Incantatrix insanity

[Kelb_Panthera]

Let's say that you're an incantatrix on a wizard base and have access to all of the metamagics and arbitrarily large spellcraft modifier. Let's say that you've also got every spell in the game in your spellbooks through whichever trickery you like. You have slots up to 9th level.

What's the most useful, powerful, broken, or otherwise ridiculous thing you can think of to do with all this power?

Edit: no DWK cheese for epic spells or feats. So no intensify spell, I suppose.

[GilesTheCleric]

arbitrarily large spellcraft modifier

Sounds like the best course of action would be to start picking up 10th level spells, or epic spells. Change your race to kobold so you can qualify (or I guess you could be a regular dragon, too).

Besides getting NI to all of your stats, the only more powerful thing I could see is creating your own universe, going epic, or getting divine ranks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bah. Should have known someone would bring those lizardy little bastards up.

No DWK cheese. OP edited to reflect.

[Bad Wolf]

Kill off the gods, end the universe, and start Universe 2.0.

[carrdrivesyou]

Have you heard of the Mailman?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer&post_num=4

Edot: Not really for wizard, but easier for metamagic cheese.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nothing revolutionary, I don't think-- your standard Ice Assassin/Wish loop/Shapechange insanity. You can get a silly number of buffs up if you Extend + Persist them the day before... you can be Mailman-good at blasting... quicken all of your spells to go nova twice as fast... You're really just a Wizard+. You're quantitatively better, but not really qualitatively, if that makes sense.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm familiar with the mailman concept and buffing to the nines but is there any more creative application? Some particularly arcane combination of metamagic and spell that really stands out (not counting the locate city bomb)? Anything?


Kill off the gods, end the universe, and start Universe 2.0.

Care to elaborate?

[Bad Wolf]

Care to elaborate?

If it has stats, it can be killed. Any arcane spellcaster of an evil alignment that can cast 2nd level spells can become Vecna-blooded. Then you go on a god-slaying adventure. Except for Vecna, of course.

I'll try and write up a god-slaying guide tomorrow. But for now, try and find Imhotep. He's a rank 0 demigod with 20 levels of expert. Teleport to his location, persist time stop, and cast some Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs. Searing Spell cuts the fire Resistance.

[Anthrowhale]

Use Repeat Maximized Absorption to give yourself unlimited applications of memorized spells as long as metamagic holds out. (i.e. forever).

Use Persistent Body Outside Body to get duplicates multiplying available metamagic applications as long as the spells hold out. (i.e. forever).

Use Persistent Shapechange(symbiont) to cast Shapechange on BoBs so they can symbiont so everyone can share spells.

Persist everything you care to.

Explore the world instantly and undetectably with your BoBs inside serial Repeat Twin Maximized Empowered Timestop.

Basic Mailman style allows you to deliver pain anywhere desired via brief appearances outside of Timestop. Spells like Stormrage help here.

[Kraken]

Seconding body outside body. Figure 2 levels of wyrm wizard for unambiguous access to it, then throw archmage on top for SLAs, and let's say mindbender for novelty: wizard5/incantatrix10/mindbender1/wyrm wizard2/archmage2

Your body outside body clones will have your archmage SLAs, so pick up a couple useful ones, like, say, miracle (via arcane disciple or planar touchstone). You can all communicate together telepathically thanks to mindbender, plus mindsight because it's just generally awesome. If you're finagling shared spell buffs with all your clones, then you can persist and metamagic the spell dragon breath from the SpC, then persist all the different buff spells for it that are also in the SpC. There's a ridiculous number of melee boosting spells you can persist, so you and all your clones will be able to do ludicrous amounts of damage in melee if you so desire.

Just make sure you yourself a tabard of valor (CChamp) and enough UMD ability to be able to activate it blindly with 100% success. Otherwise the spell magical backlash (DotU) could wreck you if you're carrying around a ton of buffs and don't have unbeatable SR. Caster level boosting is also highly recommended, so some jerk can't just dispel your clones. Infinite spells loop from energy transformation field+absorption is also a possibility if you really want.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Incantatrix Wizard really doesn't make for a good mailmen build.
You lack access to (Greater) Arcane Fusion and because of the way metamagic effect works you can't actually use it to enhance blasting spells (or anything instantaneous). It also doesn't work with quicken, so you're no better at blasting than a pure wizard until you get Instant Metamagic (which has very limited uses) and the capstone metamagic reducer.
You could do it with Body outside Body (somewhat), but that's coming a little late if you want to make blasting your thing.

