Divine Eldritch Knight?

[InfinityArts]

Hello Playgrounders,

Just brainthunking, if the Eldritch Knight were to choose spells from the cleric/druid list instead of the wizard list. Ignoring the evocation/abjuration restriction (because none such exist in divine magic), what implications would result, from a balance perspective as well as a thematic perspective? Is this overstepping the paladin's roles?

What optimization options are now open because of this?

[Kane0]

It means the fighter can get his own damned bless.

Wouldn't be OP though, EK just doesn't have enough progression to capitalize nor does he have the potential that a paladin has for converting spells to damage. The worst thing I can think of currently is the fighter popping a guardians while in melee, since his concentration ought to be pretty good. But then again this is compared to having shield, absorb elements, mirror image, fireball, etc

[djreynolds]

War cleric and tempest as the chassis, and grab paladin for 6 levels for saves and the extra attack. Not too MAD, Strength, wisdom, and charisma fits the bill, you'll have heavy armor. Paladin and light cleric.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Yeah, I'm with djreynolds. If you want to play a fighter with some divine magic, paladin is right there.

[DanyBallon]

On the homebrew forum, we had a discussion about a what you're looking for, and from the different ideas I came up with this sub-class:


Templar
Your devotion to your deity guides you in battles.

Spellcasting Spell progression as the Eldritch Knight. Spellcasting ability score is Wisdom. You may select spells from the Abjuration and Evocation school and any cantrips on the Cleric spell list. The spell you learn at 8th, 14th and 20th level can be from any school of magic on the cleric spell list.
Divine Domain At 3rd level, choose a domain associated to your deity, you can add the domain spell list to the list of spell available for you to choose from.
Weapon Bound At 3rd level you get Weapon Bound as the EK ability (PHB p.75)
Magic Weapon Starting at 7th level your devotion let you infuse your weapon with divine magic. Once per rest, as a bonus action, your weapon becomes magically enchanted and gets +1 to Attack rolls and Damage rolls, this effect last for 10 minutes as long as you maintain concentration. At 16th level the bonus increase to +2.
Baneful Strike At 10th level, your indefectible conviction in your deity affects the morale of your opponents when you hit them. When you successfully hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw, if it fails, the creature must roll 1d4 and subtract the result from its next attack or saving throws whichever come first.
Divine Resurgence At 15th level, when you use Second Wind, you add your Wisdom modifier to the total hit points you recover and you may expend 1 spell slot and choose a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) within 60ft that you can see. Those creatures are also healed for the same amount.
Chosen Warrior Your deity graces you with uncanny prowess in combat. Beginning at 18th level, you add your charisma modifier to your attack roll and saving throws.


I limited spell access to Abjuration and Evocation school as the EK in order to prevent the fighter blessing himself. And those two school allow a nice mix of healing, debuffing (in the form of lesser restoration, banishment, remove curse, etc.) and protection.
Since cleric cantrip are less geared toward offense, the war magic of the EK was less effective, so I think allowing to turn your weapon magical in the same way magic weapon would but for a lesser duration could be a good replacement.
Baneful Strike is Bane that is always on but affects only creatures you successfully hit.
Divine Resurgence allow you to heal you ally through your Second Wind
And Chosen Warrior may be strong, but its a 18th level ability after all :smallwink:

[Daishain]

We just had this conversation concerning an EK drawing from the druid list. The end result is much the same. Worse overall spell list, better casting stat, incentive to dump or shift school restrictions. Largely thanks to the limited number of spells EK gets, this does not present a significant balance issue. And no, it would not be stepping on the pally's toes, as this move grants you none of the paladin's signature spells and abilities.

As for those suggesting Paladin: The Paladin is indeed a fighter with divine magic, but it is not a Fighter with divine magic. There is a distinct difference in both the fluff and mechanics of how they would play out. There may not be a huge number of players looking for that particular niche, but remaining flexible when they show is not going to hurt anything, at least not when proffered an easy to make adjustment like this.

[InfinityArts]

@djreynolds and Ninja_Prawn
Thanks for the suggestions, this is just theorycrafting, though.

@DanyBallon
Our dm is pretty resistant to any homebrew that's not his own, so I don't think it'll ever happen, but cool archetype!

@Daishain
Why is the druid list worse than the wizard list? While it's definitely smaller, there's a lot more concentration-buff style spells that synergizes better with the Fighter chassis than the blasty abjuration you get from wizard. Am I mistaken? Bless in and of itself seems godlike for fighters.

[DanyBallon]

@DanyBallon
Our dm is pretty resistant to any homebrew that's not his own, so I don't think it'll ever happen, but cool archetype!

The trick is letting see these idea separately and get him to think that he's the one who came up with the ideas :smallwink:

Also, EK is built around blasting with cantrip more than often when he can't get in melee, and with War Magic, cast a cantrip and still make a melee attack. Offensive divine cantrip are fewer. It may still work to just change the spell list to cleric/druid, but you won't get as much mileage out of it as an EK would, hence the reason for this homebrew.



