Timing of a Cleric Dip for Wizard

[CoggieRagabash]

Long story short: Between adventures, players in our group are being allowed to 'rebuild' our characters since we are all first-time D&D players and many of us made questionable choices the first time around. In my case, I had some fun being a high elf wild magic sorcerer, but ultimately was frustrated at my lack of options. Metamagic was a nice toy, but a limited number of spells known left me feeling a little trapped. So the GM and I agreed that it's fully within reason that my character, being of a scholarly bent to begin with, managed to with study and practice lock her spells down and become a Wizard for gameplay purposes.

So I've read a lot about building a wizard, and a common suggestion I see is to take a level of cleric, and I admit a level of knowledge domain cleric would be thematically appropriate for my character and surely offer some utility. I can't complain about some well-deserved expertise in Arcana and History, a few extra cantrips, a handy couple of spells and the ability to tromp around in breastplate with a shield for some decent AC so long as I take War Caster. (My character was, by far, the character taken down to 0 hp most in the first campaign; even with my best efforts to stand back and take cover, something about a mage drew attention...)

The problem I'm having is this, though: I'll be starting at fifth level again, and if I'm taking a level of cleric, that means my wizard level will be four, and I won't have any third level spells until we clear the way to six. And, well, crossing between 'has no third level spells' and 'has third level spells' was an absolute game-changer in how my character played the first time. Even if it was only fireball, it was absolutely a different level.

So I guess the question is: is there a time when taking a level dip isn't painful? Is it really worth it to be a level behind as far as learning spells goes, especially compared to the full cleric that will be in the party? I'm sure there isn't a strictly right or wrong answer on this, but I'm glad to hear any advice or experience you have on the impact it makes.

[SharkForce]

there will never be a time when dipping is not painful for a wizard. there's always something to look forward to.

personally, i like first and 11th level to be cleric levels if i'm dipping (once you've dipped the first, the second is slightly less bad). remember, you'll still have the spell slot, so while you don't get fireball, you can still cast, say, shatter in a level 3 spell slot.

[CoggieRagabash]

there will never be a time when dipping is not painful for a wizard. there's always something to look forward to.

personally, i like first and 11th level to be cleric levels if i'm dipping (once you've dipped the first, the second is slightly less bad). remember, you'll still have the spell slot, so while you don't get fireball, you can still cast, say, shatter in a level 3 spell slot.

True, true, thank you for the reminder on that part. I will never be behind on slots, just spells known, so I can use that to power up what I have instead. Not quite so flashy but I think I've had enough being flashy. Flashy gets me targeted. :smalltongue:

Guess I just have to decide if that cleric utility is really worth it when I'm already bringing a lot of utility now just by being a wizard chock full of spells and sweet spell book ritual casts.

[omniknight]

I've played a Wizard that dipped Cleric for Level 1 who is now Character Level 5 (so Cleric 1 / Wizard 4), and I can say for sure that CL5 hurts the most so far. Everyone else in the party that singled-classed, especially the martial classes, got a big boost in power at level 5 with Extra Attack, etc. Not being able to cast Fireball yet really sucks. But, when I consider how front-loaded the benefits are for dipping Cleric at level 1 over a Wizard I don't regret the decision.

Cleric 1 provides objectively better Proficiencies, HD, and Saving Throws (Charisma is a dump stat so Proficiency bonus to CHA ST helps more than +INT ST) than Wizard 1 does. Cleric 1 + Wizard 1 means at CL2 I had 4 extra cantrips and 4 extra L1 spells that don't count against Wizard's prepared total than I would have at Wizard 2. I have the highest normal AC of the party (18, which can become 23 with Shield), a "mini-AoE" at-will spell attack in the form of Chill Touch buffed by the Cleric's Death Domain, and still have full spellcaster spell slots.

Personally, if I were making a CL5 Cleric/Wizard from the get-go, I'd still go Cleric 1 / Wizard 4 despite the ongoing one level delay to spell levels. It's going to hurt regardless of where you start, but you get the biggest overall benefit if you pick up Cleric 1 at 1st level.

[MaxWilson]

I hate clerics for RP-related reasons and refuse to play them, but if I did play them I'd find Life Cleric 1, then Wizard X an exceptionally tempting build. Sure, at 5th level I won't have Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern, but I will have:

* Bonus Action Shield of Faith/Sanctuary (Dodge-Compatible)
* AC 20, which synergizes really well with all the defensive wizard spells like Shield and Blur
* Bless for party-buffing
* Supercharged Cure Wounds/Healing Word
* All the normal wizard stuff, and full 5th level cantrips and 3rd level slots.