I think your best bet will be Twin & Repeat on spells that actually profit from that, so mostly summoning. And then there's persisting buffs of course.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Use Repeat Maximized Absorption to give yourself unlimited applications of memorized spells as long as metamagic holds out. (i.e. forever).

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't apply the same metamagic to a spell more than once. You can loop repeat all you want since only the first of the two instances has repeat applied but that eats an action every time you create a new one. The best you can do for duration is a bit shy of 48 hours by persist then extend. Still 10*4+int spells of absorption per day is impressive as hell. Good catch.


Use Persistent Body Outside Body to get duplicates multiplying available metamagic applications as long as the spells hold out. (i.e. forever).

BOB is always a fan favorite. That they give you an arbitrary number of metamagic effect uses is absolutely sick.


Use Persistent Shapechange(symbiont) to cast Shapechange on BoBs so they can symbiont so everyone can share spells.

This one I'm not seeing. Shapechange is personal. How did you get the BOB clones to use it?


Persist everything you care to.

And extend it too. 48 hour durations FTW.


Explore the world instantly and undetectably with your BoBs inside serial Repeat Twin Maximized Empowered Timestop.

Wow that would be trippy.


Basic Mailman style allows you to deliver pain anywhere desired via brief appearances outside of Timestop. Spells like Stormrage help here.

Meh. Nothing impressive about buckets of damage. Useful, sure, but you can do arbitrary amounts of damage with sanctum spell, arcane fusion, and orb of X.

[Anthrowhale]

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't apply the same metamagic to a spell more than once.


That isn't what happens---you cast an infinite number of 'repeat maximized absorption' using the first instance to cast any other spell in the next round and the second to cast 'repeat maximized absorption'. This was discussed in the Priya Build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum).



How did you get the BOB clones to use it?


Read the 'Share Spells' section of Symbiotes in Fiend Folio.



...you can do arbitrary amounts of damage with sanctum spell, arcane fusion, and orb of X.

I don't believe that one. The spell level for arcane fusion is the metamagic adjusted spell slot level. (Otherwise you can freely stack all metamagic except heighten spell inside an AF cast spell which is absurd). Since Sanctum does not change the spell slot level, you cannot cast a Sanctum AF inside an AF.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That isn't what happens---you cast an infinite number of 'repeat maximized absorption' using the first instance to cast any other spell in the next round and the second to cast 'repeat maximized absorption'. This was discussed in the Priya Build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum).

I was taking each of these things independently. Consequently, I was not assuming an outside source for absorption to absorb.


Read the 'Share Spells' section of Symbiotes in Fiend Folio.

I'm familiar with symbionts and their share spells ability, where you're loosing me is how the BOBs are being allowed to sbapechange into symbionts in the first place.


I don't believe that one. The spell level for arcane fusion is the metamagic adjusted spell slot level. (Otherwise you can freely stack all metamagic except heighten spell inside an AF cast spell which is absurd). Since Sanctum does not change the spell slot level, you cannot cast a Sanctum AF inside an AF.

It's a point of contention. I won't demand agreement. The point was that there are plenty of ways to get obscene amounts of damage so it's not very impressive.

[Anthrowhale]

I was taking each of these things independently. Consequently, I was not assuming an outside source for absorption to absorb.

An outside source isn't actually needed. If the BoB does Twin Repeat on an L5 ranged spell that you cast on yourself immediately after the Repeat Absorption you can then cast any other spell half the time and repeat Lucubration half the time before the second Absorption comes up allowing you to self charge your Absorptions indefinitely.



I'm familiar with symbionts and their share spells ability, where you're loosing me is how the BOBs are being allowed to sbapechange into symbionts in the first place.


The BoB helps you cast Repeat Shapechange, you shapechange into a symbiont, and then attach to the BoB. The second shapechange is then shared with the BoB.



It's a point of contention. ... The point was that there are plenty of ways to get obscene amounts of damage so it's not very impressive.

The point wasn't the damage, it's the lack of contention. No similar drawback holds for this approach.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Things useful to an Incantatrix that I don't see come up that often, but are slightly less TO than this thread implies:

Circle magic through one FR PrC or another. Though not entirely necessary with high cheese, getting that base CL up to 40 can be quite handy to resist most conventional dispels (and to break AMFs with disjunction for that matter).

