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Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-05-20, 12:44 AM
I've heard of an ability or feat that allows undead to add their charisma modifiers to HP. I'm really not sure one exists, or if it's just specific to a few certain undead creatures. I ask because for fun, I made an ECL 30 undead character, with only 175 hp(including improved toughness)... I'm not impressed with that, so I want a boost. If anyone could help me I would be most appreciative.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-20, 12:46 AM
It first appears in Lirbis Mortis: The Book of Undead, IIRC. It is Charisma to HP.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-05-20, 12:48 AM
It first appears in Lirbis Mortis: The Book of Undead, IIRC. It is Charisma to HP.

And this is a feat?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-20, 12:52 AM
No. Ability of the creature.

Pepper
2007-05-20, 01:03 AM
I don't see any feat like that in the libris mortis. But this thread

http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-354813.html

from the wizards board discusses this.

Seems that monster manual 3 has a special quality called unholy toughness, that lets you do this.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-20, 01:10 AM
I thought Libris Mortis had it as an ability on some monsters as well. I know its in Lords of Madness.

The Glyphstone
2007-05-20, 05:04 AM
Yeah, it's on a select few monsters in LM and MM3 - the Dicefreaks guys like to add it to their undead templates at higher levels too. It's not a feat because it'd be too powerful at anything less than an Epic feat...one of the undead's primary weaknesses to compensate for their strengths and long list of resistances/immunities is that if you can actually land a blow and deal some damage, they usually can't take a whole lot of hurt. For undead PC's, it's even worse, as Constitution can literally be ignored/minimaxed out of existence, as it changes to a "-" when creation is finished. Now it's like creating a character with only 5 stats to worry about, and frees up the points a living character would spend in Con to keep themselves from croaking, and can put them into Cha for bonus HP, bonuses to any racial ability DC's, and even spells (for undead sorcerers/favored souls/etc.).

Everyman
2007-05-20, 08:52 PM
Glyph is pretty much right on with his comments. There really couldn't be a feat equivalent to Unholy Toughness without going epic. Heck, even at epic levels that would be a truly horrific feat to face. However, you have an epic character, and epic characters are known for their strange and powerful abilities. While I still wouldn't allow Unholy Toughness, you could try and see if your DM would allow this...

Undead Resilence [EPIC]
Prereq: Undead type, Cha 15
You may add one-half your Charisma modifier to your dice rolls when determining your bonus hit points. Otherwise, this functions as if you were alive and were adding your Constitution modifier.

I don't think that's too bad for an Epic feat.
EDIT: Yes, I made that up. Homebrew feats are fun.:smallsmile:

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-20, 11:32 PM
I don't think it's nearly as powerful as some people are making it out to be. You'd need a Cha of more than {HD*2}+10 to break it. If you're really that upset about it, go look at the Feat in PHB2 that lets you use Wisdom instead of Constitution for your HP(something like that. I think it was Wis mod for 1st level HP, and 1 more per level up).

Dausuul
2007-05-20, 11:59 PM
I don't think it's nearly as powerful as some people are making it out to be. You'd need a Cha of more than {HD*2}+10 to break it. If you're really that upset about it, go look at the Feat in PHB2 that lets you use Wisdom instead of Constitution for your HP(something like that. I think it was Wis mod for 1st level HP, and 1 more per level up).

As I understand it, the ability adds your Charisma bonus to each hit die, in much the same way Constitution does for living critters. That's where the brokenness comes from.

The Glyphstone
2007-05-21, 08:07 AM
I don't think it's nearly as powerful as some people are making it out to be. You'd need a Cha of more than {HD*2}+10 to break it. If you're really that upset about it, go look at the Feat in PHB2 that lets you use Wisdom instead of Constitution for your HP(something like that. I think it was Wis mod for 1st level HP, and 1 more per level up).

What feat is that? Steadfast Determination is the closest I can even remotely find - and that allows you to apply your Constitution instead of your Wisdom to your Will saves, not your Wisdom instead of your Constitution to your HP rolls.

Person_Man
2007-05-21, 08:39 AM
Quoted directly from the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a):


Beauty's Bounty [General]

You rely on your charm and physical good looks to keep you safe from harm

Prerequisite: Fey

Benefit: At 1st level, you may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Constitution modifier to determine bonus hit points. At each level thereafter, you use your Constitution modifier normally to determine bonus hit points, but you also gain +1 hit point for every point of permanent Charisma you gain. In addition, Charisma increases can retroactively increase the bonus hit points from your first level.

Should you suffer any Charisma decreases, your bonus hit points from your first level also decrease, and you lose any extra bonus hit points you have gained from Charisma increases. These hit point decreases persist for as long as your Charisma decrease lasts.

