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Tyrael
2007-05-19, 11:06 PM
I hear these two classes mentioned quite a bit as prime examples of overpowered cheese. What exactly makes them so crazy? And what books are they from?

Jack Mann
2007-05-19, 11:16 PM
Artificers are from the Eberron Core Setting. They can make any item, basically. Much of their cheese comes the use of wands and metamagic. Others can show you more ably what's wrong with them.

Archivists, from Heroes of Horror, are broken by virtue of getting every divine spell in the game, including domain spells. This allows them to be everything the wizard is, and more. I like the flavor, and much of the mechanics, but you have to watch them. If you allow them, tell players to run any spell they purchase by you, if it isn't from the cleric or druid lists. Allow them anything reasonable, and tell them anything else just isn't available to them.

It's a bit of a juggling act, since the basic divine lists tend not to be all that great, so if you don't allow them anything outside there, they're going to be too weak. But they are a fun class to play, and they can add a lot of good flavor to the game.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-19, 11:33 PM
The fundamental problem with artificers is that anything that any spellcaster in the game can do, they can also do.

Two levels earlier.

And with free metamagic.

Jacob Orlove
2007-05-20, 12:31 AM
http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=862 has a couple of the more outlandish artificer-only tricks.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-05-20, 01:43 AM
I agree on all counts with the Artificer (pro tip: if you're worried about an Artificer player abusing the class's power, starve him for cash. Well, that's not so much a pro tip as advice on being a jerk, but...)

I fail to see how the Archivist is any more overpowered than a Cleric. Getting all domain spells is rather ridiculous, but he still has to find them. Clerics get all the new core-cleric spells for free every time the DM allows a splatbook. Also, heavy armor and shields and other things that synergize well with their overpowered combat buffs.

Douglas
2007-05-20, 01:51 AM
Getting all domain spells is rather ridiculous, but he still has to find them.
Or get an artificer or warlock buddy to craft them for him. Both of those classes can make scrolls of any spell they want with a UMD check.

Also, it's not just the domain spells that make Archivists powerful. They also get Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, etc. spells at the levels they are on those classes spell lists. Quite a number of the higher level spells on half-caster spell lists are balanced on the assumption that characters will gain access to them at the level that particular class does, not the 5-10 or more levels sooner that the Archivist does. Also, Heal is on the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) spell list at level 5 instead of 6, and the Archivist can therefore get it as a level 5 spell.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-05-20, 02:04 AM
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that loophole. Which also is one of the main problems with Artificers, since they can base their item crafting off of any spell list they like.

And the first bit of synergy just never occurred to me. Never played a Warlock that high, or an Artificer period. They still cost resources, though, just...not nearly as much.

Jack Mann
2007-05-20, 02:53 AM
Ah, yes, the other needed fix for archivists is to make sure spells are learned at the proper levels. I've ruled that spells that appear on more than one list must default to a hierarchy. Cleric>Druid>Domain>Shujenga>Paladin>Ranger>Etc.

So, if it's a 2nd level spell for clerics, and a 1st level spell for paladins, they have to learn it as a 2nd level spell.

And remember, Nerd-o-rama, by the basic rules, the archivists can find the spells just fine if they can afford them and are in a large enough town. Scarcity in this case is a house rule. A necessary one, but still a house rule.

Latronis
2007-05-20, 07:26 AM
wow Jack Mann looks like your avvy lost ten years at least

that's quite a good idea that heirachy actually, i might use that.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-20, 08:03 AM
The real mess with Archivists, as far as I can see (I'm afraid I once pulled this trick), is when you take a level of wizard and the 'Alternative Source Spell' feat. Then you can cast any spell you find, scribing it to your ----book, albeit at -1CL, at the Archivist's favourable spell progression, ignoring ASF. It's a mystic theurge on performance enhancing drugs. When they then start PrCing, the nightmare deepens.

The 11th level archivist ability is also fairly nasty - Dark Knowledge being able to stun any entity with Type:Outsider, for 1 round, no save, is an overlooked boon. Remember, it will work against deities, too.

