OPed wizard advice (pathfinder)

[wildneb]

Afternoon all. I have been running a homebrew pathfinder campaign for a number of years now. The characters have just reached level 9 and mythic tier 2.

As I fear is inevitable in most games, the wizard is beginning to outshine the others as they become the meat shields to his glass cannon.

Are there any mechanics etc. anyone would be willing to highlight that could make the wizards spell casting a little less potent and give the others a chance to shine?

Ta.

[legomaster00156]

There's not enough information here. What is the Wizard doing to outshine the other classes? What spells is he using, is he a specialist, what are the other classes, etc.

[wildneb]

Sorry for the slow reply, rl got in the way...

The wizard is highly min maxed with a focus on summoning. Often crowding enemies so our melee characters struggle to get in. He also has enough blast spells to make he others damage seem insignificant.

Others are rogue, barb and two rangers. One melee, one ranged

[Kelb_Panthera]

Summoner wizards aren't too difficult to deal with.

Presuming he used the variant in UA, readied actions to disrupt casting with ranged attacks are an easy option. If he didn't it's even easier since he takes a whole round to cast a summon monster X spell, from the standard action to start casting until just before his initiative count on the next turn. No readied action needed. Dimension locked areas won't allow summoned creatures to appear either.

As for dealing with the summoned creatures, there's a couple options; the first and most obvious option is to add more minions to the enemy side to occupy the summoned creatures. The PC's can focus on the important enemies. The barb and rangers -should- be more effective killers than any summoned creature. There's also good old magic circle against <alignment> to hedge out summoned creatures. Finally, there's dismissal and banishment to get rid of them. There are a couple weapon properties that carry the desired effect.

Or, a tad obvious but hopefully the most effective option, just ask the guy to cool it with the summons.

[wildneb]

Thanks, some good ideas there. We only just realised recently that it takes him a whole round to summon, so will begin to use that to my advantage.

I figure reflex saves, Sr and Dr elemental Will help with blast spells.

[Azoth]

What optimized summoner wizard didn't take Acadame Graduate as a feat? Drops summon spells to a standard action.

Anyway, most summons even with augment summoning, (alignment of choice) summoning, and superior summons should be weak enough by comparison to party ECL that a few well placed blasts should ruin their day. BFC also shuts them down a lot more reliably than a PC.

So throw a few casters in the enemy composition and have them control/destroy the summons. The effects will still hamper and challenge the party, but will greatly reduce the power his summons have.

Hell even having an enemy caster throw up stone skin will neuter the damage of most beat stick summons.

[wildneb]

Fortunately, he hasn't spotted that fear yet...

Cheers azoth, will throw a Summon busting mage into my next encounter and see what happens.

[Azoth]

Fortunately, he hasn't spotted that fear yet...

Cheers azoth, will throw a Summon busting mage into my next encounter and see what happens.

Sweet! Let me know how it turns out.

Its my preferred method since no one can gripe about you neutering their build when EVERYONE took that same fireball/black tentacles/solid fog/ice storm/ect. to the face.

[Crake]

from the standard action to start casting until just before his initiative count on the next turn.

It's a full round action on your turn, not a standard action, unless you're also spending your standard action of the following round as well (since a full round action can be split up between two turns by spending a standard action on both turns).

[Boogastreehouse]

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I am of the opinion that most of the "problems" with wizards comes from DMs giving them too much downtime to play with.

How many encounters do you throw at the characters in a day? If the Wizard thinks she's just got to get through a couple fights before she gets a good night's sleep, she is going to throw spells around without a care and end up dominating all the fights. The check/balance that I feel everyone forgets: Fighters can fight all day long; Wizards have to manage their resources. Get the wizard used to the idea that encounters can happen one after another. Really show her that when it rains it pours, and she'll start to become a lot more stingy with her spells.