There are a variety of Fey-type races. So if you wanted Cha to hit points, this could help you. Also, Charming the Arrow (Cha instead of Dex for bows) makes Paladin or Hexblade archer builds playable. Though in my opinion, many X to Y feats are a waste, especially when they switch some bonus to less useful stats like Cha.

Dausuul
2007-05-21, 09:08 AM
Quoted directly from the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a):There are a variety of Fey-type races. So if you wanted Cha to hit points, this could help you. Also, Charming the Arrow (Cha instead of Dex for bows) makes Paladin or Hexblade archer builds playable. Though in my opinion, many X to Y feats are a waste, especially when they switch some bonus to less useful stats like Cha.

Charisma is highly useful for the classes that use it, which is why such feats are handy. I'd pay two or three feats for the ability to have my sorceror use Charisma instead of Con for hit points.

One of my favorite parts of Iron Heroes is the trait that lets you pick one stat and use it in place of Strength for a particular weapon. That one trait adds so many new options for designing an effective character.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-21, 09:10 AM
There are a variety of Fey-type races. So if you wanted Cha to hit points, this could help you. Also, Charming the Arrow (Cha instead of Dex for bows) makes Paladin or Hexblade archer builds playable. Though in my opinion, many X to Y feats are a waste, especially when they switch some bonus to less useful stats like Cha.

That's similar to what I was thinking of. Except Wis instead of Cha. I don't remember where it came from though. Not PHB2, but for the life of me, I can't remember which book. Doesn't appear to be from Heroes of Horror either.

Person_Man
2007-05-21, 12:38 PM
That's similar to what I was thinking of. Except Wis instead of Cha. I don't remember where it came from though. Not PHB2, but for the life of me, I can't remember which book. Doesn't appear to be from Heroes of Horror either.

Serenity is a Dragon Magazine feat that moves all of your Paladin bonuses from Cha to Wis. Zen Archery moves your ranged attacks from Dex to Wis.

More here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889&pp=30).

Telonius
2007-05-21, 12:44 PM
That's similar to what I was thinking of. Except Wis instead of Cha. I don't remember where it came from though. Not PHB2, but for the life of me, I can't remember which book. Doesn't appear to be from Heroes of Horror either.

I know there was one from the Faerun setting, Mind over Body, that let you substitute either Int or Cha for Con at first level, and added one extra HP occasionally thereafter. Can't recall anything for Wisdom though.

Telonius
2007-05-21, 12:53 PM
Cancel that, I just found it through an online source. "Wisdom breeds caution" from Underdark p27.

Piccamo
2007-05-21, 01:43 PM
As I understand it, the ability adds your Charisma bonus to each hit die, in much the same way Constitution does for living critters. That's where the brokenness comes from.
You're talking about undead being broken. lets see what exactly undead get as their traits for their type:


Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.

Features: An undead creature has the following features.
* 12-sided Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard).
* Good Will saves.
* Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
* No Constitution score.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
* Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
* Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
* Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
* Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
* Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


You get a wizard without the spells and possibly less HP. There are a couple of nice immunities until you consider things that affect objects really mess you up. Finally, you're individually weak. You can survive better than some others, but you can't hurt anyone yourself. Tell me how that 1d6 + 12 is working out for you at level 8. Any undead, like any other type, is better off with class levels. Adding Charisma to HP isn't all that bad. It makes undead more bearable. I'd still rather play outsider if I had to play any type :smallwink:

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-21, 09:19 PM
The only advantage Undead have with their HD is that you get 1d12 for all your Hit Dice forever more. Which makes the Emancipated Spawn kind of stupid. "You regain all your class features, including Hit Dice." Seriously, WTF? Part of the whole smegging point of becoming Undead in the first place is so I could replace the 1d4-5(practically dead Venerable Elf who put a 9 in Constitution at CharGen) with 1d12(+ whatever). Utterly stupid. The whole 1d12 HD comes from being Undead. Has nothing whatsoever to do with being a spawn(aside from the incidental being killed by your former master in order to become Undead to begin with).

brian c
2007-05-21, 11:02 PM
Serenity is a Dragon Magazine feat that moves all of your Paladin bonuses from Cha to Wis. Zen Archery moves your ranged attacks from Dex to Wis.

More here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889&pp=30).

Serenity is awesome. I wish I had found that feat before I made a monk/paladin, which I'm aware (ahem, Person_Man) is unoptimized at any rate. A monk/paladin with Ascetic Knight, and using Wisdom for saves is very nice. Reduces the MAD to Wis/Dex/Con/Str, and take off Str if you have Intuitive Attack (at the cost of a little damage)