Slippers of Battledancing.....

[Masakan]

They don't work with Travel Devotion do they?

[Jack_Simth]

They don't work with Travel Devotion do they?

Correct, has to be part of a move action. Lesser Celerity, on the other hand....

[Masakan]

Correct, has to be part of a move action. Lesser Celerity, on the other hand....

So that would in effect leave you with 2 options, Either accept that you will just move and attack and optimize it with standard actions Via tome of battle.
Or Suck it up and get....spring attack which many consider suboptimal.
If there is a 3rd way I would love to hear it.

[Kantolin]

Couldn't you move in, activate hustle, full attack?

Edit: Alternately, couldn't you just do a charging build?

[Masakan]

Couldn't you move in, activate hustle, full attack?

Edit: Alternately, couldn't you just do a charging build?
No it doesn't work like that, Hustle eats up your attack option so you can't attack at all

And if you are doing a charging build...I fail to see how your charisma would even be remotely high enough to make it work. That and many Dm's I talk to, won't allow a lion totem barbarian dip as they feel pounce isn't something you should just "Get"

[iDesu]

Doesn't hustle just trade your swift action for another move action?

[Masakan]

Doesn't hustle just trade your swift action for another move action?

If it did then travel devotion would be kind of pointless now wouldn't it?

[iDesu]

Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm)

No? I mean, travel devotion doesn't require you to have 2nd level psy-warrior powers or 3rd level egoist powers. You can get Travel devotion from a one level dip in Cleric, or as a feat.

[Masakan]

Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm)

No? I mean, travel devotion doesn't require you to have 2nd level psy-warrior powers or 3rd level egoist powers. You can get Travel devotion from a one level dip in Cleric, or as a feat.
Oh I have almost NO experience with psionics.

[Crake]

Oh I have almost NO experience with psionics.

If you have almost no experience with something, then you shouldn't really be giving rules advice on the topic :smallconfused:

[OldTrees1]

If you have almost no experience with something, then you shouldn't really be giving rules advice on the topic :smallconfused:

1) That is the OP, not someone giving advice.
2) Hustle is both an action in the PHB(posts 5 and 7) and a Psionic Power(posts 4, 6, 8, and 9).

[Masakan]

1) That is the OP, not someone giving advice.
2) Hustle is both an action in the PHB(posts 5 and 7) and a Psionic Power(posts 4, 6, 8, and 9).
Thank you! I mean can you blame me for getting confused?

[OldTrees1]

Thank you! I mean can you blame me for getting confused?

No, I can't blame you,
however I adopt the policy of:
"How I read what they just said doesn't make any sense*, therefore there is something wrong with my reading**".

*(ex: Double Moving trades your Swift for another Move)
**(ex: They did not mean Double Moving by "Hustle")

This policy serves me quite well even when the other person does not follow it.

[Crake]

1) That is the OP, not someone giving advice.
2) Hustle is both an action in the PHB(posts 5 and 7) and a Psionic Power(posts 4, 6, 8, and 9).

Ah right, good call on point 2, around my table we just call it double moving, so I didn't realise that's where the confusion was arising, it seemed to me that Masakan was saying the hustle power wouldn't work without really knowing how it functioned, but i see now that he was confused, thinking that Kantolin was referring to double moving.

[ILM]

Also, Belt of Battle (MIC), to point out the obvious.

[ben-zayb]

How would the Slippers work with a Full-round (i.e. not Move) action such as a charge?

Would it work with Shadow Stride, though?

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's quite a few ways to get pounce, not just with the Barbarian ACF.

1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East)
1) Lion Totem Barbarian, class variant, Complete Champion
1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South)
2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA)
4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook)
5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 2th level ranger spell, Spell Compendium)
5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III)
6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine), only after using wildshape, see text
6) Bestial charge, feat, Complete Champion
7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation)
8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.)
8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS)
10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron)
11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures)
11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds)
13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine)
17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).)
17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat)
21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon)

Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves).

Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters.

With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible.

Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging):
Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA, possibly others)
Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW)
Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH)
Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV)
Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE), ecl 11
Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South)
Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV)
Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH)
Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD)
Animal Lord (Catlord): two claws at end of charge, ecl 8

And pounce is hardly cheese. Full attacks are pretty much a requirement for any non-ToB melee character to meaningfully contribute, especially if you want to go with something other than the classic Spiked Chain + Improved Trip lockdown approach or if you're not a charger with a twohanded weapon.
The classic greataxe-swinging barbarian or paladin with a greatsword need pounce or something similar to keep up, as do TWF rangers and rogues, unless your game is very low powered.

[ILM]

How would the Slippers work with a Full-round (i.e. not Move) action such as a charge?

Would it work with Shadow Stride, though?
They wouldn't. The wording is crystal clear: you need to move at least 10 ft as part of a move action. If it's not a move action, it doesn't count for the Slippers.

Shadow Stride isn't really clear-cut, I feel. Question 1: does teleportation count as movement? Question 2: if not, since Shadow Jaunt refers both to teleportation AND movement, how do we handle this? I'd just ask the DM to make a call.

[Jack_Simth]

So that would in effect leave you with 2 options, Either accept that you will just move and attack and optimize it with standard actions Via tome of battle.
Or Suck it up and get....spring attack which many consider suboptimal.
If there is a 3rd way I would love to hear it.

Option 3 is: Find a source of extra actions in a round. Many have been mentioned. The Psionic power Hustle, the Celerity line of spells from the PHB II, and the Belt of Battle from the Magic Item Compendium, to name three.

Oddly, Pounce technically doesn't cut it, as it's a full-round action (sometimes a standard action) to charge; it's not a move action.

[Necroticplague]

Some creatures have more actions than normal. At least one, the Sharn, is playable. Another, the Chronotryn (probably spelled that wrong) can be Wild Shaped into by a Planar Shapherd or a MoMF, or Shapechanged into. Likewise with a Choker.

Also, one could get creative with AoO's, moving on your own turn, then attacking when the enemy provokes on theirs for the benefit. I imagine some fun could be had with Active Shield Defence+Spinning Sword (or Kusari-gama)+Isle of Blades.


EDIT:some further ways to improve a standard action attack, if you go that route:

Double Strike.
Snap Kick.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Some creatures have more actions than normal. At least one, the Sharn, is playable. Another, the Chronotryn (probably spelled that wrong) can be Wild Shaped into by a Planar Shapherd or a MoMF, or Shapechanged into.

Slight nitpick: MoMF cannot assume magical beast form. The 3.0 Shifter could. In any case Shifter, MoMF, and Planar Shepherd need Assume Supernatural Ability.

[Necroticplague]

Slight nitpick: MoMF cannot assume magical beast form. The 3.0 Shifter could. In any case Shifter, MoMF, and Planar Shepherd need Assume Supernatural Ability.

I'm AFB, but I thought the Chronortryn was an Outsider?
Somewhat irrelevent because MoMFs don't get Outsiders eaither
EDIT: Nope, cracked open the Fiend Folio, Magic Beasts native to Acheron.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm AFB, but I thought the Chronortryn was an Outsider?
Somewhat irrelevent because MoMFs don't get Outsiders eaither
EDIT: Nope, cracked open the Fiend Folio, Magic Beasts native to Acheron.

MoMF can't do outsiders either. MoMF lost a lot of goodies for its tiny gains.

[torrasque666]

Option 3 is: Find a source of extra actions in a round. Many have been mentioned. The Psionic power Hustle, the Celerity line of spells from the PHB II, and the Belt of Battle from the Magic Item Compendium, to name three.

Oddly, Pounce technically doesn't cut it, as it's a full-round action (sometimes a standard action) to charge; it's not a move action.


Technically, if you are limited to only taking a move action, you could charge as a move. Dunno which conditions inflict that limitation though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Slight nitpick: MoMF cannot assume magical beast form. The 3.0 Shifter could. In any case Shifter, MoMF, and Planar Shepherd need Assume Supernatural Ability.

