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View Full Version : The power of infinity! (TO trick)



Jormengand
2015-10-04, 03:48 AM
The following is a build which basically revolves entirely around the stupidity that is infinite free heightening on utterances. Props to Aharon for coming up with the basic trick, Zaq for the thing we're going to do with rebuild item, Troacctid for the Slashing Dispel trick, and Bakkan for the reserve feats trick.

The basic trick here is that you can heighten your utterance as much as you like, so long as you can hit the DC, that goes up by +4 each time. So, if you want to cast Minor Word of Nurturing as though it were a level 2 utterance against a CR 1 target, the DC is 21, not 17. Of course, if you want to use lesser word of nurturing, which is already a level 2 utterance, it's only DC 17. Don't even ask. So if you want to use that same 1st-level utterance at spell level 101, the DC is 417. Of course, no-one actually makes DC 417 truespeak checks. However, the really neat thing is that you can turn into a beastie called a Garbler, which doesn't need to roll truespeak to utter. Want a SL 101 utterance? You can have that. Want a SL 100000000000001 utterance? It's yours, my friend.

Now, that's nice and all, but high SLs don't actually increase the save DC, because it's based on truenamer level, not spell level. Which is why you take all the utterances with no save. But there are a few effects that scale on spell level. Tonight, we're going to meet a few of them. Oh, and you get to cheat the prerequisite for Extra Spell, because you can cast level (insert stoopidhuge number here) spells, so that's nice.

Now, if we assume a 32 point buy human, and then assume that every single point in our PB is going in INT or WIS, we should have fun times. Oh, by the way, if you want to take flaws, then try Extra Spell (Slashing Dispel) and then dispel your own arbitrarily big utterances for MASSIVE DAMAGE. Some reserve feats will also trigger off your infinite-level, say, fire spell that you can hypothetically cast, and actually do infinite damage, or trigger off that infinite-level abjuration that you can hypothetically cast and force an infinite concentration check. Mystic Backlash will forever cause a creature to be unable to cast spells or it dies.

"Free points" are where you can choose what you want to spend the skill points on, becuase it's not essential for the build. I've stopped writing up the skills at all from level 10, because by that point it's just "Moar truespeak!"

http://oi59.tinypic.com/zx2l5j.jpg (http://oi59.tinypic.com/zx2l5j.jpg)

Right, so now that's sorted, what can we do with it?

At low levels, you're stuck using the standard truenamer abuses of poor wording, like using speed of the zephyr as a 2nd-level version of greater teleport because it lets you go between any wall and any floor as a swift action, or using reversed inertia surge as some kind of levitate/dimensional anchor. You do also have medium bab, flight at the same level a sorcerer gets it, and solid fog from level 8, so you're not exactly defenseless - you can hide in the fog shooting people while fifteen feet in the air, after all. Your recitation lets you pretend you're a rogue, which is helpful I guess?

At 12th level, you learn polymorph. This is entirely useless, because you haven't got any slots to cast it out of. At 13th level, you can actually cast it.

Bracers of the Blast Barrier and Bracers of the Entangling Blast are utterly ludicrous when combined with our little TO trick. One of them creates a barrier that kills anything that touches it, the other just kills the utterance's target. The fun thing is that this can probably even take out pun-pun if you can hit the bastard (admittedly the hard part) because whoever is running pun-pun would only have bothered to repeat the trick so many times before deciding that 200 quadrillion hit points was enough, whereas you can just arbitrarily go "Hey, yeah, my utterance is SL 1010000, so good luck with that." There's no kill like overkill.

At 16th level, you can cast Energy Transfer Field. Go to SpC page 80 and just marvel at how ridiculous it is. In case you don't have SpC, here are the edited highlights: You choose an area with a 40 foot radius, decide what spell it's going to cast, pay some GP and XP, and this area is now permanently an ETF. At 19th you're gonna get spell rebirth, so you can restore it even if it gets disjunctioned. Now, whenever anyone casts a spell in the ETF, the ETF counters the spell and gains energy equal to the spell level. When the ETF has enough spell levels to cast its own spell, if the duration on the last spell it cast has expired, it casts its own spell, on the nearest living thing if it needs a target.