It's pretty hard to think of many scenarios where I'd actually want Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern more than everything on that list above, especially with how easy 5E encounters are by DMG guidelines. Let's say we're fighting 17 gnoll warriors, a Gnoll Fang of Yeenoghu, and 2 Gnoll Pack Lords. There's two ways that fight could go down:

1.) Gnolls clump up and try to swarm us in melee.
2.) Gnolls disperse and try to kill us with longbows.

In scenario #2, Fireball has very little utility at all, and I'm glad to have my AC 20 while I kill the enemy to death with Fire Bolt and Acid Splash (or maybe just Dodging) while holding Bless on the whole party.

In scenario #1, Fireball would do the job with 28 points of damage, if they're clumped up, Web isn't too shabby either, and neither is Shatter. With five times as many gnolls as PCs it could get dicey, but every time I've actually seen this kind of scenario play out, the sticky Web/Evard's Black Tentacles/etc. totally scrambles the enemy formation to the point where it isn't half as difficult as it sounds like it should be. Fireball would radically simplify this scenario, probably burning up at least half of the gnolls outright and shattering their morale--but I think it's winnable without, especially if someone else in the party does have full 3rd level spells (e.g. Moon Druid does Conjure Animals to finish off all the gnolls I have Webbed). And frankly, I wouldn't actually expect the gnolls to choose option #1 anyway, because it is such poor tactics.

Against anything but this huge mob of gnolls I probably wouldn't even bother to Fireball.

Sacrificing a generally superior build just on the off-chance that I might run into a huge mob of tactically-unaware gnolls exactly as the party hits level 5 just doesn't seem the kind of tradeoff I'd want to make.

Note that you don't even really have to spend anything on Str in order to wear full plate, if you don't want to. You could technically have Str 6 and wear full plate. It would bring your movement rate down to 20', but you can either ride a horse or Longstrider yourself right back up to 30' movement. I wouldn't actually do that any more than I would play a cleric, because it strikes me as ludicrous on a RP level, but technically you could and perhaps someone other than myself would.

[bid]

and I admit a level of knowledge domain cleric would be thematically appropriate for my character and surely offer some utility.
There you go: RP first.

[SharkForce]

actually, as relates to strength for full plate... i'm quite fond of the idea of a hill dwarf wizard (screw mountain dwarf, proficiency in medium armour isn't that rare and i want my shield dangit) multiclassed into cleric for 1-2 levels (as with the OP, i feel like knowledge makes more sense for a wizard, but the full plate argument only really comes into play if you go something like life or nature or war).

as an added benefit, hill dwarf adds to wisdom (so you can start with slightly lower wisdom and still be allowed to multiclass), bonus hit points (who doesn't like bonus hit points?), and keeps most of the best parts of being a dwarf (poison resistance, +2 con, darkvision, not slowed by armour).

it certainly isn't the only option for a wizard/cleric multiclass, but i do really feel like it fits well. no int bonus, but you can get by with a lower int bonus for a few levels... maxed int isn't ridiculously OP until level 17, or maybe as early as level 11.

[djreynolds]

You no longer need a weapon as a wizard, you have unlimited cantrips. You need dexterity for saves though, strength for saves and so you don't get shoved. A shield is +2, the shield spell is reaction to add +5.

I started a thread about eldritch knight multiclass. 17 wizard, 3 eldritch knight is one I was thinking of. But what's the point, I'm just wasting time there for plate armor.

With mountain dwarf you get medium armor, take that +2 and throw it your dumped strength for 10. +2 in con, good. You don't need weapons you have cantrips. You have medium armor. Now mage armor is a 13 plus dex, not much of a change or difference with medium armor.

What you really want is a real shield, and not waste a spell on "shield"? And to go weapon-less and not worry about war caster for now, because you have cantrips.

So knowledge cleric will give you a shield and medium armor and expertise in two intelligence based skills. Elf gives you good stuff, as does the hill dwarf, bonus in wisdom. One level. But you will lose fireball til 6th level, or counterspell, or gaseous form, or lightning bolt, etc.

