Homebrewing "Eldritch Knights" for Druid instead of Wizard

[This be Richard]

Okay, this might be a fantastically stupid idea, but. Here goes.

I have a player who wants to play a Fighter, but wants it to be a druidy fighter. I suggested Magic Initiate: Druid as a way to pick up a touch of druidic flavor while still playing a fighter, but it doesn't seem to be enough. Meanwhile, multiclassing druid and fighter doesn't seem like a great plan. So now I'm contemplating the potentially-even-worse plan of trying to figure out a way to let the player take the Eldritch Knight subclass, but choosing from the Druid spell list instead of the Wizard spell list (and using Wisdom instead of Intelligence as a casting ability).

Is this a completely terrible plan?
If it isn't a completely terrible plan, do you have any suggestions about how to best go about it? One thing that particularly concerns me is the Evocation/Abjuration limitation on spell selection and how best to translate that to the druid spell list.
If it is a completely terrible plan, do you have any ideas about what I could do instead?

[georgie_leech]

Is there something in particular they're looking for that isn't covered by Ranger? Not all of their spells have to do with archery.

[Daishain]

Wizard spell list is notably better than the Druid one, based on that alone I would not consider this to be a no go in terms of balance.

The main point of contention is the restrictions on spell selection. Limiting all but a few of the EK's spells to be from evocation and abjuration is painful enough normally. If I remember correctly, The druidic selection of such spells is even worse. I strongly suggest picking two schools that won't cripple his choices, or even just forgetting about the restrictions.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Wisdom is better than Intelligence, generally, so that's a small buff to the EK. But I'm not sure what this class would accomplish that isn't already covered by either Paladin or Ranger.

[This be Richard]

Is there something in particular they're looking for that isn't covered by Ranger? Not all of their spells have to do with archery.
The Ranger spell list would fly, I think, but Ranger still doesn't seem to be quite what the player is looking for. I think it's partly a flavor thing and partly an approach-to-combat thing. And I know she wanted to wield a pike, which is much more of a fighter weapon than a ranger weapon.
The player has described her concept to me as a retired-from-the-army farmer with an affinity with plants and a small array of spells she's picked up to help grow crops... but what's been described in terms of the spells she wants to have goes a bit beyond just growing better crops. She wants to manipulate plants: "bark and thorns;" "tripping and gripping vines;" "bloom and wither."
We've talked in a few circles around the subject, but we've come back to Eldritch Knight a few times now, so I'm giving a serious look to doing a bit of homebrew to accommodate.


Wizard spell list is notably better than the Druid one, based on that alone I would not consider this to be a no go in terms of balance.

The main point of contention is the restrictions on spell selection. Limiting all but a few of the EK's spells to be from evocation and abjuration is painful enough normally. If I remember correctly, The druidic selection of such spells is even worse. I strongly suggest picking two schools that won't cripple his choices, or even just forgetting about the restrictions.
I really have no idea what school I'd want to pick, but I'm a little concerned about forgetting about the restrictions entirely. Do you really think that druid spells are sufficiently more limited than wizard spells that it wouldn't be a problem? It'd be a really simple adjustment if so.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

On the druid's list, it seems that Transmutation (Buffs, utility, some healing), Evocation (Healing, damage, control) and Conjuration (Control, summons, some damage & utility) are the strongest schools.

[Daishain]

Wisdom is better than Intelligence, generally, so that's a small buff to the EK. But I'm not sure what this class would accomplish that isn't already covered by either Paladin or Ranger.
If you want to generalize it into 'fighty class that uses divine magic', then there really isn't anything. But a character and class are much more than what you can fit into a six word sentence. Can you claim that either a paladin or a ranger would have the same capabilities or feel during play as an EK, regardless of what spell list they draw from? If no, can you claim that a player definitely won't care about the differences from a mechanical and/or fluff perspective?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I'm not interested in an argument. I wanted to know what the player is hoping to accomplish that isn't already feasible with an Oath of the Ancients Paladin or a Ranger.

