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Tyrael
2007-05-20, 02:41 AM
from the PBHII. Basically, enemy gets bonus to attack/damage against you, and every time he swings, you get a free AoO against him.

My question is, what are people's opinions on this feat? Broken? Balanced? What's the best way to maximize its potential? I know there's the obvious pump-the-AC approach, but is there anything else?

kpenguin
2007-05-20, 02:46 AM
Cover/Concealment might help. That +4 bonus doesn't matter as much if there's a percentage chance of your opponent missing. And you still get those AoAs.

By the way, I thought that Robilar's Gambit was in PHB2

Tyrael
2007-05-20, 02:50 AM
Edited with correct citation. He gains a +4 to attack/damage, so I guess that at least negates the penalty.

kpenguin
2007-05-20, 02:53 AM
Ah, but the bonus does nothing for concealment, which has gives you a chance of your opponent missing no matter what.

Robilar's Gambit is also useful against monsters that have such high attack bonuses that it becomes impossible for them to miss except unless a natural 1is rolled.

Spiryt
2007-05-20, 04:09 AM
Robilar's Gambit is also useful against monsters that have such high attack bonuses that it becomes impossible for them to miss except unless a natural 1is rolled.

On the other hand, + 4 to damage can be very painful if enemy is two weapon fighter/ hydra. So better don't use it against enemies who have many attacks.

Miles Invictus
2007-05-20, 04:45 AM
It's not overpowered on its own -- even with Combat Reflexes, you're limited (by your Dex modifier) in the number of AoOs you can make. And any situation where you can ignore the penalties is the sort of situation you're going to steamroll through anyway.

Now, as far as maximizing its usefulness...isn't there a feat (Karmic Strike or something?) that does damage to an enemy based on how much damage you've recently received?

Tyrael
2007-05-20, 06:25 AM
You know, strictly reading the feat....it says that the enemy provokes an AoO every time he attacks. Doesn't say every time he attacks YOU, just every time he attacks. Therefore, by a literal reading, if you designate a foe for this and he attacks another party member, you should get AoOs when he attacks the other person.

Additionally, I don't see anything that says this cannot be used with ranged weapons.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-20, 06:30 AM
Cover/Concealment might help. That +4 bonus doesn't matter as much if there's a percentage chance of your opponent missing. And you still get those AoAs.
Assuming any cover you may have applies only to your opponents attacks and not your own. Not the easiest of situations.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-05-20, 06:35 AM
Additionally, I don't see anything that says this cannot be used with ranged weapons.
Because you don't threaten with a ranged weapon, and thus can't take AoOs?

Pauwel
2007-05-20, 06:35 AM
Additionally, I don't see anything that says this cannot be used with ranged weapons.

You can't make AOOs with ranged weapons.

EDIT: Damn, too slow.

Suvarov454
2007-05-20, 07:13 AM
You can with the spell Arrow Mind. It's in the Spell Compendium and I think it's also in Complete Divine (I may well be mis-remembering this last source).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-20, 09:25 AM
You can with the spell Arrow Mind. It's in the Spell Compendium and I think it's also in Complete Divine (I may well be mis-remembering this last source).
Yeah, you are. It's Complete Adventurer.

Note Spell Compendium was the most recently published, and, therefore the "official" source. If there's any discrepency between versions, that's the one you should use.

Of course, I don't own Spell Compendium, so I use the Complete Adventurer version anyway.

Sabattus
2007-05-20, 11:24 AM
Assuming any cover you may have applies only to your opponents attacks and not your own. Not the easiest of situations.

Three words: Cloak of Displacement. :smallbiggrin:

Sulecrist
2007-05-20, 12:50 PM
If you combine it with Channel the Storm (from Stormguard Warrior, TOB page 36) do you get a cumulative +4 for each attack you don't make? If so, then you don't even need Combat Reflexes. Provoke five attacks, refrain from five attacks, and do +20/+20 to each of your own.

Would that work?