I'm currently playing a mountain dwarf abjuration wizard, I had no real offensive spells and we paid for it. My intelligence is lower than it should be affecting my cantrip to hit number. I had to beg the DM to have a merchant stumble along and sell me some scrolls to learn. But until that point I was missing with cantrips and hasting warriors. I could've been launching fireballs or lighting bolts or acid arrows in 3rd level spell slot.

You an elf, you have a high dexterity score. You have mage armor and access to the shield spell, if prepared, as a reaction. You should have tanks to protect you. Losing that 3rd level spell will hurt. Survive this period of time, and you may find you don't need armor after all.

[CoggieRagabash]

I hadn't noticed this thread got resurrected until today, so I just wanted to thank you all for the input - on whether or not to take the dip at all, and on biting the bullet.


Cleric 1 provides objectively better Proficiencies, HD, and Saving Throws (Charisma is a dump stat so Proficiency bonus to CHA ST helps more than +INT ST) than Wizard 1 does. Cleric 1 + Wizard 1 means at CL2 I had 4 extra cantrips and 4 extra L1 spells that don't count against Wizard's prepared total than I would have at Wizard 2. I have the highest normal AC of the party (18, which can become 23 with Shield), a "mini-AoE" at-will spell attack in the form of Chill Touch buffed by the Cleric's Death Domain, and still have full spellcaster spell slots.

Personally, if I were making a CL5 Cleric/Wizard from the get-go, I'd still go Cleric 1 / Wizard 4 despite the ongoing one level delay to spell levels. It's going to hurt regardless of where you start, but you get the biggest overall benefit if you pick up Cleric 1 at 1st level.

Thank you for sharing your experience! I haven't yet decided if the first level will be cleric or wizard yet (cleric offers charisma save and a proficiency in all simple weapons, but neither is something I'm terribly married to; wizard would give me access to Investigation as a proficiency, which is more of a sticking point), but I'll take this into consideration. But I agree that there's a lot to be gained - proficiency with expertise on two new skills, two more languages, three cantrips, bless (complementing the existing cleric's bless; the entire party of 6 can be blessed at once on the cheap!), identify auto-prepared, another 1st level cleric spell for utility's sake, a couple more spells for wizard freed up (since I won't need to take Mage Armor or Identify), and of course the big boost to AC. It's a sweet deal.


It's pretty hard to think of many scenarios where I'd actually want Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern more than everything on that list above, especially with how easy 5E encounters are by DMG guidelines.

Honestly I only have half a level to go until I get them anyway, so it won't be that far off. I'll have plenty of spells at my disposal and have plenty of opportunity to cast them with higher level slots in the meantime.


Note that you don't even really have to spend anything on Str in order to wear full plate, if you don't want to. You could technically have Str 6 and wear full plate. It would bring your movement rate down to 20', but you can either ride a horse or Longstrider yourself right back up to 30' movement. I wouldn't actually do that any more than I would play a cleric, because it strikes me as ludicrous on a RP level, but technically you could and perhaps someone other than myself would.

Yeah, I have her strength at an 8 as it is. But Knowledge is the domain I'm interested in, so I'm stuck at medium armor. It'll be enough of a boost on its own, and also difficult enough to explain on its own. Why, in finding high-elven knowledge Jesus, she suddenly realized she should be wearing more armor, that's one of the issues I'm struggling to explain. (It has also single-handedly made it impossible to find art to use for her, necessitating drawing on my part.)


There you go: RP first.

I will admit that my initial interest was for systems reasons and wanting my character to survive and be effective at things I imagine her being able to do, but since thinking about the implications to her development as a character it's a really great move and I'm excited for it on its own merits now.


You an elf, you have a high dexterity score. You have mage armor and access to the shield spell, if prepared, as a reaction. You should have tanks to protect you. Losing that 3rd level spell will hurt. Survive this period of time, and you may find you don't need armor after all.

Yeah, I didn't quite manage to get my elf killed yet. I did have a fair dexterity score at 16, but Mage Armor only got me up to a DC of 16 and was a nasty spell tax. And while there was a beefy polearm master / sentinel fighter up front and a surprisingly effective monk off-tank, there's a lot of ranged enemies out there and they apparently take a lot of offense to a mage being on the battlefield.