Aberration Wild Shape has a few forms with (Ex) extra actions. Nilshai (UE) and the Thoon Elder Brain (MM5) definitely have them.

Instead of ASA you can also get ML 5 and take Metamorphic Transfer for more flexibility (and a higher likelyhood of being allowed).
And Planar Shepherds get (Su) abilities from their outsider forms naturally, no need for a feat.

[DarkSonic1337]

Adding to the "improving standard attacks" thing, slippers of battle dancing are also compatible with maneuvers.

You could also have a Dojre of hustle and a level of Martial Monk trading my flurry of blows for decisive strike and Snap Kick+Double hit+Karmic Strike+Robilar's Gambit for a strong counter attack build.

Oh, and take a look at Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows. It's bonus CHA damage (fire damage) on melee attacks. This includes touch attacks if you want to do damage on trips or grapples or something.

[OldTrees1]

Technically, if you are limited to only taking a move action, you could charge as a move. Dunno which conditions inflict that limitation though.

Nausea(can't attack) and Staggered come to mind.
Staggered could be inflicted for 1 round via Staggering Strike.

So
1) SA yourself to become Staggered(voluntarily failing the save)
2) Since you are now limited to only a Standard or a Move action per turn, Charge as a Move action

[Necroticplague]

Nausea(can't attack) and Staggered come to mind.
Staggered could be inflicted for 1 round via Staggering Strike.

So
1) SA yourself to become Staggered(voluntarily failing the save)
2) Since you are now limited to only a Standard or a Move action per turn, Charge as a Move action

You can be perpetually staggered from having HP<-10 with Hide Life on.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Nausea(can't attack) and Staggered come to mind.
Staggered could be inflicted for 1 round via Staggering Strike.

So
1) SA yourself to become Staggered(voluntarily failing the save)
2) Since you are now limited to only a Standard or a Move action per turn, Charge as a Move action

Nauseated restricts you to a move action only, not a standard or move action. It also specifically prevents you from attacking.
That means you can't get a partial charge while nauseated.

Also deliberately trying to be staggered, or any condition that restricts you to a standard or move action, has absolutely no benefit.
You still only get the charge, but you lose out on movement.

[OldTrees1]

Nauseated restricts you to a move action only, not a standard or move action. It also specifically prevents you from attacking.
That means you can't get a partial charge while nauseated.

Also deliberately trying to be staggered, or any condition that restricts you to a standard or move action, has absolutely no benefit.
You still only get the charge, but you lose out on movement.

I mentioned the detail about Nausea in the post you quoted.

Being able to charge as a move action is relevant to the Slippers of Battledancing(aka the thread) whereas normal charging is not.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I mentioned the detail about Nausea in the post you quoted.

Being able to charge as a move action is relevant to the Slippers of Battledancing(aka the thread) whereas normal charging is not.
I am at the charge rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) and it doesn't say that the charge changes from a full round to a move.

[torrasque666]

I am at the charge rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) and it doesn't say that the charge changes from a full round to a move.
Last paragraph, first section

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
If restricted to only a single action (either standard or move) you can charge with limitations. Normally, charging is a full-round action, but by being explicitly allowed to do so when not able to make a full-round action it becomes whatever action you are able to do.

[Necroticplague]

If restricted to only a single action (either standard or move) you can charge with limitations. Normally, charging is a full-round action, but by being explicitly allowed to do so when not able to make a full-round action it becomes whatever action you are able to do.

Actually, it doesn't specify what action it becomes. It says you cans till charge, but doesn't say what action it uses up.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Actually, it doesn't specify what action it becomes. It says you cans till charge, but doesn't say what action it uses up.

This is what I came across. Near as I can tell it is a specific exception to the rule that full round actions cannot be used if you are restricted to a move or a standard.

[Eisfalken]

Just throwing this one out there, but if your DM is gun-shy about barbarian ACFs, talk with them about using wand chambers (from Dungeonscape), and dipping ranger or psy-war for (psionic) lion's pounce, so you can use the wands if you just have to have pounce ability somehow.