The_Snark
2007-05-20, 12:54 PM
If you combine it with Channel the Storm (from Stormguard Warrior, TOB page 36) do you get a cumulative +4 for each attack you don't make? If so, then you don't even need Combat Reflexes. Provoke five attacks, refrain from five attacks, and do +20/+20 to each of your own.

Would that work?

Yes. It's a very nifty combo. The more they try to hit you, the more pain they will be in by next round. Only flaw is that they have to be attacking you to use it.

Robilar's Gambit is also nice with Shock Trooper, because anybody using Shock Trooper has already given up on their chances of not being hit, and the massive Power Attack bonus is still hanging around.

Catch
2007-05-20, 01:03 PM
If you combine it with Channel the Storm (from Stormguard Warrior, TOB page 36) do you get a cumulative +4 for each attack you don't make? If so, then you don't even need Combat Reflexes. Provoke five attacks, refrain from five attacks, and do +20/+20 to each of your own.

Would that work?

Combine that with the Supreme Blade Parry stance, which gives you DR 5/-, negating the bonus damage given by Robilar's Gambit. Slice, dice, rinse and repeat.

Tyrael
2007-05-20, 04:11 PM
Combine that with the Supreme Blade Parry stance, which gives you DR 5/-, negating the bonus damage given by Robilar's Gambit. Slice, dice, rinse and repeat.

Where is that feat from?

squishycube
2007-05-20, 04:17 PM
Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Supreme+Blade+Parry%22&btnG=Search) tells me it's from Tome of Battle.

Lemur
2007-05-20, 04:26 PM
Elusive Target (CW) is a useful feat to combine with Rolibar's Gambit, or Karmic Strike, for that matter. The +4 to hit means that if your opponent has power attack, he can easily get +4 to +8 extra damage to each of his attacks, which Elusive Target helps to eliminate.

Mad Wizard
2007-05-20, 04:28 PM
Edit: misinterpreted the question. It's from the Tome of Battle.

The_Snark
2007-05-20, 04:32 PM
Where is that feat from?

Stormguard Warrior is a feat from Tome of Battle. Supreme Blade Parry isn't actually a feat; you'd need to be a Tome of Battle class to get access to it.

Karmic Strike is a good one if you've given up on enemies missing you. Elusive Target is just an all-around good feat, I think.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-20, 04:52 PM
If you combine it with Channel the Storm (from Stormguard Warrior, TOB page 36) do you get a cumulative +4 for each attack you don't make? If so, then you don't even need Combat Reflexes. Provoke five attacks, refrain from five attacks, and do +20/+20 to each of your own.

Would that work?

Yes, yes it will. Supreme Blade Parry is definitely not the way to go here, however.

What you need to do is get Combat Expertise since you can compensate the attack bonus creatures get against you with it. Furthermore, for a truly Channel the Storm-centric build you can get Defensive Sweep (PHB2) and Thicket of Blades stance (Devoted Spirit 3rd level stance) while wielding something along the lines of a Spiked Chain.

Another concept is using Robilar's Gambit with Evasive Reflexes (ToB feat) and Shifting Defense (Setting Sun stance), allowing you to move 10 feet whenever someone misses you (out of the reach of many opponents, ideally within your reach).

Edo
2007-05-20, 05:21 PM
Another concept is using Robilar's Gambit with Evasive Reflexes (ToB feat) and Shifting Defense (Setting Sun stance), allowing you to move 10 feet whenever someone misses you (out of the reach of many opponents, ideally within your reach).Without a one-level dip in swordsage, Shifting Defense is overly feat-intensive. If you're a warblade, it's better to just take Press the Advantage instead.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-20, 05:58 PM
if you have a large AC it can be devastating. but with it's pre req's and other feats needed to exploit it to its full advantage it's a large investment.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-20, 06:05 PM
Indeed. I completely forgot about that stance. Though, in my defense, Shifting Defense is only feat intensive if you choose to get it using silly methods. The ideal way would be getting an Item of Setting Sun and then taking Martial Stance.

_tick:
What, Robilar's Gambit? The investment pays off, definitely. Most of the other feats are generally very good to have even if you didn't have Robilar's Gambit.

