So how *do* you kill a D&D lich? (if you're not epic-level yourself)

[Freelance Henchman]

The general consensus from the forums, from what I've read at least, seems to be that Xykon is so overpowering that he can't really be killed by any number of lower-level foes. So what "realistic" (in the context of a D&D world) ways are there to do old boneface in without the help of some epic-level NPCs?

I thought the AC Paladin brigade had a good chance to do it, but they got insanified before they really got going.

[Yuki Akuma]

A level-appropriate four-man part made up of a cleric, a druid, a wizard and a rogue, making sure one of the three spellcasters has a divination spell to find the lich's soul-hidey place so they can destroy it before he regenerates.

Lichs aren't really that overpowering if you know how to handle them!

[Closet_Skeleton]

How do you beat Xykon? Simple. Be Batman.

Step 1.

Find Redcloak and destroy the phylactery. Honestly Xykon is being rather naive in the placement of that object. Unless he has a contract with Redcloak that means Xykon has to make Redcloak his phylactery keeper.

Step 2.

Xykon is a sorcerer so his spells are limited. Find out what those spells are.

Step 3.

V is a wizard and therefore can learn new spells. Have V learn all the spells that Xykon has no defence against.

Step 4.

Buy some anti-undead weaponry. Disruption weaponry since Xykon's fort save is at most +8 each hit will have a 30-40% chance to kill him instantly.

Step 5.

Have Haley sneak into his camp and steal his magic items.

Step 6.

Choose your battleground. Have Durkon concecrate it. Somewhere inside where flight can't be used. If Xykon can teleport then you'll have gotten a dimensional anchor spell as part of step 3.

Step 7.

Lure Xykon into said battleground. The best way to do this would be to make the battleground the gate which Xykon has to go near.

Step 8.

Fight him and hope for the best.

[Rincewind]

The general consensus from the forums, from what I've read at least, seems to be that Xykon is so overpowering that he can't really be killed by any number of lower-level foes. So what "realistic" (in the context of a D&D world) ways are there to do old boneface in without the help of some epic-level NPCs?

I thought the AC Paladin brigade had a good chance to do it, but they got insanified before they really got going.

Clerics are the key, and wizards... And some summoned monsters as allies...

[Freelance Henchman]

Xykon is a sorcerer so his spells are limited. Find out what those spells are.

I can remember Fly, Finger of Death and Meteor Strike (?).

[Closet_Skeleton]

I can remember Fly, Finger of Death and Meteor Strike (?).

Also Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Insanity, Shatter, Magic Missile, Ghost Form, Xykon's Escaperble Forcecage, Scry, animate dead and possibly ghoul touch or vampiric touch (you don't get to see what spell he kills the guard in the watchtower with)

[Freelance Henchman]

Also Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Insanity, Shatter, Magic Missile, Ghost Form, Xykon's Escaperble Forcecage, Scry, animate dead and possibly ghoul touch or vampiric touch (you don't get to see what spell he kills the guard in the watchtower with)

So to counter his spells you would need at least:
- Shield vs. Magic Missile
- Negative Plane Protection vs. Vampiric Touch
- Protection against Death Magic vs. Finger of Death

[lord_khaine]

or you could just use the huge advantage it is to outnumber your foe, and have 1 party member ready an action to disrupt spellcasting, while the rest of the party grind him to dust.

really, the only real problem with fighting liches is that unless you can find their phychilary-thingy (you know what i mean), they will come back a few weeks later for round 2.

[Closet_Skeleton]

or you could just use the huge advantage it is to outnumber your foe, and have 1 party member ready an action to disrupt spellcasting, while the rest of the party grind him to dust.

really, the only real problem with fighting liches is that unless you can find their phychilary-thingy (you know what i mean), they will come back a few weeks later for round 2.

The problem with fighting liches is;

Hugely powerful paralyzing touch ability

An aura of fear

Turn resistance

Undead immunities as well as mind-affecting, electrical and cold immunity

DR 15/bludgeoning

Effective long term immortality

+ the grand benifit

All the advantages of being a high level spellcaster

Readied actions are too easy to counter and concentration checks aren't hard.

[SPoD]

Fighting a lich isn't that much of a problem. Fighting a sorcerer 7-8 levels above you? That's a problem. Xykon just happens to be both. If Xykon were a 13th level sorcerer lich, I think OOTS would mop the floor with him, but he's probably around 20th level.

[SamDerringer]

The "Batman" theory is the best by far, and with a small adiction. Bind the lich to the ground, and put a buffed up fighter with a holy, undead bane disruption weapon (a heavy flail, maul or greatclub), to break a few bones.

[Ichneumon]

A level-appropriate four-man part made up of a cleric, a druid, a wizard and a rogue, making sure one of the three spellcasters has a divination spell to find the lich's soul-hidey place so they can destroy it before he regenerates.

Lichs aren't really that overpowering if you know how to handle them!

You quite said it. Killing a lich isn't difficult, if you have an appropriated party.

[Kreistor]

Liches don't really have that many hit points. Other undead have CR's about 1/2 their HD, but Liches are 1:1 (plus a bit) due to their Class Level construction. They've got more HP than most arcane casters of the same level, but they don't have a huge amount more.

That makes them slightly soft. If you can learn hwo their DR works, then all it really takes is:

1) Meleer with the right weapon.
2) Freedom of Movement (overcomes the Paralyzation Touch attack)
3) Death Ward (gotta assume the Lich has some Energy Drain or Death Effects)
4) Movement to catch up (Fly)
5) Healing (to overcome damage)

Just hitting the Lich will destroy the body, if all you're trying to do is stop him temporarily. The really hard part is finding and destroying the phylactery that will regenerate him later.

[lord_khaine]

The problem with fighting liches is;

Hugely powerful paralyzing touch ability

An aura of fear

Turn resistance

Undead immunities as well as mind-affecting, electrical and cold immunity

DR 15/bludgeoning

Effective long term immortality

+ the grand benifit

All the advantages of being a high level spellcaster

Readied actions are too easy to counter and concentration checks aren't hard

well first off if the lich is close enough to use the touch attack, its to close to whatever melee opponents there might be, and it should normaly have better spells to spend a standart action than trying to make a touch attack, that still allows a fortitude save.

the fear is pretty irrelevant since just having 5 HD makes you immune.

undead immunities isnt to bad, but most of those things they protect you against like poison and ability damage isnt something that standart adventures use anyway, as for immunity to sneak attack, a simple grave strike wand will allow a eventual rogue to ignore that immunity, and as i recall its a lv 1 spell.
mind affecting spells isnt something you usualy use on a spellcaster anyway, and though the immunity is nice, its not something that will make a huge difference in a eventual battle.
as for the immunity to electricity and cold, there are both lots of spells that doesnt use these energy types, and there are even feats that allow you to ignore the immunity.

turn resistance is also good, until you remember that it still makes you a target for a turn undead, and opens up for the posibility that a cleric with greater turn undead turns you to dust with a lucky roll.

Dr blunt&magic 15 is good, its actualy one of the greatest benefits of being a lich, but the problem is just, that its really easy to breach, all it takes is a +1 backup weapon, and you start to take 15 more points of damage again like everyone else.

a lich isnt really immortal, it just cant die of old age, that does not prevent you from dying of excessive blunt trauma.

being a highlv spellcaster is good, but that comes from your class, not the lich template in itself, and it is possibel to become a lich as early as lv 11.

lastly ill disagree about the readied action thing, just caching a simple fireball would give a concentration dc of around 45, more than enough to ruin most attempts.

[Netherwood]

Well, it seems throwing a lich into a Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) works pretty well. It isn't feasible in this battle, as the Gate is so small... but next time? You've got a huge swirling mass of energy, just shove him in and actually be sure to find/destroy the phylactery.

