Way of the Four Elements: Single Element focus

[Capac Amaru]

I have a player in my campaign playing a Svirfneblin (Deep Gnome) monk. The party has just hit level 3, so the monk gets to choose between the three monastic traditions.

People seem to gravitate towards Open Hand, and Shadow, but it occurred to me that an Earth element focused Way of the Four Elements path would be a nice match thematically (and mechanically with Stone Camouflage).

The PHB suggests single element focused monks, but doesn't seem fit to actually build one.

You only get 5 (!) elemental disciplines, but the listed options do not have 5 of the earth element.

First, I went through the spells in the PHB and the EEPC, and I created a full list of Elemental Disciplines with an Earth element focus:




Spine of the World 17th
Bones of the Earth
6 Ki points


Grasp of the Earth Giant 6th
Maximilians Earthen Grasp
3 Ki points


Earth Attunement
Mold Earth
0 Ki points


Eternal Mountain Defense 11th
Stone Skin
5 Ki points


Fangs of the World Serpent
Magic Stone
1 Ki point


Fist of the Broken Stone
Earth Tremor
2 Ki points


Fury of the Titan 11th
Erupting Earth
4 Ki points


Sandstorm 6th
Dust Devil
3 Ki points


Way of Stone 11th
Meld into Stone
4 Ki points


Path of Stone 11th
Spider Climb
3 Ki points


Body of the Stone Monkey 17th
Investiture of Stone
6 Ki points


Call of the Land
Earthbind
2 Ki points


Shape the Ancient Rock
Stoneshape
1 Ki point


Unyielding Stance
Absorb Elements
2 Ki points


Wave of Rolling Earth 17th
Wall of Stone
6 Ki points



I think it gives a good mix of offense, and utility. I'm a little concerned that it relies heavily on Ki-Empowered Strikes to circumvent physical resistance (earth spells are all bludgeoning damage).

So I'm curious what people think about:
a.) single element monks
b.) having Ki-Empowerment apply to spell based physical damage
c.) allowing Way of the Elements monks access to the entire Elemental Disciplines list rather than Elemental Attunement +4 (too OP? I'm thinking it isn't, considering the monks limited Ki pool)

[Nowhere Girl]

So I'm curious what people think about:
a.) single element monks
b.) having Ki-Empowerment apply to spell based physical damage
c.) allowing Way of the Elements monks access to the entire Elemental Disciplines list rather than Elemental Attunement +4 (too OP? I'm thinking it isn't, considering the monks limited Ki pool)

I think it would be pretty incredible if you managed to make Way of the Four Elements monks too "op" ... or even just "relatively viable."

I don't know; to me, it just seems like their design is fundamentally broken. You have a martial class trying to play caster, but casters already do that much better. Gishes work best when there is synergy between their magic and their martial abilities; some good examples are how Eldritch Knights can use magic for self-buffs or how Paladins (any oath) can feed their magic directly into more weapon damage.

The Way of the Four Elements monks actually had a good example of how this should work in the form of the original Water Whip, which expended a bonus action to deal damage and apply an unfavorable condition (usually prone), setting up an opponent for some martial hurt. So that was a good example of a Way of the Four Elements ability that actually worked properly for a gish.

However, WotC noticed that and quickly nerfed it when they realized that somewhere out there, there might be an Elements monk who was not entirely useless after all.

I guess ... to fix them, you'd really want to first just overrule the errata and un-nerf Water Whip, then try to give them additional elemental techniques that follow the general model provided by that ability -- abilities that blend fairly seamlessly with their martial techniques and reward them for combining the two.

However, to answer your original question:

a. They have a hard road ahead of them, both due to how weak the archetype already is and because running into an enemy immune to your one element means you're basically nigh useless.

b. Yes.

c. I'm not sure. If you fix the powers enough to make them actually function, this may not be necessary. How much it could really become op depends on how much and what you add to the overall list.

[Capac Amaru]

There are a few synergies. The biggest problem is such limited spell selection.

Stoneskin, absorb elements and investiture of stone give you some interesting defensive buffs.

Many of them inflict prone or other status, push or otherwise move opponents, or create dangerous terrain.

Spider Climb, Meld into Stone, Investiture of Stone give you extra movement options.

Magic Stone gives you a ranged attack option.

Stoneshape and Mold Earth add some interesting non-combat utility.


Making a monk choose 5 of these seems a little undercooked.

Allowing access to all of them (level and Ki pending) seems to make up for some of the Way of the Elements issues, while keeping it tied up thematically.

a.) maybe we could add Elemental Bane as some kind of class feature, allowing the monk to strip away resistance?

b.) the list is right there. Its worth noting that a monk can only use (monk level) Ki points per day (until 20)

[Malifice]

I have a player in my campaign playing a Svirfneblin (Deep Gnome) monk. The party has just hit level 3, so the monk gets to choose between the three monastic traditions.