Artificers? Only really broken in that they are a channel for more Persistent and Energy Admixtured spells into the world.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-20, 09:28 AM
Pre-errata, you also had the 20'th level artificer able to snap his fingers and create any magic item he could, for no gold or XP.

Luckily, they fixed that one. Similarly, you can do a lot when your entire party can exceed the RWT thanks to your incredible crafting.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-20, 09:45 AM
What?:smalleek:

Where was this errata? Is there any way of getting it revoked?

The Glyphstone
2007-05-20, 10:11 AM
The real mess with Archivists, as far as I can see (I'm afraid I once pulled this trick), is when you take a level of wizard and the 'Alternative Source Spell' feat. Then you can cast any spell you find, scribing it to your ----book, albeit at -1CL, at the Archivist's favourable spell progression, ignoring ASF. It's a mystic theurge on performance enhancing drugs. When they then start PrCing, the nightmare deepens.

The 11th level archivist ability is also fairly nasty - Dark Knowledge being able to stun any entity with Type:Outsider, for 1 round, no save, is an overlooked boon. Remember, it will work against deities, too.

Artificers? Only really broken in that they are a channel for more Persistent and Energy Admixtured spells into the world.

Deities have immunity to stunning. So archivists are just broken ubertheurges, not god-slaying broken ubertheurges...:smallamused:

Arbitrarity
2007-05-20, 10:19 AM
The Eberron Campaign setting once allowed the assorted artisan feats to be taken more than once, for -25% to either cost, time, or XP for crafting.

Take each 4 times, (12 feats, 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 12, 15, 16, 18, 20), or all the feats of a nonhuman without flaws, allowed an artificer to craft anything with no GP, XP, or time cost.

They changed that, so each can only be taken once. Course, if you just read the campaign setting book, and shadily ignore the errata... well, you could try run it past your DM.

goat
2007-05-20, 10:21 AM
I thought that the best way to stop Artificers was starving them for time rather than money.

Enzario
2007-05-20, 10:22 AM
Or get an artificer or warlock buddy to craft them for him. Both of those classes can make scrolls of any spell they want with a UMD check.
*snippage*

Here's the thing, though. An artificer scroll is not a spell! An artificer scroll is something completely outside the bounds of normal magic, and thus can't be used by any other person besides another artificer. For obvious reasons, this makes artificers less able to break any wizzy that might happen to be in their party.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-20, 10:25 AM
And the Warlock?

Never mind, they're a waste anyways.

Actually, if you limit the artificer's time, he uses the craft assist homunculus, combined with a portable hole. "Ding!" "Sir, your +1 light crossbow is complete" "Thank you. Now get to work on my ring of protection!"

Worse, if it's a warforged, they can craft while everyone else sleeps.

Jack Mann
2007-05-20, 01:06 PM
And you would have to limit their time in some way that still allowed the other classes their downtime. It's no fair that the fighter can't get his regular items commissioned just so the artificer will get nerfed.

goat
2007-05-20, 01:20 PM
Actually, if you limit the artificer's time, he uses the craft assist homunculus, combined with a portable hole. "Ding!" "Sir, your +1 light crossbow is complete" "Thank you. Now get to work on my ring of protection!"

I'd just be inclined to nick his portable hole.

Douglas
2007-05-20, 01:28 PM
Here's the thing, though. An artificer scroll is not a spell! An artificer scroll is something completely outside the bounds of normal magic, and thus can't be used by any other person besides another artificer. For obvious reasons, this makes artificers less able to break any wizzy that might happen to be in their party.
Huh? Where does it say that? I just read the entire description of the Item Creation Artificer class feature, and nowhere in any of the five paragraphs does it say anything about the end product being treated differently than the same thing made by a non-Artificer crafter. When an Artificer makes a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, it is a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, indistinguishable from any other scroll of CLW with the same caster level. Wizards and Archivists can copy spells from non-Artificer scrolls into their spellbooks, so they can do the same thing with Artificer-made scrolls just as easily.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-20, 01:30 PM
That's like nicking all of that wizard I made's spellbooks. He had 6 spellbooks hidden on the ethereal plane (teleport object), 2 in a portable hole, one deep underground, and one in a Leomund's secret chest.

Everything was sequestered. He also had a clone. And his spellbooks were all trapped.

