Could a lasgun kill an ork in 1 shot?

[gooddragon1]

Imagine Torias Telion (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Torias_Telion) got bored one day, made a bet with a regiment of imperial guard, took a lasrifle (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun) (set to 150 shot capacity power setting) and shot to kill against an ork (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork) boy (the standard ork).

Would he be able to 1 shot kill the ork? Does it depend on the writers?

[Grim Portent]

Depends on the writer really.

In some books Orks nearly shrug off bolter fire, in others they die in droves to lasguns.

If Telion could hit them clean in the eye he could probably cause enough damage to the brain to kill them of course, and Boyz aren't big on eye protection.

[Seppl]

I am pretty sure that happens all the time in books featuring Guardsmen. The writer will probably say something like that the power of the Lasgun was set to maximum and the Ork was hit in the head. I do not have a particular passage in mind but I would just have a look at Gaunt or Cain stories featuring Orks. Something like that it bound to happen at some point.

[Ravian]

If you hit them in the right place. Orks are a mixture of fungus and animal, but even fungi have a "brain" of sorts. They can probably survive without most of it, but I'm sure there's at least some part that can take them out.

Otherwise you just need to do enough damage to the body. A limbless Ork may still survive (particularly if they get him to a painboy or just bolt some robot limbs on.) but they're not likely to still be able to fight until then (might want to keep away from the mouth though) so you can dispatch them at your leisure afterwards. (Preferably with fire)

[Cheesegear]

Officially, no. A Lasgun barely scratches an Ork. A normal Lasgun shot deals functionally no damage against even the most basic of Orks. It takes multiple and/or lucky shots to kill an Ork with a Lasgun.

EDIT: Yes, Orks have been known to recover from headshots.

[lord_khaine]

Is the dark heresy rules not the the most official reprecentation of how things are suposed to work?
How would it function there, could you kill an orc with a singel shot of a lasgun in that system?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Isn't a lasgun a submachine gun style weapon and therefore not capable of firing 1 shot anyway?

[Grim Portent]

Isn't a lasgun a submachine gun style weapon and therefore not capable of firing 1 shot anyway?

Most are semi-auto/full-auto rifles rather than submachine guns.

[Cheesegear]

How would it function there, could you kill an orc with a singel shot of a lasgun in that system?

No, and that's where I'm pulling my argument from in the first place. :smallwink:

A Lasgun does 1d10+3 damage, or, with average-to-max damage, 5.5, 6+3 = 9-13 damage on good days (~49% of the time).

A standard Ork has 13 Wounds, so, can you kill an Ork when you rolls max (13) damage with a Lasgun? Nope. Not even then.
Orks have a TB of 8, reducing their damaged by 8, and more if they're wearing a helmet. So, if the Lasgun does anything less than 'average' damage (which should be ~49% of the time), the Lasgun literally deals no damage to the Ork, even when shot in the head. Even then, with max damage (13), an Ork will reduce incoming damage by 8, to 5 damage, from 13 Wounds, an Ork isn't even half dead, even when shot in the head. We've seens Orks canonically in the fluff move around even after getting shot in the head (and the eponymous example is Ghazgkull Thraka himself, and he was shot with a real gun).

Could Telion, specifically, do it?
Even assuming that there is an over-sized Lasgun for the 7-8 foot tall Space Marine to use that the Imperial Guard carry around just for a random Space Marine's ego for when he shows up, Telion still has to make up that 8 damage (+/- helmet deduction) that all Orks naturally resist, minimum. Since a Lasgun isn't a Boltgun, Telion has no business ever learning how to use one, so that immediately hamstrings him in his ability to rack up damage via Bolter-only feats, so, fail...

Mighty Shot gives +2; 3-7 damage... Out of 13 Wounds.

No, not even close. Worse if the Ork is wearing a helmet or armour.

A Lasgun, fired by Telion, then shoots 3 shots in burst mode. 9-21 Damage has a fairly good chance of dropping an Ork (naked), but three shots is not the OP.


Most are semi-auto/full-auto rifles rather than submachine guns.

Lasguns have a safety feature which prevents them from shooting more than 3 shots in a burst, preventing them from over-heating.

[hamishspence]

I am pretty sure that happens all the time in books featuring Guardsmen. The writer will probably say something like that the power of the Lasgun was set to maximum and the Ork was hit in the head. I do not have a particular passage in mind but I would just have a look at Gaunt or Cain stories featuring Orks. Something like that it bound to happen at some point.

Cain taking a Warboss out with laspistol bolts to the head, in Death or Glory, springs to mind.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Since a Lasgun isn't a Boltgun, Telion has no business ever learning how to use one, so that immediately hamstrings him in his ability to rack up damage via Bolter-only feats, so, fail...

To be fair, lasguns are easy to use, he'd just need a bit of practice to get used to the nigh-instantaneous projectile speed. Telion might also have some experience with lascannons, but I don't know.