[Daishain]

I really have no idea what school I'd want to pick, but I'm a little concerned about forgetting about the restrictions entirely. Do you really think that druid spells are sufficiently more limited than wizard spells that it wouldn't be a problem? It'd be a really simple adjustment if so.
Do I think so? Actually yes.

The number of spell choices the default EK gets are limiting enough that the school restrictions feel like rubbing salt into the wound. I already feel inclined to eliminate the school restrictions when picking from the Wizard list as a result. Shifting to the Druid list would be to some degree the last straw.

Bear in mind, this is coming from a DM who tends to encourage options over restrictions and is a little more generous with such rules changes than many others.

[Knaight]

This sounds entirely reasonable to me, and like a cool concept. Using the Transmutation and Conjuration schools (at least most of them) wouldn't be unbalanced, and there's a definite distinction between the Druidic Knight and the Ranger.

[user_unknown]

Possibly a crazy idea, but if they want a nature-y fighter, how about nature domain cleric (possibly fighter multiclass)? They get heavy armor, plus some of the druid plant growth etc. spells as domain spells, plus can take a druid cantrip.

[Ruslan]

Just opening up the entire Druid list seems fine.

[This be Richard]

Alright! I think I'm going to go for it. I'm going to go with Conjuration and Transmutation, if anyone's curious. Hopefully it'll all go smoothly. And, even if we could have gotten by with the Ranger or Ancients Paladin, this will make my player happier, so it's all to the good as long as it doesn't break game balance.

Thanks for your help!

[MrStabby]

Yeah, I think it should be fine. Th wizard gets spells like shield, blur, mirror image that are pretty great on a fighter chassis. Druid does get some good stuff but overall I think its weaker. Yes the list is strong but often more due to higher level spell slots.

[Kane0]

Just let him pick the standard EK spells known from the entire druid spell list. It won't be OP since he can't swap them each day and he still has a very limited progression. The standard EK can pick from the entire list every now and again anyway.

[Mara]

I'd say let her prep spells from the druid list, but progess down it like an EK. The expanded extra spells that normal EKs get could be ranger spells instead. Leave the rest unchanged.

[djreynolds]

Oath of Ancients is the druidic knight. Strength based rangers are awesome with horde breaker, polearm master, and sentinel.

Land druid is cool. But an elemental monk with nature cleric could fit the bill as an druidic knight.

[mephnick]

A little off topic, but do you guys think there'd be any major balance issues with allow an EK to choose any wizard schools?

Seems stupid that I can't play an illusion-based EK or something of that nature.

[Daishain]

A little off topic, but do you guys think there'd be any major balance issues with allow an EK to choose any wizard schools?

Major issues, no. Spell slot progression and limited number of spells do a nice job of limiting caster potential already.

I do think that simply doing away with the restriction entirely may not be the best idea however. I've been toying with the idea of letting the EK pick their two schools, one of which must be evo or abj.

[mephnick]

Mostly I've always pictured mage-knights as focusing on enhancement and defensive powers, not flinging fireballs. Abjuration works, but I'd much rather have Transmutation or Illusion instead of Evocation. Casting blur, enlarge, or longstrider seems a lot cooler to me for a melee character than scorching ray.

[This be Richard]

Okay, I am potentially overcomplicating things by considering further homebrew.

From another thread:

Also, EK is built around blasting with cantrip more than often when he can't get in melee, and with War Magic, cast a cantrip and still make a melee attack. Offensive divine cantrip are fewer. It may still work to just change the spell list to cleric/druid, but you won't get as much mileage out of it as an EK would, hence the reason for this homebrew.

As I said in that thread, the cantrip thing is what makes me the most nervous. The player's using Thorn Whip as her offensive cantrip, and it just doesn't pack the same kind of punch -- or range -- she'd get off of a Firebolt or even a Ray of Frost. I have a hard time imagining that War Magic will be competitive with just going on a full attack in any but the rarest of circumstances.