Interestingly, ETF has no stipulation that you have to know the spell you want it to cast, only that it have no XP or expensive material component. What this means is that you can just decide that it's going to cast some kind of epic spell that destroys the world, but has so high a spellcraft DC that you can't cast it, but is still only a 10th-level spell. But that doesn't require infinite spell levels. So what can we do?

You can stick mage's lucubration in the ETF, and the ETF declares itself above your normal targeting restrictions and casts it on the nearest living creature anyway. That's probably not actually legal, and you can do something far cooler when you reach level 20 anyway. What you can do, though, is use the mind rape+love's pain trick only make the ETF cast the mind rapes, so you deal near-infinite damage to someone who doesn't necessarily know you exist. You could make it spam Earthquakes until it's blue in the face. You could make it send sendings for all eternity. If you absolutely, positively gotta blow something up, put your biggest blasty spell in there and watch as the ETF destroys everything in sight.

When you get to level 20, you get to pull an even nastier trick.

Rods of absorption are silly. That bears saying again. Rods of absorption are silly. Go read them, they're on the SRD. Basically, they mean 50 levels of free spells. But then the rod is useless, right? Wrong! You're a truenamer, to break that rod over your knee, and then return it to its "Normal, undamaged state" by using the rebuild item utterance! Then, cast a level 50 utterance on yourself to fill the rod back up again!

So overall, you have an honestly silly selection of ways to deal effectively infinite damage, can get all your spells back, and make infinite copies of (almost) any spell you care to name. Have fun.

Inevitability
2015-10-04, 04:38 AM
Can you cast level 5 spells at ECL 12? Otherwise you don't qualify for Extra Spell (polymorph).

Jormengand
2015-10-04, 04:49 AM
Can you cast level 5 spells at ECL 12? Otherwise you don't qualify for Extra Spell (polymorph).

You can increase an utterance's effective spell level to 5, and spell-like abilities work just like spells.

Troacctid
2015-10-04, 07:04 AM
Oh, and you get to cheat the prerequisite for Extra Spell, because you can cast level (insert stoopidhuge number here) spells, so that's nice.

Some reserve feats will also trigger off your infinite-level, say, fire spell that you can hypothetically cast, and actually do infinite damage, or trigger off that infinite-level abjuration that you can hypothetically cast and force an infinite concentration check. Mystic Backlash will forever cause a creature to be unable to cast spells or it dies.

Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for these purposes; neither of these tricks works.


Characters or creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations never learn the arcane circumlocutions of logic and mental training necessary for advanced spellcasting. As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

Most tricks involving spell level only work with spells. That's why I suggested Slashing Dispel--it interacts just as well with spell-like abilities.

Jormengand
2015-10-04, 07:10 AM
Spell-like abilities don't count as spells for these purposes; neither of these tricks works.

I don't see why the reserve feat one wouldn't - you'd have to qualify for the feat using your ur priest spells, but there's nothing stopping you using the utterance when you actually use the reserve feat; it's not a prerequisite, after all. I mean, the prerequisite is a prerequisite, but actually using the feat isn't.

Anyway, all that means is that you have to bump polymorph and ETF up three levels, and you didn't need shapechange in the first place, so choose another feat. Or, mess around with otoyugh hole (however it's spelt) and do the Dark Chaos Shuffle to get the feats you need the moment you can get them.

EDIT: Or use flaws to get heighten spell and some metamagic reducers so that you can cast higher-level spells than you should be able to, and get the feats early the way you were going to.

Troacctid
2015-10-04, 03:16 PM
Reserve feats are also explicitly powered only by actual spells, not spell-like or supernatural abilities. CM p37.

Psyren
2015-10-04, 04:27 PM
How are you getting the Garbler's auto-success ability? It isn't a Supernatural Ability, Special Attack or even a Special Quality; it's listed under "Skills" in the text, and isn't even included in their statblock. None of the polymorph abilities (even Shapechange) grant "skills" afaik; in fact, the closest we have are "skill ranks" which are explicitly retained from the base form and even retained if you do something like Mind Swap with a garbler. Furthermore "for its utterances" can also only mean the d6 random utterances garblers get, which are "its utterances," i.e. the ones it comes with.

Without being otherwise marked, that ability defaults to a natural ability, and those aren't transferred either. There's a lot of holes in this step.