I don't think any of our heroes have talked about the phylactery, have they? I'm a little surprised. I had thought that Vaarsuvius, at least, would know such important arcane knowledge.

[monsterinshadow]

im pretty sure that a wish spell would do it, as would getting your god to intervene on your behalf (wink wink), as would a maximized true ressurection spell. the last should cause enough damage to "kill" a lich.

[Gavin Sage]

Antimagic Field. Decent fighter with either a high-damage/bludgeoning weapon.

Then track down the phylactery.

[teratorn]

Well, it seems throwing a lich into a Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) works pretty well.
That gate was protected by a sigil, that's why Xykon needed Elan.


I don't think any of our heroes have talked about the phylactery, have they? I'm a little surprised.

Eugene told them about the thingamajabber (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html). Yes it's strange that they went to battle a lich without investigating the subject.

[Miles Invictus]

I imagine that phylacteries are a closely-guarded secret. Liches want to keep it a secret because it makes them near-impossible to kill. Everyone else wants to keep it a secret because it's such an essential part of the lich process -- if no one knows about phylacteries, no one can become a lich.

[TheNovak]

But surely Elan's Bardic Knowledge could have...

Oh, right. Elan.

[Netherwood]

Ah yes, Eugene told them about the thingamajabber... I'd forgotten. Thanks, teratorn.

So why haven't they followed up with major research?

[holywhippet]

Antimagic Field. Decent fighter with either a high-damage/bludgeoning weapon.

Then track down the phylactery.

That's pretty much how I handled demi-liches in Baldur's Gate 2. A scroll of protection against magic and there's nothing the demi-lich can do other than try and headbutt you.

A team of barbarian berserkers with weapons of disruption and a few boosting spells would work well if they were at least level 10 or so. Barbarians have plenty of hp so they could stay alive for a while and inflict a fair amount of damage.

[Drakron]

Ah yes, Eugene told them about the thingamajabber... I'd forgotten. Thanks, teratorn.

So why haven't they followed up with major research?


Well because its not something one can research since each phylacteries is pretty much individual (it can be almost anything) and its still going to be hidden in a safe location.

It also something that is really up to the DM, some spells makes it easy to find out what it is and were its located (at the time).

[Dausuul]

Ah yes, Eugene told them about the thingamajabber... I'd forgotten. Thanks, teratorn.

So why haven't they followed up with major research?

Probably because they haven't had time. I imagine they were going to do some after the business with the sage, but then Nale kidnapped Julia, and right after they got back from dealing with that, Miko showed up with the news that Xykon was a day's march away with thirty thousand hobgoblins at his back.

[EyethatBinds]

As has been said, the anti-magic field is the best method for taking down any spellcaster and Xykon is no exception. The next step is a decent monk to grapple him and crush him to death with his bare hands. The monk would only have to be 13th level to stand more than a good chance of keeping the lich down and the anti-magic field is perfect for keeping all those obnoxious spells at bay.
Finding the phalactry is a little tougher since Xykon has had decades to hide it and clearly has the ability to convince anyone evil to follow his commands [except Miko]. But Redcloak would be another rather blatant target for extermination given his current display of power and his place as Xykon's second in command of team evil. Killing Redcloak could prove tough, but the same tactic could be applied that was used on his master. Once the pair is defeated the phalactry wouldn't take too long to find and even if it did Xykon would most likely be surrounded by the enemies who took him down already and be exterminated for good in short order.
But since the Stick doesn't seem to have a monk, or even a decent fighter this plan won't exactly work for them. Durkon could attempt it himself with V, providing the anti-magic field but this tactic is much more risky since no magic could be involved in the battle. But since when did good tactics and the Order of the Stick become even remotely close to each other?

[Ubiq]

Ah yes, Eugene told them about the thingamajabber... I'd forgotten. Thanks, teratorn.

So why haven't they followed up with major research?

How much do they really know about the subject in general though?

I doubt Roy has talked to his father since they parted on bad terms and Eugene didn't really give him that much to go on. As far as Roy knows, Xykon may or may not be able to resurrect himself again using the same method. If he is, they have no way of knowing where the object is and where he'll come back from next time. The best option they had in the timeframe allowed was to destroy Xykon, which would put him out of commission for at least a while and may require him to regenerate somewhere far from the battle field.

There's no real reason to suspect that Redcloak's amulet is a phylactery, especially seeing as how they didn't even know what one was prior to Eugene bringing it up; even now, they just have a vague idea of how the concept works. Even if they did suspect Redcloak, it's hardly an easy task to defeat a high level cleric who is usually hanging out with an extremely powerful (though admittedly stupid) monster and is currently in the middle of a massive army.

As far as killing him goes, the best way would be to swarm him with an entire high level party at once. Individual attackers won't fare that well by comparison. At their current levels, I think about the only member that might pose a serious threat to Xykon alone would be Durkon because of Thor's Might, but Xykon would probably just stay away long enough for the spell to end. V would be next in line, but I doubt Xykon would have that much trouble there seeing as how he offed Dorukan and Fryon both. Xykon seems to have a knack for killing high level wizards and V would probably not have any better luck against him, especially seeing as how both of V's battles with other spellcasters to date have been stalemates decided by outside forces.

[Cybren]

Become the lord of hell and fry him without much effort before having someone accidentally reunite you with your body, depriving you of your limitless arcane power?

[Dark Dork]

:smallconfused: Wouldn't an anti-magic field suppress the magical items of the melee fighter meaning they wouldn't be able to overcome the lich's DR 15/Blugeoning and Magic. Also, disruption wouldn't work for the same reason.

[Green Bean]

:smallconfused: Wouldn't an anti-magic field suppress the magical items of the melee fighter meaning they wouldn't be able to overcome the lich's DR 15/Blugeoning and Magic. Also, disruption wouldn't work for the same reason.

Nope. A lich's DR is a Supernatural (su) ability, and therefore goes away in an antimagic field.

[PaladinFreak]

A +5 Full Plate (SR 27) and the Greenhilt Sword would be a pretty effective combo (as long as Roy had support from Durkon and V).

I think a couple of Greater Spell Immunities would not go astray though, as long as you keyed them to things like Finger of Death and Meteor Swarm.

[Green Bean]

A +5 Full Plate (SR 27) and the Greenhilt Sword would be a pretty effective combo (as long as Roy had support from Durkon and V).

I think a couple of Greater Spell Immunities would not go astray though, as long as you keyed them to things like Finger of Death and Meteor Swarm.

Seeing as that Full Plate would cost a minimum of 175000 gold, I think it's a bit out of Roy's league.

[pjackson]

If I were Xykon and I were hiding my phylactery as a goblin's holy symbol, I would:
Enchant the phylactery as an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, both blocking divinations and giving a reason why someone who killed the carrier would want to keep it rather than destroy it.
Attach a holy symbol for Redcloak's god to the front.
Put a piece of paper with a symbol of insanity in between the two pieces.

[nagora]

You quite said it. Killing a lich isn't difficult, if you have an appropriated party.

Oh, great. Now I have to steal a high-level party! People tend to be careful where they leave them too.

[happyturtle]

Ah yes, Eugene told them about the thingamajabber... I'd forgotten. Thanks, teratorn.

So why haven't they followed up with major research?

The real question is why didn't Eugene tell Roy about it when he handed down the blood oath? Given how proud Eugene is of his own intellect, that was a pretty stupid omission.

[Closet_Skeleton]

A +5 Full Plate (SR 27) and the Greenhilt Sword would be a pretty effective combo (as long as Roy had support from Durkon and V).

I think a couple of Greater Spell Immunities would not go astray though, as long as you keyed them to things like Finger of Death and Meteor Swarm.

