Combining Alchemy and Brewing Potions?

[Seharvepernfan]

Craft (Alchemy) is a rarely used skill. The people that can use it (arcane casters) rarely have much use for it themselves, since their spells do the same things (but better, if later at first), and few players want to set aside time in-game to make the stuff.

Brew Potion is considered a weak option, since scrolls and wands are much more cost effective. Basically, this feat is charity for non-casters (you could argue that having a potion in a tight spot is better than a scroll, but eh).

Personally, I love the way potions were done in 2nd edition; they were powerful, not always duplicated by spells, and (I'm not sure about this part) created by alchemy. I can't recreate the "uniquely powerful" part in 3.5, but I can make alchemy and potions better: let's look at the elder scrolls games. Alchemy is a skill that anybody can use to make buffing potions and debilitating/harming poisons. In D&D alchemy is used to create grenades and bombs. I'll leave craft (poison) as it is and combine the potions with the bombs for a new alchemy skill.

1: Everybody has access to the alchemy skill, since it is a type of Craft. No spellcasting required.

2: No feat is necessary to create potions or elixirs (one-use wondrous items).

3. No exp cost is associated with the brewing of alchemical items.

It just takes time, money, and skill.

(I would say DC 10 + 5/level of the spell, with the regular costs)

Thoughts?

[legomaster00156]

Well, it definitely needs a cap on the level of spell you can make, or you'll see people pumping it to make brews emulating level 9 spells at level 5. I would say it can make potions emulating spells with a cap at 1/3 your total ranks in the skill, and a complete cap of no higher than a level 7 spell regardless of ranks. Spells are treated as the highest level they'd be cast at. (If a spell is a level 4 Paladin spell, level 5 Wizard spell, and level 6 Cleric spell, it has to be brewed as a level 6 spell.)

[SangoProduction]

Well, it definitely needs a cap on the level of spell you can make, or you'll see people pumping it to make brews emulating level 9 spells at level 5. I would say it can make potions emulating spells with a cap at 1/3 your total ranks in the skill, and a complete cap of no higher than a level 7 spell regardless of ranks. Spells are treated as the highest level they'd be cast at. (If a spell is a level 4 Paladin spell, level 5 Wizard spell, and level 6 Cleric spell, it has to be brewed as a level 6 spell.)

I think I agree with that. I wouldn't neccesarily hard cap it, though. I mean, at 27 ranks, you'd need to be level 24 just to "create" level 9 spells, you need to be level 21 to do level 8.

At epic levels spell casters can do much worse than 9th level spells.

Also, how about "anyone who takes Skill Focus: Alchemy" can create a potion of 1 higher spell level than their ranks would normally allow. (Still must roll to actually create the potion, but still.) Or halve the cost of the potion? Just show that feat a little love?

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, it definitely needs a cap on the level of spell you can make, or you'll see people pumping it to make brews emulating level 9 spells at level 5.

Who cares?

Of course people can break the game, it doesn't mean a DM will allow it.

[SangoProduction]

Who cares?

Of course people can break the game, it doesn't mean a DM will allow it.

When rules are easily broken, that indicates a failure in the rules.

[Seharvepernfan]

When rules are easily broken, that indicates a failure in the rules.

That's like saying a barbarian is broken because a shock-trooper valorous leap-jumper whatever whatever whatever can do 800 damage in one hit. If a DM wants to allow tons of splat material and is okay with cheesy stuff, then let them have their 9th level potions early.

For the rest of us, ranks + Int + 0-6 or so misc bonus is a good enough balancing act.

[Afgncaap5]

Craft (Alchemy) is a rarely used skill. The people that can use it (arcane casters) rarely have much use for it themselves, since their spells do the same things (but better, if later at first), and few players want to set aside time in-game to make the stuff.

Brew Potion is considered a weak option, since scrolls and wands are much more cost effective. Basically, this feat is charity for non-casters (you could argue that having a potion in a tight spot is better than a scroll, but eh).

I totally I agree. I love alchemy (https://craterlabs.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/magical-mondays-alchemical-secrets-101/) and (https://craterlabs.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/blood-cauldrons/) potions (https://craterlabs.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/magical-mondays-the-brewers-bonsai/), and I think they're vastly underused. I like how 2e did things more than how 3.5 does things, but I also like how 3.5 does things, so I generally allow Brew Potion to work in both ways. Basically, any "Wondrous Item" that looks like a potion *is* a potion in my games. I also like some obscure uses for alchemy (the Book of Challenges, for instance, has a bugbear wizard/alchemist who changed his potions so that non-goblinoids will become sick if they try to use the potions he makes.)

I don't know about making it a non-caster feat... but I *do* think that Alchemy should be a non-magical skill. As for the XP costs... I think if you have any magic item require XP costs, then you should probably also have it for potions. However, I think it makes sense to have some very simple potions or alchemical items that wouldn't require penalties. (For instance, I could see a Cure Lesser Wounds potion that restores 1d4 hit points not requiring XP, even though it does more than the Cure Minor Wounds spell.)

[ericgrau]

It still takes way too long if you use the skill crafting rules. You need to bring it to magic item crafting speed; a potion a day. Also remember people can and should take a 10 on the check.

The feat really is pretty useless for PCs. While 50 gp potions can easily be worth buying at high enough level, and eventually 300 gp potions too, the money saved by the feat is too piddly to be worth it. Yes making the ability easier to get is a good idea. And as easy as it is to get skill ranks, it still takes a day per potion. Blowing skill ranks and downtime to save a few hundred gp and to save trips to large cities is pretty fair.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Craft (Alchemy) is a rarely used skill.

You've never really looked at alchemical items, have you? They're incredibly useful, and making them yourself is both cheaper than buying and frees you from being dependent on local suppliers.