Personally speaking, I'd definitely go for the wand idea, mixed with a Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter build aiming for TWF abilities. Pair up lion's charge with an off-hand wand that enhances it: rhino's rush for raw damage, surefooted stride for overcoming bad terrain, swift haste for a boost to everything for a round (movement, attack, damage, etc.), protection from energy if you're fighting something with pretty nasty energy attacks (like dragons), maybe even eventually a freedom of movement wand in case the enemy tries to stop your mobility. Heck, you'd even be able to keep a few cure wands handy if you needed to throw some heals in a pinch.

It's a little more like a "gish-in-a-can" build, but even without magic you'd still be very effective, since the other side of your build is all on feats and class abilities that can't be turned off by antimagic or dispel. And it may be a poor build for a low-level game that doesn't go past a few sessions.

All this also applies to any build with good UMD. I actually can see a very good meleelock build using this set up, either with a least rod of eldritch power (Complete Mage) with eldritch glaive (Dragon Magic), or a pair of beast claws (Savage Species) and the Eldritch Claws feat (Dragon #358), all with wand chambers built into them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Options:

Convince your DM to bend the rules and let them work any time you move at least 10 feet under your own power, like Skirmish-- it's downright goofy that they work with a move action, but not something like Travel Devotion's swift-action movement.
Use a quick-movement option, attack, and retreat.
Find another way to dump Strength and still do decent melee damage. Say, a Feycraft weapon and Shadow Blade. A wand chamber of Whirling Blade. A Crystal Echoblade and Weapon Finesse/Snowflake Wardance. Maneuvers. Thunderlance.



So that would in effect leave you with 2 options, Either accept that you will just move and attack and optimize it with standard actions Via tome of battle.
Or Suck it up and get....spring attack which many consider suboptimal.
If there is a 3rd way I would love to hear it.
Travel Devotion (most any other quick-movement option) is still superior to Spring Attack-- you Move Action to tumble in, take your standard action attack, and Swift Action to tumble out. And Travel Devotion can be improved by, say, using maneuvers, while Spring Attack will never be anything but a single swing. Even if you're using Cha for attack and damage instead of Str, it's not great. Anything you can do to improve it also applies to Travel Devotion for double-movement, but without the added flexibility.

I'm honestly not sure why you're so gung-ho about pushing Spring Attack as an optimal choice. I mean, even here, you're spending three feats (two crappy) and a not-overly-cheap magic item in order to... move a short distance in and out of the fight and make an attack for d8+Cha damage.

[Necroticplague]

Travel Devotion (most any other quick-movement option) is still superior to Spring Attack-- you Move Action to tumble in, take your standard action attack, and Swift Action to tumble out. And Travel Devotion can be improved by, say, using maneuvers, while Spring Attack will never be anything but a single swing.

Actually, you can get more than one strike out of Spring Attack. There's 2 feats that allows for another one (bounding assault and rapid blitz), and snap kick piles on another. Of course, that's almost all your feats on a combat style that still isn't very good.....

[Masakan]

Actually, you can get more than one strike out of Spring Attack. There's 2 feats that allows for another one (bounding assault and rapid blitz), and snap kick piles on another. Of course, that's almost all your feats on a combat style that still isn't very good.....

it's more trying to justify a style when you feel you have no other choice in the matter.

[Darrin]

it's more trying to justify a style when you feel you have no other choice in the matter.

Well, it does solve some of the problems with TWF: you can do the THF thing, only one weapon to enchant, and unless your opponent has Pounce, you avoid the counterattack problem. Downside would be you spent six feats for only four attacks.

[Masakan]

Well, it does solve some of the problems with TWF: you can do the THF thing, only one weapon to enchant, and unless your opponent has Pounce, you avoid the counterattack problem. Downside would be you spent six feats for only four attacks.
Actually I was referring to myself, I know that travel devotion would solve a lot of problems, but.....it's better if I PM you

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, it does solve some of the problems with TWF: you can do the THF thing, only one weapon to enchant, and unless your opponent has Pounce, you avoid the counterattack problem. Downside would be you spent six feats for only four attacks.

