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View Full Version : Skarn Spine weirdness



Telonius
2015-10-01, 01:40 PM
Leafing through Magic of Incarnum, I noticed this odd paragraph under the Skarn racial features, on page 16:


Natural Weapon (Spines): A skarn can make one attack with his arm spines each round, either with his primary hand or with his off-hand (taking the normal penalties for fighting with an off-hand weapon). This attack deals 1d6 points of piercing damage; if it is used as an off-hand weapon, the skarn may add only one-half his Strength bonus to the damage roll. A skarn can’t attack with his spines and a weapon wielded by the same arm in the same round. If a skarn makes a spine attack with an arm carrying a shield, he loses the shield’s bonus to AC until the start of his next turn.

Now I know that MoI is pretty infamous for bad editing, but this seems particularly weird. Typically, natural weapons don't count as off-hand weapons at all. You either use a given natural weapon as a primary attack, or as a secondary (distinct from off-hand) attack. It seems like this means I should parse it as though it were a specific exception to the natural weapons rule: Skarn spines are an unusual natural weapon that can be used as part of a two-weapon fighting attack (but only once per round). So am I reading that correctly, or should I just assume they screwed up and meant Secondary instead of off-hand?

This would make a difference in the attack sequence. Let's say you have a base attack bonus of +2, Strength of 14, and are wielding a Longsword in one hand. If you treat the spine as a secondary natural attack, the attack sequence would be Longsword +4/Spine -1 (whether or not you had TWF). But if it's an offhand attack, and you have TWF, the attack sequence would be Longsword +2/Spine +2.

Given the existence of Spinemeld Warrior (that explicitly lets you TWF with both spines) I'm leaning toward saying it's a special exception and an offhand attack, but I'd like to get some other opinions on this.

Greenish
2015-10-01, 01:50 PM
I think whoever wrote skarns and the Spinemeld Warrior just didn't know how natural weapons worked. Treating the spines as a sort of honorary manufactured weapon probably works, though I imagine there are weird rules interactions somewhere (we are talking about natural weapons, after all).

Also now I'm really amused that the capstone of Spinemeld Warrior is getting to call yourself "august perfect of roses".

Telonius
2015-10-01, 02:18 PM
I'm thinking the weird interactions would mainly be concerned with Totemist, and how they'd work with multiple other natural attacks. Which is a pretty serious concern (and doubly ridiculous that nobody considered putting the two together), considering Skarn were introduced in the same book as Totemist.

The Viscount
2015-10-01, 04:00 PM
The interaction becomes completely terrifying with the skarn monk substitution level. It replaces IUS with the spines and simply says something like "use spines for everything you'd use unarmed strike for" but needs far more text. I've tried several times to draft up a discussion of why it's broken, but I keep being bombarded with how nothing works. You'll likely find a few problems after a minute or so of consideration.

You might treat the text as is, but it's probably less headache for everyone to simply say they have 2 spines, 1 as primary, 1 as secondary.

KillianHawkeye
2015-10-01, 05:27 PM
It seems to me that the spines are natural weapons that use the rules for manufactured weapons, just like an unarmed strike does, with some additional notes and limitations.