People seem to gravitate towards Open Hand, and Shadow, but it occurred to me that an Earth element focused Way of the Four Elements path would be a nice match thematically (and mechanically with Stone Camouflage).

The PHB suggests single element focused monks, but doesn't seem fit to actually build one.

You only get 5 (!) elemental disciplines, but the listed options do not have 5 of the earth element.

First, I went through the spells in the PHB and the EEPC, and I created a full list of Elemental Disciplines with an Earth element focus:




Spine of the World 17th
Bones of the Earth
6 Ki points


Grasp of the Earth Giant 6th
Maximilians Earthen Grasp
3 Ki points


Earth Attunement
Mold Earth
0 Ki points


Eternal Mountain Defense 11th
Stone Skin
5 Ki points


Fangs of the World Serpent
Magic Stone
1 Ki point


Fist of the Broken Stone
Earth Tremor
2 Ki points


Fury of the Titan 11th
Erupting Earth
4 Ki points


Sandstorm 6th
Dust Devil
3 Ki points


Way of Stone 11th
Meld into Stone
4 Ki points


Path of Stone 11th
Spider Climb
3 Ki points


Body of the Stone Monkey 17th
Investiture of Stone
6 Ki points


Call of the Land
Earthbind
2 Ki points


Shape the Ancient Rock
Stoneshape
1 Ki point


Unyielding Stance
Absorb Elements
2 Ki points


Wave of Rolling Earth 17th
Wall of Stone
6 Ki points



I think it gives a good mix of offense, and utility. I'm a little concerned that it relies heavily on Ki-Empowered Strikes to circumvent physical resistance (earth spells are all bludgeoning damage).

So I'm curious what people think about:
a.) single element monks
b.) having Ki-Empowerment apply to spell based physical damage
c.) allowing Way of the Elements monks access to the entire Elemental Disciplines list rather than Elemental Attunement +4 (too OP? I'm thinking it isn't, considering the monks limited Ki pool)

you could just refluff the options available to them as stone/ earth powers with a different damage type?

[BladeWing81]

This subclass won the March survey to address the poor feedback from it.... but since then I haven't seen or heard anything about it. what's even stranger is that the four element monk got squat when the elemental spells came into light. :smallfurious:

if you want to help and you're already doing some homebrewing, I would first suggest to add more ki using his Wisdom modifier to get two or maybe three more points to do more spells and check out the elemental evil adventurers handbook to get the most of the elemental spells available.:smallbiggrin:

I hope all these suggestions help but TBO I'm probably going to make a new monk and make either open hand or shadow... elemental is just a monk that maaaaaaybe some times might do a spell, Because without homebrewing the subclass is just not worth it.:smallfrown:

[DracoKnight]

Its worth noting that a monk can only use (monk level) Ki points per day (until 20)

Actually they get ki back on short rest :P

[Dralnu]

So I'm curious what people think about:
a.) single element monks
b.) having Ki-Empowerment apply to spell based physical damage
c.) allowing Way of the Elements monks access to the entire Elemental Disciplines list rather than Elemental Attunement +4 (too OP? I'm thinking it isn't, considering the monks limited Ki pool)

A) I think it's really cool and should be supported. Elemental monks should have the flexibility of dedicating themselves to a single element, dabbling in all of them, or anything in between.

B) Not necessary, as spells already overcome those resistances.

C) Not OP at all, a very good change if you want to keep things simple.


As written, elemental monks aren't really "gishes" in the traditional sense. Any ability they pick up that supposedly enhances their combat abilities is either overcosted and/or underpowered. Despite this, there are some sweet utility spells in their list that help them overcome situations that other monks couldn't. It doesn't matter if the utility spells are done better by full casters because they are not full casters, they are monks, so the best comparison is with other monk archetypes.

The biggest weaknesses of the elemental monk are:
1) Their abilities cost too much ki. The shadow monk also casts spells, but cost less ki to do so.
2) They gain no useful abilities that can be used without expending additional ki. The other archetypes get plenty of powerful abilities that do not require expending ki, which is a limited resource that is already used for many baseline monk abilities. Elemental monks are using the same resource to use any of their abilities as they are to Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, etc. And without ki, an Elemental Monk is indistinguishable from a baseline monk. That's awful.
3) Too limited spell selection. 5 over the course of 17 levels iirc, and one of them has to be Elemental Attunement (essentially a cantrip) at the beginning. Utility is nice, but when you get so little of it compared to the Shadow Monk, it sucks.