Edo
2007-05-20, 06:17 PM
Indeed. I completely forgot about that stance. Though, in my defense, Shifting Defense is only feat intensive if you choose to get it using silly methods. The ideal way would be getting an Item of Setting Sun and then taking Martial Stance.Shifting Defense needs two prereq maneuvers to get it, so it's still costing two feats: the one for Shifting Defense itself and the one for either a Setting Sun maneuver or a way to wear two pairs of slippers.

Call me lazy, but I'd rather just take the White Raven at 10th and save myself the trouble.

DreadArchon
2007-05-20, 06:30 PM
Call me lazy, but I'd rather just take the White Raven at 10th and save myself the trouble.
You think you're lazy? I'd just spend all my feats and wealth on offense and hope everything is dead before my massive damage intake catches up to me. Power Attacking Barbarian with a dang expensive scythe and Reckless Assault! Kil, kill, kill! (Though obviously there's a problem with this: You need Dex for Gambit and Str for using a two-hander well. Still...)

Everyman
2007-05-20, 09:08 PM
You know, this would be an interesting feat for a Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) to pick up. The miss chance they almost always have would sync very well with the extra attacks. Besides, giving a speed-freak more attacks per round in a crazy, reckless manner just sounds like something a swiftblade would do.:smallbiggrin:

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-20, 09:37 PM
Three words: Cloak of Displacement. :smallbiggrin:
A cloak of displacement only grants the miss chance of concealment. It does not grant actual concealment or any of the other benefits of concealment.

Pink
2007-05-20, 11:08 PM
How come nobody has suggested using this with crusader yet to make the most of that counter attack ability of it if you do get hit. If they miss, you get your free attack, if they hit you get your free attack that does more damage as well. Seems pretty solid if you ask me.

IonizedChicken
2007-05-21, 04:10 AM
Shifting Defense needs two prereq maneuvers to get it, so it's still costing two feats: the one for Shifting Defense itself and the one for either a Setting Sun maneuver or a way to wear two pairs of slippers.

Call me lazy, but I'd rather just take the White Raven at 10th and save myself the trouble.
Calling you lazy? Not at all. Pressing the Advantage is a much better method to accomplish the same thing.

henebry
2007-05-21, 08:53 AM
Yeah, you are. It's Complete Adventurer.

Note Spell Compendium was the most recently published, and, therefore the "official" source. If there's any discrepency between versions, that's the one you should use.

Of course, I don't own Spell Compendium, so I use the Complete Adventurer version anyway.

I've got the Spell Compendium version right here. Says you threaten with your bow within your normal melee range, going on to define it as 5' for small and medium, 10' for large. So, no, Arrow Mind does not give you AOOs as ranged attacks.

Person_Man
2007-05-21, 09:31 AM
It's one of the best melee feats out there, in my opinion. But the BAB requirement is +12. So by the time your meatshield is using it, the arcane caster in the party has Contingency, Mislead, Disintegrate, and other potent spells. So Rob's Gambit is great, but like all melee combos, comparatively weak.

As IonizedChicken suggests, it works with Evasive Reflexes to foil almost any full attack. This works particularly well if you use a reach weapon.

An even better combo uses Rob's Gambit with Knockback and the standard Leap Attack+Shock Trooper. They swing at you, you hit them, and get a free Bull Rush attempt, and you can aim them into other people, knocking them Prone. Their full attack should be foiled, but you don't have to give up your free hit, and you can use it as battlefield control.

Another combo is to use it with Knock-Down, Snap Kick, Karmic Strike, the Barbarian's Whirling Frenzy, and/or the Frostrager's One-Two Punch+Rend. They swing at you once, you hit them more then once.

Or there's always the classic Claws of the Beast+Claws of the Vampire. They swing at you, you swing at them and heal half the damage you deal.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-21, 09:36 AM
I've got the Spell Compendium version right here. Says you threaten with your bow within your normal melee range, going on to define it as 5' for small and medium, 10' for large. So, no, Arrow Mind does not give you AOOs as ranged attacks.