Actually, the portable hole isn't that bad, but anyone with that item could of course, being an artificer, craft another in 20 days. Also, they could trap it with relative ease. And finally, Warforged artificers continue to laugh at you.

Oh, and with no downtime for the warforged to rest, everyone dies, because no one prepares spells.

Err, doug, that's some errata.
Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered
neither arcane nor divine.

Tengu
2007-05-20, 01:36 PM
Worse, if it's a warforged, they can craft while everyone else sleeps.

Is that the reason why everyone says that a warforged artificer is a strong combo?

Well, any artificer is strong, even a kobold or half-elf one, but you know what I mean.

Jack Mann
2007-05-20, 01:42 PM
Huh? Where does it say that? I just read the entire description of the Item Creation Artificer class feature, and nowhere in any of the five paragraphs does it say anything about the end product being treated differently than the same thing made by a non-Artificer crafter. When an Artificer makes a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, it is a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, indistinguishable from any other scroll of CLW with the same caster level. Wizards and Archivists can copy spells from non-Artificer scrolls into their spellbooks, so they can do the same thing with Artificer-made scrolls just as easily.

They updated it in the errata.

JaronK
2007-05-21, 12:45 AM
They did in fact errata it so an Artificer can't make divine scrolls. A Warlock, however, can make any spell as a divine scroll, so that route is still open.

JaronK

Aquillion
2007-05-21, 01:20 AM
Yeah, artificers have been specifically errataed to create scrolls that are neither arcane nor divine.

...and I still think the idea that Warlocks can scribe divine scrolls is iffy. Being able to mimic divine spells for the purpose of satisfying requirements when making an item isn't the same as getting around the rule that says that you make scrolls based on your caster type. They're separate rules, and artificers only get around one of them (with an ability that was manifestly not written with scrolls in mind)... I think that Warlocks probably get scrolls of the same type as their class-spell-source, just like everyone else, which likely means 'flavorless' ones that nobody can scribe, like the artificer.

Ignoring those, though, another major problem that archivists have to deal with: Those partial-caster classes that the archivist is going to want scrolls from don't get 'scribe scroll' as a free feat, and are both thematically and mechanically unlikely to want it. So how many people out there, really, do you think there are who take the time to scribe druid, paladin, or ranger scrolls? Yeah.

Druids, maybe, but it's hardly a stretch to houserule that they typically refuse to sell or give scrolls of druid spells to outsiders. Paladins and rangers just aren't scroll-scribing types. Other classes are rarer and generally likewise unlikely to spend time scribing... wizard scrolls are likely to be common because all wizards know how to scribe them as a matter of basic training. Other scrolls, not so much.

(Of course, you have to let archivists get some scrolls outside of the basic cleric list, or the class is pointless. It's a neat class, but part of the problem with it, I guess, is that it leaves so much open to DM decisions...)


Is that the reason why everyone says that a warforged artificer is a strong combo?They can devote 8 hours to creating items while everyone else is sleeping, effectively letting them devote every single day to crafting and making it impossible to take away their craft-time without taking away time basic casters need to function normally. They can also repair themselves with invocations, or enchant / enhance parts of their body.

...I forget the rules on invocations, though. Do artificers require 8 hours of rest to get them back?

JaronK
2007-05-21, 01:33 AM
Ignoring those, though, another major problem that archivists have to deal with: Those partial-caster classes that the archivist is going to want scrolls from don't get 'scribe scroll' as a free feat, and are both thematically and mechanically unlikely to want it. So how many people out there, really, do you think there are who take the time to scribe druid, paladin, or ranger scrolls? Yeah.

Doesn't matter. Read the general magic item creation rules (before the specific scroll section). You'll find the part where they say you can have the spell cast by someone else when you create a magic item. Thus, the paladin casts the spell, and the Archivist uses his own Scribe Scroll feat to make the scroll. There's no need to find a Ranger with Scribe Scroll.

And yes, I know, in the Scrolls section of item creation it says you need to know the spell. It says that in all sections. The general rule still applies here, that you can get around that requirement by having someone else who can cast the spell.