The problem being that THF is most effective with strength and Power Attack. Weapon damage is almost meaningless after the lowest levels, so there's no point using a twohanded weapon if you don't have the strength and BAB for PA.

To compensate for the lack of multiplicator with using the slippers (or indeed any "X to damage" ability) you want to get as many attacks as you can.
You won't have the BAB to qualify for Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz until very late if you're not a high BAB class, and getting Snap Kick will usually cost you another feat for IUS with a fighting style that is already feat starved and still inferior to just getting PA.
That's hardly a viable solution for builds that want to make melee damage their contribution to combat but don't want to play a Str-focused THF charger.

For the same feat investment you could just screw the slippers, get into Telflammar Shadowlord and do 3 shadowpouncing full attacks per round to compensate for the lost damage.

[Masakan]

The problem being that THF is most effective with strength and Power Attack. Weapon damage is almost meaningless after the lowest levels, so there's no point using a twohanded weapon if you don't have the strength and BAB for PA.

To compensate for the lack of multiplicator with using the slippers (or indeed any "X to damage" ability) you want to get as many attacks as you can.
You won't have the BAB to qualify for Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz until very late if you're not a high BAB class, and getting Snap Kick will usually cost you another feat for IUS with a fighting style that is already feat starved and still inferior to just getting PA.
That's hardly a viable solution for builds that want to make melee damage their contribution to combat but don't want to play a Str-focused THF charger.

For the same feat investment you could just screw the slippers, get into Telflammar Shadowlord and do 3 shadowpouncing full attacks per round to compensate for the lost damage.

Yeah the more I work with these things the more I realize how much of a headache they are, to the point where I'm thinking they are either overhyped or just flat out bad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem being that THF is most effective with strength and Power Attack. Weapon damage is almost meaningless after the lowest levels, so there's no point using a twohanded weapon if you don't have the strength and BAB for PA.
If you scrape up 13 Strength, you can take Weapon Finesse and a Feycraft weapon and just go to town that way-- Inspire Courage should make up for the lower BAB, as does the fact that you'll only be doing one attack.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you scrape up 13 Strength, you can take Weapon Finesse and a Feycraft weapon and just go to town that way-- Inspire Courage should make up for the lower BAB, as does the fact that you'll only be doing one attack.

At that point you could just save yourself the feats and ability points and just rely entirely on Inspire Courage, if you have it. There's Cha-heavy characters who aren't bards after all, and DMs who don't allow Words of Creation and similar IC optimization for whatever reason.

Using PA with a one-handed weapon is pretty weak even with a full BAB class. You can't PA with a light weapon, so Feycraft is right out. You can't wield a rapier twohanded.
You may get away with an Elven Courtblade (the only finessable weapon that can be twohanded, afaik), but that costs you a feat again. And you still only get the one attack.

Combine it with little strength and low BAB and you may as well stop bothering and do something more useful with your standard actions instead of throwing valuable feats away to deal some inaccurate and low damage.

There is one way to deal good damage with a single attack: Iaijutsu Focus. You won't be setting any records but it's a way to deal acceptable damage without tailoring your whole build around it.
It's an adequate solution for a character like a bard or factotum that just wants a way to contribute without taking away too much from the rest of his build.
If you can deal with the hassle of having to resheat your weapon and getting your enemy flat-footed it's probably the best option to utilize the slippers.

[Dread_Head]

Using PA with a one-handed weapon is pretty weak even with a full BAB class. You can't PA with a light weapon, so Feycraft is right out. You can't wield a rapier twohanded.
You may get away with an Elven Courtblade (the only finessable weapon that can be twohanded, afaik), but that costs you a feat again. And you still only get the one attack.


Feycraft only makes a weapon light for the purposes of using weapon finesse with it, you can still power attack just fine.

There is another two handed exotic weapon that is finessable and comes with a wide range of other benefits, the spiked chain.

[Necroticplague]

There is another two handed exotic weapon that is finessable and comes with a wide range of other benefits, the spiked chain.

Which has the additional bonus of working with Shadow Hand.