Illusions affecting the ethereal

[Scryangi]

Good day, everybody.

Lately there has been a discussion in our group about whether or not ethereal creatures could be affected by more than just Force and Abjuration spells. Asides from meta-magic, the idea has been offered that Illusion spells, more specifically those of the Shadow sub-school, could interact with ethereal beings.

The Ethereal Plane is a ghostly realm that exists as a buffer between the Material Plane and the Shadow Plane, overlapping each. Strange creatures dwell in the Ethereal Plane, as well as ghosts and dreams, many of which can sometimes extend their influence into the real world in mysterious and terrifying ways.

This seems to suggest that the ethereal is between Material and Shadow, and the Shadow plane is where the Shadow spells draw from. And the illusions never become truly material. They are still affected by belief and dreams, which is the area of the Ethereal.

When mortals of the Material Plane dream, their consciousnesses drift into the Ethereal, warping its reality. Imagined places and people are created in tangible forms out of the misty substance of the plane. Because of this, the fabrications of nightmares can be a threat to ethereal travelers, as these places and creatures act in a manner consistent with the worst fears of the dreamer. The indigenous night hags prey on dreamers, collecting these dreams and haunting the dreamers until they have captured their souls.

Inhabitants
The Ethereal is home to phantasmal creatures such as ghosts, as well as things born from the dreams of mortals. It is also the home of night hags and the xill.

However, it is clearly stated in the rules that only Force and Abjuration affects ethereal creatures. Would Shadow count as a form of Abjuration? "Magic affecting magic"? Or is it just an illusion and would not bridge the planes?

[DrMotives]

No, I would say that of any illusion school magics, shadow subschool spells would be the least likely to penetrate the Ethereal membrane. Ethereal things are out of phase with material things, in a step toward the Deep Ether. The Plane of Shadow is a step in another direction, if not opposite than at least perpendicular to the Ethereal from the Material. At least non-Shadow subschool illusions are wholly on the Material plane, or in the subjects mind.

[Deophaun]

I don't really see why it would.

For starters, the Shadow plane is not magic, nor are the things residing in it. If you went to the plane of Shadow and cast anti-magic field, nothing would happen to it. Even if spells could be assigned to schools based on definitions (they really can't), Shadow magic doesn't qualify as magic affecting magic.

Secondly, the part you quoted implies that shadowstuff is just as far removed from the ethereal as any solid object in the prime. If a prime fireball doesn't affect an ethereal creature, a shadow fireball isn't going to have a better shot.

[Necroticplague]

Shadow spells are Illusions, not Abjurations. They don't cross planes without the relevant metamagic. A Shadow spell is related to the Plane of Shadow in the same way Fireball is related to the Plane of Fire: It uses the same stuff and energy that very commonly found on the plane, but doesn't have an inherent link to it in any way.

Also, given the shifting nature of the Shadow, one would expect that, if it worked like you're talking about (which it doesn't), it would be difficult to aim anything accurately, as Shadow Walk shows, Prime->shadow-> prime isn't very accurate, so there's no real reason to believe prime->shadow->ethereal would be any easier to hit. Your Shadow Illusion would probably land miles off the target.

[Scryangi]

Okay, I showed this to the group.

If the Ethereal is the transition between Shadow and Material, does the shadow stuff from a shadow conjuration not pass through it on its way to the Material, and hit the ethereal creature? Or even resides there for 80% as only 20% of it reaches the Material?

[Necroticplague]

Okay, I showed this to the group.

If the Ethereal is the transition between Shadow and Material, does the shadow stuff from a shadow conjuration not pass through it? Or even resides there for 80% as only 20% of it reaches the Material?
Does any of the Fire from a Fireball hang out in the Ethereal or Shadow?

[Scryangi]

Does any of the Fire from a Fireball hang out in the Ethereal or Shadow?

Yes, the shadow stuff mimicking the Fireball is from the Shadow and transitions through the Ethereal.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, the shadow stuff mimicking the Fireball is from the Shadow and transitions through the Ethereal.

No, I mean for a normal Fireball. Because it's the same scenario. Shadow from the Shadow plane, Fire from the Fire Plane. Ethereal plane is just a bystander transitive plane (as is the Shadow itself).

[Deophaun]

Yes, the shadow stuff mimicking the Fireball is from the Shadow and transitions through the Ethereal.
Transitions through the Ethereal (maybe) to the wizard's hand, where it coalesces into a pea-sized ball. At this point, it's now fully in the Material.

[Scryangi]

No, I mean for a normal Fireball. Because it's the same scenario. Shadow from the Shadow plane, Fire from the Fire Plane. Ethereal plane is just a bystander transitive plane (as is the Shadow itself).

Uh, yes?

Evocation
noun
1. an act or instance of evoking; a calling forth.

If elements make up the world, then it's all connected to their source.

[Werephilosopher]

Shadowstuff and elemental fire on their way to the Material Plane interact with the Ethereal the same way teleporters interact with the Astral: practically not at all. They just use the transitive plane as a conduit - they don't actually manifest within it. If you could stop time the moment some wizard on the Material cast fireball, for instance, and then shifted to the Ethereal, you wouldn't be able to physically locate the elemental fire on the Ethereal.

[Scryangi]

Wow, all of this makes going ethereal sound a lot less cool. You're not in incorporeal, but in a parallel world that has little to do with the real one.

[DrMotives]

Wow, all of this makes going ethereal sound a lot less cool. You're not in incorporeal, but in a parallel world that has little to do with the real one.

That's exactly what it is. The nickname for the Ethereal from the Planescape campaign is the Shoreless Sea. Being ethereal is a condition where you're halfway in, it's compared to standing in the surf at the beach. Sure, you're standing on land, but also in the water. You exist partially in both at the same time. In 3.x it's an optional variant cosmology, but the Deep Ether is what's all the way in. It's a mostly empty transitive plane much like the Astral, only instead of a outer space-like silver void, it's a cloudy misty (but dry, that's possibility vapor instead of water vapor) void with almost no native life, and almost no places of any sort. It's very boring, but it's one of the glues that holds the Multiverse together.

[Necroticplague]

Wow, all of this makes going ethereal sound a lot less cool. You're not in incorporeal, but in a parallel world that has little to do with the real one.

Ummmmm....yeah? That's why your so hard to hit on the Ethereal. Because you're on a completely different plane.

[Scryangi]

What about sight based effects? An ethereal creature can see into the Material. Gaze effects affect it. Can it set off Explosive Runes? Can it see Pattern spells? Phantasmal creatures?

[Necroticplague]

What about sight based effects? An ethereal creature can see into the Material. Gaze effects affect it. Can it set off Explosive Runes? Can it see Pattern spells? Phantasmal creatures?


Explosive Runes is an Abjuration (Force) spell. It meets both of the normal qualifiers for what can effect Ethereal creatures.

Yes, it can see patterns. However, since Patterns aren't Abjurations or Force effects, they won't effect it. If you need some fluff explaining why (since you're apparently trying to turn various pieces of fluff into mechanical advantage).

Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly.
So you look at the pattern, but because of it's indistinct and gray nature, it doesn't have the impact of the normal full-on pattern. Kinda like looking at a kaleidescope through a sepia filter looses a lot of the charm. In addition, while the pattern may be visible to everyone, the magic of the pattern only extends to the plane it was cast on and within the range of a spell. So even if you're looking at it through Scrying, you're not effected, because the magic of the pattern can't reach you. The magic doesn't reach you if you're an entire plane away, either.

Pretty much the same with Phantasmal spells (strangler, flanker, killer, ect.). See it, doesn't really do anything for you.