Interesting Contradiction.....

[Gavin Sage]

Okay I happened to notice this just now. Hinjo states in #411 that the whole castle is built around the the Sapphire on the throne. And that the Sapphire as the gate cannot in fact be moved, and Xykon concurs in another as its why he invades instead of just sneaking in since he can't just hang around a throne room for weeks.

Only check out this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Look at the end of the flashback. You see Soon handing over a large Sapphire to Shinjo's father and the same throne, without the Sapphire. So apparently the gate is in fact mobile. And essentially the whole defense of the city was pointless as they Sapphire could have been carted off. (Or this the comic wasn't planned so exactly that far in advance)

And on a side note it makes the notion of the castle being built around the gem rather sketchy too.

[Clamps]

The Sapphire's there. It's just drawn gray since otherwise it'd blur into the background in the crayonvision.

[Hiruma]

The Sapphire is still on that chair, the sapphire Soon is handing over is probably the one that indicates the command of the Sapphire Guard.

[Demented]

One thing:
Shojo's father may have been the one to put the sapphire there. The rift itself isn't mobile, but the rift was held in check by the throne until it could be totally contained by a specially-made sapphire... one that Soon had only just acquired.

Other thing:
It's not that great a leap that the sapphire might be valuable, if you have an entire order of Paladins named the Sapphire Guard. Then again, thieves probably aren't poetic enough to realize that "Sapphire" is not referring to the color of their cloaks. :smalltongue:

[Wyborn]

It didn't occur to anybody else that, after Xykon manages to take the city, finally gets to the sapphire, and has Redcloak examine it,

it'd come up blank?

Shojo's ghost might even appear to say "Gotcha!"

[chibibar]

this was brought up a while back by another poster, but most agree that either the sapphire is just a symbol of transfer of power (the leader of the paladin) and so forth.

The rift is not movable as I have said before on other post. the gate just keep the rift from getting larger. Of course now we have two rifts go uncheck. I wonder how long it will take for it to rip some more.

[Gavin Sage]

Thing is we actually see the rift inside the Sapphire at one point. I don't mind accepting alternate explanations as retcons though. Having exact details thought out so many strips in advance is hard to assure and having to rework a fair sized plot point just for one panel.... yeah.

[chibibar]

But we saw the rift inside the gem at the throne :) it is possible to use magic to cast the gem ON the rift and seal it in.

[Wyborn]

Truth be told, we only saw a blemish - not necessarily anything more than a flaw in the gem. Keep in mind we don't know it was the rift, it's just that everyone up to now has assumed as much.

[chibibar]

but this comic said it was the gate

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html

and this one proves they are trying to destroy the gate

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html

[Gavin Sage]

@Wyborn:

"The throne, the platform, even this entire capsule was built around that single sapphire"

Those words accompany the shot of the "blemish" I mean no offense but that is inconsistent with the art of OoTS and the blemish is like what we've seen of the rifts. And is major major misdirection for what purpose? So we can explain an error from over a hundred strips ago.

I mean what are you getting at?

[Wyborn]

I'm getting at the idea that

Shojo is an intense liar. We plainly see a panel in which the sapphire is not in the throne - if anyone's going to explain that away it can be the giant, but I'm not going to call it a coloring mistake until he acknowledges it as such. I don't think it beyond Shojo to just go on and lie to his nephew about it, and anyone too young to know better than him, up to and including O-Chul.

All I'm saying is that there's an equally good chance that the sapphire isn't the gate, and the rift is simply somewhere else. It would be immovable, yes, but we still have no particular reason to make anything more than assumptions either way.

[Kreistor]

Wow... reading so much into a single frame. That's some huge leap of logic there. You have to ignore, what, direct statements to the contrary to get there?

The gates are immobile. Any image that might be interpreted differently is a false interpretation.

The handing over of a sapphire from ruler to ruler is an excellent symbol of the transfer of leadership. It's a sapphire, just not the Gate: it's just a symbol of the gate.

[Wyborn]

Ignoring direct statements is one of the most important parts of dealing with an inconsistent narrator.

Not saying that my idea is true; simply saying that, with Shojo, we cannot take anything for granted.

[Kreistor]

Except that Shojo didn't say anything about how the transfer of power was enacted, because that didn't matter. The scribble is for us, and us only. There is no possibility for a lie, since the PC's didn't see what we saw. You might say that Shojo lied about the transfer of power to his father, but you can't say he lied about the sapphire gate being handed from Soon to his father, because he never said the gate was transfered, just "command of the Sapphire Guard".