The community made a pretty elaborate fix for the Elemental Monk not too long ago. My sig holds my version of it.

[BladeWing81]

As written, elemental monks aren't really "gishes" in the traditional sense. Any ability they pick up that supposedly enhances their combat abilities is either overcosted and/or underpowered. Despite this, there are some sweet utility spells in their list that help them overcome situations that other monks couldn't. It doesn't matter if the utility spells are done better by full casters because they are not full casters, they are monks, so the best comparison is with other monk archetypes.

The biggest weaknesses of the elemental monk are:
1) Their abilities cost too much ki. The shadow monk also casts spells, but cost less ki to do so.
2) They gain no useful abilities that can be used without expending additional ki. The other archetypes get plenty of powerful abilities that do not require expending ki, which is a limited resource that is already used for many baseline monk abilities. Elemental monks are using the same resource to use any of their abilities as they are to Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, etc. And without ki, an Elemental Monk is indistinguishable from a baseline monk. That's awful.
3) Too limited spell selection. 5 over the course of 17 levels iirc, and one of them has to be Elemental Attunement (essentially a cantrip) at the beginning. Utility is nice, but when you get so little of it compared to the Shadow Monk, it sucks.

The community made a pretty elaborate fix for the Elemental Monk not too long ago. My sig holds my version of it.

Yep! that's it
2) is all you need to know why elemental monk is not really elemental. you need either more ki or make abilities less ki dependant.

[L Space]

The community made a pretty elaborate fix for the Elemental Monk not too long ago. My sig holds my version of it.

Ooh, I like that version much more than the RAW "Way of the Four Elements." Bonus points for your presentation, especially the art choices.

[BladeWing81]

The community made a pretty elaborate fix for the Elemental Monk not too long ago. My sig holds my version of it.
someone passed me that fix on another thread I just finished reading your version of the fix and started reading Person Mans version. Your's is an incredibly good improvement from the RAW version you fixed all of the problems you mentioned above and in the text itself, Not to mention the art of the fix is beautiful and even better than if it was from the unearthed Arcana. Kuddos!

[BladeWing81]

As written, elemental monks aren't really "gishes" in the traditional sense. Any ability they pick up that supposedly enhances their combat abilities is either overcosted and/or underpowered. Despite this, there are some sweet utility spells in their list that help them overcome situations that other monks couldn't. It doesn't matter if the utility spells are done better by full casters because they are not full casters, they are monks, so the best comparison is with other monk archetypes.

The biggest weaknesses of the elemental monk are:
1) Their abilities cost too much ki. The shadow monk also casts spells, but cost less ki to do so.
2) They gain no useful abilities that can be used without expending additional ki. The other archetypes get plenty of powerful abilities that do not require expending ki, which is a limited resource that is already used for many baseline monk abilities. Elemental monks are using the same resource to use any of their abilities as they are to Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, etc. And without ki, an Elemental Monk is indistinguishable from a baseline monk. That's awful.
3) Too limited spell selection. 5 over the course of 17 levels iirc, and one of them has to be Elemental Attunement (essentially a cantrip) at the beginning. Utility is nice, but when you get so little of it compared to the Shadow Monk, it sucks.


WotC Said that they were working on fixing the elemental Monk after the March Survey but have any news or any developer ever mention it since then? Gimme something please!:smalleek:

[Capac Amaru]

B) Not necessary, as spells already overcome those resistances.



Do spells that do physical damage count as magical for overcoming resistance?

[ad_hoc]

You could try using this Way of the Four Elements homebrew:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view?usp=sharing

[BladeWing81]

You could try using this Way of the Four Elements homebrew:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view?usp=sharing

Dralnu's version is already everything I want and more, to bad it can't be used on adventure league games. but on a normal game you bet I'm gonna use it!

[Dralnu]

someone passed me that fix on another thread I just finished reading your version of the fix and started reading Person Mans version. Your's is an incredibly good improvement from the RAW version you fixed all of the problems you mentioned above and in the text itself, Not to mention the art of the fix is beautiful and even better than if it was from the unearthed Arcana. Kuddos!

Thanks! At some point I'll go back and make it more "official" looking in Photoshop, as that's currently the rage on Reddit and stuff.

[L Space]

Thanks! At some point I'll go back and make it more "official" looking in Photoshop, as that's currently the rage on Reddit and stuff.

Well you certainly can, but I think it already looks pretty freakin' fantastic.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Do spells that do physical damage count as magical for overcoming resistance?Yes. Look at how resistances and immunities are worded:

Damage Immunities: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons that aren't silveredSpells aren't weapons so resistance/immunity to damage from weapons wouldn't apply.