@Daishain
Why is the druid list worse than the wizard list? While it's definitely smaller, there's a lot more concentration-buff style spells that synergizes better with the Fighter chassis than the blasty abjuration you get from wizard. Am I mistaken? Bless in and of itself seems godlike for fighters.

Giving too much buff spell to a fighter and there won't be no more need for him to rely on other caster. The game should be about team play, not about being able to solo any challenge thrown at you. :smallsmile:

[This be Richard]

Also, EK is built around blasting with cantrip more than often when he can't get in melee, and with War Magic, cast a cantrip and still make a melee attack. Offensive divine cantrip are fewer. It may still work to just change the spell list to cleric/druid, but you won't get as much mileage out of it as an EK would, hence the reason for this homebrew.

I'm the derp that started the previous thread about an "Eldritch Knight" variant that uses the druid spell list, and I'll admit, the cantrip thing is what makes me the most nervous about it. The player's using Thorn Whip as her offensive cantrip, and it just doesn't pack the same kind of punch -- or range -- she'd get off of a Firebolt or even a Ray of Frost. I have a hard time imagining that War Magic will be competitive with just going on a full attack in any but the rarest of circumstances.

Not sure what there is to do about it, though. The player definitely likes her Druidic Knight, even if it doesn't look like it'll work quite right, so I don't want to take it away from her. Still wish I could come up with a good fix, though.

[JoeJ]

I'm the derp that started the previous thread about an "Eldritch Knight" variant that uses the druid spell list, and I'll admit, the cantrip thing is what makes me the most nervous about it. The player's using Thorn Whip as her offensive cantrip, and it just doesn't pack the same kind of punch -- or range -- she'd get off of a Firebolt or even a Ray of Frost. I have a hard time imagining that War Magic will be competitive with just going on a full attack in any but the rarest of circumstances.

Not sure what there is to do about it, though. The player definitely likes her Druidic Knight, even if it doesn't look like it'll work quite right, so I don't want to take it away from her. Still wish I could come up with a good fix, though.

If she's happy with the character, and it's not affecting the enjoyment of the other players, leave it as it is. The point of the game is to have fun, not to meet some sort of numerical optimization standard, so it sounds like mission accomplished.

[DanyBallon]

I'm the derp that started the previous thread about an "Eldritch Knight" variant that uses the druid spell list, and I'll admit, the cantrip thing is what makes me the most nervous about it. The player's using Thorn Whip as her offensive cantrip, and it just doesn't pack the same kind of punch -- or range -- she'd get off of a Firebolt or even a Ray of Frost. I have a hard time imagining that War Magic will be competitive with just going on a full attack in any but the rarest of circumstances.

Not sure what there is to do about it, though. The player definitely likes her Druidic Knight, even if it doesn't look like it'll work quite right, so I don't want to take it away from her. Still wish I could come up with a good fix, though.

If you have a look at the Templar archetype a few post up, you could modify it, give him access to all druid spells (evocation and abjuration still give a decent spell list thought), instead of domain spell, he gets circle of the land circle spells. Leave Magic Weapon as is. Baneful Strike could be modify to Ensnaring Strike that would immobilize the target of a successful hit for a round. Divine Resurgence could be left as is, but change the name of the ability. And You'll need to come up for something to replace Chosen Warrior

[NNescio]

It's called a Paladin.

(Or alternatively, War Cleric.)

[Daishain]

It's called a Paladin.

(Or alternatively, War Cleric.)
Congratulations, yes, those options are in some ways like what the OP is asking for. Presumably however the OP is aware of those options, meaning one can assume they've been rejected for some reason.

There is a distinct fluff and mechanical difference between EK, Cleric, and Paladin. Giving an EK divine rather than arcane magic is not nearly enough to nullify those differences. Therefore, if said differences are important to the character concept (far from an unlikely situation), suggesting a cleric or paladin is a useless gesture.

[InfinityArts]

I'm not looking for a character to play, per se, just exploring an idea.

There's the full casters: wizards (arcane), sorcerers (arcane), clerics (divine), druids (divine), and to an extent the bard (whatever he wants)
The half-casters: warlocks (arcane), paladins (divine), rangers (divine)
And the niche casters: eldritch knights (arcane), arcane tricksters (arcane)

Since there are no niche casters on the divine side, I wanted to explore what something like that would look like (Templar above), and what new combinations/optimizations may be possible now that niche divine casters are thrown into the mix.

The aforementioned bless access on a combat chassis without requiring multiclass or magic initiate was a good combo, so is Guiding Bolt when used with War Magic. Guidance (later Enhance Ability) and Expertise means your Divine Trickster is pretty much invisible. Anyone has any other good combos?