Most of my characters take Magical Training if they don't have spellcasting abilities otherwise, mostly to make their own alchemical items (and for Prestidigitation).
Carrying around an alchemy kit isn't much of a problem as soon as you have a Handy Haversack, and the gold cost soon stops mattering. Even if you don't have much time, a eternal wand of Unseen Crafter takes care of that.

If your group rarely uses alchemy i'd say it's mostly caused by a lack of information, not alchemy being useless.
I suggest taking a look at Shax's Indispensible Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29) for a start.

Everybody already has access to alchemy. It costs a feat for noncasters, but that's hardly insurmountable. And they wouldn't benefit from being able to brew potions anyway because they have no spells to put in. Unless you suggest that anyone can brew a potion of any spell whenever they want?

And alchemical items cost no XP anyway, because they're not magical.


As for the rest of your post, i can agree on removing the spellcasting requirement for Craft (Alchemy).

The rest not so much though. Brew Potion has only one problem: It's not cost effective. There's no need to remove the feat requirement, unless you also remove it from Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand and Craft Staff.

Removing the limitations on what spells can be put into potions is even worse, especially if you can just craft all your spells into potions at the end of the day for negligible cost. It would throw caster balance off even further than it already is, and if all you need to brew is alchemy skill nothings stopping you from having Unseen Crafters do it to every spell you have left before resting.

[Nifft]

Craft (Alchemy) is a rarely used skill. The people that can use it (arcane casters) rarely have much use for it themselves, since their spells do the same things (but better, if later at first), and few players want to set aside time in-game to make the stuff.

Brew Potion is considered a weak option, since scrolls and wands are much more cost effective. Basically, this feat is charity for non-casters (you could argue that having a potion in a tight spot is better than a scroll, but eh). What I did for 3.5e was combine all single-use items into one feat, so scrolls, potions, elixirs, and feather tokens were all under the same item creation choice ("Craft Disposable Dweomer").

Also I combined Rod, Staff and Wand into one feat ("Craft Magic Stick").


Personally, I love the way potions were done in 2nd edition; they were powerful, not always duplicated by spells, and (I'm not sure about this part) created by alchemy. That's straight out of 1e, when potions were mysterious things that weren't just spells in a bottle, and you could sip part of a potion to get partial effect, and you risked permanent magical shenanigans if you mixed two potions (drank one while another was still affecting you).

Ah, the glorious potion miscibility table.


1: Everybody has access to the alchemy skill, since it is a type of Craft. No spellcasting required.

2: No feat is necessary to create potions or elixirs (one-use wondrous items).

3. No exp cost is associated with the brewing of alchemical items.

It just takes time, money, and skill.

(I would say DC 10 + 5/level of the spell, with the regular costs)

Thoughts? I'd suggest throwing away the spell aspect entirely, and just writing up Alchemical potions, oils, and elixirs which are balanced by this system -- so no level scaling for the Curative Draught (just "cure 2d4+6 damage" or whatever) -- and include all the alchemically-themed Wondrous items, like Restorative Ointment.

I'd also suggest adding alchemical accessories, like those swords which deal bonus fire damage when you slot in a flask of Alchemist's Fire. Weapons like that make items like Alchemist's Fire valuable beyond very low levels. Spells like Launch Item can help, too.

[ericgrau]

You've never really looked at alchemical items, have you? They're incredibly useful, and making them yourself is both cheaper than buying and frees you from being dependent on local suppliers.
They are incredibly useful... to buy. Saving 4-5 gp a day with a high craft check to craft them yourself is not so useful. I'd rather put my skill ranks elsewhere.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's an interesting idea, although it's worth noting that Craft (Alchemy) is now wildly more powerful than any other skill in the game. It's not even in the same league anymore-- it's literally giving you access to a gold-based casting subsystem. Expect everyone to invest. But it sounds like that's a thing you're willing to accept, so...

Whatever you do, don't balance it by skill checks alone. Those are far too optimization sensitive to be a good metric. Legomaster's idea of tying potion level to skill ranks is a good one, though I'd leave maximum potion level alone.

But if you really want interesting alchemy... perhaps you need a subsystem, and a class or three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?438183-Alchemy-in-3-5-Major-Rework-of-the-Pathfinder-rules-NOW-WITHOUT-DOWNLOADS!)? (Shameless self-plug)

[Seharvepernfan]

Assuming core rules, here's likely the best alchemist you'll come across (at 5th)
Gnome Illusionist 5
Int 20
Alchemists Lab
8 ranks + 5 int + 2 lab + 2 racial +3 skill focus = +20

Oil of Fiery Burning (fireball, CL 5)
DC 25, 750gp
taking 10, result of 30
30 x 25 = 750sp PER WEEK

It will take 70 days to make this damn item
It will cost you 250gp plus whatever food/rent expenses
and this is with an optimized alchemist (who can just cast the damn spell or make a scroll in one day for a bit more gold + exp)
A regular fighter of 5th level would have roughly +11 or so to his check, as opposed to this +30

Let's try a serious item:
A potion of Mind Blank (CL 15)
DC 50, 6000gp

Our alchemist has no chance of this at 5th level, so let's see how high he has to be to take 10 on this:
Gnome Illusionist 17
Int 28
Alchemists Lab, assistant, stone of good luck, pale green prism ioun stone
20 ranks + 9 int + 2 lab + 2 racial + 3 skill focus + 2 assistant + 1 luck + 1 competence = +40

taking 10, result of 50
50 x 50 = 2500sp per week

168 days

For a spell he could cast 2 levels ago, and make in 3 days with scribe scroll

Clearly, not only is this not over-powered, still nobody will use it. Progress per week should be gp instead of sp, at least.