[TheThan]

I read the title as “could a lasagna kill an orc”, which brought up all sorts of scenarios in my mind.
An orc choking to death on a piece of lasagna because nobody knew the Heimlich.
A orc dying of food poisoning from eating a lasagna that was left out too long
And finally a lasagna leaping off the plate and attacking an orc like in one of those absurdist slapstick movies.
anyway I digress

I think it depends on Ork psionics belief. Just like how red paint makes their vehicles go faster, their never ending supply of ammo, and the capability of making their Ork hulks actually survivable in deep space. It comes down to whether or not an orc believes that a lasgun can kill him. If he thinks it can, then it will, if he thinks it can’t then it won’t.

[Cikomyr]

Officially, no. A Lasgun barely scratches an Ork. A normal Lasgun shot deals functionally no damage against even the most basic of Orks. It takes multiple and/or lucky shots to kill an Ork with a Lasgun.

EDIT: Yes, Orks have been known to recover from headshots.

Where do you get that?

A Lasgun is said to be an extremely powerful weapon compared to OUR standards. It can easily blow off someone's arm off with a single shot. Why couldn't it blow an orc's head in half?

[Cheesegear]

Where do you get that?

The 40KRPGs, which are canon.
inb4; No, the tabletop game isn't.


A Lasgun is said to be an extremely powerful weapon compared to OUR standards.

Compared to OUR standards, an Ork is an extremely resilient hybrid plant-fungus monster-beast that can regenerate from almost any injury - including headshots. What kills a human, doesn't kill an Ork.

[The Glyphstone]

Where do you get that?

A Lasgun is said to be an extremely powerful weapon compared to OUR standards. It can easily blow off someone's arm off with a single shot. Why couldn't it blow an orc's head in half?

Because GW fiction has no consistency. In some stories it blows limbs off on a hit, others it hits barely harder than a modern-day bullet would, so the fiction cannot be relied for accurate assessment. But in the tabletop wargame (which is the 'primary source' if anything can be said to meet that criteria), a lasgun is mechanically identical to an autogun - effectively a modern-day slugthrowing rifle - and even in the more nuanced, but less strongly canonical, RPG the lasgun and autogun are relatively close in power.

[Cheesegear]

But in the tabletop wargame (which is the 'primary source' if anything can be said to meet that criteria)

That's not true at all.
The tabletop wargame (i.e; Mechanics) is literally the worst fluff there is, the tabletop isn't designed to be fluffy (except when it is).

The 'primary source' is the fluff side of Codecies, which has nothing to do with the wargame. Like, at all. The current 40K Thread's title references this fact.

[The Glyphstone]

That's not true at all.
The tabletop wargame (i.e; Mechanics) is literally the worst fluff there is, the tabletop isn't designed to be fluffy (except when it is).

The 'primary source' is the fluff side of Codecies, which has nothing to do with the wargame. Like, at all. The current 40K Thread's title references this fact.

It's still the original source material - if you really want to go all the way back, Rogue Trader 1e (the 'first Codex', so to speak) also described las-guns as 'low powered, but reliable weapons' in its fluff section, and gave las-pistols and auto-pistols almost identical stats.

The fluff in isolation cannot be used as a trustworthy source because of its inconsistency, but it can be used in conjunction with other material, such as the game mechanics, to produce the 'best available' interpretation. And in this particular case, the fluff and mechanics agree when the fluff says that lasguns are not blow-your-limbs-off powerful, and cannot oneshot an Ork except in very rare circumstances (which the RPGs represent via Righteous Fury criticals).

And it's not like we can go to GW for a definitive answer, since their 'official stance' is deliberately as unhelpful as possible in this regard

[gooddragon1]

Okay, let's up the odds. The person firing the lasgun has not only Telion level marksmanship, but amazing psyker prescience beyond belief as well. Is there any precedent for increasing damage based on simply knowing where to shoot to improve damage (similar to insight bonuses to damage in 3.5 D&D)?

[Cheesegear]

Okay, let's up the odds. The person firing the lasgun has not only Telion level marksmanship, but amazing psyker prescience beyond belief as well. Is there any precedent for increasing damage based on simply knowing where to shoot to improve damage (similar to insight bonuses to damage in 3.5 D&D)?

No. A gun is a gun. You can't make it do more damage by pulling the trigger really, really hard. Which is why it doesn't matter if a normal Guardsman or Telion is pulling the trigger. That's not actually how guns work. 40K (post-2010, that is) is actually almost realistic now, at least in terms of physical feats.

At best there are more chances to get 'lucky' shots (e.g; Criticals), and stupid writer fiats that either set the Lasgun to 'full power' (stupid idea, and has only happened once or twice in ~25 years, because actually doing that requires a whole different ammo type and/or a specialised Lasgun designed for it, which is why it hasn't happened in the fluff in over a decade), or, removing the safeties allowing the Lasgun to fire more shots at a time until it overheats and explodes, which is a thing.

[Emperor Ing]

Hey Cheesegear! We can up the ante a bit! With a Long-Las from the follow-up 40k RPG Black Crusade, it adds the Felling (4) and Accurate qualities in addition to the Variable Setting rules which, when Overcharged, can boost a lasgun's damage and penetration by 2. With Felling (4) it negates 4 points of Unnatural Toughness. Since the Ork is statted in Dark Heresy i'm presuming 4 of its 4 points of toughness comes from Unnatural Toughness (+4) rather than (x2.) (The Black Crusade Ork Boy has only 6 points of toughness and UT (+2).) In addition to the 1 pen the Long-Las has by default, it gets +2 Pen from Overcharging. The Ork's Toughness has now been negated to one.