Spell resistance 27? Useless against a level 20 character.

Specific spell immunities would be useful however as an example of the planning process I mentioned in the first or second reply to this thread.

[Jaradcel]

If I were Xykon and I were hiding my phylactery as a goblin's holy symbol, I would:
Enchant the phylactery as an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, both blocking divinations and giving a reason why someone who killed the carrier would want to keep it rather than destroy it.
Attach a holy symbol for Redcloak's god to the front.
Put a piece of paper with a symbol of insanity in between the two pieces.


The last line is sheer Xykon all the way. Is that alllowed though?

[Green Bean]

The last line is sheer Xykon all the way. Is that alllowed though?

Yep. Heck, that's pretty much why they created the Symbol spells in the first place; to protect spellbooks or other valuables.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

You kill him the same way you kill any high level arcane caster. All that he gets is some DR that is easily overcomable if you are high enough level. As an arcane caster he won't have very good fort or reflex saves, so just throw a few his way. Load up on some spell resistance or immunities and bash him to death (re-death?) then find a few divination spells to find his soul-hidey-place. In the event of shielding against divination, you may have to find ways around it. A good place to start would be to find some of his close assosiates question them. Remember you can kill them and use speak with dead so "shoot first ask questions later" is a viable doctrine. Then again, there is always the DM's side quest to find the soul-hidey-place, but if you take more than a few days, be prepared to kill the lich all over again.

[TETanglebrooke]

personally one of my favorite tactics that a player has actually thought of too in one of my games is to buff as much as you need then have a cleric walk up and cast the spell heal once or twice. heals 10 hp/level touch attack will or no save. level fifteen against undead you are dealing 150 damage on a touch. depending on the rolls for hp on the part of the lich and whether or not they make the save this could easily wipe the floor with any lich. then you just have to get the phylactery

[Green Bean]

personally one of my favorite tactics that a player has actually thought of too in one of my games is to buff as much as you need then have a cleric walk up and cast the spell heal once or twice. heals 10 hp/level touch attack will or no save. level fifteen against undead you are dealing 150 damage on a touch. depending on the rolls for hp on the part of the lich and whether or not they make the save this could easily wipe the floor with any lich. then you just have to get the phylactery

Umm, you realize that undead get a save if heal is used on them, right? And a will save is a caster's strongest one?

[GoC]

You kill him the same way you kill any high level arcane caster.

I dare you to figure out how do defeat a 20th level wizard built by the WotC CO board people!:smallwink:

[Arbitrarity]

Use a higher level wizard.

21'st level = carnage.

[Green Bean]

Use a higher level wizard.

21'st level = carnage.

Very true. If I recall correctly, using epic spellcasting as written, you could animate the entire planet. All you need is a year of downtime.

[Adeptus]

When Roy was falling he wondered why he even had the potions had. Slow poison, shillelagh oil...

The Giant is being clever again. I wonder how many people noticed that with the shillelagh oil Roy's improviced great club would have been a really good weapon agains Xykon. :smallsmile:

Many people here seem to be suggesting disruption, but at least according to the d20 hypertext site's writeup it doesn't work if the target is higher level than the caster... so the order's original plan wouldn't have worked anyway.

[TETanglebrooke]

Umm, you realize that undead get a save if heal is used on them, right? And a will save is a caster's strongest one?

yea i have that in there. "will or no save" see it is there. right after the 10/level. so it is a will negates. boo hoo just cast it once or twice. if you are any decent then you would have used the proper buffs (also in my post) to boost the save alot. it is a good strategy that would end the fight in 1-4 rounds based on luck.

[lord_khaine]

actualy its will half, so even on a save its still 5 points per caster lv, or 75 points of damage from a lv 15 cleric.
that alone is allmost enough to kill a lv 15 lich, who have made a few bad rolls.

[Finwe]

Spell resistance 27? Useless against a level 20 character.

Yes, because negating between a quarter and a third of all spells he sends at you would be completely useless.

[Ridureyu]

Think of it this way.

It's been said that a properly-played Dragon will NEVER lose to a party up to five levels past its CR.

A properly-played Lich will never lose to a party. Aside from the fact that a smart lich would make his phylactery something small and durable, and then toss it into the ocean, he would also rig his lair to be unstoppable. Bouncy balls of insanity, instant-death traps with insanely high DC levels, and Lichly artifacts that negate any limitations that his spells all have.

Barring that, he can fake his own death, and just coup de grace them all when they sleep.

[jindra34]

Drop thirty cats on it...

[roadkiller]

Let's see, you can do it with two people and four items.

One person must have high saves; a paladin would do well. The second doesn't matter if you know and can reach where the phylactery is located. If not, a wizard or cleric with divination spells would work. Someone with a means of moving an object from a distance is preferrable here, as death might be caused otherwise.

The items? Two bags of holding and two portable holes. One of each to each person.

Have the high save character run up to the lich and toss the bag into the hole. BAM! No more lich. Of course, there is the unfortate side effect of no more Mr. High-Saves.

The second person then places the bag into the hole near the phylactery. Preferrably from a distance. BAM! No more phylactery.

The actual mechanics may vary from DM to DM. Some will only require one person to do so, and the effect will be the same, even from a distance. Some may actually deny you the ability to execute this plan.

This plan follows one of my personal rules of DnD: Sufficient tactical applications of fire, bags of holding or use of the Diplomacy skill can solve any problem.

[Commander Hayes]

If one can convince a lich to kill himself, that solves the problem right away.

[EagleWiz]

Lich HP is d12x level. If Xykon is 20th level avrage HP for him is 130.

Metor Swarm right back at him. 36d6 damage.

[ThorFluff]

I know that it would probably be a bit to high lvl for the current Oots party, but wouln't mordekainens Disjunktion, threwn at Redcloak kinda destroy the Phylactery?

[Gavin Sage]

I know that it would probably be a bit to high lvl for the current Oots party, but wouln't mordekainens Disjunktion, threwn at Redcloak kinda destroy the Phylactery?

Yes but the only caster of level sufficient active in the story at present is Xykon himself. At a basic level it could work but that involves finding the phylactery in the first place. And if you are casting 9th level spells its not quite non-epic anymore.

I still submit Antimagic Field with a decent fighter to take the Lich down.

[Daisemiin]

Ive only fought a lich once in my D&D career, and was playing a paladin/priestess with 50% magic resistance. The only spell that beat my MR I had paladin immunity to. The rest was just hacking away and keeping him cornered.

I have a great respect for Rich's core knowledge and deviousness though, and am looking forward to learning from the Master.

Question. If you have a water elemental and Bless it, does it become Holy Water Elemental?

[Estrosiath]

If the lich gets the jump on the party, say by casting a finger of death at the wizard... Then chances are, the party will go down. Otherwise it's a toss up - once the weaknesses of a lich are learned (knowledge religion check), it's not THAT difficult to kill one. The problem the Oots has is that they are much too low level for Xykon. They are what, 13? Xykon's level is probably 20, that makes him CR 22, waay out of their league, and by a long shot. Unless of course you use dramatic and poetic license to kill him... After all, the comic is the order of the stick, not Xykon and Redcloak.

But to kill a lich (assuming it's alone; if it has minions, and it should, then it becomes a hell of a lot harder), with a party of the appropriate level:
Let the cleric-buffed fighter charge it with a magic, bludgeoning weapon, while the casters hit it with Reflex and Fortitude save spells (disintegration would work pretty well). End of story. At 130 hp average, it's not going to last very long. I'm looking at the 3.5 SRD, and it doesn't look like they even have SR... So they aren't THAT tough. If it boils down to a group of 4 level 17 characters (LA+5 should usually be the maximum CR of monsters encountered by a party) against a lone Xykon, they'd probably make short work of him. If you start factoring other things in, like, say, allies for the lich as well, then the outcome becomes a lot less certain.