So now I find myself considering different features.
Is War Magic still essential to the subclass, do you think, even though the available cantrips don't play nearly as well with it?
Would I be better off borrowing some of the Land druid's stuff -- like Land's Stride -- and giving them those instead?
Or am I just overcomplicating things and it'll probably be fine as it is?

[georgie_leech]

Do note that even if it isn't as much Range, Thorn Whip still gives a bit of control, and can let them do cool things like snag someone with TW, pull them in, then impale them on their weapon.

[Daishain]

Okay, I am potentially overcomplicating things by considering further homebrew.

From another thread:


As I said in that thread, the cantrip thing is what makes me the most nervous. The player's using Thorn Whip as her offensive cantrip, and it just doesn't pack the same kind of punch -- or range -- she'd get off of a Firebolt or even a Ray of Frost. I have a hard time imagining that War Magic will be competitive with just going on a full attack in any but the rarest of circumstances.

So now I find myself considering different features.
Is War Magic still essential to the subclass, do you think, even though the available cantrips don't play nearly as well with it?
Would I be better off borrowing some of the Land druid's stuff -- like Land's Stride -- and giving them those instead?
Or am I just overcomplicating things and it'll probably be fine as it is?
War Magic isn't competitive with a fighter's multiple attacks even with firebolt. It is probably the EK's weakest feature.

Take an L20 greatsword EK with 20 Str. No magic items, feats, multiclassing, tricks, or shenanigans for extra attacks or damage (most such shenanigans would benefit the GS more anyways). Assuming all attacks hit (and the cantrip probably will miss more due to casting stat being lower priority and the disadvantage from being in melee range), he has a choice between doing 8d6+20 (48 average) with the greatsword, or at the cost of his bonus action dealing 4d10+2d6+5 (34 average) with Firebolt and war magic. Unless you have good reason to be casting the firebolt anyways, it is a really bad option. Something like Thorn Whip does even worse in the damage comparison, though the rider effect may come in handy.

Someone on these forums once suggested letting the EK replace one of his multiple attacks with the cantrip, but that ends up being too strong in the other direction at high levels.

[DanyBallon]

War Magic isn't competitive with a fighter's multiple attacks even with firebolt. It is probably the EK's weakest feature.

Take an L20 greatsword EK with 20 Str. No magic items, feats, multiclassing, tricks, or shenanigans for extra attacks or damage (most such shenanigans would benefit the GS more anyways). Assuming all attacks hit (and the cantrip probably will miss more due to casting stat being lower priority and the disadvantage from being in melee range), he has a choice between doing 8d6+20 (48 average) with the greatsword, or at the cost of his bonus action dealing 4d10+2d6+5 (34 average) with Firebolt and war magic. Unless you have good reason to be casting the firebolt anyways, it is a really bad option. Something like Thorn Whip does even worse in the damage comparison, though the rider effect may come in handy.

Someone on these forums once suggested letting the EK replace one of his multiple attacks with the cantrip, but that ends up being too strong in the other direction at high levels.

Fire bolt may fall behind in pure damage, but other cantrip additionnal effects that are to be account for in. Slowing an enemy can allow your partners to surround him, shocking grasp give you advantage on the attack roll if wearing metal armor, and the target can't use reaction. Chill touch prevent a creature from regaining hit points and undead target have disadvantage agaisnt you. Finally acid Splash can affect to creatures if they are within 5 ft.

War magic may not be as effective as going full attack, but add versatility to the fighter while still letting you hit a creature in melee. This is the major reason why War Magic is usefull to EK. Not every abilities needs to be about DPR...

[Darkzekkai]

So this got me thinking, how would this work if you used the ranger spell list? Slightly different than druid but geared more towards melee combat. And if your character uses a bow with the feats to go along with it. Would that be too powerful?

[MrStabby]

So this got me thinking, how would this work if you used the ranger spell list? Slightly different than druid but geared more towards melee combat. And if your character uses a bow with the feats to go along with it. Would that be too powerful?

This is hard for me as it seems much closer to the ranger. At least with a druid you end up with an option that seems to justify its existence. Ranger already gives "mostly fighter but part caster with spells from the ranger spell list".