Because the Long-Las is Overcharged, it deals 1d10+5 damage. At maximum, it can do 15 damage. Negated by 1 toughness, it's now at -1 wounds. It's on Critical wounds, and taking the -1 won't kill the Ork unless the GM rules that non-Master NPCs die on 0 wounds. So congratulations! You now have a Lasgun that CAN, in fact, kill an ork with one shot!

But wait! There's more!

The Accurate quality from Black Crusade makes it so the more degrees of success you have on your shot, you deal additional 1d10 damage up to a maximum of 2d10. Likely to represent the MLG 360 Kwikscoperz who can take out a Boy through a shot to the eye. For those of you bad at math, that means an Overcharged Long-Las shot is now dealing 3d10+5 damage and 3 penetration against the Ork's 13 wounds and effective 4 toughness. If the Dark Gods bless your dice, that means you deal a maximum 35 damage. MORE Than enough to kill an Ork boy in one shot even if critical values are in play.

Obviously what I just listed above won't always happen in gameplay as there are a lot of variables and moving parts. But the question was: Could a Lasgun kill an Ork in one shot? I say the answer is "Yes."

[Cheesegear]

We can up the ante a bit! With a Long-Las...

See what you did there?


Could a Lasgun kill an Ork in one shot? I say the answer is "Yes."

Could?
Yes. Roll a 10 for damage (<10%). Then roll a 9+ (<2%), 7+6+ = 13+ Wounds
Not including rolling to hit on the second roll. However, if we assume that Telion has the Eye of Vengeance Talent (why not? It's a Talent specifically named after him), then you don't need to roll To Hit when you Righteous Fury.

So, 'technically' yes. Sure. There is a ~2% chance that a Lasgun could kill an Ork in one shot. But you don't really need to be Telion to do that. Anyone could do it, because that's actually how guns work.

[Emperor Ing]

See what you did there?

Err, does a long-las not count as a lasgun...?

[Cheesegear]

Err, does a long-las not count as a lasgun...?

A Long-Las is the Las-equivalent of a Sniper Rifle. That's why it has all those extra rules, doesn't fire in bursts, and 50% more range. :smallwink:

[Emperor Ing]

A Long-Las is the Las-equivalent of a Sniper Rifle. That's why it has all those extra rules, doesn't fire in bursts, and 50% more range. :smallwink:

It is still a lasgun for the same reason it's fair to consider a Barrett .50 cal a solid-projectile rifle. At least to me, it is. No, this doesn't include Lascannons, that's ridiculous. Basic weapons or smaller.

[Cheesegear]

It is still a lasgun for the same reason it's fair to consider a Barrett .50 cal a solid-projectile rifle.

Sure. I'm not saying that the Long-Las isn't a Las weapon. But a Long-Las being the same as a Lasgun is claiming is that a Barrett and a P90 are the same thing.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah see.. i also thought that chosing the Long-Las now were more or less the same as calling it quits, and just going for a lascannon instead.

Much better kill chance as well if you can manage to hit :smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

The 40KRPGs, which are canon.
inb4; No, the tabletop game isn't.



Compared to OUR standards, an Ork is an extremely resilient hybrid plant-fungus monster-beast that can regenerate from almost any injury - including headshots. What kills a human, doesn't kill an Ork.

Hmm.. There are multiple instances in fiction where an Ork is killed by a headshot. Orks still die from massive organ failure, but their spores will just create more Orks.

Just because it doesnt fit your little idea of canon doesnt mean we cant have more varying opinions.

[Killer Angel]

Cain taking a Warboss out with laspistol bolts to the head, in Death or Glory, springs to mind.

That was more the man doing the killing, rather than the weapon itself... :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Hmm.. There are multiple instances in fiction where an Ork is killed by a headshot.

Sure. But not by a Lasgun. At least, not without heavy writer fiat (e.g; Ciaphas Cain) or fluff that is long out of date (e.g; Death or Glory being written pre-5th Ed. fluff cleanup/revival).


Just because it doesnt fit your little idea of canon doesnt mean we cant have more varying opinions.

If you want to cop-out, and say 'Depends on the writer', fine. You do that. But provide which writer and which story it happens in. Otherwise it's just that. An opinion. I've provided hard numbers, from arguably one of the best fluff sources around (the 40KRPG), the Dark Heresy Core Rulebook, and Creatures Anathema if it helps. I'm not saying you can't have opinions, I'm saying you have to back them up.

My 'opinion', is that a standard Lasgun, using standard power setting (as per the OP), only has a ~2% chance to kill an Ork in one shot (relying on the Ork being naked or half-clothed), and I've provided numbers to back up my theory. Can a Lasgun kill an Ork? Yes. Absolutely. Happens all the time. Just probably not in one shot, which is the question the OP asks.

If you want to claim 'Depends on the writer', then...Whoever has the greatest fanboys wins, I suppose.