[Green Bean]

Disintegrate is the best way to kill a lich. They have to make a Fort save (Dis. affects objects too), or instantly be destroyed, and the lack of con score plus spellcasting levels means a really weak save.

[vbushido]

Needed: Sorcerer or wizard, cleric, druid (multiples are even better)

Prep scrolls of Summon Monster VII or higher, Greater Magic Fang & oils of bless weapon.

Cast Silence on the area (but not on the lich). Make sure spellcasters are outside of silence

Have party fighters engage at this point to prevent him from moving out of silence.

Toss Oils of bless weapon on opposite wall. (create walls, if necessary)

Have wizard, cleric and/or druid each summon a Huge Earth elemental (greater, for druid) Slam attack +19, 2d10+9 with Awesome Blow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow), Improved Bull Rush & Power Attack (+23, 2d10+10 for greater). Cast Greater Magic Fang on elementals.

Let elementals play handball with lich while threating to do the same to lich's flunky unless he/she/it turns over the phylactery. Be ready to carry out threat if necessary.

For additional flair, the casters can all create water in the area under the lich and have the cleric bless it. (requires precasting Move Earth underneath first and a Rod of Metamegic Silent Spell or the feat for the cleric)

Once phylactery is in party's possession, let elementals (re-summoned lesser ones will do) sunder it.

-----
The past isn't dead. It isn't even past.

[Mordag]

Temporary solution : Heal. 5th or 6th level spell. Durkon is a dorf (Meh :P) cleric so probably has enough HPs to get close enough to cast it. Considering the lich is an undead sorceror, it probably doesn't have a high constitution score. Then you apply the batman plan. Short-term solution then a good plan to screw Xykon for good. Has anyone thought about it?

[Kreistor]

Temporary solution : Heal. 5th or 6th level spell. Durkon is a dorf (Meh :P) cleric so probably has enough HPs to get close enough to cast it. Considering the lich is an undead sorceror, it probably doesn't have a high constitution score. Then you apply the batman plan. Short-term solution then a good plan to screw Xykon for good. Has anyone thought about it?

Undead have no Constitution. The Lich template replaces the standard 1D4/level with 1D12/level. X is at least L18, so average 117 or more HP. Durkon is L13 (or that's the best estimate we have, since he hasn't revealed his high level spells or durations like V), which could do 130HP. There's a Will save attached to that Heal spell, and the Sorcerer's high Will save doesn't change with the template, so X still is very likely to resist it (and D has to get through Spell Resistance). But, yeah, D could theoretically one-shot destroy X, but he pretty much needs to get lucky.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Question. If you have a water elemental and Bless it, does it become Holy Water Elemental?

Bless water only effects 1 pint of water. Also the elemental as a sentient creature would get a will save to resist being blessed.

So if you got a tiny 1 pint water elemental who failed his will save, possibly.

Since holy water is actually imbued with positive energy you'd might get a steam quasi-elemental (quasi-elementals are elementals with positive or negative energy mixed in. For some reason steam is positive water rather than fire and water but since negative and air is a vacuum quasi-elemental the whole thing is gone to heck anyway)

[Delgarde]

Disintegrate is the best way to kill a lich. They have to make a Fort save (Dis. affects objects too), or instantly be destroyed, and the lack of con score plus spellcasting levels means a really weak save.

Nope. Creatures lacking a constitution score generally substitute charisma instead. And as an epic Sorcerer, Xykon probably gets at least +5 to his fortitude saves from that.

[Freelance Henchman]

Durkon is a dorf (Meh :P) cleric

Whats a dorf cleric? A village cleric (Dorf = Village in german)?

[Aasimar]

Get a roomfull of paladins to rush him, make touch attacks and use up all their lay on hands. Enough will succeed to destroy him.

Seriously, for a mid-to-high level paladin, his lay on hands is probably his most powerful and undervalued weapon against undead...even high level undead.

[Woof]

Whats a dorf cleric? A village cleric (Dorf = Village in german)?

dorf = dwarf

[Dectilon]

A friend of mine killed of a demi lich in BG2 quite early by using a bunch of high-power traps piled on top of each other : )

[Guts]

You become a necrophile and make the lich your b****. The wretched creature will then be begging for its phylactery to be broken, either because its sad that it gave up the pleasures of the flesh or is very disturbed.

[BisectedBrioche]

The real question is why didn't Eugene tell Roy about it when he handed down the blood oath? Given how proud Eugene is of his own intellect, that was a pretty stupid omission.

Pride =/= competance. Just because he's a wizard doesn't mean he can't ignore logic, in fact that's basically his job.

[Jaysyn]

Nope. Creatures lacking a constitution score generally substitute charisma instead. And as an epic Sorcerer, Xykon probably gets at least +5 to his fortitude saves from that.

For concentration checks, not Fortitude saves.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm

[BisectedBrioche]

Hang on, wouldn't the ideal way to defeat a liche be to simply cover it in concrete or metal?

Its undead so it wouldn't be destroyed and as a result would be trapped and unable to regenerate.

[Jaysyn]

Hang on, wouldn't the ideal way to defeat a liche be to simply cover it in concrete or metal?

Its undead so it wouldn't be destroyed and as a result would be trapped and unable to regenerate.

Metal = Magic Missiles / Acid Arrows / Shatter would let them eventually force their way out. Not to mention if you used molten metal they would just die & go back to their phylactery.

Concrete = The lich would eventually chew / claw / blast his way out.

[Woof]

Hang on, wouldn't the ideal way to defeat a liche be to simply cover it in concrete or metal?

Its undead so it wouldn't be destroyed and as a result would be trapped and unable to regenerate.


The added "simply" sure made me laugh ;). Summon cement mixer, anyone?

[Freelance Henchman]

The added "simply" sure made me laugh ;). Summon cement mixer, anyone?

You know, this may be the most accurate prediction of Xykon's demise yet :smallcool:

[CardinalFang]

Metal = Magic Missiles / Acid Arrows / Shatter would let them eventually force their way out. Not to mention if you used molten metal they would just die & go back to their phylactery.

Concrete = The lich would eventually chew / claw / blast his way out.

Um...completely encased means the lich can't move. So he'd need Still Spell and Silent Spell to cast (unless you accept that a lich talks magically, instead of by moving air). And he definitely can't claw his way out if he can't move his arms.

[Freelance Henchman]

Um...completely encased means the lich can't move. So he'd need Still Spell and Silent Spell to cast (unless you accept that a lich talks magically, instead of by moving air). And he definitely can't claw his way out if he can't move his arms.

I guess it worked on Han Solo. And he's way more awesome than a lich!

[BisectedBrioche]

I guess it worked on Han Solo. And he's way more awesome than a lich!

Or better yet, encase the phylactory so he gets crushed everytime he tries to regenerate.

[gooddragon1]

Whats the highest possible diplomacy check for a level 13 character? Infinite. Yep, a really cool optimizer called Lordofprocrastination discovered a way to have an infinite check at a relatively low level. With this in mind its possible for him to permanently enslave xykon and turn him into his maid . Why destroy Xykon when you can humiliate him permanently?

The Omnifiscer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612)

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Hmm...let's see...

The best way to make a magic user crap their pants is to just take away their toys. An antimagic field as stated above is a great choice. In such a field, a spellcaster and anyone with supernatural abilities just has to suck it and try not to get themselves killed by the fighter with the big sword.

There are ways to stop an antimagic field...the problem is, if you are in one...you are at a loss unless you can kill the spellcaster.