Spellguard of Silverymoon turns personal spells into touch range. Ocular-->chain-->persist means your whole party benefits from your cheese instead of just you and your BoB buddies.

Persist Undermaster for all your terraforming and building needs. Also, causing earthquakes on a whim is stylishly evil and destructive for your high-op BBEG.

[Rebel7284]

Once you pick up immunity to daze, I am a big fan of twinned, repeated celerity abuse. Get as many actions as a Time Stop with none of the annoying limitations. :)

[Aharon]

If it has stats, it can be killed. Any arcane spellcaster of an evil alignment that can cast 2nd level spells can become Vecna-blooded. Then you go on a god-slaying adventure. Except for Vecna, of course.

I'll try and write up a god-slaying guide tomorrow. But for now, try and find Imhotep. He's a rank 0 demigod with 20 levels of expert. Teleport to his location, persist time stop, and cast some Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs. Searing Spell cuts the fire Resistance.

For god's sake, how does this rumor still live? Gods - even Imhotep - can't be dealt with like the Tarrassque. They are intelligent - expect them to use their abilities to their advantage. Example posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19453213&postcount=34).

[Kelb_Panthera]

That can't really be it? I know how creative the playground gets and this exercise gives carte blanche to get those juices flowing.

One little bump to see if I can get another nibble, then I'll let it go.

[ryu]

That can't really be it? I know how creative the playground gets and this exercise gives carte blanche to get those juices flowing.

One little bump to see if I can get another nibble, then I'll let it go.

The problem is that you haven't given them a goal of any sort. Most of the craziest optimizations beyond simple ''do anything and everything'' come from trying to overcome some enemy or accomplish some task. Come up with the hardest task you can and then toss as many non-arbitrary limitations as you can.

[ben-zayb]

What I usually don't see with Incantarix bag-o-tricks is a Repeat Body Outside Body: Remember, Repeat metamagic doesn't simply Twin the spell, it enables you to recast it as a new, second, spell, which can then be modified again with Repeat spell.

Another trick is to cast all your spells with Echoing Spell (and maybe Twin/Repeat too, or any/all sorts of metamagic combinations) such that you have literally ALL your spells prepared with literally ALL possible combinations with metamagic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The problem is that you haven't given them a goal of any sort. Most of the craziest optimizations beyond simple ''do anything and everything'' come from trying to overcome some enemy or accomplish some task. Come up with the hardest task you can and then toss as many non-arbitrary limitations as you can.

Alright then, make it a mirror match. How would you defeat such this incantatrix with the same resources.

"Know your enemy, know yourself, and in 100 battles you shall never know defeat."

-sun tsu (paraphrased, since I don't know the appropriate chinese dialect)

[ryu]

Alright then, make it a mirror match. How would you defeat such this incantatrix with the same resources.

"Know your enemy, know yourself, and in 100 battles you shall never know defeat."

-sun tsu (paraphrased, since I don't know the appropriate chinese dialect)

And just to make it clear to the playground at large what conditions are in place we have to set fight parameters. I'm assuming full book access, allowance any other prestige classes in addition to incantrix if you can fit them into the build with all the incantrix levels, and basically only being limited to no epic/pun-pun yes? How is there a designated conflict time, place, or arena limitations or do both sides have to fight the proxy war with demiplanes and various forms of minion? Are there conditions for losing other than simply dying and if so what?

You've a good challenge going here, but you and I both know people like specifics with these things.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And just to make it clear to the playground at large what conditions are in place we have to set fight parameters. I'm assuming full book access, allowance any other prestige classes in addition to incantrix if you can fit them into the build with all the incantrix levels, and basically only being limited to no epic/pun-pun yes? How is there a designated conflict time, place, or arena limitations or do both sides have to fight the proxy war with demiplanes and various forms of minion? Are there conditions for losing other than simply dying and if so what?

You've a good challenge going here, but you and I both know people like specifics with these things.

Full book access, no dragon magazine, the proxy prelims have already been handled on both sides, you only need incantatrix up to metamagic effect (lvl 3, I believe), no questionable rules interpretations, strictest RAW only, no conjuration (calling) effects period (during or before the fight), no shapechange, build how you like but the enemy has the same build with different spells prepared today. That should just about do it.

