So, how would the comic go if Roy stayed dead?

[Charles Phipps]

At least in the context he'd only continue to appear to Elan or otherwise in a spirit/undead context as opposed to a living being. I rather like the idea that his final end despite his heroism was to die in a rather meaningless fashion. It fits his luck as the Charlie Brown of heroes.

It's not that I don't like Roy. I love the character, he's an awesome straight man but changes like this are just the meat and drink of the strip.

I still have a funny feeling that Roy isn't coming back and will happily remove my icon if it proves to be different. Nevertheless, I'm still of the mind that the poor guy has breathed his last.

The Giant just doesn't seem like he'll devalue a death like that. In 8bit it took years to convince people Black Belt was gone.

[TerraNova]

I think we've got a pretty popular soon to be ex-Lord of a soon to be ex-city hanging out with the group right now... I think he fits the bill rather perfectly.

[TheAlmightyOne]

Well he did kill off shojo but dont forget that Xykon 'died' then returned. Roy might always die for a while then return in a very unlikly series of events.

[Zafuel]

Roy replaced by Hinjo? I just don't know... I like the idea of him appearing to Elan or someone, a la Obi Wan.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Giant has constantly said in the books how this is Roy's story... so I don't think it would really work without him.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I don't think Roy can stay dead and have the story make sense. This is Roy's story, he is the main character. Any of the rest of the cast can die and the story will continue on, but destroying Xykon is Roy's quest, while the rest are technically Roy's employees.

The thing to keep in mind is how much time has passed in this most recent chain of events, which is about two days. The new story arc only began at strip 400, although the events have been building up since the end of Redmountian, and Xykon got the ball rolling for his crew at 300.

Roy has only been dead for about 20 minutes. It takes time to draw and present the rest of the material. Whether Hinjo takes Roy's position at primary meatshield is open to debate, but Haley is second in command, and she has already begun making decisions for the team.

I don't see how six heroes can take back Azure City by themselves, but this is D&D, and this type of thing is what makes the game so much fun after 30+ years.

[Freelance Henchman]

Roy has only been dead for about 20 minutes.

The action has certainly speeded up. Previously we got almost day-by-day updates, and now its getting closer to round-by-round. Its definitely too early to say Roy is utterly dead and gone from the story.

[Woof]

Didn't Elan already say in his song that they're going to raise Roy? So I don't see why that shouldn't happen. While the battle was still raging outside I considered it a possibility that team evil might raise him as undead, but they've passed his body by now. So yes, I think he will come back - the subplot revolving around Roy isn't resolved yet anyway (his oath to kill Xykon and then there's also his relationship with Celia). I also agree that Roy is essentially the main character - he is the leader of the party after all. Of course, PCs can and do die in D&D games, even at inconvenient points in time, but this comic isn't just an objective description of a D&D session, it's about story-telling. And a story just doesn't make much sense if the main character is killed off in the middle of it.

So I'll treat this as a purely hypothetical question and say that if Roy remained dead for whatever reason, no matter how unlikely it is, I would love to see Hinjo the OOTS. Even though I'm aware of the fact that it likely wouldn't work due to Belkar being a party member.

[Charles Phipps]

The Giant has constantly said in the books how this is Roy's story... so I don't think it would really work without him.

well the best authors are frequently liars or change their mind.

;-)

Plus, there's also the fact that they may be prevented from raising him for any number of reasons. Even in Xykon's defeat was Roy's quest alone, everyone wants to destroy him now for their own reasons. His oath could be fulfilled through his friends.

Besides, Elan is the true Fighting God amongst them now!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

So I'll treat this as a purely hypothetical question and say that if Roy remained dead for whatever reason, no matter how unlikely it is, I would love to see Hinjo the OOTS. Even though I'm aware of the fact that it likely wouldn't work due to Belkar being a party member.

Unless Hinjo decided to try and redeem or rehabilitate Belkar...

True, Belkar is Chaotic Evil, and Hinjo is Lawful Good, but I thought Roy was also LG, and he took Belkar on the team anyways. It is Roy's threat to have the entire remaining party kick the dog-snot out of Belkar if B attacks anyone that keeps B in line.

Hinjo may offer Belkar the same deal, and even toss in a reduction of a year or so from his manslaughter charges...

[Charles Phipps]

I also think that Hinjo might be amusing to say...

"Belkar, you do realize you haven't killed anyone evil in over a year right?"

"Yeah so?"

"ALIGNMENT CHANGE TO CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!"

"NOOOOOOOO!"

[Jayabalard]

I think the answer is either:

"poorly."
"who cares?"

[the_tick_rules]

i hope he comes back eventually.

[Charles Phipps]

I think the answer is either:

"poorly."
"who cares?"


I don't get 2#.

[Gavin Sage]

I don't know if I've yet encounter the story that kills the protagonist and doesn't revive them. Okay there was one RPG that didn't make you, but you could. Even if it takes awhile Roy will come back.

Heck given we don't know how Giant depicts -HP to my knowledge.

[Querzis]

They can raise him, they want to raise him, they will raise him quite easely since 5 000 gold is pocket money for adventurer of their level and Roy will obviously want to come back so could I know why Roy shoudnt come back? Beside, at it has been already said, this is Roy story. If Roy doesnt come back, then the group will disband, thats all. And Belkar and V are likely to try to kill each other as soon as they realize Roy is not there to stop them anymore. As for Hinjo, even if the city is destroyed, he is just not the same level as the OOTS not to mention the fact that I see no reason why he would follow them. He cant travel with Belkar anyway or he lose his paladin power and, even if he is the last survivor of the saphire guard, he still cant betray Soon oath or he will lose his paladin power so he cant go to Girard gate. If he try to do anything, it would be to take the city back.

[TheNovak]

I think that if they tried to rez Roy, he'd have no choice but to come back...that whole Blood Oath of Vengeance thing seems pretty binding to a Lawful guy. So it's really just a matter of them getting to his body, throwing him in one of Haley's Bags of Holding, and vacating the premesis.

Whether he returns or not, though, I'd still love to see Hinjo join the Order. If Xykon destroys the Gate, I imagine the Sapphire Guards' oath would change to protecting the remaining gates, which is where the Order'll be heading next-ish.

[Corncracker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the oath to Soon to protect the Gate? IF the gate gets destroyed, what obligation is keeping him there?

Also, traveling with Belkar will not kill off his alignment. He thinks Belkar is changing his ways now. Remember after Miko killed Shojo, she went after the halfling. Since Belkar didn't run, Shinjo thought that his time with the Mark of Justice began to Change Belkar. So he would think he is traveling with a rehabilitated murderer, so there is no reason for him to fall.

Edit: Also, I'd like to See O'chul Join over Shinjo. I like Shinjo and all, but O'chul kicks butt, and he fought Xykon already, and I want a round 2 dammit!

[Tharr]

The great Al Sharton comes with lawyers with power of the rule you killed the minority character law suit power. Later then Roy shows up in the shower and freaks out Celia. Maybe even by luck Roy could be alive be named Roy Grey with some powers like Xmen 3 the movie was done.

[Demented]

Nah, don't do X-men. Do LotR!
Behold the return of: Roy the White.

Wait... something went wrong.
My windows are covered in lawyers.

[David Demola]

I don't think Roy can stay dead and have the story make sense. This is Roy's story, he is the main character. Any of the rest of the cast can die and the story will continue on, but destroying Xykon is Roy's quest, while the rest are technically Roy's employees.


Look at how more epic and real this would be, though: He dies, and now you have the main plot being that the people whose contracts are expired, and don't have to continue, fight on to avenge the life of their cherished leader. I think it would be a brilliant idea if Roy stays dead, and doesn't do the Obi-Wan recurring idea. You just have the rest of the party hell-bent on revenge.

Of course, the whole "light-hearted" part of the comic would kind of have to die off...which would suck donkey sack. So please don't do that, El Gigante.

[Querzis]

Also, traveling with Belkar will not kill off his alignment. He thinks Belkar is changing his ways now. Remember after Miko killed Shojo, she went after the halfling. Since Belkar didn't run, Shinjo thought that his time with the Mark of Justice began to Change Belkar. So he would think he is traveling with a rehabilitated murderer, so there is no reason for him to fall.

What he believe is totally irrevelant. Miko believed she was right, that didnt prevent her from falling. Paladin cant adventure with evil people, thats all. And seriously, if you really think the OOTS can hold down without Roy I dont think you have been reading the same comic as me. They can fight together for sometimes but every two or three day until now in the comic, there as been situation where the OOTS would disband if it wasnt for Roy (if not disband then at least many situation were Belkar would have killed someone or where someone would have killed Belkar without Roy.) I'm not saying that they cant survive without him or anything, just that they cant be a group without him, V and Belkar would kill each other after an hour or two. Not to mention that nobody is a good leader except him. Haley is smart and got charisma but she as no authority and she is way too much carefree. Durkon just dont have enough charisma for this, same thing for V and lets just not talk about Elan or Belkar.

[Borris]

I'm quite sure Roy will come back pretty soon (main character. it's his story, etc.) but, for the sake of debate, let's assume he stays dead...

Imagine how much fun he's going to have spending his eternity with his dad after having failed his blood oath.

- This never would have happened if you'd gone to wizard school.
- Come on, dad, fighter is a perfectly valid adventuring carreer choice. Besides, I did all I could to avenge your death, which is probably more than you deserved, now that I think about it.
- I mean, you've got your father's Intelligence score. You would have made a pretty good wizard, but Noo! Mister Independant had to swing a big stick. If you'd taken even one level of wizard, you could have cast Feather Fall back then and still be alright. Besides, you're a human. You wouldn't even have had an XP penalty.
- Uh, dad? Now that I'm a ghost, I can only get hurt by force effects or other incorporeal creatures, right?
- That and ghost touch weapons. That's one of the first thing they teach you in wizard school. A single rank of Knowledge (arcana) will tell you this.
- Good. That's all I wanted to know. *Punch in the face* Wow, that felt good. I'd been waiting 400 strips for this moment.

[Charles Phipps]

Seriously, I have no doubt in my mind that Roy is irrelevant to the quest to destroy Xykon now. All of the Order of the Stick is utterly committed to saving the ENTIRE PLANET (you know, where they live) from his wrath. Roy's little quest for revenge is no longer a factor except to him.

As for Roy being the "main character." This cheeses me off because I don't even understand what he does have the time. Maybe it comes from not reading the physical comics. Roy's the straight man but otherwise doesn't really do much for me. To me, this is an ensemble piece. Roy is no more the star than Haley or Elan. Both whom I find much more entertaining as well as better leaders for the party.

This isn't 'his' quest because they destroyed Xykon long ago and STILL stayed together.

As for how not-resurrection Roy. It doesn't matter how the Giant does it, I'm sure he'll come up with a good reason why he won't come back. Maybe his corpse gets dragged off by the Darkness or is animated. Maybe he doesn't want to come back for now. I think the question is which is the better story and Roy dead strikes me as such.

[Death Giant]

Everybody except :haley: and :elan: would die then elan would pick up :roy: 's sword and destroy :xykon: once and for all then, Haley and Elan would have a glorious ending.:wink:.

[Death Giant]

Everybody except :haley: and :elan: would die then elan would pick up :roy: 's sword and destroy :xykon: once and for all then, Haley and Elan would have a glorious ending.:wink:.[/QUOTE]

[Gavin Sage]

As for Roy being the "main character." This cheeses me off because I don't even understand what he does have the time. Maybe it comes from not reading the physical comics. Roy's the straight man but otherwise doesn't really do much for me. To me, this is an ensemble piece. Roy is no more the star than Haley or Elan. Both whom I find much more entertaining as well as better leaders for the party.

Roy is the leader, the original organizer, and the straight man. Plus we know more about him then the rest of the party combined (okay excluding Elan) and so he is well away as the most developed. While the comic is an ensemble it still has a main character a notch above the others. He's far from the most entertaining, but that's okay because he's the straight man. He's the guy we loook to to echo our "what the..." feeling when someone does something stupid and because he is there we laugh harder.

Nobody else is there that can really fill that role.

[lared]

Observing the plot from a meta-drama perspective, I think it's highly unlikely Roy will stay dead. If he does though, he'll need to be replaced by a party member who can take the comedic role of straight man, but that's not as difficult as it might seem. Hinjo would be a decent fit for this and pretty well positioned to slide right in. Miko might also work, but she's more the "oblivious" comedic archetype than a true straight man. (Oblivious in a different way than Elan, naturally...)

[Kreistor]

As for how not-resurrection Roy. It doesn't matter how the Giant does it, I'm sure he'll come up with a good reason why he won't come back. Maybe his corpse gets dragged off by the Darkness or is animated. Maybe he doesn't want to come back for now. I think the question is which is the better story and Roy dead strikes me as such.

Four hundred quatlus on Roy coming back!

Raise Dead is part of DnD, and this comic is about DnD. Durkon already said he'd do it when they had the chance. Like it or not, characters coming back from the dead is an integral part of the gaming experience, so it needs to be a part of this comic.

[Shadic]

So, how would the comic go if Roy stayed dead?

It wouldn't.

The Order of the Stick have come a long way under Roy's leadership, but they still lack the ability to function as a whole together, without a leader. Sure, they did decent in the fight against the Linear Guild, but they didn't put up much resistance.

Unless Hinjo loses his city and decides to march them around instead, I don't see this group to hold together for much longer.

[Corncracker]

What he believe is totally irrevelant. Miko believed she was right, that didnt prevent her from falling. Paladin cant adventure with evil people, thats all. And seriously, if you really think the OOTS can hold down without Roy I dont think you have been reading the same comic as me. They can fight together for sometimes but every two or three day until now in the comic, there as been situation where the OOTS would disband if it wasnt for Roy (if not disband then at least many situation were Belkar would have killed someone or where someone would have killed Belkar without Roy.) I'm not saying that they cant survive without him or anything, just that they cant be a group without him, V and Belkar would kill each other after an hour or two. Not to mention that nobody is a good leader except him. Haley is smart and got charisma but she as no authority and she is way too much carefree. Durkon just dont have enough charisma for this, same thing for V and lets just not talk about Elan or Belkar.

What one believes is not totally irrelevent. Look at all Miko did thinking she was right without falling. She hadn't crossed the line until Shojo. If what one believed was irrelevent, she would have lost her power quite a while ago. In the case of Miko, she gained her powers from the Gods. She fell from the Gods favor by killing Shojo.

Now lets examine Shinjo traveling with Belkar. He is doing it for the greater good, and saving the world and all that. He is unaware he is working with someone evil. SInce he is in the Saphire Gaurd, its safe to assume he gets his powers from the same gods as Miko. HE already lessened Belkars sentance, and offered to remove Belkars MoJ after the battle. So he is going easier on an evil character because he believes he is good, yet he still has his Paladin powers.

It makes more sense that unless he goes to far Like Miko did, then there is no reason for him to lose his power.

[Querzis]

What one believes is not totally irrelevent. Look at all Miko did thinking she was right without falling. She hadn't crossed the line until Shojo. If what one believed was irrelevent, she would have lost her power quite a while ago. In the case of Miko, she gained her powers from the Gods. She fell from the Gods favor by killing Shojo.

Now lets examine Shinjo traveling with Belkar. He is doing it for the greater good, and saving the world and all that. He is unaware he is working with someone evil. SInce he is in the Saphire Gaurd, its safe to assume he gets his powers from the same gods as Miko. HE already lessened Belkars sentance, and offered to remove Belkars MoJ after the battle. So he is going easier on an evil character because he believes he is good, yet he still has his Paladin powers.

It makes more sense that unless he goes to far Like Miko did, then there is no reason for him to lose his power.

Why the hell would Miko have fallen before? We never saw her do anything evil before she killed Shojo (though we saw her do lots of unwise things). Or maybe you think she should have fallen because she was adventuring with Belkar? They were prisonners, she wasnt adventuring with them and they even spent half of the trip chained! Seriously, I doubt Hinjo is gonna join the OOTS, if only because they are higher level then him but intent dont matter at all in D&D and as far as I'm concerned it shoudnt matter in real life either. If Hinjo adventure with Belkar, he lose his paladin power, thats how it is and thats all there is about it. Except maybe if you think Belkar is chaotic neutral?

By the way, who is Shinjo? Hinjo long-lost twin brother who doesnt have a beard and is a blackguard?

[akhamy2]

what if the OOTS (with hinjo) went on a special quest to get some diamonds, and all throughout it roy would advise the party (or elan, but that's someone else's idea). oh yeah and roy would have to be getting frustrated all the time.:smallwink:

[dyslexicfaser]

Two words:

Roy Zombie.

[malakim2099]

The comic would go... poorly.

Just my opinion. Hinjo is fun, and I think he'd be a good addition to the OotS, but I don't think he's a good replacement. He's a bit too quirky, and he actually has too much of a sense of humor to be a straight man for very long. Plus, while Roy is LG, Hinjo is LG with a paladin code to boot.

Roy needs to come back, and I'm pretty sure he will. All the hobgoblins rushed the breach, and none are left behind to loot/animate corpses on the battlefield, so there's no real reason why he can't. Unless of course, there was a TPK. And... that kind of ends the comic right here. Despite the noise certain evil fanboys make, this is the Order of the Stick, not Further Depredations of Xykon and Redcloak. :smallamused:

[Corncracker]

Why the hell would Miko have fallen before? We never saw her do anything evil before she killed Shojo (though we saw her do lots of unwise things). Or maybe you think she should have fallen because she was adventuring with Belkar? They were prisonners, she wasnt adventuring with them and they even spent half of the trip chained! Seriously, I doubt Hinjo is gonna join the OOTS, if only because they are higher level then him but intent dont matter at all in D&D and as far as I'm concerned it shoudnt matter in real life either. If Hinjo adventure with Belkar, he lose his paladin power, thats how it is and thats all there is about it. Except maybe if you think Belkar is chaotic neutral?

By the way, who is Shinjo? Hinjo long-lost twin brother who doesn't have a beard and is a blackguard?
Alright, for some reason I was thinking Miko had done something evil, not sure why though, so that point I concede on.
However look at it from this point of view. Knowing they were evil and bad, Hinjo reduced the sentences of 3 criminals, and worked with them. So, he can side with evil to defend the city, believing them to be evil, and retain his Paladin powers. Hell, he's bribing evil people to help him. However in a quest to defend the world, he can't travel with who he believes is rehabilitated, without losing his powers?

Also, since when has that been a rule? Travel with evil, loose your power.
Knowingly working with evil is something much more specific however. Obviously working with Evil isn't necessarily going to get rid of your powers, as Hinjo has already done that.

And I Shinjo is the Alpha and the Omega of a perfect Consciousness silly. Who else would he be?

[Tolkien_Freak]

Maybe the comic would start to focus a little more on the group. As Haley said,
'...Every quest we've ever done has been all about YOU. "I want to beat Xykon, I want the starmetal, I want to bump uglies with the paladin!"'.
Maybe we'd end up with more V/Haley/Elan/Belkar/Durkon-focused sidequests.

[Krelian]

I'm pretty sure that despite this being a fantastic story and the characters all have great backgrounds, the point of this story is that it is a D&D adventure campaign involving PCs. Hence the the of the prequel book, The Origin of PCs. I'm pretty sure that Miko and Hinjo, for all their depth, are still NPCs and therefore, the suggestion that Hinjo would perhaps join the group would be like a DM running an NPC and as soon as one of the PCs died, he transfers the character sheet to the player with the dead character. Now from the games I've played in, I haven't seen that happen. I've had a DM take a character that I created from one campaign and use it as his NPC in another campaign because we all enjoyed the character, but it has never been the other way around.

So while the story could go on, the adventure pretty much focuses on the one PCs blood oath. It started with Roy deciding to recruit other players to partake in his blood oath. There are two options then as I see it. Roy is raised or resurrected, or his player can reroll a new character. The story would then transfer to one of the other deeper PCs, either Haley's quest to free her father, or Durkon's useless quest from the dwarven priest. Elan, V and Belkar are basically adventurers for adventuring sake. I see V and Belkar as players who like to make their characters as powerful as they can make them. Elan's player likes to goof around and play with the group. So this whole campaign I see from a DM's point of view has focused on the PC Roy. If he stays dead, the campaign has to switch directions completely.

[dyslexicfaser]

Maybe the comic would start to focus a little more on the group. As Haley said,
'...Every quest we've ever done has been all about YOU. "I want to beat Xykon, I want the starmetal, I want to bump uglies with the paladin!"'.
Maybe we'd end up with more V/Haley/Elan/Belkar/Durkon-focused sidequests.
Belkar sidequests? I shudder to imagine it.

[Corncracker]

Belkar sidequests? I shudder to imagine it.

I can't help but think he'd go back and raise the Dirt farmers village.

[jindra34]

I can't help but think he'd go back and raise the Dirt farmers village.
No, NO, NO! he would go back and raise everything that they had gone past and not utterly obliterated.

[TheGrimace]

let me see, I've read this whole thread, and I have several comments to make. I don't recall who said everything, so I'm not using quotes, but I'll try to make myself clear.

First, to the one who talked about an RPG that doesn't require you to raise the protaganist, yes, I have only encountered one, it just so happens to be THE BEST RPG EVER MADE!!!! Hats off to Crono Trigger!

I think that Hayley was developed almost as much, if not more, than roy... and definately more than Elan. How in the world is she too carefree? Do you remember the whole not being able to talk thing?

We also got a pretty huge glimpse into the inner mechanations of Thog's mind, even if they were never plot critical.

Always, absolutely always, in my games, a player will get tired of his character, make a new one, and have his old one killed off in anti-climactic fashion...
The most recent example being just saying that the character dies a horrible death, and letting the other Pc's use their imaginations.

Lastly, I've heard plenty of people say that Hinjo thinks Belkar is becoming good. Think back to when Belkar had owls wisdom cast on him, so he could cast spells. <http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html>
It's not too far of a stretch to say that Belkar is good now!

so shoot me

[Charles Phipps]

It wouldn't.

The Order of the Stick have come a long way under Roy's leadership, but they still lack the ability to function as a whole together, without a leader. Sure, they did decent in the fight against the Linear Guild, but they didn't put up much resistance.

Unless Hinjo loses his city and decides to march them around instead, I don't see this group to hold together for much longer.

That's just stupid. Seriously. It implies that the group isn't nearly the coherent whole that it is. They'd stick together out of the sake of Roy and the world. Frankly, Roy hasn't even provided that much leadership for a long while in the comic. I'm all for Roy but the Order of the Stick is bigger than him now.

[kabbor]

No, NO, NO! he would go back and raise everything that they had gone past and not utterly obliterated.

Belkar could not raise anything: he is not a cleric!

However, he would be pleased to raze anything you might care to mention.[/PEDANT]

Oh, and Belkar will start alignment-shifting sometime. Bound to happen.

I wonder if Serini also started out as CE??? If she die, the paladins would _never_ admit it!

[Charles Phipps]

But yeah, does anyone think Roy will stay dead for a prolonged period though even if they aren't sure that he'll be gone forever?

[Dausuul]

If Hinjo adventure with Belkar, he lose his paladin power, thats how it is and thats all there is about it. Except maybe if you think Belkar is chaotic neutral?

Not true. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm):


While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code.

As long as Hinjo is naive enough to think Belkar is reforming, and Belkar is stuck with the Mark of Justice that keeps him from indulging his evil side (the clerics who could have taken it off are probably dead by now), Hinjo keeps his paladin powers.

Of course, that MoJ has interesting implications if for some reason the Order is unable to raise Roy immediately... they have to tote Roy's dead body around with them or Belkar's MoJ triggers as soon as they get a mile away.

Good thing Haley has all that extradimensional storage space... I think she's still got at least one bag left after the explosion at the inn.

[Zafuel]

Not true. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm):



As long as Hinjo is naive enough to think Belkar is reforming, and Belkar is stuck with the Mark of Justice that keeps him from indulging his evil side (the clerics who could have taken it off are probably dead by now), Hinjo keeps his paladin powers.

Of course, that MoJ has interesting implications if for some reason the Order is unable to raise Roy immediately... they have to tote Roy's dead body around with them or Belkar's MoJ triggers as soon as they get a mile away.

Interesting... and it makes me wonder whether the bit with Hinjo's navievity was put in there to set up Hinjo's replacing Roy. I'm not sure whether the MoJ will trigger off Roy know that he's dead though.

[Dausuul]

On re-reading that bit of the SRD, I also note that "Associates" is listed separately from "Code of Conduct." It's a separate restriction, not part of the code (details on what's in the code are spelled out in the preceding section). While it's stated that paladins won't knowingly associate with evil characters, no consequences for doing so are given.

[Cade Shadow]

Horribbly.

[DocFrance]

I don't think Roy is going to be brought back to life, and for a good reason: what's so special about him? Think of how many other people died (and are going to die) in Azure City. Sure, they're NPCs, but based on the Giant's way of handling things - and on his unique perspective in his guides on this site - I don't think that he's going to let Roy's PC-ness make him more deserving of a rez than any of the other casualties. Why should they spend 5000g worth of crushed diamond on some random non-Azurite mercenary adventurer rather than one of the thousands of faithful fallen Azure City defenders?

[Cade Shadow]

I don't think Roy is going to be brought back to life, and for a good reason: what's so special about him? Think of how many other people died (and are going to die) in Azure City. Sure, they're NPCs, but based on the Giant's way of handling things - and on his unique perspective in his guides on this site - I don't think that he's going to let Roy's PC-ness make him more deserving of a rez than any of the other casualties. Why should they spend 5000g worth of crushed diamond on some random non-Azurite mercenary adventurer rather than one of the thousands of faithful fallen Azure City defenders?

Because he's a Pc and he has higher levels than most other people.For Roy, they are paying at least 500 gp per level, for others they are paying 5000gp per level. That is a big difference. Its probably even less money per level for Roy but I don't have a calculator on me.

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, this thread is meant to examine what your feelings will be if under no circumstances does Roy come back to life for a very significant period of time because he's dead. Whatever reason, he's not raised from the dead after the battle.

[Khoran]

I don't think Roy is going to be brought back to life, and for a good reason: what's so special about him? Think of how many other people died (and are going to die) in Azure City. Sure, they're NPCs, but based on the Giant's way of handling things - and on his unique perspective in his guides on this site - I don't think that he's going to let Roy's PC-ness make him more deserving of a rez than any of the other casualties. Why should they spend 5000g worth of crushed diamond on some random non-Azurite mercenary adventurer rather than one of the thousands of faithful fallen Azure City defenders?

Two words. Player. Character.

Also, the money would probobly be payed by the Order of the Stick, not by Azure City or the Sapphire Guard.

[Shadic]

That's just stupid. Seriously. It implies that the group isn't nearly the coherent whole that it is. They'd stick together out of the sake of Roy and the world. Frankly, Roy hasn't even provided that much leadership for a long while in the comic. I'm all for Roy but the Order of the Stick is bigger than him now.

Are you kidding me? Roy is the only one who has shown himself to actively think about the danger of Xykon and the Snarl, and it's him that brings the forces together.

Try as they might, The Order of the Stick would not last long without a strong authoritative party, something that Roy had, and Haley doesn't.

[Quikngruvn]

I don't think Roy is going to be brought back to life, and for a good reason: what's so special about him?

For one, he's Hinjo's personal bodyguard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html). There's probably some perk for being ruler of Azure City that you get first dibs on who get's Raised. Assuming there's still an Azure City to rule, of course.

Oh, and to answer the original question: it wouldn't. From the point of view of the story, he is the main protagonist. It's his story that's being told. From the point of view of party dynamics, everyone else is either not charismatic enough, not responsible enough, and/or too psychotic to keep the party together. He may stay dead for a while (Celestial Realm hijinks ensue!), but not forever.

[Shadic]

For one, he's Hinjo's personal bodyguard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html). There's probably some perk for being ruler of Azure City that you get first dibs on who get's Raised. Assuming there's still an Azure City to rule, of course.

Oh, and to answer the original question: it wouldn't. From the point of view of the story, he is the main protagonist. It's his story that's being told. From the point of view of party dynamics, everyone else is either not charismatic enough, not responsible enough, and/or too psychotic to keep the party together. He may stay dead for a while (Celestial Realm hijinks ensue!), but not forever.

You sir, are my new best friend. Anybody else that immediately thinks "It wouldn't" when seeing the topic title gains 10,000,000 Awesome Points.

And you bring up a good point. Not EVERYBODY in Azure City is gonna die, and I certainly hope Hinjo is amongst the survivors. Roy was his body guard, and a level what, 13 Fighter? In this world, those don't seem to be that common.

[delguidance]

I'd actually be okay with it if the stories plot switches into an even more interesting arc.

Spoilers regarding psycho and From Dusk till dawn....


Hitchcock killed off his protagonist halfway into Psycho. From Dusk Till Dawn wasn't about vampires until halfway in.

Anyway I'm on board for the long haul.

[Charles Phipps]

Oh, and to answer the original question: it wouldn't. From the point of view of the story, he is the main protagonist.

From the point of view of D&D, there is never a main character if there's more than one PC.

[Quikngruvn]

You sir, are my new best friend. Anybody else that immediately thinks "It wouldn't" when seeing the topic title gains 10,000,000 Awesome Points.

[sniff] I promised myself I wouldn't cry....


From the point of view of D&D, there is never a main character if there's more than one PC.

Were this simply a D&D campaign, then I'd agree. If there were seven people sitting around a table-- a player for each member of OotS plus a DM-- then the players would probably decide to go on, with or without Roy, to continue the game (with Roy's player rolling up a new character, or taking over a level-appropriate NPC, if Roy couldn't be Raised). But this is a story first. It's a story about a campaign, not a campaign about a story-- and it's primarily Roy's story. He'll be back among the living soon enough (even if "soon enough" is a hundred strips down the line, since "dead" does not equal "gone").

[Charles Phipps]

Are you kidding me? Roy is the only one who has shown himself to actively think about the danger of Xykon and the Snarl, and it's him that brings the forces together.

Try as they might, The Order of the Stick would not last long without a strong authoritative party, something that Roy had, and Haley doesn't.

1. Inbetween playing twister? They've actively had a comic (see Nale and his girlfriend) point out that Roy DOESN'T think about it.

2. Yes, yes it really would. Roy isn't the only hero in the OotS. Everyone there is and equal to his heroism.

[jindra34]

2. Yes, yes it really would. Roy isn't the only hero in the OotS. Everyone there is and equal to his heroism.
OOTS would collapse without Roy. True he is not the only hero but he is the glue of the group and without him none of the others would have much reason to stay together for more than lets say a week...

[Wojiz]

The main character of the story, and arguably the most developed and interesting, removed from the scene because he clumsily failed to call for help in time because he was forgetful, leaving a largely bland and undeveloped character to take his place?

Yeah, okay.

[PyritePyro]

I can't help but think he'd go back and raise the Dirt farmers village.

You misspelled raze. Though what all he does choose to raze could be interesting. That said, I don't know that OOTS with no Roy would work.

[Zhrec]

With out Roy team have no true leader. Elan is is too stupid, V too smart, Belkar too cruel, Hinjo too noble, Haley love money too much, Durkon too holly. It means only one, Roy will rise againe.

[Shadic]

1. Inbetween playing twister? They've actively had a comic (see Nale and his girlfriend) point out that Roy DOESN'T think about it.

So, because they had a comic where they were waiting around for a wizard to be resurrected and decided to play Parcheesi, obviously Roy doesn't care about the world.

And besides, the character that brought up the game, and seems most likely to care about the whole Xykon thing is Durkon, as well.



2. Yes, yes it really would. Roy isn't the only hero in the OotS. Everyone there is and equal to his heroism.

Have you read On the Origin of PC's? Not everybody was following Roy around for heroics. Belkar needed to get out of town, Elan had nowhere to go, V wanted EXP, and Haley needed to get money. Durkon was just loyal to Roy. Seems to me that Roy is by far the most heroic out there.

[Charles Phipps]

OOTS would collapse without Roy. True he is not the only hero but he is the glue of the group and without him none of the others would have much reason to stay together for more than lets say a week...

I've repeatedly stated that's not the case. What other reason would they need than the WORLD IS GOING TO END? It's not like Roy contributed much to their quest after Xykon's first death.

They may have been initially assembled by Roy but they've changed and become friends that will stick together (well, maybe not V)

[jindra34]

I've repeatedly stated that's not the case. What other reason would they need than the WORLD IS GOING TO END? It's not like Roy contributed much to their quest after Xykon's first death.

They may have been initially assembled by Roy but they've changed and become friends that will stick together (well, maybe not V)

See Order of the Scribble...

[Nedlum]

See Order of the Scribble...

Invalid. The reason that the Order of the Scribble fell apart was because they *won*. It wasn't the death of Kraagor which drove them apart; it was the need to save the world which held them together, *despite* all the inter-party tensions: "Anger and resentment that had simmered through years of adventuring were suddenly unleashed."

If the Order of the Scribble is used for comparison, we can see the Order of the Stick *staying together*, with or without Roy, until Xykon is defeated and the Scribble is either resealed or destroyed Once And For All.

[Spiky]

I've repeatedly stated that's not the case. What other reason would they need than the WORLD IS GOING TO END? It's not like Roy contributed much to their quest after Xykon's first death.

They may have been initially assembled by Roy but they've changed and become friends that will stick together (well, maybe not V)

Yes, you have. And you are dead wrong. Click on a comic, what do you see at the top? It looks like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/Images/redesign/Icon_Comics_OOTS.gif

Roy IS the Order. Period. No amount of [insert forum-acceptable adjective] posts from you can change that. His picture is part of the design of the entire website, the only character thus encoded. He can't be removed without destroying all. He is the ONE character that cannot go away and have the comic continue.

You have an idea in your head, fine. It is wrong. Get over it. Just because you dislike Roy doesn't mean your theories make any sense.

And dude, if you don't understand what is happening when Roy speaks or whatever, just ask. There is a thread dedicated to Jokes You Didn't Get, that would be a starting point. It's helped me out several times.

To answer the original pointless question:
If Roy doesn't come back, neither do I. The comic is dead, there is no point to reading it if it were to continue.

[Charles Phipps]

Geez, don't take it personally.

I like Roy fine. He's not my favorite character, true, but it doesn't mean I wished him bodily harm. Plus, I also think that the whole idea that he's the only real hero in the Order of the Stick who wants to stop Xykon is silly.

I just like the idea he's gone because it changes the paradigm of the comic.

I also think that's the way it's going. He's gone and he's not coming back.

[Jaysyn]

I also think that Hinjo might be amusing to say...

"Belkar, you do realize you haven't killed anyone evil in over a year right?"

"Yeah so?"

"ALIGNMENT CHANGE TO CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!"

"NOOOOOOOO!"

You mean "good or neutral" instead of "evil", right?

[Manga Shoggoth]

I don't know if I've yet encounter the story that kills the protagonist and doesn't revive them. Okay there was one RPG that didn't make you, but you could. Even if it takes awhile Roy will come back.

One story comes to mind: The Tragedy of "Julius Caesar" by one Bill Shakespeare. The main character is killed early on in the story - Act III, Scene I as I recall.

Gods! English Literature classes have scarred me for life!

[Corncracker]

Yes, you have. And you are dead wrong. Click on a comic, what do you see at the top? It looks like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/Images/redesign/Icon_Comics_OOTS.gif

Roy IS the Order. Period. No amount of [insert forum-acceptable adjective] posts from you can change that. His picture is part of the design of the entire website, the only character thus encoded. He can't be removed without destroying all. He is the ONE character that cannot go away and have the comic continue.

You have an idea in your head, fine. It is wrong. Get over it. Just because you dislike Roy doesn't mean your theories make any sense.

And dude, if you don't understand what is happening when Roy speaks or whatever, just ask. There is a thread dedicated to Jokes You Didn't Get, that would be a starting point. It's helped me out several times.

To answer the original pointless question:
If Roy doesn't come back, neither do I. The comic is dead, there is no point to reading it if it were to continue.

At this point, Roy is hardly needed to keep the Order going. The fact his face is encoded on the site is hardly a good reason. Look at FF VI, Kain is the Logo. He still isn't the main Character.

I could see the Order fighting Xycon even without Roy. At least Durkon would, and Elan would probably continue in order to help, him being a good guy and all. Haley would most likely help since Elan is. And Belkar would help cause he likes to kill things and enjoys challanges.

Mind you, I still say Roy is coming back.

[Spiky]

Fine, whatever. Have your little fantasies.

Would it really be so bad to have some ability to think critically? Shakespeare scars you? My god.

I fear for the future.

[Charles Phipps]

Fine, whatever. Have your little fantasies.

Would it really be so bad to have some ability to think critically? Shakespeare scars you? My god.

I fear for the future.

Gandalf died in the Fellowship of the Ring and he was the primary plot mover/party leader. What surprises me here isn't that people don't like the idea of Roy dying but no one seems to be even entertaining the idea that he's not coming back.

People took Shojo's death seriously after all.

[Hallavast]

One story comes to mind: The Tragedy of "Julius Caesar" by one Bill Shakespeare. The main character is killed early on in the story - Act III, Scene I as I recall.

Gods! English Literature classes have scarred me for life!

One could argue that Brutus is actually the main protagonist in The Tragedy of Julius Caesar. He is the one who has all the inner conflict about killing his friend and so forth, he is the one who must overcome (or fall before) the conflicts throughout the story.

[Dragon_Paladin]

This post is the same i write in my "another roy´s death post":

"I´m so sad for the death of Roy, he was my favourite character, I hope the Giant will recover Roy. All of the character of OOTS are important: a greedy rogue with a good heart (Haley), a powerfull and talkative wizard (V), a compassionate and stubborn cleric (Durkon), a charismatic bard with.. well.. and special intellect (Elan) and... err.. i think all of us think that Belkar rocks :)

But, all group need a good fighter and a leader, Roy hold the group together and his relation with Elan and in a minor way with Belkar give us a great number of comic moments. I don´t think that Hinjo can fill the void that Roy left, he is good for an NPC, but he hasn´t the charisma nor the background. Also I want to see the progress of the relationship between Roy and Celia (She will be so sad )

P.D. I am sorry if my english isn´t good."

[blademaster42]

Heck given we don't know how Giant depicts -HP to my knowledge.

Actually, we do. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html We see, that they are unconscious and not have x-eyes.


I imagine the Sapphire Guards' oath would change to protecting the remaining gates, which is where the Order'll be heading next-ish.
No, Soon and the others of the order of the scribble swore never to interfere with each other. Not even if their's was womped. I think they'll rebuild the city, seeing as how Xykon is going to leave, since he said he has no interest in it.


Imagine how much fun he's going to have spending his eternity with his dad after having failed his blood oath.

- This never would have happened if you'd gone to wizard school.
- Come on, dad, fighter is a perfectly valid adventuring carreer choice. Besides, I did all I could to avenge your death, which is probably more than you deserved, now that I think about it.
- I mean, you've got your father's Intelligence score. You would have made a pretty good wizard, but Noo! Mister Independant had to swing a big stick. If you'd taken even one level of wizard, you could have cast Feather Fall back then and still be alright. Besides, you're a human. You wouldn't even have had an XP penalty.
- Uh, dad? Now that I'm a ghost, I can only get hurt by force effects or other incorporeal creatures, right?
- That and ghost touch weapons. That's one of the first thing they teach you in wizard school. A single rank of Knowledge (arcana) will tell you this.
- Good. That's all I wanted to know. *Punch in the face* Wow, that felt good. I'd been waiting 400 strips for this moment.
.
That, I like.

and to answer the original query. No. Roy is the main character, there are far too many problems with anyone else leading them, not the least of which needing someone to keep Belkar on a leash, so to speak. (actuallly, I believe there is a thread of that nature. *shudder*)

[Tolkien_Freak]

It seems a lot of people have committed fallacies in their attempts to say that Roy will come back.


That's just stupid.
Not an argument, a dismissal of the opposing argument as absurd.


Click on a comic, what do you see at the top? It looks like this:
http://www.giantitp.com/Images/redesign/Icon_Comics_OOTS.gif
Roy IS the Order.
Just because his picture is at the top of the page doesn't mean he has to stay alive. He's just the GUY AT TOP OF PAGE now, no problem with that.


Fine, whatever. Have your little fantasies.

Would it really be so bad to have some ability to think critically? Shakespeare scars you? My god.

I fear for the future.
Show me an argument in this.

Personally, I think I would like it if he stayed dead, so we could get some development of other people (every single quest and sidequest has been about Roy so far). Though, I think it's better if we just wait until the Giant feels ready to say if Roy lives or stays dead, rather than arguing reasons why he should or should not stay dead. It's not our comic, it's the Giant's, and we shouldn't be telling him what to do. And anyway, all of this is off topic, because we're supposed to say what we think would happen IF HE STAYED DEAD. not arguing about if he stays dead or not.

[Dragon_Paladin]

well... in my humble opinion none of us is telling the Giant what to do with his comic... we only are talking about our opinions and feelings about Roy´s death... i am a newcomer but i think that a forum of the order of the stick is actually to talk about the comic... correct me if i am mistaked.

On the other hand i agree that great part of the quests were about Roy (but Elan also has one main plot), i don´t agree that kill Roy is the only way to give the other characters more protagonism.

[teratorn]

My problem with this thread lies in there not being a plausible reason for them not to bring Roy back. Unless Durkon dies or something like that, he will always want him back. He will not adventure with the rest of the gang if bringing Roy back is not their major goal. Even if Haley would let greed get in the way Elan would not allow it. He would want his "big brother" back. Panel 11 in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) is terribly sad and says it all.

About the topic, they may hold as a team without Roy for sometime, but it will be hard. V has a huge ego but she'll go along with Haley, samething for Elan. Durkon is Roy's friend and he will want to finish Roy's work, so he'll stay with the others if they decide to go on a quest to bring Roy back or to finish Roy's work.

Belkar could stay with the group if Hinjo joins (Belkar is Hinjo's prisoner). That way a battle between V and Belkar (with one of them dying) could be avoided. Unless AC falls, Belkar can only stay with the group if someone from Azure is there to guard the prisoner.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Lets assume, for the sake of an argument, that Azure City holds.
Hinjo, as the leader of the city, CANNOT adventure with the rest of the party, he would NEED to stay behind to help rebuild the city, from the walls, to rallying the people to his side (theres a reason Paladins have a high CHA, you know), to rejuvinating the Sapphire Guard.
Speaking of bringing back the Guard, I do seem to recall that there is a certain Ex-Paladin in need of an Atonement spell.
And SOMEBODY needs to work off his one year sentance still.
Assuming it is not immediatly possible to ressurect Roy for whatever reason, it would seem a logical step would be for Miko's atonement quest, and part of Belkar's imprisonment to be questing to remove whatever barrier is keeping them from ressurecting Roy.

Assuming Azure City falls, then The Order needs to get out of Dodge.
Theres a large hobgoblin force occupying the City, too large for them to adventure through it like any other dungeon.
Assuming they're able to cart Roy's body off with them, Hinjo would probably still play a role in leading the recapture of the City.

~Roy won't stay dead. The Order will WORK to revive him.

Personally, I'm a little upset we have yet to see a comic where Eugene Greenhilt Berates Roy, already.
Hes still dead, hes still in the Land of the Lawful Good Dead Guys.
That situation could still play out.

<A mild tangent has been cut from this rant>