A great 'summoner' trick is to use a small and hidable familiar to be the host of the antimagic field and stand outside it while summoning creatures that can toss stuff at your victim...a few well placed wall spells on the outskirts of the antimagic field will prevent anyone from leaving the area and it is not effected by the field once it is summoned.

[Freelance Henchman]

Or better yet, encase the phylactory so he gets crushed everytime he tries to regenerate.

That gave me an idea. Couldnt you use the phylactory as a "hostage" of sorts? I.e. "step away from the gate or the phylactory gets it".

[Closet_Skeleton]

That gave me an idea. Couldnt you use the phylactory as a "hostage" of sorts? I.e. "step away from the gate or the phylactory gets it".

Yes. But he can make a new phylactery so you actually have to be able to kill him afterwards. As written a lich's soul is only in the Phylactery while he's regenerating.

[BisectedBrioche]

That gave me an idea. Couldnt you use the phylactory as a "hostage" of sorts? I.e. "step away from the gate or the phylactory gets it".

Not really, the liche can make a new one later as long as he "lives".

[Milandros]

A set of tactic must be tailored for the circumstances of the moment. No single approach will work - it depends on whether the lich is flying or grounded, indoors r outdoors, can you get the range down low or will he always be a long way away from you, does he have minions, how many and what kind, how is the terrain, etc etc.

That said, there are several approaches that can help. Ideally you want to be indoors and at short range for dealing with a sorceror. The lich is only slightly more deadly than an equivalent-level sorceror - tactics that work against high level sorcerors will be appropriate, being careful not to choose undead-immune effects.

Magically, Silence, Anti-Magic Shell, various invulnerabiity spheres and so on are a good start (as are, of course, a load of elemental resistances and other defences that raise saves and/or give DR). And don't forget the enormous benefit of readied actions - readied actions to counterspell can take away an enormous mount of the enemy's abilities, as can readied actions to strike whenever a spell is cast in order to force concentration checks. Finally there are quite a few extremely unpleasant spells for a lich to face - disintegrate being one, but all of the various positive energy cure spells, particularly Heal, plus a paladin's lay on hands, can really do lots of damage quickly. Remember that a 20th level Lich has an average of 130 hit points - two or three good hits from cure spells could take much of that away.

All this is before doing things like choosing one's gear appropriately. Dispruption weapons, anti-magic items, undead bane arrows, etc, etc - all these can add up very fast as well. Yes, the lich may well make most of his saves, but if he fails one then he's gone.

After that it's divination spells to find the phylactery, which is a quest all by itself.

[Gnome_Paladin]

level 13 minotaur barbarian/ranger with favored enemy undead. armed with a baneful chaotic greataxe and vorpal blades on its horns, along with his mindflayer wizard friend and a half-dragon (black) blackgaurd. finally a lizardfolk druid.

The Minotaur is an awesome tanking machine with rage and a very nasty gore! he can effectively demolish the lich in combat while the the mind flayer is able shutdown his spellcasting and the half dragon brings its unique powers to support either character, the druid does whatever else it needs needs to!

and viola your lich is demolsihed

[Milandros]

level 13 minotaur barbarian/ranger with favored enemy undead. armed with a baneful chaotic greataxe and vorpal blades on its horns, along with his mindflayer wizard friend and a half-dragon (black) blackgaurd. finally a lizardfolk druid.

The Minotaur is an awesome tanking machine with rage and a very nasty gore! he can effectively demolish the lich in combat while the the mind flayer is able shutdown his spellcasting and the half dragon brings its unique powers to support either character, the druid does whatever else it needs needs to!

and viola your lich is demolsihed

Actually, I think that would work out quite badly against any half-decent lich.

Assuming an ECL 13 party, your minotaur is a level 11 barbarian/ranger. The axe is (a) slashing damage, so DR 15 comes into effect, (b) not lawful, so the chaotic part of the damage is useless, the vorpal horns don't effect undead and anyway, he's well, well over his allowed treasure allowance for the entire party - meaning nobody else has any at all.

The Mind Flayer is a 6th level wizard. He's hardly going to shut down the lich. His mental abilities and brain sucking are useless. Undead are one of the most fearsome enemys a mind flayer can have.

The 10th level half-dragon blackguard is not as effective as a half-dragon paladin - since no positive energy damage - or, for that matter, a 13th level human one. Flight is useful, the breath weapon could help a bit as long as the lich has no elemental resistances (possible, but unlikely), but the natural attacks are slashing damage (DR15/magic and bludgeoning) and the natural AC bonus is of less use against a sorceror lich that doesn't fight in melee.

The 12th level lizardfolk druid is ok, though, though I'd still look at a 13th level one without a monstrous race ECL just to get the seventh level spells.

[Snipers_Promise]

I think a stone collosus from the epic levels handbook should do it.

[dragoncmd]

So to counter his spells you would need at least:
- Shield vs. Magic Missile
- Negative Plane Protection vs. Vampiric Touch
- Protection against Death Magic vs. Finger of Death

Not true, to counter his spells you learn the same spells. The problem with counterspelling would be that not only does V have to make a spellcraft check to get the right spell, xykon is a soceror, (more spells per day) and a higher level (more spells per day).

[kapa]

just be like my party and have the VOP monk run in and flurry the lich haha

[sikyon]

So... what happens if the lich get's played like a PC? ie. Time Stop, run away to recharge spells, foresight, regroup and counterattack whoever dared to attack him?

[Kreistor]

So... what happens if the lich get's played like a PC? ie. Time Stop, run away to recharge spells, foresight, regroup and counterattack whoever dared to attack him?

Well, one would hope that most smart bosses get played that way...

[Zhrec]

Send Belkar to kill Xykon. Probable he will not kill him, but tear lich head off. Even if Belkar will die, amount of evil will decrease. Plus why not just send army of undead paladins (which is already done) and enjoy show. Xykon have no chance against them. He is toasted.
Another plan. Rise Roy, bless him and his sword with some Durkon and V's spells. Create untimagic and kick lich hard. And remember, Roy sword have some special ability against undead, it would create advantage against lich.
Yet, it would be more efficient to send hordes of low-level npc's, used up Xykon spells and kill him after. Enemy tactics %)

[Shua]

I think there is something being missed here. All of these are valid plans, IF you go by the rules word for word. I've never played with "rules nazis" becuase the game was never turned out to be any fun. I would like to point out that many of these plans are dependent on a few things. How subjective is the DM rp'ing the Lich? How creative is the party attacking the Lich? I'm not saying throw the rules out the window, However I know in the DM's guide as well as the Players HB, it clearly states that these are guidlines and are open to interpitation. Meaning that the rules can be modified to fit your campaign. How many DM's out there use a monster/enemy straight out of the Monster manual without modifying it? You see my point? Again all of these are valid plans. Again luck plays a big part, crictical fumbles and strikes factor in as well.

oh just a passing thought, A high level monk with spell resistance can be devastating...


~ Shua

[Freelance Henchman]

Meaning that the rules can be modified to fit your campaign. How many DM's out there use a monster/enemy straight out of the Monster manual without modifying it?

It's OK to assume though that the monster isnt actually unkillable by design, and does not have completely overboard abilities, like unlimited spells or something. Xykon is still "just" a lich, and there must be some weaknesses he shares with other liches. The point of the thread was to find out how other liches were defeated, and if there is anything similar our stalwart OOTSers can do.

[Gnome_Paladin]

Plan B;

"Maximized Summon AWP"

boom bye bye lich

The party i mentioned earlier did manage to tear apart a lich i was there tanking as minotaur, basically i threw everything i had at him at close range, it probably worth mentioning that the setting we were playing all the PC's were evil and everyone had to be a monstrous race

on a another note what level would you need to bee to summon a tarrasque? im sure that could destroy a lich.