Jormengand
2015-10-04, 04:45 PM
How are you getting the Garbler's auto-success ability? It isn't a Supernatural Ability, Special Attack or even a Special Quality; it's listed under "Skills" in the text, and isn't even included in their statblock. None of the polymorph abilities (even Shapechange) grant "skills" afaik; in fact, the closest we have are "skill ranks" which are explicitly retained from the base form and even retained if you do something like Mind Swap with a garbler. Furthermore "for its utterances" can also only mean the d6 random utterances garblers get, which are "its utterances," i.e. the ones it comes with.

Without being otherwise marked, that ability defaults to a natural ability, and those aren't transferred either. There's a lot of holes in this step.

It's not listed as an ability, simply something that is true of garblers. And I don't see the bit where it specifies "Its random utterances" rather than just "Its utterances", that is, utterances belonging to it.

Psyren
2015-10-04, 05:18 PM
It's not listed as an ability, simply something that is true of garblers.

But that's the problem, if it's not listed as an ability then how are you getting it? Polymorph doesn't say "you get all the non-ability stuff." It says you get Ex special attacks, and this isn't one of them. Even Shapechange only says "Ex and Su Special Attacks and Special Qualities" but this... whatever it is, is not listed under either of those headings in the statblock.


And I don't see the bit where it specifies "Its random utterances" rather than just "Its utterances", that is, utterances belonging to it.

That's my second point, "utterances belonging to it" are spelled out in the Garbler entry. This point is minor compared to the first though.

Aharon
2015-10-05, 02:28 AM
But that's the problem, if it's not listed as an ability then how are you getting it? Polymorph doesn't say "you get all the non-ability stuff." It says you get Ex special attacks, and this isn't one of them. Even Shapechange only says "Ex and Su Special Attacks and Special Qualities" but this... whatever it is, is not listed under either of those headings in the statblock.



That's my second point, "utterances belonging to it" are spelled out in the Garbler entry. This point is minor compared to the first though.

If you have the TO-assumed lenient DM - the ability is listed in the same place in the stat-block where skill bonuses normally are, and can be counted as a kind of skill bonus. If the assumed DM doesn't let that fly - the ability defaults to Ex (iirc, any ability not specifically anything else is ex), and Shapechange says (You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form,), so this quality would be included.

Im away from books, but IIRC, the text flat out says the garbler never has to make Truespeak checks, not limiting that to the random utterances they have.

Psyren
2015-10-05, 08:04 AM
If you have the TO-assumed lenient DM - the ability is listed in the same place in the stat-block where skill bonuses normally are, and can be counted as a kind of skill bonus. If the assumed DM doesn't let that fly - the ability defaults to Ex (iirc, any ability not specifically anything else is ex), and Shapechange says (You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form,), so this quality would be included.

Nope - unmarked abilities default to Natural (PHB 180, RC 118), not Ex.

But the other problem is that whether you consider it Ex or Na is actually irrelevant. The "Skills" part of its entry that gives it automatic uttering is neither a special attack nor a special quality. It's not even called a special ability anywhere at all. These are the only SA and SQ abilities it gets:

http://i.imgur.com/PldaVKY.png

There is nothing there about the automatic uttering and thus no way for you to get it.

Aharon
2015-10-05, 08:52 AM
Nope - unmarked abilities default to Natural (PHB 180, RC 118), not Ex.

But the other problem is that whether you consider it Ex or Na is actually irrelevant. The "Skills" part of its entry that gives it automatic uttering is neither a special attack nor a special quality. It's not even called a special ability anywhere at all. These are the only SA and SQ abilities it gets:

http://i.imgur.com/PldaVKY.png

There is nothing there about the automatic uttering and thus no way for you to get it.

Took some time to dig out the relevant Rules of the Game article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a), which states


Natural Ability: This term is a catch-all for just about anything a creature can do (or characteristic that it has) that is not extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. Natural abilities include most speed ratings (some very high speeds are not "natural," see the section on the alter self spell), mode of breathing (lungs, gills), natural armor and weaponry, general appearance, body type, and the presence or absence of the five basic senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, pain). When polymorphing, you generally lose your own natural abilities and gain those of your assumed form.a

If it were ex, you would get it with shapechange.
And if that's not sufficient to convince you, there's still the Fusion+Astral Seed combo to get the ability.

Flickerdart
2015-10-05, 09:06 AM
Rules of the Game isn't even FAQ-grade, it's just Skip Williams' houserules column.

Aharon
2015-10-05, 10:14 AM
Rules of the Game isn't even FAQ-grade, it's just Skip Williams' houserules column.

Yes, and both FAQ and Rules of the Game is usable as a clarification if it doesn't directly contradict the rules text, which it doesn't in this case. But that's beside the point, you can get the ability - if not via polymorph, then via Fusion+Astral Seed. It's a bit more work, but we're talking about TO, anyway.

Psyren
2015-10-05, 10:37 AM
So now instead of just allowing you to do it, the DM has to actively assist by spawning a Garbler in the world somewhere for you to fuse with. But you're right, this is TO.

Jormengand
2015-10-05, 10:40 AM
The point is that it's not an ability at all, let alone a natural one. It is simply a statement of fact: if you are a garbler, you don't need a truespeak check to use utterances that belong to you. Utterances that belong to you may be ones that you get because you're a garbler, or because you're a truenamer, but the fact is they belong to you.

Aharon
2015-10-05, 11:46 AM
So now instead of just allowing you to do it, the DM has to actively assist by spawning a Garbler in the world somewhere for you to fuse with. But you're right, this is TO.

Well, you can always make it Gate+Fusion+Astral Seed.

Psyren
2015-10-05, 01:01 PM
The point is that it's not an ability at all, let alone a natural one. It is simply a statement of fact: if you are a garbler, you don't need a truespeak check to use utterances that belong to you. Utterances that belong to you may be ones that you get because you're a garbler, or because you're a truenamer, but the fact is they belong to you.

I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that that makes it entirely out of scope for polymorph. Remember, polymorph does not turn you into an exact copy of {thing} - it specifies what you get, and anything not specified is not gotten.


Well, you can always make it Gate+Fusion+Astral Seed.

Gate from where? It's an Aberration, not an Outsider. It's already here.

Inevitability
2015-10-05, 01:54 PM
Gate from where? It's an Aberration, not an Outsider. It's already here.

You could pay someone to make you a demiplane (through Genesis), then cast Gate there. If there's a Garbler in the multiverse, either he's an acceptable Gate target or he's already on your five-feet-wide piece of the multiverse.

Aharon
2015-10-05, 01:57 PM
I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that that makes it entirely out of scope for polymorph. Remember, polymorph does not turn you into an exact copy of {thing} - it specifies what you get, and anything not specified is not gotten.



Gate from where? It's an Aberration, not an Outsider. It's already here.

OK, this slowly but surely gets complicated :smallbiggrin: Move to another plane and gate it in then. From your point of vantage, Garblers on the material plane are now extraplanar and can be called.

Extraplanar Subtype:


Extraplanar Subtype
A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Calling function of Gate:


Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

Yes, one might argue that an extraplanar creature is not explicitly defined as a creature with the extraplanar subtype. That's true. In this case, I think it would be the most sensitive way to take the dictionary definitions into account, which would support that something that is, from your point of view, on another plane, can be considered to be an extraplanar creature.

Psyren
2015-10-05, 01:59 PM
You could pay someone to make you a demiplane (through Genesis), then cast Gate there. If there's a Garbler in the multiverse, either he's an acceptable Gate target or he's already on your five-feet-wide piece of the multiverse.


OK, this slowly but surely gets complicated :smallbiggrin: Move to another plane and gate it in then. From your point of vantage, Garblers on the material plane are now extraplanar and can be called.

Except they don't become [extraplanar] until they leave their native plane, which they can't do until you Gate them, which you can't do until they're [extraplanar], which they don't get until they leave their native plane... :smalltongue:

Aharon
2015-10-05, 03:38 PM
Except they don't become [extraplanar] until they leave their native plane, which they can't do until you Gate them, which you can't do until they're [extraplanar], which they don't get until they leave their native plane... :smalltongue:

How about the travel function of Wish, then?

Psyren
2015-10-05, 03:58 PM
How about the travel function of Wish, then?

Again, this requires your DM to assist by spawning one in the campaign's Material somewhere. Certainly it would work if they do so (and said Garbler fails the will save), followed by you beating it into submission to make it willing to fuse.

atemu1234
2015-10-05, 10:25 PM
Rules of the Game isn't even FAQ-grade, it's just Skip Williams' houserules column.

And I even dispute FAQ as RAW. I put it in the same category as better-made third party material - to be used by me when convenient, and to disregard when I disagree with it.