The conepts behind the rogue class.

[Duke Malagigi]

After making my little thread about paladins, I've decided to try my hand on the rogue, or as it used to be called thief class. As such I have located the RPG.net article (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/archetypology13jul01.html) on thieves. I hope you enjoy this one too.

[Quietus]

Interesting article, that, very well written.

[Duke Malagigi]

Thank you Quietus. I'm good at finding interesting and strange things to talk about.

[Duke Malagigi]

Any other comments or discussion, maybe the feasibility of certain alignments and other concerns?

[dr.cello]

You didn't include any discussion on spies. I've always felt that the spy is underappreciated in fantasy literature. While I'm sure the focus was more on historical roots for the rogue archetype, the class really is pretty versatile as far as that goes. You could be a spy, or a detective, or a generic city watchman, all with the rogue class. Set a thief to catch a thief, after all.

EDIT: Or "Set a deep hole with spring-loaded sides, tripwires, whirling knife blades driven by water power, broken glass and scorpions, to catch a thief," I guess--thanks, Pterry.

[Fax Celestis]

The problem with RPing a spy is that, unless your whole party is RPing spies, you run into the issue of one person stealing the limelight for vast portions of gametime and being tantamount to useless during other portions.

[dr.cello]

True. I find you have that problem a lot with loner, stealth-based characters. I mean, how often does your party's thief really get to just break into someone's mansion and steal something?

This may be due largely to the DMs I've had, but most of the time when I play a rogue I end up being the trapfinding rogue. There's not a lot of stealing or infiltrating that goes on. The party tends to stick together. So what if my rogue is supposed to be a cat burglar? Cat burgling doesn't end up happening.

I always end up in campaigns with a lot of dungeon crawling and going-out-and-fighting-monsters adventuring, even if there's a good story. I think it's the storyteller in me who wants to see a campaign where there's room for a cat burglar, or a spy, or a city watchman. And I think a good DM could give the rest of the party something to do while the spy is out spying, if they couldn't join in on the espionage.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I love the rogue, but unfortunately people see it as a straightforward "10d6 Sneak Attck" class, when actually it's second only to Fighter in terms of customizability.
I'm currently playing in a campaign of 5 second level Rogues (no variants) and we're able to perform a surprising variety of tasks.
I'm the Fixer/Tinker/Lockpick. (Craft, Disable Device, Open Lock)
Another player is the Faceman. (Perform, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise)
Another is the Second Story Man (Climbing, Moving Silenty, Hiding)
Another is the Combat (Combat Feats, Tumble, High Str)
And finally we have an Eldritch Rogue (Knowledge, Use Magic Device)

Let it be known that there is nothing quite like 4 Rogues with readied thrown weapons getting a surprise round, and winning wnitiative. (And one of us is a Neraph)

The problem rogues face is that too many of their skills are completely voided by spells like Knock, Spider Climb, Fly, and even Mage Hand, which can safely set off some traps without having to make checks.
Also, four of their most basic skills, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Disable Device, are obnoxiously redundant. Sure you have 8+ skills per level, but if you're already wasting 5 on those 4 plus Search just to do what takes the Wizard two 2nd level spells, it's kind of a bum deal.
It's my opinion that Hide/Move Silently should be folded into one Stealth skill and Open Lock/Disable Device should be folded into just Disable Device. (A lock is a device if you think about it.)

That said, Rogues are as fun as the dickens to play, and, for the record, so are their Ninja cohorts.

[dr.cello]

Now that sounds like fun. I would love to do a campaign like that. Or even just a mini-adventure, or something. The possibilities are endless. You could also have the fence (Appraise, Gather Information, Knowledge: Local), the lookout (Spot, Listen), the pickpocket (Sleight of Hand, Escape Artist, any skills which involve getting away in a hurry like jump, climb, and possibly tumble)...

I agree about the excessive number of skills a rogue needs to spend points on in some situations. It's one of the things I sort of like about what they're doing with the Saga edition of SW d20: they're lumping redundant skills together. I don't like how it makes Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy all part of one skill, but I can totally get behind making Spot and Listen and maybe Search part of one skill, and making Stealth one skill, or Disable Device/Open Lock (though admittedly I don't think Open Lock exists in SW as a skill.)

Also with you on the spells making them redundant. Who needs hide when you have invisibility? I guess the balancing thing there is that the wizard/sorcerer has to spend a spell slot on it. The rogue is useful because it doesn't cost anything to use the appropriate skills.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Now that sounds like fun. I would love to do a campaign like that. Or even just a mini-adventure, or something. The possibilities are endless. You could also have the fence (Appraise, Gather Information, Knowledge: Local), the lookout (Spot, Listen), the pickpocket (Sleight of Hand, Escape Artist, any skills which involve getting away in a hurry like jump, climb, and possibly tumble)...

I agree about the excessive number of skills a rogue needs to spend points on in some situations. It's one of the things I sort of like about what they're doing with the Saga edition of SW d20: they're lumping redundant skills together. I don't like how it makes Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy all part of one skill, but I can totally get behind making Spot and Listen and maybe Search part of one skill, and making Stealth one skill, or Disable Device/Open Lock (though admittedly I don't think Open Lock exists in SW as a skill.)

Also with you on the spells making them redundant. Who needs hide when you have invisibility? I guess the balancing thing there is that the wizard/sorcerer has to spend a spell slot on it. The rogue is useful because it doesn't cost anything to use the appropriate skills.
The problem with the Spell Slots is that the same level 2 Knock opens every lock, whereas the rogue/bard needs to always be investing skills in it every level to be able to open locks.
Also, a sorcerer can just invest in a wand of Knock, Spider Climb, or Fly.

Then again, the spell-system is broken to all nowhere, so it's no real news there.