One last thing; let's keep direct damage stacking to a minimum. Nobody's impressed by a prepared caster version of the mailman.

Edit: oops, forgot. Battlefield is of the poster's choice but featureless terrain should be saved for necessity in using specific spells/combos.

[Aharon]

Full book access, no dragon magazine, the proxy prelims have already been handled on both sides, you only need incantatrix up to metamagic effect (lvl 3, I believe), no questionable rules interpretations, strictest RAW only, no conjuration (calling) effects period (during or before the fight), no shapechange, build how you like but the enemy has the same build with different spells prepared today. That should just about do it.

One last thing; let's keep direct damage stacking to a minimum. Nobody's impressed by a prepared caster version of the mailman.

Edit: oops, forgot. Battlefield is of the poster's choice but featureless terrain should be saved for necessity in using specific spells/combos.

Wow, that's an interesting challenge. First instinct was to do something with extremely strong offense, weak defense, but then it's down to initiative. This is pretty hard to do, because whenever you shore up on defenses, your double does have them, too. I'll think about it for a bit, but this may take some time. Definitely some creativity required.

[ryu]

Wow, that's an interesting challenge. First instinct was to do something with extremely strong offense, weak defense, but then it's down to initiative. This is pretty hard to do, because whenever you shore up on defenses, your double does have them, too. I'll think about it for a bit, but this may take some time. Definitely some creativity required.

The point of divergence is supposed to be spell selection. That would mean the person who wins is going to be the person who picks spells better than him, or gains some synergy from them he doesn't know about. I'm not participating directly, because I basically turned this into an exercise in human psychology for myself. The more popular the challenge gets the more accurately I've pegged motivating factors here.

[ben-zayb]

Would this give a definitive conclusion, though? For one, this whole "fight myself" challenge is just begging for the "nerf my build as much as possible, then get the best outside-help first" strategy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Would this give a definitive conclusion, though? For one, this whole "fight myself" challenge is just begging for the "nerf my build as much as possible, then get the best outside-help first" strategy.

There is no definitive conclusion to reach*. The point of the exercise is to explore the power of metamagic effect and combinations of spells it can be used to create.

Likewise, intentional self-nerfing completely misses the point.

*unless you mean a definitive conclusion to the battle. In that case, higher than average probability will be good enough.

[Anthrowhale]

I wrote out the infinite spells loop in more detail here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447886-The-Perpetual-Motion-Wizard). Using Incantatrix is actually better, so something like:

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 5[Adroit Twin, Adroit Repeat]

seems good. For feats:

Ocular Spell Human
Halruaan Adept 1
DCFS->AT[Absorption] 3
Invisible Spell Wizard 5
Iron Will Otyugh Hole
Maximize Spell 6
Extend Spell Incantatrix 1
DCFS->AT[Celerity] 9
DCFS->AT[Mindfrost] Frog God's Fane
Persist Spell Incantatrix 4
DCFS->AT[Miracle] 12
Repeat Spell Incantatrix 7
DCFS->Spell Thematics Iron Wyrm Vault
Arcane Disciple(Luck) 15
Twin Spell Incantatrix 10
AT[Timestop] 18

Improved Metamagic, Adroit[Repeat], Adroit[Twin], and Arcane Thesis make Repeat Spell+0, Maximize Spell+1, and Twin Spell+1. Throwing in Invisible Spell makes all these metamagics +0 for Twin, Repeat Twin, and Repeat Maximize Arcane Thesis spells. That is enough to enable the infinite spells mechanics so you can cast every spell in your spellbook as often as desired in an instant. Note that Miracle provides standard action casting of Rary's Arcane Conversion which allows you to freely swap spells around.

Via Miracle, Ocular Spell, and Body-Outside-Body you can persist nearly every spell you care to. Using the loop you can do this in an instant.

Via Circle Magic your caster level is 40 (or higher... Greater Consumptive Field + Consumptive Field allows you to reach arbitrary caster level).

[atemu1234]

Use Twin Spell. Apply repwatedly to Mind Rape. Control the world.

[ngotham93nd]

You can get a silly number of buffs up if you Extend + Persist them the day before... you can be Mailman-good at blasting... quicken all of your spells to go nova twice as fast..:)