I recognize that having to wait a little longer to get my third level spells is going to hurt, but I've got some nice utility coming from it and it should be an interesting direction for the character, so I think I will go for it. I can limp by with Scorching Ray or Shatter until Fireball comes my way. And I have an excuse already built in for why my character can't cast the Fireball that seemed to define her in her latter adventures as a sorceress, so it shouldn't be too terribly awkward! Fortunately I am not only starting with adequate int at level one (15+1 from high elf), but also due to a particularly kind blessing from the loot tables my elf wound up with a Headband of Intellect. I'm fairly set for now and can even afford to take Resilient (Con) at level four instead of an ASI.

[djreynolds]

Cantrips are a roll, and rolls can fail. Fireball and lightning do not. Save is half, resistance is half, both are 1/4 damage. But you still damaging them and whoever is close enough.

Now last game we fought a demon and my lightning bolt did nothing to him, he had resistance to lightning (you figured as the wizard I remember that) and passed his save and he took 1/4 damage. 8 points. But his two servants were close enough on the battle mat that they took damage, they passed their save and took 16 each.

So next round I cast haste on my barbarian tank. He fixed it.

Later after a long rest, we couldn't reach the other side of chasm, Gaseous form took care of that.

My point is, your spells are your power. A Lightning bolt streaks out damaging everyone in the line. A fireball is even better. Dispel magic and counter-spell.

Casters get more and more powerful. Wizards have ritual spells. Utility spells that can do whatever the rogue does and allows him to focus on killing. Invisibility on rogues is sweet. Shield spell is +5 and can be used as a reaction to an attack. If your tanks can't hold the line, then cast haste on one of them and get back to casting.

I have a mountain dwarf abjuror and his armor class is 15. Not bad, but a dexterous elf with mage armor is easily the same. Good enough.

Why are you dipping cleric? Armor? Because they have bracers of armor? Why not monk or barbarian then for unarmored defense? Why not eldritch Knight? Why?

Because the party needs those spells. Every level wasted are spells wasted.

[omniknight]

Cantrips are a roll, and rolls can fail. Fireball and lightning do not. Save is half, resistance is half, both are 1/4 damage. But you still damaging them and whoever is close enough.

That's all true, but you are ignoring the fact that non-cantrip spells are limited to X per day. If the DM is dishing out an appropriate number and strength of encounters per day, it is safe to assume the Wizard's spell slots of all levels will be taxed. A fireball might not always be available. Cantrips, on the other hand, are a Wizard's "auto-attack" and it behooves every Wizard to have at least one go to offensive cantrip. If that cantrip can be buffed in some reasonable way, all the better. One very effective way is Death Domain Cleric + Chill Touch.


Why are you dipping cleric? Armor? Because they have bracers of armor? Why not monk or barbarian then for unarmored defense? Why not eldritch Knight? Why?

As explained above, Cleric 1 is better than Wizard 1 in pretty much every statistical aspect. Cleric 1 + Wizard 1 is superior to Wizard 2 in number of cantrips, number of L1 spells known/prepared, normalized AC, HP, etc. AC provided by medium armor rather than Mage Armor frees up one or two L1 spell slot uses per day, frees up a prepared spell, and is just straight up better AC overall.

Regarding martial classes, they do not provide nearly the same amount of benefits that a one level dip into Cleric does. No other class does, really. Cleric 1 is extremely front loaded considering its full spellcasting (cantrips+L1 spells+full spell slots), armor/weapon proficiencies, and Domain benefits. To get to the serious benefits of martial classes you've got to invest at least two levels into them, which is really delaying spell power too much relative to the types of encounters you should be facing. Cleric 1/Wizard X has the same spellcasting character level as Wizard X+1 and therefore has the same number of spell slots and the same spellcasting level-based buff to damage cantrips. Martial 2 / Wizard X is too little benefit for too much spellcasting delay or outright sacrifice, in my opinion.


Because the party needs those spells. Every level wasted are spells wasted.

Being one level behind the curve in terms of spell power is probably most noticeable on CL 5 (Cleric 1 / Wizard 4), CL 7 (Cleric 1 / Wizard 6), and CL 9 (Cleric 1 / Wizard 8) when the Wizard would normally get 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells. Since the power of spells jumps so dramatically at those levels and overall the Wizard still has relatively few tools at his disposal the one level delay hurts. But before and after that four level gap, Cleric 1 really shines. Thinking long term, Cleric 1 provides vastly more benefits than the lackluster level 20 Wizard capstone, and you get to enjoy the benefits the entire time.

Given the above, the pros really outweigh the cons in my opinion. I've been enjoying my Cleric / Wizard and just hit Cleric 1 / Wizard 4. Right now the lack of Fireball sucks, but I know I'll get it shortly while also keeping in mind all of the nice things Cleric 1 has already provided.