[Wyborn]

My apologies for taking this in multiple parts. I really only have one thing to say, with a sub-response in the meantime.


Except that Shojo didn't say anything about how the transfer of power was enacted, because that didn't matter. The scribble is for us, and us only.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html

Not strictly true, if Shojo has an item allowing "Summon Plot Exposition" - which he would have to, otherwise we wouldn't have any pictures. :smallwink:


There is no possibility for a lie, since the PC's didn't see what we saw. You might say that Shojo lied about the transfer of power to his father, but you can't say he lied about the sapphire gate being handed from Soon to his father, because he never said the gate was transfered, just "command of the Sapphire Guard".

I'm sorry...what? That's not what I mean. That Shojo would lie about the sapphire being passed to his father wouldn't serve any purpose whatsoever, and there's no point in lying when it doesn't do anything.

What I'm saying is that he may be lying about the placement of the rift inside of the sapphire. Shojo is obviously an intense liar - this cannot b argued. That he would lie about the sapphire being passed to his father wouldn't serve any purpose - unless he was trying to protect the fact that he was lying about the location of the rift.

You make a good point for me, though: if we're the only ones who saw the scribbles and those are in fact the unfettered truth, it destroys the idea that the throne, room, castle, and city was built around the sapphire, because obviously it wasn't. One of these things is obviously untrue - the only question is which one it is. I'm not saying that either thing is true, I'm just saying no one can make more than a blind shot in the dark.

[Clamps]

You forget that Soon predates Shojo. The Ghost-Martyrs are guarding the throne room, and Soon isn't into the whole misdirection thing. He struck me as being that kind who just strikes me.

[Ichthys]

The manner in which the rifts are protected doesn't make sense if they are mobile. Why would all 5 have elaborate defenses built around them if one could simply move the rift to somewhere that nobody would ever find (say at the bottom of the ocean.)

[Wyborn]

Right, Soon definitely predates Shojo, but we don't know that the magic summoning the ghost-martyrs of the sapphire guard does - or that whatever it is that summons them isn't mobile.

I'm not saying the rift is mobile.

I'm saying that it's possible that Shojo was lying the whole time and that the rift is simply somewhere else.

There is no greater potential for misdirection than in placing one's greatest defenses and stories around something that is completely worthless.

Again: not saying it's so, just saying it's possible, and it's impossible to say for sure either way.

[happyturtle]

Soon tells the truth to Shojo's father: 'The gate is x'

Shojo's father tells the truth to Shojo: 'The gate is x'

Shojo lies to Hinjo, O'chul, and everyone else: 'The gate is y'

Hinjo tells what he believes is the truth to Roy: 'The gate is y'

The gate is certainly in the throne room, since Soon is hardly going to show up to defend a decoy gate, but it is possible that it may not be the sapphire.

[JohnnyPsycho]

For me, there is really no reason for me to not believe that the gate is in fact inside that gem atop the throne. Pretty much every bit of evidence so far makes it very likely.

The whole crayon-drawn "flashback" showing Soon passing the sapphire to Shojo's father is in and of itself fairly suspect, as I don't believe Shojo ever revealed to the OotS that the sapphire was the location of the gate... it was Hinjo, if I'm not mistaken, who gave us that information. It's possible that the "passing of the sapphire" part of the story was simply for the sake of the OotS, since Shojo probably didn't think it wise to reveal the sapphire's actual significance to an adventuring group of outsiders.

Is it possible that the gate is somewhere else, and that Shojo himself lied about its location to every paladin of the Sapphire Guard, as it's evident that at least Hinjo and O-chuul see the sapphire as its true location? I suppose anything's possible, sure, but I don't see it being likely at this point, and it seems equally unlikely that a rift in the fabric of reality would be easily transported anywhere...

[Setra]

Soon tells the truth to Shojo's father: 'The gate is x'

Shojo's father tells the truth to Shojo: 'The gate is x'

Shojo lies to Hinjo, O'chul, and everyone else: 'The gate is y'

Hinjo tells what he believes is the truth to Roy: 'The gate is y'

The gate is certainly in the throne room, since Soon is hardly going to show up to defend a decoy gate, but it is possible that it may not be the sapphire.
It's entirely possible, and an intereting theory.

Only time will tell.