Also, while it's somewhat iffy that a Warlock can create divine scrolls of arcane spells, it's not at all iffy that they can create divine scrolls of all divine spells, including the Adept, Ranger, Paladin, and Domain lists.

JaronK

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-21, 02:49 AM
The Eberron Campaign setting once allowed the assorted artisan feats to be taken more than once, for -25% to either cost, time, or XP for crafting.

Take each 4 times, (12 feats, 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 12, 15, 16, 18, 20), or all the feats of a nonhuman without flaws, allowed an artificer to craft anything with no GP, XP, or time cost.

They changed that, so each can only be taken once. Course, if you just read the campaign setting book, and shadily ignore the errata... well, you could try run it past your DM.
Not so much allowed as it was a Typo in the book.

As for Arc/Art, they're powerful, but relatively easy to fix with a little bit of homebrewing.
Artificer becomes a lot more fair if you just zap Metamagic Item Trigger.
The fix I use with my Archivist player is allowing her to learn two spells per level which are divine only because they are a domain spell.
i.e., if she learned Magic Missle (Force), and Charm Person (Charm), she couldn't learn Ray of Enfeeblement (Necromancer).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-21, 06:38 AM
...I forget the rules on invocations, though. Do artificers require 8 hours of rest to get them back?
You mean infusions. Artificers use infusion. Invocations are used by Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts.

And, yes, Artificers do need 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of Concentration.


Doesn't matter. Read the general magic item creation rules (before the specific scroll section). You'll find the part where they say you can have the spell cast by someone else when you create a magic item. Thus, the paladin casts the spell, and the Archivist uses his own Scribe Scroll feat to make the scroll. There's no need to find a Ranger with Scribe Scroll.
But finding an NPC to help you scribe the scroll can be difficult too. Sure, the books treat getting an NPC to cast a spell for higher as being no harder than buying the scroll, but I think those prices, at least, are based off of the NPC spellcaster spending no more than the spell's normal casting time on the job. I believe the person casting the spell has to be present throughout the item creation process. So that's hiring out a mid-level (at least) Paladin or Ranger for at least one full day of work.

Aquillion
2007-05-21, 12:07 PM
Also, while it's somewhat iffy that a Warlock can create divine scrolls of arcane spells, it's not at all iffy that they can create divine scrolls of all divine spells, including the Adept, Ranger, Paladin, and Domain lists.I think it is fairly iffy. From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm):

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) It's determined by your class, not just by what spells you can cast; and the warlocks can only mimic the ability to cast certain spells for the purposes of meeting requirements that call for those spells. They can't mimic membership in an entire class.

In other words, in order to make an arcane scroll, you have to be a member of an arcane spellcasting class; to make a divine scroll, you have to be a member of a divine spellcasting class. Not just able to cast spells from that class; you actually have to be a cleric, druid, etc.

Warlocks are neither. Therefore, they cannot create arcane or divine scrolls, and scrolls they do create cannot be scribed by anyone, or used by anyone without a UMD check.

(Technically, maybe a warlock could do it after taking one level in a divine spellcasting class? Hmm... That would imply that a wizard/cleric could scribe arcane scrolls of Heal, and divine scrolls of Fireball, although that's not really as big a deal as it sounds, since the spells couldn't be scribed or used by anyone unless they also had those spells on their class list.)

JaronK
2007-05-21, 05:46 PM
But finding an NPC to help you scribe the scroll can be difficult too. Sure, the books treat getting an NPC to cast a spell for higher as being no harder than buying the scroll, but I think those prices, at least, are based off of the NPC spellcaster spending no more than the spell's normal casting time on the job. I believe the person casting the spell has to be present throughout the item creation process. So that's hiring out a mid-level (at least) Paladin or Ranger for at least one full day of work.

And yet Adepts are supposed to be quite common, and they're not adventurers... they can use the cash. You only need to cast the spell once per day to craft something, so we're actually talking about a very quick process... just buy the casting of the spell once and you're done.

At least according to the PHB, it's easy. Plus, if you're good, I'd imagine many Paladins would gladly help you. Of course, you have to be VERY good around them, but hey, that's paladins for you!