EDIT: The '150 charge capacity' the OP asks for is wildly out of date. The current Charge Pack holds only 60 Rounds, increasing it's output to 150 shots per pack would only make the Lasgun even weaker.

[Cikomyr]

The question wasnt "would". The question is " can"

So, yes. Period. A lasgun CAN 1-shot an Ork.

[Cheesegear]

So, yes. Period. A lasgun CAN 1-shot an Ork.

Yes, I know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19911593&postcount=21). ~2% of the time without fiat/BS.

[Cikomyr]

Therefore, you werent saying truth when you posted that:


Officially, no. A Lasgun barely scratches an Ork. A normal Lasgun shot deals functionally no damage against even the most basic of Orks. It takes multiple and/or lucky shots to kill an Ork with a Lasgun.

Or that edit here


EDIT: Yes, Orks have been known to recover from headshots.

Because we have records of an orc Warboss being killed by a laspistol headshot through the eye.

I can buy an orc surviving a minor headshot. Dont take me wrong. Like a bullet going through the side of the brain, that would kill a human.

But right center head mass? Nop. They need their brain to function.

[thorgrim29]

Actually, wouldn't a warboss be more vulnerable to las-weapon head-shots than a regular boy? They have so much hardware installed that the round could bounce around in their skull a bit by being deflected on metal parts before exiting or running out of power, it's not like brains are very hard or anything.

Also, Cain is Cain, he routinely downplays everything he does and also probably has a part of the Emperor helping him along. So it's a fair bet to say that he's not a good source for weapon power. I mean for Emprah's sake the guy thinks he's just a regular dude yet he duels chaos space marines and wins.

[Cikomyr]

Actually, wouldn't a warboss actually be more vulnerable to las-weapon head-shots than a regular boy? They have so much hardware installed that the round could bounce around in their skull a bit by being deflected on metal parts before exiting or running out of power, it's not like brains are very hard or anything.

Also, Cain is Cain, he routinely downplays everything he does and also probably has a part of the Emperor helping him along. So it's a fair bet to say that he's not a good source for weapon power. I mean for Emprah's sake the guy thinks he's just a regular dude yet he duels chaos space marines and wins.

Indeed. But being extremely lucky or blessed by the Emperor does not mean your laspistol is more powerful. A bullet will still be a bullet.

In fact, it just highlights the point in am trying to make: lasweapons are powerful, but even against ennemies as powerful as Orks, you need luck to score insta-kills. But insta-kills is definitely achievable. Las weapons are only flashlights compared to Eldritch Abominations, extremely beefed genetical monstrosities, or million-year old technologies.

And we can confirm that Cain only uses a laspistol. Only. Even the Inquisitor who review his memoirs confirms that he wont even accept hellfire upgrades because he doesn't want the extra weight, and he wont switch to overpowered charges or Bolt Pistol because he wants the higher magasine size.

Also, its often mentioned that the Spesh marines he scored wins against is only because they underestimates his skill. A Technmarine who got a scratch on his armor because of that mistake during training never got hit again.

So.. While i agree he is extremely awesome for a human, hia fighting capacities is not mary-sueish "able to outduel anyone". He is underestimated and get lucky breaks

[GloatingSwine]

But right center head mass? Nop. They need their brain to function.

It's not like they use it for much....

[Cikomyr]

It's not like they use it for much....

XD

Nah. Orcs are cunning. Not necessary brilliant, but certainly cunning.

..okay, well, Nobs are.

[Emperor Ing]

I suspect Ork brains work the way Ork technology does. If you believe it's still in your head and intact, it works.

[Bulldog Psion]

Not really a huge fan of the 40K universe, though I played a few games when I was younger and still have a painted Space Marine force boxed up somewhere in a closet ...

But I'm wondering -- if the orks are this indestructible, how do they NOT rule the galaxy? They seem to be extremely numerous and their tech works because they believe it does, too. These seem like quite hefty advantages.

[Almarck]

I believe "Depending on the Writer" is kinda neccesary in regards to Warhammer 40k... the canon is kinda vast that I honestly wonder when they'll need to start separating canon heirchies like Starwars did.

While I haven't read any books myself, there's probably instances of orks and even space marines dying to a lucky hit from lasgun fire.


Also: the reason Orks don't rule the galaxy is because their entire civilization is so divided in infighting that they literally cannot rule over a planet unless someone was strong enough to beat the other guys into serving him.

[Seppl]

Also, while on average you may need many shots from a lasgun to kill an ork, that is not really a problem. The lasgun is after all a rapid fire weapon; there are MANY lasguns in an Imperial Guard regiment; and the lasgun is amongst the weakest weapons in WH40K. Orks are hardly invincible compared to the firepower available to WH40K armies. Actually, they are rather on the soft side when compared to both supermen and aliens in power armor or self-repairing robots made of almost indestructible metal.

[The Glyphstone]

Also because they aren't that indestructible - it's just that the weapon being used here to compare against them is one of the weakest weapons humanity has to give its soldiers. Bigger weapons work just fine against orks, though even then they still take a lot of killing.


I believe "Depending on the Writer" is kinda neccesary in regards to Warhammer 40k... the canon is kinda vast that I honestly wonder when they'll need to start separating canon heirchies like Starwars did.

Never, really. The official policy of GW with regards to canon is 'everything is canon, not everything is true'; specifically, that all fluff and story material, including codices and novels, are written by unreliable narrators. Everything and nothing is canon simultaneously, while possibly also being false or inaccurate. A very handy policy for the writers who don't need to worry about conflicts in continuity, incredibly frustrating for fans who do nothing but worry about them.

[Cheesegear]

But I'm wondering -- if the orks are this indestructible, how do they NOT rule the galaxy?

They kind of do. Remembering that the (Kr)orks were created to fight Necrons. Necrons went to sleep, thinking that the Orks would eventually die out because Necrons couldn't win the fight, so simply decided not to fight at all. Orks didn't die out.
Millenia later, Horus beats a single Warboss (who nearly kills him), and beats back an Ork threat, thinking that they'll eventually die out. They don't.

Currently, Ghazgkull Thraka is carving out an entire Sector of space for Orks (currently, it's almost as big as Ultramar (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Empire_of_Octarius), and only getting bigger). The Imperium can not take back this Sector without catastrophic casualties. Octarius belongs to the Orks. Orks are slowly starting to rule the galaxy, thanks to said Ghazgkull (who, incidentally, was shot in the head by a Boltgun and has lost 30% of his brain matter and is still the most deadly Ork in existence).

In the future, the only thing that will save The Milky Way from Tyranids, are the Orks. As per the Kryptman Gambit.


A very handy policy for the writers who don't need to worry about conflicts in continuity, incredibly frustrating for fans who do nothing but worry about them.

Not really. It just means that you have to read more books to find consistency. If five writers write one thing, but one writer writes another thing. The 'one' is less consistent, and therefore less meaningful (e.g; Abnett). Also, now that we have the 40KRPGs (and dozens of sourcebooks which are practically nothing but fluff), we have established baselines for what certain people and items can realistically do, most of the time, without writer fiat or plot BS, with minimal bias. Because you can begin to apply 40KRPG rules to nearly everything (I honestly don't know if there's a subject that a 40KRPG sourcebook hasn't touched on), so everything is following the same rules, and there's no 'Depends on the writer' arguments to be made, because that argument doesn't mean anything when you have an established and accepted baseline for how stuff works.

[hamishspence]

Keep in mind that the Ork Empire of Octarius existed long before Ghazghull - it's just that he's taken it over and is beginning to expand it.

[GloatingSwine]

But I'm wondering -- if the orks are this indestructible, how do they NOT rule the galaxy? They seem to be extremely numerous and their tech works because they believe it does, too. These seem like quite hefty advantages.

Because all the actual guns in the 'verse are a lot bigger than lasguns.

Also, they're far too disorganised, barring certain warbosses they're almost as happy fighting each other as anyone else.

And when they have those particularly cunning warbosses they usually like to leave the interesting opponents alive so they can fight them again next time.

[Cheesegear]

Because all the actual guns in the 'verse are a lot bigger than lasguns.

The real answer is that there aren't enough of them in one place, at one time to pose a major threat, and they like to infight a lot.
Ghazgkull is proving that, by uniting a whole bunch of Orks in the same place, behind one leader, and he is exapanding his Empire. Not just stalemating like the Tau are doing.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Also: the reason Orks don't rule the galaxy is because their entire civilization is so divided in infighting that they literally cannot rule over a planet unless someone was strong enough to beat the other guys into serving him.

Orks are also a raider kultur. They often just collect tribute or launch hit and run attacks. Only a minority of Warbosses have any interest in conquest.

Ork navigation also sucks. Their Wyrdboyz aren't as good as the Astromicon. So even when they organise wide military fronts they don't organise well. Fighting an Intergalactic war is complicated, the big Ork Waaaghs generally just all try and go in the same direction and sweep everything before them, accurately striking strategic targets on a wide front pushes their navigation abilities too hard.


They kind of do. Remembering that the (Kr)orks were created to fight Necrons. Necrons went to sleep, thinking that the Orks would eventually die out because Necrons couldn't win the fight, so simply decided not to fight at all.

The Krork never forced the Necrons into hibernation. Most Necron sources don't seem to have had much respect for the Krork who were probably no more dangerous than the Eldar who also didn't interest the Necrons much. Enslavers were the Necron's main enemy in the old fluff. The new fluff was so incoherent and torturous to read I assumed that they just went to sleep for a laugh or something. According to Lexicanum, it was the Eldar who defeated the Necrons after rebelling against the C'tan weakened them.


I think it depends on Ork psionics belief. Just like how red paint makes their vehicles go faster, their never ending supply of ammo, and the capability of making their Ork hulks actually survivable in deep space. It comes down to whether or not an orc believes that a lasgun can kill him. If he thinks it can, then it will, if he thinks it can’t then it won’t.

Ork ships survive in Deep Space because Orks have the best forcefield tech in the 40k setting.

Red Paint doesn't even give a whole 10% speed boost.

Orks have a never ending supply of ammo because they have swarms of slaves running around carrying stuff for them.

One source claimed that Ork guns only work due to Ork psychic power. They also claimed that it takes the presence of a large number of Orks to build up this effect. A later source claimed that Ork guns don't even have moving parts in them, but that's clearly flanderisation and should be ignored with other stupid bits of canon. Techpriests might often fail to understand how Ork force-field and teleporters work, but Orks are better at Teleportation and Force-fields than the tech priests are (being slightly psychic might help here but they're not teleporting through psionics alone) and many Techpriests suck at understanding anything. Even the smart scientifically minded Techpriests can't explain most human tech. Tech Priests don't know how Jokero get their digi-weapons so powerful either and Jokero tech probably has the same origin as Ork tech.

Certain Tech Priests might say that Ork tech only works because Orks believe it does, but if you trust Tech Priests you're an idiot. Official Imperial reports also say that Tau Fire Warriors can be defeated by loud noises and that's about as trustworthy.

Techpriests might have failed to get some items of Ork tech to work, but Techpriests don't like pushing on buttons without saying the right prayer first. The few bits of Xeno-tech they do sanction for use they take centuries to work out how to safely deploy them and they only do that when the Xeno-tech is really needed. Orks don't have any tech that the Imperium doesn't have, only slightly better versions of force fields and teleporters. Its not like the Priests who bothered studying Ork tech were stated to be especially smart tech priests. A serious research project by top Tech Priests to incorporate Ork improvements into human tech would probably go against human pride.

Its not like Humans in the 40k don't have plenty of stuff that only works because they believe in it either. Force Weapons and Imperial navigation also rely on psychic powers. The Tech Priest's religion probably makes them predisposed to say "maybe its subconsciously powered by Ork belief" when they actually mean "I just don't know okay!"

[The Glyphstone]

WAAAAAAUGH power is legitimately a thing, it just gets flanderized every so often like that 'no moving parts' ridiculousness you mentioned. Ork weapons are crude, sloppy, inaccurate, and exceedingly prone to misfires or jamming - except in the hands of an Ork (well, they're still crude and sloppy, but that's it - the inaccuracy is because Orks suck at gunnery). It's not so much that Ork technology only works because they believe in it - humans can use Ork guns or Ork vehicles, assuming they're strong enough to lift the darn things - but that it works better, the WAAAAAUGH effect turning barely-functional machinery into working weapons.

[GloatingSwine]

Orky guns are inaccurate in large part because most Orks think the point of a gun is to make lots of loud noise whilst you get up close and proper.

Any danger they pose to the enemy is a side effect.

[lord_khaine]

The Krork never forced the Necrons into hibernation. Most Necron sources don't seem to have had much respect for the Krork who were probably no more dangerous than the Eldar who also didn't interest the Necrons much. Enslavers were the Necron's main enemy in the old fluff. The new fluff was so incoherent and torturous to read I assumed that they just went to sleep for a laugh or something. According to Lexicanum, it was the Eldar who defeated the Necrons after rebelling against the C'tan weakened them.

Currently it was that the Eldars did not take nicely to the Necrons killing off their old one mentors, and so they started a campaign of genocide that forced the necrons to go into hibernation to try and wait it out.

[Cikomyr]

One source claimed that Ork guns only work due to Ork psychic power. They also claimed that it takes the presence of a large number of Orks to build up this effect. A later source claimed that Ork guns don't even have moving parts in them, but that's clearly flanderisation and should be ignored with other stupid bits of canon. Techpriests might often fail to understand how Ork force-field and teleporters work, but Orks are better at Teleportation and Force-fields than the tech priests are (being slightly psychic might help here but they're not teleporting through psionics alone) and many Techpriests suck at understanding anything. Even the smart scientifically minded Techpriests can't explain most human tech. Tech Priests don't know how Jokero get their digi-weapons so powerful either and Jokero tech probably has the same origin as Ork tech.

Certain Tech Priests might say that Ork tech only works because Orks believe it does, but if you trust Tech Priests you're an idiot. Official Imperial reports also say that Tau Fire Warriors can be defeated by loud noises and that's about as trustworthy.

Techpriests might have failed to get some items of Ork tech to work, but Techpriests don't like pushing on buttons without saying the right prayer first. The few bits of Xeno-tech they do sanction for use they take centuries to work out how to safely deploy them and they only do that when the Xeno-tech is really needed. Orks don't have any tech that the Imperium doesn't have, only slightly better versions of force fields and teleporters. Its not like the Priests who bothered studying Ork tech were stated to be especially smart tech priests. A serious research project by top Tech Priests to incorporate Ork improvements into human tech would probably go against human pride.

Its not like Humans in the 40k don't have plenty of stuff that only works because they believe in it either. Force Weapons and Imperial navigation also rely on psychic powers. The Tech Priest's religion probably makes them predisposed to say "maybe its subconsciously powered by Ork belief" when they actually mean "I just don't know okay!"

Everything in 40K has been hit by flanderisation at one time or another.

Space Marines have becomed absolute juggernaut that can easily survive an entire gun clip emptied in their head. And a few dozens can wipe out a planet populated by millions of people.

Imperial Guards are meant to do nothing but blind the ennemy with their flashlights while trying to drown them under their corpses..

Tau have an extensive program of brainwashing concentration camps that deprive any non-Tau citizen of their freedom.

Etc.. Etc..

[Hiro Protagonest]

Space Marines have becomed absolute juggernaut that can easily survive an entire gun clip emptied in their head. And a few dozens can wipe out a planet populated by millions of people.

What is the exact capability of, say, a dozen space marines (roughly the number you can have on the field in DoW2)? Versus orks, eldar, tau.

[Cheesegear]

What is the exact capability of, say, a dozen space marines (roughly the number you can have on the field in DoW2)?

Space Marines follow the metric system, they come in multiples of 10 - not in dozens. :smallwink:
I've ran the numbers on Space Marine damage output before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18910628&postcount=62).

If a Lasgun does an average damage of 9, a Tactical Marine (w/ Bolter Mastery) deals an average damage of 21 damage per shot. Hitting 3 times in a burst of 4 shots. With a TB of 8, 21-8 equals exactly 13 damage per shot. Therefore, on average, a Boltgun - fired by a Space Marine with training (i.e; Not a Scout) - with kill an Ork in one shot, provided the Ork isn't wearing any armour. On average. Which means there are certainly times where a Boltgun doesn't kill an Ork in one shot, which is also represented in the fluff by several writers (i.e; Not just one).

Assuming the Sergeant has a Boltgun;
(21 x 3) x 8 = 504
Plasma Gun will hit once in a burst, dealing an average of 15 damage.
A Krak Rocket will hit once, dealing an average of 30 damage.

A Tactical Squad (10 Marines) will deal an average damage of ~550 damage in a matter of seconds. While that certainly looks impressive, the numbers are actually limited by ammo; What you're actually seeing, is a Tactical Marine squad killing ~25-30 Orks (in seconds), depending on the Missile explosion and how clustered the Orks are. Providing that each Marine aims at a different target and burst fire actually hits more dudes than it should. The squad could easily be expending 24 Boltgun rounds and killing as few as 10 Orks.
When not talking about 'the tabletop' (i.e; The worst metric), the main limitation to killing Orks is that they have more bodies than Marines have bullets. The standard Marine only has a few reloads, since Marines are a surgical tool, and not a sledgehammer. Marines typically aren't used for protracted wars - that's what Imperial Guard are for. Or, Marines 'cycle out' their Companies and squads while new Marines come in from new Companies - or even other Chapters.

An Ork generally wont hit anything at all with his Shoota, even when firing on Full-Auto. However, if he does magically hit something, a Shoota does about as much damage as a Lasgun. Despite what the tabletop tells you (:smallyuk:), Ork strength really is in their Choppas. Mostly. A single Ork wont drop a Space Marine in Melee, not easily, at least. But that's moot, because that's not how Orks fight. The Space Marine should be fighting five Orks - with more in the back.

Eldar Guardians are fairly strong. Well, not really. It's the gun that is scary. While the Shuriken itself doesn't do a lot of damage (about as strong as a Lasgun), Shurikens tear through armour like nobody's business. The phrase 'death by a thousand paper cuts' springs to mind. While a Shuriken wont kill an Ork in one shot (let alone a Space Marine), they'll put a serious hurt on him. Two shots, easy.

Tau are...Devastating. The Pulse Rifle (a Fire Warrior's standard weapon) has the range of most Imperial Sniper Rifles, does an average of 15 damage per shot and penetrates armour, and reloads really quickly. While a Pulse Rifle isn't much damage-wise compared to a Boltgun, their use is in their massive range and fast reloads.

[Cikomyr]

What is the exact capability of, say, a dozen space marines (roughly the number you can have on the field in DoW2)? Versus orks, eldar, tau.

I dont doubt they are excellent. If not absolutely fantastic supersoldiers.

Doesnt mean it make sense to give them more power and resilience than Superman.

I mean.. Okay. They already have the single-best techs the Imperium has to offer, straight from Humanity's height. This tech is perfectly adapted to them.

Add a massive strenght improvement. Improved reflexes, stamina. Reduced (or removed) need to sleep. If you can find a way to (somehow) remove the absurdly high demand in calories required by such strong and large bodies, do it. Otherwise they still need lots and lots of food.

Add other problems that any soldier would face; they are immune to sickness, poison. They heal their wounds at higher rate, and if remember right, they have redundant organs to improvr their survival rate to internal damage. They are indoctrinated to the point of never running away and always following orders.

All that would probably make the cream of any army possible. But i think a point that is usually understated should be addressed:

Every single one of these full-fledged marine has already personally accumulated more battlefield experience than the large majority of battle-hardened veteran. As part of their training.

I cannot find the lenght of Scout training duty, but it has to be rather long, seeing the longevity of the Astartes. Every marine is a super-experienced soldier, still in the peak of their physical shape. In my opinion, that, above all else, is what makes them such a supreme fighting force.

They dont need the silly fanboyish "they can survive a full clip into their head!!!". Thats just silly, and it attribute comic book-like degrees of invulnerability to soldiers who, frankly, dont need it. It just reeks of writers with little imagination.

[Cheesegear]

I cannot find the lenght of Scout training duty, but it has to be rather long, seeing the longevity of the Astartes.

Space Marines are Pokemon Trainers. They get picked up around 10-12 years old, and finish up in 8-10 years, depending on Chapter, culminating with the addition of the Black Carapace (that's their 'reward' for being not dead), which gets fitted once the teenager stops growing - post-adolescence. They could potentially be Scouts for long after receiving the Black Carapace (some Marines just don't like Power Armour, and/or are really good at Stealth and shooting Rifles and/or there may not just be enough places open in the actual Reserve Companies...Though that last one is rare), but their 'training period' is considered complete once they get the BC.

Point is, training takes 8-10 years or so.


They dont need the silly fanboyish "they can survive a full clip into their head!!!".

Actually, getting shot in the head is one of the only things that can kill a Space Marine. Not always. But they definitely can't survive a full clip.

[Almarck]

WAAAAAAUGH power is legitimately a thing, it just gets flanderized every so often like that 'no moving parts' ridiculousness you mentioned. Ork weapons are crude, sloppy, inaccurate, and exceedingly prone to misfires or jamming - except in the hands of an Ork (well, they're still crude and sloppy, but that's it - the inaccuracy is because Orks suck at gunnery). It's not so much that Ork technology only works because they believe in it - humans can use Ork guns or Ork vehicles, assuming they're strong enough to lift the darn things - but that it works better, the WAAAAAUGH effect turning barely-functional machinery into working weapons.

Isn't there that one story about an Ork flying a jet without any fuel?

[Cheesegear]

But I'm wondering -- if the orks are this indestructible, how do they NOT rule the galaxy?

Just in time...

Black Library announced yesterday/today (being on GMT+10 time is weird) that 2016 will feature 12 novels in 12 months about The Beast (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Beast), an Ork who almost literally does take over the Galaxy.
EDIT: But it turns out that not all 12 books will be about The Beast specifically, just the time period when Orks nearly ruined everything.

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't there that one story about an Ork flying a jet without any fuel?

From the Deff Skwadron comics, I believe, yes - a Fighta-Bomma's fuel line is cut mid-battle, but because the pilot doesn't know about it, the engine keeps on functioning despite a lack of fuel. I'm uncertain whether to classify that as full Flanderization or not, because it is somewhat in the middle; an Ork 'knows' enough about guns that his subconscious can't turn a metal box with a hole in one end into a gun, nor can he shoot a real gun with unlimited ammo - but things he doesn't 'know' (like that his fuel line is cut, or that he's lost track of his ammo expenditure in the excitement and is technically out of ammo, or that Humongous Mecha are unrealistic enough when they're not literally held together by rivets and steered with giant levers) can be patched over by WAAAAAAAUGH power if there are enough Orks in the vicinity.

[Cikomyr]

To be fair, the "control" of Ork titans with levers is one of those things i can totally see with a straight face.

Just imagine the Titan being controlled through the Waaaaaagh; sort of a psychic interface between it and its mekboy

[Almarck]

To be fair, the "control" of Ork titans with levers is one of those things i can totally see with a straight face.

Just imagine the Titan being controlled through the Waaaaaagh; sort of a psychic interface between it and its mekboy

It's arguably less ridiculous than the tendacy of imperial ships to use slave labor to load its guns.

[Seppl]

Actually, controlling huge machines via levers and manually reloading large guns is something that is still done in our world right now.

[GloatingSwine]

Actually, controlling huge machines via levers and manually reloading large guns is something that is still done in our world right now.

We're not quite loading space torpedoes the size of railway locomotives with teams of slaves pulling on chains though.

[snowblizz]

Only because slavery is outlawed, More or less.


Though there was a thread in Mad Science about a supposed American space fleet so maybe they do and we just don't know about it.

Remember, for the Emprah! Might save your life knowing that one day.

[teh]

It's arguably less ridiculous than the tendacy of imperial ships to use slave labor to load its guns.

i mean, greeks had steam engine (well, primative steam engine), and still used slave labor. it's not its impossible the empire has the ppl to make that seem good, esp because they lose tech every year.

[Cikomyr]

i mean, greeks had steam engine (well, primative steam engine), and still used slave labor. it's not its impossible the empire has the ppl to make that seem good, esp because they lose tech every year.

I am pretty sure the Empire's industrial system is more energy-efficient than.. Ancient Greece Steampower..

[GloatingSwine]

i mean, greeks had steam engine (well, primative steam engine), and still used slave labor.

It's not quite accurate to say that the ancient greeks had "steam engines", they had a few toys like the antikythera mechanism, but their metallurgy wasn't up to producing the kind of pressure vessel you need for a steam engine to do any interesting work. (Poorly cast pressure vessels tend to explode quite violently).

[Cikomyr]

It's not quite accurate to say that the ancient greeks had "steam engines", they had a few toys like the antikythera mechanism, but their metallurgy wasn't up to producing the kind of pressure vessel you need for a steam engine to do any interesting work. (Poorly cast pressure vessels tend to explode quite violently).

Plus, I don't think the Greeks had developped the secret of the condensation machine like Watt did, which made this entire Steam Engine thingy much more efficient