Some Medium characters have greater reach than 5' though(like anything with Inhuman Reach Feat), while some Large characters have less than 10'(eg, Centaur).:smalltongue:

Dant
2007-05-21, 10:10 AM
A thought occurred to me. I could see Shock Troopper + Robilar's Gambit + Combat Reflexes, combined with Frenzied Berserker. Frenzy and just ignore the fact that you're getting hit. Not horribly overpowered by any means, but I can see it working. Thoughts?

Person_Man
2007-05-21, 10:37 AM
A thought occurred to me. I could see Shock Troopper + Robilar's Gambit + Combat Reflexes, combined with Frenzied Berserker. Frenzy and just ignore the fact that you're getting hit. Not horribly overpowered by any means, but I can see it working. Thoughts?

The FB's Frenzy is really, really easy to set off. Even if you take the standard precaution of having multiple party members with access to Calm Emotions, it will be very difficult for you to save your Frenzies for when you need them. Since a single pissed off Kobold will waste your Frenzy at the beginning of the game day, you won't have it to fight the BBEG at the end of the game day. Thus, you're mechanically better off going with some other PrC that has special abilities you can use when you want to use them.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-21, 11:37 AM
The FB's Frenzy is really, really easy to set off. Even if you take the standard precaution of having multiple party members with access to Calm Emotions, it will be very difficult for you to save your Frenzies for when you need them. Since a single pissed off Kobold will waste your Frenzy at the beginning of the game day, you won't have it to fight the BBEG at the end of the game day. Thus, you're mechanically better off going with some other PrC that has special abilities you can use when you want to use them.

Myth. The Will save is ridiculously easy to make unless you take large amounts of damage. Like if someone were to slap you for 1d3 damage, you're unlikely to break into a Frenzy(unless you really wanted to). You'll have 3 uses of it by the time you get Supreme Power Attack. The "standard" day seldom goes past 3 combat encounters. You can only Frenzy once per combat/encounter, no matter how many uses you have or how many times you take damage.

Person_Man
2007-05-21, 12:05 PM
Myth. The Will save is ridiculously easy to make unless you take large amounts of damage. Like if someone were to slap you for 1d3 damage, you're unlikely to break into a Frenzy(unless you really wanted to). You'll have 3 uses of it by the time you get Supreme Power Attack. The "standard" day seldom goes past 3 combat encounters. You can only Frenzy once per combat/encounter, no matter how many uses you have or how many times you take damage.

You must make a Will Save each time you take damage, or you enter a Frenzy. The DC is equal to 10+ the damage taken since your last round. So the Kobold hitting you for 2 points of damage is a DC 12 Save, the next Kobold is a DC 14 Save, etc. Anyone hitting you for even mediocre damage is likely to give you a Save that you can only pass by rolling a natural 20, and it's likely you'll have to make several Saves per round, since you're the party meatshield. Also keep in mind that your Frenzy can be set off by anything that deals damage, including traps. So its highly probably that you will use a Frenzy every combat until you run out of uses per day. Until you reach high levels, this means you'll run out of Frenzy very soon, and will rarely get a chance to use it when you need it.

The DMG suggests 4 encounters per game day for a "standard" game. If your party includes full casters, most DMs I know use more, to balance them out against "all day" classes like Skill Monkeys and melee types. Almost every BBEG has minions and a dungeon/castle/ruins/mansion/etc filled with encounters that you have to go through before you get to the "real" fight, where Frenzy could make a difference.

And there's always the possibility of killing your party members with your Frenzy.

So on balance, its really not worth it in my opinion, even with Supreme Power Attack.

Dant
2007-05-21, 12:55 PM
And there's always the possibility of killing your party members with your Frenzy.


Never specified that it had to leave the rest of the party alive:smalltongue:

I'm well aware of the limitations on Frenzy. Like I said, I know it's not an optimized build, particularly for an actual campaign. I'm merely curious as to how it might measure up on an encounter-per-encounter basis.

Although I actually sorta like the character concept... Maybe take Goliath with the barbarian substitution levels to start. Should be able to get decent damage output, at least a few times per day. At the very least, if you're out of Frenzy for the last couple encounters, I'm fairly certain you can still rage.