JaronK

JaronK
2007-05-21, 05:48 PM
I think it is fairly iffy. From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm):
It's determined by your class, not just by what spells you can cast; and the warlocks can only mimic the ability to cast certain spells for the purposes of meeting requirements that call for those spells. They can't mimic membership in an entire class.

In other words, in order to make an arcane scroll, you have to be a member of an arcane spellcasting class; to make a divine scroll, you have to be a member of a divine spellcasting class. Not just able to cast spells from that class; you actually have to be a cleric, druid, etc.

Warlocks are neither. Therefore, they cannot create arcane or divine scrolls, and scrolls they do create cannot be scribed by anyone, or used by anyone without a UMD check.

This is simply false. Artificers have this problem, Warlocks do not. Warlocks can indeed create arcane or divine scrolls, their choice. This was clarified, though I don't remember offhand where. They are simulating the ability to cast a certain spell, which includes the type of the spell, so a Warlock can indeed make a divine spell of X.

JaronK

Aquillion
2007-05-21, 07:37 PM
This is simply false. Artificers have this problem, Warlocks do not. Warlocks can indeed create arcane or divine scrolls, their choice. This was clarified, though I don't remember offhand where. They are simulating the ability to cast a certain spell, which includes the type of the spell, so a Warlock can indeed make a divine spell of X.I'll believe it when I see the errata.

Simulating the ability to cast a certain spell doesn't help, though. The type of scrolls you scribe is determined by your class, and nothing else. Being able to cast a divine spell (even as a divine spell) doesn't let you scribe divine scrolls. Things like Alternative Source Spell and Allmagic won't help you, since it's just your class that matters, not the flavor of your spells. The only abilities that would let a non-divine-casting-class scribe divine scrolls are ones that specifically say that you count as a divine class or specifically allow you to scribe divine scrolls. Otherwise, core RAW applies, which say you look at your class and use that. Warlocks have the ability to substitute a UMD check for spells they don't know or can't cast. That's all. No mention of letting your class count as divine or arcane, and no mention of scribing scrolls your class wouldn't normally allow. Therefore, they end up with 'warlock-flavor' scrolls.

This is an oversight, since warlocks aren't enumerated in the lists of who gets which kind of scroll, and, granted, it isn't clear... no rule would really allow 'neutral' scrolls, either. But taking that and saying "oh, that means they can get whatever they want" is misunderstanding how scrolls get their type... being able to cast divine spells (or mimic that ability, as the case may be) does not automatically let you scribe divine scrolls, no more than a cleric can use Allmagic to scribe arcane scrolls. The basic flavor of your scrolls is already set in stone by your class.

JaronK
2007-05-21, 08:16 PM
I'll believe it when I see the errata.


Q: In reference to the “Imbue Item” ability, if you have the feat "Scribe Scroll" and you create an Arcane Scroll with any spell of your choosing can a Wizard learn this as a new spell and/or copy it into his spell book? Since the Warlock doesn't know any spells, then what is to prevent him/her to try to imbue an arcane scroll with a brand new spell. Something a wizard would typically have to research to get. Assuming that you follow the guidelines for spell creation.

A: I chatted with the developers about the Imbue Item-Scribe Scroll trick for giving the warlock nigh-infinite spell diversity, and we realized pretty quick that it's not broken.
Here's why:

1. The warlock is supposed to be able to read off other class's scrolls and use their spell trigger items by means of a great Use Magic Device check.

2. Given that, the warlock can just *buy* scrolls or staffs at full market price and use them easily anyway.

3. Therefore, Imbue Item really only gives you the opportunity to expend a feat choice and buy one category of magic items at half-price... spending some XP and some time to manufacture your price break.

4. If you were scribing scrolls of interesting spells your wizard buddy would want to learn, you could have just *bought* your wizard buddy a scroll of that spell and given it to him. You didn't need to make it yourself, really.

So, it's a good tactic, and some smart play, but it's not as crazy as it might seem at first glance.

Will that do? Point 4 references this situation pretty much exactly.

Here's the full thread if you need it: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=405215

JaronK

Arbitrarity
2007-05-22, 07:02 AM
So it's legal.

Yeah, obviously in his D&D some people don't limit his spending *gasps* 4000 gp in large cities!
:smallwink: