my paladin. Grabbed Fire Bolt and Light as cantrips, and Shield as the spell (Sorcerer list). Decent fallback for ranged damage, Light is always useful for a human, and Shield can be a once-in-a-day life saver.

[Fighting_Ferret]

A backup ranged weapon or a feat can always be counted on, more so than getting a particular magical item in any campaign.

Casting a spell is a viable option (Misty step) but it does use a level 2 slot and is limited to teleporting you to an area 30 feet away that you can see.

[KorvinStarmast]

Casting a spell is a viable option (Misty step) but it does use a level 2 slot and is limited to teleporting you to an area 30 feet away that you can see.
I already mentioned that in my post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19897339&postcount=10).
The advantage is that upon arrival, the burst of damage is a bit more than a jav or three. The limitation in range is an issue, for sure, depending upon how far you want to be able to reach with a ranged attack, but the 30 range of a jav (for not attacking at disadvantage) is the same as the range of Misty Step.

I agree with your point about "counting on" a magical item.

@bid: I'll go look at Magic Initiate again, thanks for pointing that out. :smallcool:

[bid]

I'll go look at Magic Initiate again, thanks for pointing that out. :smallcool:
You're very welcome.:smallcool:

[djreynolds]

Cast bless on the ranger and let them come to you, and allow him to shine.

A one level dip in fighter gains archery style, but cheesy some would say.

Your real range option is closing the distance with haste or racial misty step.

[Longcat]

How many levels are you willing to multiclass?

If it's 2 or less, go with Warlock. Stat friendly, great range and scales without further investment. I would not choose Magic Initiate, as you lose out on +Cha to damage.

If you're willing to multiclass 6 or more levels, Sorcerer becomes a potent option. Pick up Quicken in order to buff as a Bonus Action, e.g. Mirror Image, Fly or Haste. You also get great defensive options such as Shield.

[Mara]

Javelins seen like the way to go. If you use GWM then disadvantage on 120ft throws should still be doable.

[Blood of Gaea]

Ah that's easy, dip 3 Warlock for Eldritch Blast, then just use that.

For a more fun option, get Tavern Brawler, then throw everything you can get your hands on, including your weapons.

And as a side note, 11+ Paladins with Tavern Brawler can do 1d4+STR+1d8 Radiant without using a smite, so you can always throw your weapon, and still deal damage. This is of course even better as an Oathbreaker.

[bid]

And as a side note, 11+ Paladins with Tavern Brawler can do 1d4+STR+1d8 Radiant without using a smite, so you can always throw your weapon, and still deal damage. This is of course even better as an Oathbreaker.
And even without Tavern Brawler you do 1 + STR + 1d8 radiant.

[Blood of Gaea]

And even without Tavern Brawler you do 1 + STR + 1d8 radiant.

Yeah, but Tavern Brawler gives you proficiency with your fists... And pretty much anything else you can find that could conceivably be a weapon.

[bid]

Yeah, but Tavern Brawler gives you proficiency with your fists... And pretty much anything else you can find that could conceivably be a weapon.
Errata: "Tavern Brawler (p. 170). The feat doesn’t give you proficiency with unarmed strikes, since you’re already proficient."

[Blood of Gaea]

Errata: "Tavern Brawler (p. 170). The feat doesn’t give you proficiency with unarmed strikes, since you’re already proficient."

I hadn't seen that, thanks.