[djreynolds]

I agree with your statement. Cleric is a great dip and fighter is as well for plate and con saves and strength saves, no one likes getting shoved around. Barbarian is nice to for unarmored casters and so is monk.

But knowledge Cleric is sweet, in terms of spells, cantrips, armor, and expertise.

The rub of it is though, just when you are getting your new spells as a wizard, every bad guy is getting more powerful. And its always seems to be just as those levels

If you are dipping, level one. If only because it will save spell slots that are devoted to mage armor and such and its nice to "know" everything as a wizard and he get's a shield, whereas, my mountain dwarf abjuror does not for some reason.

[omniknight]

Barbarian is nice to for unarmored casters and so is monk.

Eh, I personally would never dip into any martial class as a Wizard because of the loss of spellcasting levels. Barbarian and Monk also don't really give you anything that augments what your Wizard naturally wants to do, which is cast spells from afar.


But knowledge Cleric is sweet, in terms of spells, cantrips, armor, and expertise.

Agreed, the Knowledge Domain is very good and probably is my second choice for Cleric 1 dips as a utility Wizard. It doesn't give you anything in the way of cantrips but the L1 spells are better than Death's and the two bonus Proficiency+Expertise in knowledge-type skills are really nice, even if knowledge-type skills aren't as useful as they were in 3.X. The extra languages are meh but not unwelcome.

Still, though, the consistent relevancy of Chill Touch targeting two enemies from Death Domain is hard to beat. I find it immensely useful and practically doubles my normal DPR since I don't have many spell slots yet to regularly sling non-cantrip spells around. Also, a minor ding to Identify being a Domain spell is that I normally would not want to use a prepared spell slot for it as a Ritual spell. That said, Knowledge is still a close second.


The rub of it is though, just when you are getting your new spells as a wizard, every bad guy is getting more powerful. And its always seems to be just as those levels

That's only true for one level at a time, though. And I think it is only really noticeable at lower levels when the Cleric 1 / Wizard X does not yet have many spells and spell slots overall.


If you are dipping, level one. If only because it will save spell slots that are devoted to mage armor and such and its nice to "know" everything as a wizard and he get's a shield, whereas, my mountain dwarf abjuror does not for some reason.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here but as I explained above I'm not dipping Cleric 1 only to save spell slots. That is merely one factor in considering the many benefits of Cleric 1.

[djreynolds]

I agree with the cleric dip, and the most important part for me, in my humble opinion is armor. Having armor saves spells from being casted as mage armor or even being prepared. Armor saves spells. Everything else is just gravy. It is the best dip.

Yes dip cleric level 1, it will pay off big and you should be able to survive it.

But for dexterity based wizard, such as an elf, I say dip monk or barbarian to go along with your mage as this may save spells.

Great post.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd only go knowledge cleric if the GM makes knowledge skills useful. If you roll non-natural 20 (that is, 20 after modifiers) on a monster lore check and all he gives you is a description of its appearance plus "it's a fearsome/vicious predator", then don't even bother. You might as well pick Life domain and squeeze a little more healing out of your Healing Word spell.

Otherwise, dipping cleric is good. Pre-buff AC of 17-18, healing word, and other stuff. Only downsides are the hit your progression takes, and that the multiclass requires both int and wisdom 13 or higher.

[omniknight]

I'd only go knowledge cleric if the GM makes knowledge skills useful. If you roll non-natural 20 (that is, 20 after modifiers) on a monster lore check and all he gives you is a description of its appearance plus "it's a fearsome/vicious predator", then don't even bother. You might as well pick Life domain and squeeze a little more healing out of your Healing Word spell.

Otherwise, dipping cleric is good. Pre-buff AC of 17-18, healing word, and other stuff. Only downsides are the hit your progression takes, and that the multiclass requires both int and wisdom 13 or higher.

Considering how infrequent you want to spend spell slots on healing as a Wizard, I feel Life is a waste. The bonus is really minor beyond level 1 (typically +3 HP per cast). I'd rather go Death or Knowledge which will be used frequently since they are non-X/day passive bonuses to common Wizard actions or checks.

I skipped Healing Word and only got Cure Wounds. For those rare times when I actually need to heal someone else inside of combat, I have my familiar deliver Cure Wounds for me :smallcool: