Mounted Combat -- they both get full turns??

[LazarusDarkeyes]

3.5 D&D

Context of Inquiry:
-Making a dragon riding (Dragon Cohort) character

1) While mounted, the mount and rider using the rider's initiative, correct? How does that work out if the rider dismounts and one or the other of them delays and offsets their initiative? (did the mount ever even roll initiative)
2) When they act, do both the Mount and Rider each get a full turn (full round action or standard+move action)? Or does ONLY the rider and the Mount is effectively a sort of item that the rider uses?>

I have read over rulebooks, rules compendium, errata, and lots of forum posts. This answer is *NOT* clear to me.

Depending on this answer, I'll have a bunch more questions accordingly.

[Warrnan]

I've had this come up. We've always played that both creatures get full turns but if the mount allows the rider to control it they have same initiative. If you have a dragon, they are intelligent and completely capable of acting in combat much like simmons, animal companions, etc. Most people just resolve their "minion's" turn on their "hero's" turn just for simplicity sake. However they could roll seperately.

[torrasque666]

First off, did you read this section of the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat)?

1) Yes, they both use the rider's initiative. Technically, as an entry in combat, the mount should roll initiative at the beginning of combat like anyone else, its just then overridden by the rules of being a mount. When the rider dismounts, the mount can once again act on its own initiative.

2) Yes, they both get a full turn. However, if the mount moves more than 5 feet, the rider can only make a single melee attack (good for lances, not so much for everything else). However, if you are attacking at range you can make a full attack (so if there wasn't the damn errata stating that mounted scouts don't get their skirmish, mounted archery would be a wonderful style for them) This mean that if your mount moves up to the opponent in one action, they can make an attack with you. If they make a charge, you can still do something with your move action as it is not your move action being used. Do not that since you are not the one charging, you do not get the benefit of things like Pounce, or other abilities that activate normally on a charge. You need abilities that activate on a mounted​ charge.

[LazarusDarkeyes]

Yes, I read that. If it ended there, it would be ...simpler...

ok, they both get full actions -- that is what i thought and it makes more sense. Now for the bits not written so well.

-rider has initiative 10
-dragon has initiative 5
-the dragon is mounted
-at initiative 10, they both act
1.a) can they split their turns up as desired?
EX: dragon moves, rider attacks, dragon attack, rider does something that is a move-equivalent action
1.b) what happens when they split up
EX: dragon moves, dragon attacks, rider attacks, rider does move-equivalent action, ride check free action rider dismounts...
now when it gets to initiative 5, does the dragon take a turn again? Obviously not I think...but what are the mechanics of this?

3) Can you explain Mounted Overrun (=Trample, not the same as Trample feat) then? Is the mount using Overrun as its actions for the turn? Is the rider using actions?
3.a) Am I understanding that if a Rider has a feat, Trample, (or Cavalry Charger and uses Fell Trample), then that makes the Mount better at Overrunning? (anyone else think that seems logically silly?? Shouldn't the MOUNT be taking a feat that makes it better at Overrunning?)

4) Ride-By attack: I'm not looking to get into the straight line move stuff debate. What I *DO* not get is that Ride-By attack, which is a feat the Rider would take, says when he charges, Ride-by attack stuff happens.
How does a Rider charge??

[torrasque666]

Yes, I read that. If it ended there, it would be ...simpler...

ok, they both get full actions -- that is what i thought and it makes more sense. Now for the bits not written so well.

-rider has initiative 10
-dragon has initiative 5
-the dragon is mounted
-at initiative 10, they both act
1.a) can they split their turns up as desired?
EX: dragon moves, rider attacks, dragon attack, rider does something that is a move-equivalent action
Yes. Just like any other character may split their actions however they choose. A player can always standard then move, or move then standard and thus the rider combo can as well.



1.b) what happens when they split up
EX: dragon moves, dragon attacks, rider attacks, rider does move-equivalent action, ride check free action rider dismounts...
now when it gets to initiative 5, does the dragon take a turn again? Obviously not I think...but what are the mechanics of this?

If the rider has already used their move action, they can't free action dismount (right there in the ride skill). However, as to what happens when a rider dismounts his steed, its a bit fuzzy. The rules weren't printed with the idea of intelligent mounts (standard mounts are animals, remember?). Falls into "Ask your DM" territory. I'd agree with you that they wouldn't for what its worth.


3) Can you explain Mounted Overrun (=Trample, not the same as Trample feat) then? Is the mount using Overrun as its actions for the turn? Is the rider using actions?

Overrun is a standard action, used by the performer (in this case the mount). Your mount can either take the Improved Overrun feat, or the rider can take the Trample feat to force the opponent to deal with them.


3.a) Am I understanding that if a Rider has a feat, Trample, (or Cavalry Charger and uses Fell Trample), then that makes the Mount better at Overrunning? (anyone else think that seems logically silly?? Shouldn't the MOUNT be taking a feat that makes it better at Overrunning?)

Yes the feats Trample, or any form of it, make the Rider better at Overrun as it gives the rider better control of their mount. Remember, you are forcing the animal to do something it normally doesn't do(charge into enemy vs go around enemy). Thus, your ability to control them (as represented by the feats you have) is important.


4) Ride-By attack: I'm not looking to get into the straight line move stuff debate. What I *DO* not get is that Ride-By attack, which is a feat the Rider would take, says when he charges, Ride-by attack stuff happens.
How does a Rider charge??

A Rider performs a Mounted Charge, which is similar, but in that its the mount who actually charges. All conditions to charge normally must be met. This means that the mount cannot have taken a 5-foot step, cannot have taken a move/standard action, etc. The mount takes their full round action to charge (including, technically, the ability to make an attack at the end of it) while the rider uses their standard to perform a melee attack. Remember, you have not performed the charge, and thus do not get the benefit of things like Pounce.

[Darrin]

1.a) can they split their turns up as desired?
EX: dragon moves, rider attacks, dragon attack, rider does something that is a move-equivalent action
1.b) what happens when they split up
EX: dragon moves, dragon attacks, rider attacks, rider does move-equivalent action, ride check free action rider dismounts...
now when it gets to initiative 5, does the dragon take a turn again? Obviously not I think...but what are the mechanics of this?


The DMG has a little more to say on intelligent mounts (pg. 204) but unfortunately nothing useful on how you manage actions or Ride checks. It says you need to use Diplomacy to work out what the mount will agree to do as a mount, and you need to train together.

But there's another rather glaring grey area in the mounted combat rules, and I'm puzzled why the designers never addressed it: can the rider delay or ready his action until after his mount moves, thus circumventing the annoying "single melee attack" restriction? The rules don't really provide any guidance here. You could say it's not allowed because the free action you use to guide/direct your mount and then your delayed/readied action can't be split over two different initiative counts, but the rules are too vague to explicitly forbid this. Normally you could say "a horse isn't smart enough to act on its own without being directed by the rider", but that goes out the window when you have an intelligent mount like a dragon, which is perfectly capable of acting on its own initiative or responding to simple voice commands (talking is a free action).

So I'd suggest a house rule: At count 10, the rider delays until after the dragon has acted. Dragon acts on count 5, does all sorts of cool awesome dragon stuff. On count 4, the rider makes a Ride check DC 5 to stay in the saddle, because he wasn't directing his mount and isn't able to easily predict the mount's movements. If he fails, he either falls out of the saddle or has to spend a move action to hold on. If successful, he can take his full complement of actions, including a full melee attack if he likes.



3) Can you explain Mounted Overrun (=Trample, not the same as Trample feat) then? Is the mount using Overrun as its actions for the turn? Is the rider using actions?


I think torrasque666 covered this pretty well, although by strict RAW... if you have the Trample feat and your mount doesn't have Improved Overrun, your mount still provokes an AoO by using Overrun. Yeah... I can't imagine any sane DM ever enforcing this. If your DM is thickheaded enough to insist on the AoO, then maybe it might be worth suggesting another house rule to say if the rider has Improved Overrun, then the mount gets the benefit as well.



4) Ride-By attack: I'm not looking to get into the straight line move stuff debate. What I *DO* not get is that Ride-By attack, which is a feat the Rider would take, says when he charges, Ride-by attack stuff happens.
How does a Rider charge??

The mount is charging, the rider is directing. The designers worded this feat poorly. I'm guessing none of the playtesters used the mounted combat rules enough that they were able to catch it. Just assume that what the designers meant is "when the rider directs his mount to charge".

[Firest Kathon]

1.b) what happens when they split up
EX: dragon moves, dragon attacks, rider attacks, rider does move-equivalent action, ride check free action rider dismounts...
now when it gets to initiative 5, does the dragon take a turn again? Obviously not I think...but what are the mechanics of this?

When the rider dismounts, the mount still has the same initiative as the rider had. Effectively, the mount took the "Delay" special initiative action until its rider's initiative count, which as normal changes the mounts initiative to the count on which it decided to act, i.e. the riders Initiative. It is, however, now free to delay/ready and change its initiative as normal. Just treat them like two characters who rolled the same initiative. Edited to add: This works the same way for both intelligent and non-intelligent mounts.

Dragon original initiative: - (As the combat started with the rider mounted, the mount will not roll its own initiative.
Rider original initiative: 10

On initiative count 10: Rider and mount act, rider dismounts
Dragon initiative: 10
Rider initiative: 10

On initiative count 5: Neither mount nor rider act

Next round, on initiative count 10: Rider readies an action to interrupt a spellcaster, dragon delays:
On initiative count 8, the spellcaster casts, triggering the readies action.
On initiative count 4, an enemies moves into range of the dragon and it attacks, ending the delay:
Dragon initiative: 4
Rider initiative: 8

Next round, on initiative count 8: Rider mounts (as a free action) and charges at an enemy. The mount acts on the initiative of the rider, overriding its own initiative.
Dragon initiative: -
Rider initiative: 8

If the mount acted in the round before the rider mounted it, it would not act again in the same round, but in the next round on the rider's initiative count.


But there's another rather glaring grey area in the mounted combat rules, and I'm puzzled why the designers never addressed it: can the rider delay or ready his action until after his mount moves, thus circumventing the annoying "single melee attack" restriction?
It does not seem gray to me, neither option is possible. If you use a free action to direct your mount, then you turn has started and you can no longer delay. You can ready an action, but as you can only ready a standard or move action, not a full round action, this works out just like the "normal" rule set, giving you a single attack at the end of the mount's move.

[LazarusDarkeyes]

I realize it's been answered 1-2 times in this thread, but I just wanted to be VERY sure a specific set of wording above didn't accidentally get misunderstood.

"
1.a) can they split their turns up as desired?
EX: dragon moves, rider attacks, dragon attack, rider does something that is a move-equivalent action
"

Is it really and truly true that the mount and rider can alternate their actions in this 'one mounted+rider' turn?

[torrasque666]

I realize it's been answered 1-2 times in this thread, but I just wanted to be VERY sure a specific set of wording above didn't accidentally get misunderstood.

"
1.a) can they split their turns up as desired?
EX: dragon moves, rider attacks, dragon attack, rider does something that is a move-equivalent action
"

Is it really and truly true that the mount and rider can alternate their actions in this 'one mounted+rider' turn?
Yes. You are correct. Both Rider and Mount get their full suite of actions, allowing the exact kind of situation displayed in question 1A.