Here's a thing I do:

If your players are level 9 they are big shots. In many campaigns, 9th level adventurers are quite rare; depending on the particulars of your campaign, they're probably known for being movers and shakers, and people are probably starting to keep tabs on them. I like to let my players enjoy certain benefits from being powerful; authority figures granting them privileges hoping to lure them to their cause, wealthy merchants trying to be seen with them, etc. The downside of course is that bad guys—even guys the PCs barely know—will start scheming to take them out. Either for the prestige, or for all the gold and magic items the PCs have (really, it's usually both).

Once the characters get to such a high level, I tend to start showing them that people are paying attention to them. I ramp it up slowly, so they can adapt to this new cramp in their lifestyle, and I try to reward them for being proactive. If they figure out that a rival party of adventurers is investigating them, and manage to turn the tables, they deserve a reward. The important thing is to make the players aware that they can be attacked at any time. Especially if they're starting to get low on resources. I usually try to build level-appropriate encounters—the rival adventurers are often going to be weaker than the PCs, so they're going to wait and try to attack the PCs when they're already weakened from other encounters.

I try to mix it up. I usually try to give my players a few days, even weeks where nothing much happens, and then I give them several days in a row where the action never stops. The "nothing" days are for role-playing, research, shopping, traveling, exploring, intrigue—basically anything but combat. These days usually go by pretty fast. Then there are days where the players get into one fight, confrontation, mystery or disaster after another. In the city, make sure they know that there are always people paying attention to them. In the dungeon, make sure they know that just because they want to rest, doesn't mean the monsters are going to let them. If you get the players used to the idea that encounters have a tendency to snowball, and one fight tends to attract the attention of someone else, the Wizards will start conserving their spells and the fighters will find themselves much busier.


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[Kelb_Panthera]

A fighter's sword doesn't run out of swings but a fighter certainly runs out of HP. That's the limit on how many encounters a fighter gets each day just as spell slots limit spellcasters.

The catch that boogastreehouse is missing is that spellcasters, especially summoning specialists, get -way- more spells per day that allow them win more encounters than a fighter could reasonably hope to survive without magical support and healing.

Continuing to adventure on a day when your casters are out of spells and the DM is balancing encounters for a party with spellcasters is just foolish unless it's somehow unavoidable. You wouldn't make a fighter keep going with only 4 HP left, would you?

[Boogastreehouse]

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A fighter's sword doesn't run out of swings but a fighter certainly runs out of HP. That's the limit on how many encounters a fighter gets each day just as spell slots limit spellcasters.

The catch that boogastreehouse is missing is that spellcasters, especially summoning specialists, get -way- more spells per day that allow them win more encounters than a fighter could reasonably hope to survive without magical support and healing.

Continuing to adventure on a day when your casters are out of spells and the DM is balancing encounters for a party with spellcasters is just foolish unless it's somehow unavoidable. You wouldn't make a fighter keep going with only 4 HP left, would you?

That's totally true. I didn't mean to imply that I run the characters completely into the ground, day after day. Just that I keep them on their toes and wary of more encounters than they might otherwise expect.

I've seen (played in and run, myself) a lot of games where the GM lets the characters leave the Dungeon after a couple encounters, rest, and pick up where they left off fully refreshed the next day. You kind of have to let low-level characters get away with stuff like that sometimes, and I think it's easy for groups to unthinkingly let that sort of pacing persist into high levels. Just knowing that there's a possibility of more encounters, or that they might not get that full night of sleep, though, tends to keep the Wizards from blowing through their spells as quickly.

This doesn't bring the classes into complete balance of course (and I honestly wouldn't want to try to bring the classes into complete balance), but I feel that it is a good step that is often forgotten by GMs.


Edit: at the risk of rambling, I feel I could elaborate a bit more. My groups have often leaned away from endlessly healing the fighters during and after every fight, and more towards keeping the fighters & rogues so buffed that they often get through encounters relatively unscathed. I haven't worked out the math, as that's not my strong suit, but this seems more efficient and really seems to allow a group to keep going, encounter after encounter.

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