[Jarrad]

There are just Too Many Variables. We don't know enough about Xykon's spells, and practically nothing about his feats (apart from Craft Wondrous Item) to know whether the above tactics are viable. Any smart high-level caster is going to "run away" - albeit briefly - from a party that look capable of finishing him off and there are zillions of counters to anything thus far described.

Most people seem to be assuming that the party will be able to close to melee range before the lich gets an action. Antimagic Shell? Pah - Wall of Force is impervious to same, and a nice way of ensuring that the AMS/Grapple combo never comes off. If you're going to attack a high-level caster with Antimagic Field as the basis of your approach, you need to be 100% sure that he doesn't get to cast a single spell before you get near him or you're toast.

Silence is a better bet than AMS, because it means you're not stripped of your own magical defenses when closing and can use magic to help you get close enough in the first place.

A bunch of mid-level Paladins with their lay on hands ability will be of little use if Xykon pulls out another Symbol of Insanity. A scroll of Wail of the Banshee (assuming Xykon doesn't know that one) will have a minimum Fortitude saving throw of 23 - and probably much more - and kill one creature per level within 40ft. Mass Hold Monster will have a similarly devastating effect but with a Will save. If Xykon has taken the Positive Energy Resistance monstrous feat, you can deduct 10 points of damage from every one of those lay on hands attacks.

Right now, I can't see a reasonable way of them defeating Xykon that doesn't amount to "pure luck". As for the original question in the thread, it's pretty much the same[1] as asking "How do you kill a high-level spellcaster in D&D?" and the answer is - as ever - "it depends". If he knows you're coming and you don't have any major surprises, the answer is "you don't". At best, you force him to withdraw.

Xykon's advice to Roy was actually pretty sound; they need a whole load more levels under their collective belt before taking him on!

How are the OoTS gang going to defeat Xykon? Could I please put a fiver on: "in some funny and wholly unexpected way that nobody has thought of yet, but that involves a major misunderstanding and/or serious degree of incompetence being displayed and quite probably someone or something dropping out of the sky"?


Jarrad


[1] Actually, if you're about the same level as the Lich it isn't the same question at all. Take a cleric with the Glory and Sun domains, a Phylactery of Undead Turning, the Improved Turning and Disciple of the Sun feats, five ranks in Knowledge (religion) and a heavily boosted Charisma. Teleport him to a location within 60' of the Lich that has line of sight and line of effect. Turn Undead. Watch Lich vapourise, guaranteed, no saving throw.[2] Then you just have to find out where he's hidden his soul before he goes phylacterytastic on you.

[2] This completely falls to pieces if your opponent has the Improved Turn Resistance feat - then you're relying on a good die roll!

[Jarrad]

The party i mentioned earlier did manage to tear apart a lich i was there tanking as minotaur, basically i threw everything i had at him at close range, it probably worth mentioning that the setting we were playing all the PC's were evil and everyone had to be a monstrous race

Then he was a very silly Lich indeed and not worthy of anything like BBEG status. What was he doing trading blows with a Minotaur?!


on a another note what level would you need to bee to summon a tarrasque? im sure that could destroy a lich.

I'm absolutely certain it wouldn't. The Lich would just *leave*!

[Green Bean]

Right now, I can't see a reasonable way of them defeating Xykon that doesn't amount to "pure luck". As for the original question in the thread, it's pretty much the same[1] as asking "How do you kill a high-level spellcaster in D&D?" and the answer is - as ever - "it depends". If he knows you're coming and you don't have any major surprises, the answer is "you don't". At best, you force him to withdraw.

Or


Disintegrate
Transmutation
Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Works on undead, because it works on objects. Xykon has a Con bonus of +0 and a sorceror's Fort save of +6 at best. V's spell would have a save DC of 21 (10 base+level 7 spell+four Int bonus). (S)He can cast it at least twice a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html), even more if (s)he used scrolls. Of course, all that proves is that spellcasters can beat spellcasters, and where's the dramatic potential in that.

[pathanos]

technically wouldnt any life giving spell 'kill' an undead?

[Shua]

This completely falls to pieces if your opponent has the Improved Turn Resistance feat - then you're relying on a good die roll!

Doesn't that go without saying for most things in D&D? You can have all the spell resistances, buffs, modifiers and on and on and on a 1 is a 1 and 20 is still a 20


~ Shua

[Freelance Henchman]

technically wouldnt any life giving spell 'kill' an undead?

Yes, positive energy damage, but he can resist it, and you need to touch him for most.

[pathanos]

I know its very unlikely but then it could work if the char was a rogue/cleric with a good to hit and a good move silently

[Freelance Henchman]

Xykon's advice to Roy was actually pretty sound; they need a whole load more levels under their collective belt before taking him on!

Pretty mean really, if this was a real D&D-game, to have such a powerful foe for a mid-level party. The only help they got, as far as I can see, thats really useful is Roy's +5 sword.

This whole thing is kind of bugging me. This is an entire city they are taking on, and a large one at that, but they could not put up much of a defense. Their highest level priest just got Destruction-ized in a battle about as exciting as two halflings pelting each other with rotten apples, an entire order of Paladins where absolutely zero use (when alive at least), the regular soldiers seem to be comparative pushovers as well.

Its a wonder Azure City had not been overrun by a single goblin with the sniffles long ago.

[Jarrad]

Or

{Stuff about Disintegrate}

Works on undead, because it works on objects. Xykon has a Con bonus of +0 and a sorceror's Fort save of +6 at best. V's spell would have a save DC of 21 (10 base+level 7 spell+four Int bonus). (S)He can cast it at least twice a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html), even more if (s)he used scrolls.

It's hard to even know where to start with this.

Firstly, the minimum save DC for Disintegrate is 19: it's a 6th-level spell for a Wizard or Sorceror. Secondly, if Xykon is into Epic levels he probably has Epic bonuses on his saving throws. Thirdly: Cloak of Resistance. Fourthly: Spell/Scroll/Ring of Absorption and/or Spell/Scroll/Ring of Spell Turning. Fifthly: It would rely on dumb luck in any case, as something as simple as -for instance - Fog Cloud would prevent V from being able to target the spell...

There are so many ways this tactic could be rendered either useless or only working on a fluke that it's pointless even trying to list them all. Blink, Blur, Entropic Shield, Invisibility and Mirror Image along with Dex-enhancing and myriad other effects can all make it far from likely that V will even hit him in the first place.

Finally, even if it hits and even if Xykon fails his saving throw, he'll take an average of 91 points of damage assuming that V is 13th level. Xykon - assuming 20HD - will have an average of 136 hit points... and unless V can get two shots off in a round, (s)he's unlikely to get another chance.

Any high-level caster who has survived for that long is aware of their weaknesses and even if - like Xykon - they're not the sharpest tools in the box, they'll have taken steps to avoid the obvious dangers.

I'm not saying it would be impossible for the OoTS to beat Xykon, I'm saying it would be fluke; and they'd pretty much have to get the drop on him in initiative terms. We just don't know what feats, items or spells Xykon has: it's always possible he'd be a complete walk-over, but in a standard D&D campaign he'd be nigh-impossible to deal with for a party seven or eight levels lower.

Shua: Er... no. It's entirely possible to arrange matters so it's impossible NOT to destroy an undead of your HD or even more on a turning check as there's no automatic success or failure there. That was sort of my point. There are plenty of spells that don't allow a saving throw, and Xykon is high enough level that even if they're not in his repertoire he could use them off, say, a scroll.

[Sizdothyx]

It's not that difficult to kill a lich. Xykon, despite being at least 20 lvl, has proved to be somewhat short sighted, despite seemingly having an answer to everything (see: symbol of insanity in the throne room).

Anyhow. Considering how OOTS has six members, the fight should be an honest joke; V and Durkon counterspell and counterspell, while the rest surround him and start kicking him... Not literally, of course. Despite that, his magic items could always prove to be far more dangerous than his spells. Not to mention that, for such a 'strategy' (feh, it's the most simple way to do things) to work, OOTS would need to get a few more levels...

Honestly, unless Xykon/random lich has Time Stop and Teleport in his repertoire of spells, he is pretty much dead... Or deader, if you want to get technical. Of course, the phylactery issue is still, well, an issue.

Seriously, it's not that tough a fight; usually, if a wizard fights a whole group of adventurers by himself, he's dead by round five-six (if the counterspell applies). Add the possibility of a successful Turn Undead in the mix in order to boost things for a while, and you have it.

[Shua]

That's kewl I hardly know anything about 3.0 or 3.5 I've heard good things, I've heard bad things. Mostly what I've heard is that its a watered down version of 2ed. Not trying to start any flaming or anything. Most of my knowledge comes from playing 2ed and skills and powers. So I hear you all talking about feats and sr and dc and what not and I'll admit I'm clueless. I'm approaching the Xykon issue from the perspective if this was an actual game. From where I stand a fumble; a natural 1 on a d20 is still a fumble a Criticle strike is a natural 20 on d20. My monk had a ridiculous initiative becuase her dex was so high that I almost naturaly went first. Sorry Rambling here.....

~ Shua

[Jarrad]

It's not that difficult to kill a lich. Xykon, despite being at least 20 lvl, has proved to be somewhat short sighted, despite seemingly having an answer to everything (see: symbol of insanity in the throne room).

Xykon being incompetent is the only hope they'd have...


Anyhow. Considering how OOTS has six members, the fight should be an honest joke; V and Durkon counterspell and counterspell,

Oh, yes. They're EIGHT LEVELS lower than him! Even if they take all their higher-level slots as Greater Dispel Magics they've got very little chance at succeeding on a counterspell. V could, potentially, ready an action to counter a spell he knows Xykon has (provided it's one he's high enough level to cast, i.e. not one of Xykon's 8th or 9th level spells) but again: we don't know what feats Xykon has. If he has, for instance, the feat that lets Sorcerors do metamagic without a full-round action (I forget what it's called off the top of my head: see Complete Mage) or has Arcane Preparation and throws a Quickened spell in during a round, counterspelling isn't much of an option. A Sudden Maximized Horrid Wilting would kill most of the party outright - 120 points of damage, Fortitude save for half.

Of course, V could have taken Mastery of Counterspelling, which would help a little, but we're back to second-guessing feats. Besides, for the rest of the party to start "kicking" him, they'd need a few more bludgeoning weapons than we've seen them use recently. Haley, Elan and Belkar would all be nigh-useless against Xykon, although it seems that Roy's sword has a special property that lets him overcome Xykon's DR.

You're also assuming that he doesn't get the chance to fight back. Even without casting a spell, every touch attack Xykon makes is going to require whoever is on the receiving end to make a minimum DC 24 Fortitude save to avoid paralysis.


Not to mention that, for such a 'strategy' (feh, it's the most simple way to do things) to work, OOTS would need to get a few more levels...

Well, yes, that's what I'm saying.


Honestly, unless Xykon/random lich has Time Stop and Teleport in his repertoire of spells, he is pretty much dead... Or deader, if you want to get technical.

Dimension Door, Dimension Hop, Ethereal Jaunt, Ghostform and Gate also spring to mind as useful instant-escape spells. Time Stop is nice, but not a necessity. Any spellcaster who gets to that sort of level without an escape spell is a) crazy and b) a very bizarre incongruity.

"Seriously, it's not that tough a fight; usually, if a wizard fights a whole group of adventurers by himself, he's dead by round five-six (if the counterspell applies)."

Only if he's the same level as the party and hasn't prepared for them.

"Add the possibility of a successful Turn Undead in the mix in order to boost things for a while, and you have it."

No chance at their current level. It's nigh-impossible to defeat a spellcaster of significantly higher level than you, if it's played intelligently by the DM and doesn't have some overwhelming reason to stay put and take damage.

If you're roughly equivalent level to the lich, you can kill one pretty much as easily as you would any other spellcaster. If it has a couple of levels on you, you're at a disadvantage; if it has eight levels on you, you're pretty much doomed (although that disadvantage disappears at very high Epic levels).

Of course, there are a couple of mitigating circumstances here. Xykon is the most ludicrously daft Big Bad Evil Guy spellcaster ever to grace a D&D-like setting, and of course he's relying on Redcloak as his primary minion... I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was Redcloak that did for him at the end!

[Kreistor]

That's kewl I hardly know anything about 3.0 or 3.5 I've heard good things, I've heard bad things. Mostly what I've heard is that its a watered down version of 2ed. Not trying to start any flaming or anything. Most of my knowledge comes from playing 2ed and skills and powers. So I hear you all talking about feats and sr and dc and what not and I'll admit I'm clueless. I'm approaching the Xykon issue from the perspective if this was an actual game. From where I stand a fumble; a natural 1 on a d20 is still a fumble a Criticle strike is a natural 20 on d20. My monk had a ridiculous initiative becuase her dex was so high that I almost naturaly went first. Sorry Rambling here.....

~ Shua

3.0 and 3.5 are nothing like 2.0, except in certain baselines. These systems are pretty much rewritten from scratch with balance in mind. I won't say that the classes are balanced flat, but they are much better balanced than any previous DnD game.

The new system provides guidelines for how to balance fights for the PC's to encounter. Monsters are rated according to the average level of the party expected to encounter them, and to ensure that balance is understood, the system even provides guidelines as to the monetary value of the equipment the PC's should have. (So that a DM that doesn't hand out enough equipment knows how to compensate for the loss of power by reducing the monsters they encounter.)

Anyway, I completely disagree with whoeer told you that 3.0 is a dumbed down 2.0.

[sikyon]

Well, one would hope that most smart bosses get played that way...

Well, what I meant was, what if he doesn't stick around to fight and just teleports away? Ie. he turns the table from being a defender to becoming the attacker. Normally the PC's have to attack the villan, not wait and wonder and try to prepare for the Villan to stalk them and pick a time of choosing to kill them...

[Caractacus]

My thoughts follow...

If I am a lich, then:

1) I am powerful

2) I am bright

3) I am ambitious

4) I am immortal (under normal circumstances)

5) It took yonks to get where I am

6) I don't want to lose my power or my immortality

7) I look for a spell which will allow me to tell if anyone is actively planning to hunt me down and destroy me (would Limited Wish or Wish do it? What about other spells?)

8) If no spell fits exactly, I look for a way around the problem or I develop my own.

9) Then I take amazing precautions. Some obvious ones (mentioned in the thread before) and others less guessable.

10) One needs escape routes and spells - the Teleport and Dimension Door spells sound good, but even better would be magic items that can replicate these effects without needing a spell to be cast. If one doesn't exist, I make it.

Basically, with the preparation that a Lich can put into dealing with potential enemies, it has little to fear. Unless it is an impatient, arrogant bugger with the attention span of a neurotic goldfish...oh, right...

(P.S. Sorry, goldfish...)

[Gnome_Paladin]

How about a death knight or a vampire surely the only thing that could kill undead is a more powerful undead, i mean if dorukan an epci level wizard couldn't beat him what else

also i doubt a lich could outrun the tarrasque :P

my final idea is a tanked up beholder surely those eye beams must be able to do something.

[BurntOfferings]

Many people here seem to be suggesting disruption, but at least according to the d20 hypertext site's writeup it doesn't work if the target is higher level than the caster... so the order's original plan wouldn't have worked anyway.
They're talking about the weapon enhancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#disruption), not the spell. However, Xykon's base Fortitude save (+6) plus a cloak of resistance +5 (and what 20th level character doesn't have one?) plus a luckstone (again, what 20th level character doesn't have one?) puts his save bonus at +12, solidly in "must roll a 1 to fail" territory. Failure here means destruction, though, so he's got one more reason to avoid people with magical bludgeoning weapons. For example, Xykon versus Belkar armed with two light maces of disruption == 26.5% chance each round of being turned to dust, about equal to his chances of being destroyed by disintegrate.


A great 'summoner' trick is to use a small and hidable familiar to be the host of the antimagic field and stand outside it while summoning creatures that can toss stuff at your victim...a few well placed wall spells on the outskirts of the antimagic field will prevent anyone from leaving the area and it is not effected by the field once it is summoned.
While I'm a fan of the anti-magic field strategy, I don't see how this would work. The spell in question does NOT have a target of "you" (it doesn't have any target at all, actually), so the mage can't cast it on his familiar via the "share spells" ability.


A bunch of mid-level Paladins with their lay on hands ability will be of little use if Xykon pulls out another Symbol of Insanity. A scroll of Wail of the Banshee (assuming Xykon doesn't know that one) will have a minimum Fortitude saving throw of 23 - and probably much more - and kill one creature per level within 40ft. Mass Hold Monster will have a similarly devastating effect but with a Will save. If Xykon has taken the Positive Energy Resistance monstrous feat, you can deduct 10 points of damage from every one of those lay on hands attacks.
A scroll with a 9th level spell always has a save DC of 23. For magic items other than staffs, the feats and ability scores of the user don't affect the save DC. Also, energy resistance, unlike damage reduction, is per round, not per attack. The first paladin's attack would be reduced by 10 points, but the other attacks that round would have their full effect. So a bunch of mid-level paladins could take out Xykon IF they got the drop on him (and that's a really big "if"). Give a bunch of them Spring Attack to get around the "only eight people can fit around the target" problem and it could get real ugly for the lich. But he would deserve it for letting a horde of mid-level paladins sneak up on him in the first place.

[Closet_Skeleton]

How about a death knight or a vampire surely the only thing that could kill undead is a more powerful undead, i mean if dorukan an epci level wizard couldn't beat him what else

also i doubt a lich could outrun the tarrasque :P

my final idea is a tanked up beholder surely those eye beams must be able to do something.

Nobody in Oots has ever mentioned Epic level apart from Durkon's "love" quip. We have no evidence that Xykon or Dorukon were Epic, though Xykon will have a CR or LA (not that NPCs really have LAs) that brings him above 20.

[Milandros]

How about a death knight or a vampire surely the only thing that could kill undead is a more powerful undead, i mean if dorukan an epci level wizard couldn't beat him what else

also i doubt a lich could outrun the tarrasque :P

my final idea is a tanked up beholder surely those eye beams must be able to do something.

OK, a beholder could be a deadly option - it's the anti-magic ray in it's cen tral eye that's the killer - but hand-to-hand (the other eyes won't work in its own anti-magic ray) it's not the toughest. Still, it has a chance.

As for death Knights or vampires, well, it all depends on CR, doesn't it? Yes, a 18th level sorceror vampire can probably blow the smeg out of a 9th level sorceror lich, but that's not the question here. The question is how does a OoTS-type level CR character fight a lich of Xykon's level, and it's not easy. Vampire's have an ECL of +8, so even if you're putting a ECL 20 vampire against a CR 20 lich, it's a 12th level sorceror vampire against an 18th level sorceror lich. A ECL 13 5th level sorceror vampire is definitely in trouble.

Outrunning the tarrasque is easy. The tarrasque has a standard move of 20'. A human commoner can outrun it. It has a 150' rush attack once every ten rounds, but it's not exactly going to subtly creep into range first :) - and a lich with overland flight, dimension door, haste, teleport, greater teleport, plane shift, etc etc etc is not likely to let himself get caught.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Counterspelling a spellcasting opponent. As V once said, this is a seldom used but often effective method of negating an enemy spellcaster. Especially if you're playing a psionic in a high-transparency (where psionics and magic are the same thing, just using different rules) campaign, or one with Negate Magic.

I oughta know, during the middle levels my kobold psion probably used half his power points daily with this very tactic. There are two flaws though, and the "cleric war" comic displayed one very well -- it's a contested roll, and sooner or later you miss one. The other has to do with quickened spells.

Still, if you know your opponent can throw things like Meteor Swarm around, it's better than taking the damage...

[Decoy Lockbox]

Hey guys, first post from a long-time lurker on these boards.

Last time my D&D group encountered a lich, the battle came to a hilarious conclusion: the lich flew at us through a dense tree canopy, with the improved invisibility spell on him. He also had a DM-created spell that was basically a very nasty "improved displacement" that gave the lich a 75% miss chance against our attacks. We rolled initiative, and our party wizard went first. He could see the lich (due to a permancied see invisibility) and he casually stepped forward and cast a sudden maximized, sudden empowered disintegrate spell. The attack roll expectedly hit, and the DM rolled the miss chance, using a notebook to the cover the dice. After looking at the results, he practically banged his head on the table -- The miss chance had failed, as had the lich's fortitude save, transforming the once-formidable boss encounter into a cloud of iridescent green dust.

For some reason I had never realized that a lich's very very poor fortitude save could be exploited by disintegrate. Using the same principle, arrows of undead slaying also work wonders, especially if you can equip a number of party members with them. However, rays and arrows can easily be foiled by using spells like wind wall and ray deflection (spell compendium), both of which have become standard tactics for arcane casters in our games.

One common mistake that I have noticed people making in this discussion is the assumption that characters are going to be able to enter melee or touch range with Xykon (or any other lich). To quote Xykon himself, "factor one: I can fly under my own power thanks to the overland flight spell" By 10th lvl, a sorceror can cast overland flight with a duration of 10 hours (1 hour per lvl), which means that he never needs to walk again once he hits 20th level, or uses the extend spell / sudden extend feat to make the duration longer until then. Given how feeble arcane casters are in melee situations, especially grapples, it would be foolhardy to assume that a lich or any other caster would not take the opportunity to fly if he could. And assuming the party doesn't trap the lich in some sort of low ceiling room, he is most certainly going to go airborne, if he isn't already in the air when the fight starts.

A lot of people, including an old DM of mine, think that the lich's paralyzing touch is his nastiest ability, but this is definitely not the case. If you think about a lich fight in purely tactical terms, his use of that touch attack would be a best case scenario for the party -- not only has he not used his turn to cast nasty spells, but he has put himself within melee range of the party, allowing the party fighters and monks to go completely sickhouse on his bony posterior. For most people I have seen, playing an arcane caster is all about putting as much distance possible between yourself and your opponent; fireball has a range of 400 ft + 40/lvl for a reason.

Of course, when the Order of the Stick eventually defeats Xykon, it certainly wont be in a conventional manner. If their first fight had been by the book, it would have been both more boring and more lopsided. Xykon could have employed any number of party-killing tactics available to high level spellcasters, such as the combo of casting Timestop and then using the extra rounds to buff yourself and of course Gate in a Balor to win you the fight. The point being, that if Xykon is actually as high level as he is depicted in the story, and he continues to be higher level than the party, I cannot come up with a truly reliable way for them to win, especially if he uses scry to prepare for the fight and so on. The only advantage they have is that V, as a wizard, can know many more spells than Xykon ever can, and that the party has more actions per round than Xykon.

Sorry about the length of this post; I just finished another year in college and am still getting out of final paper mode.

[belboz]

also i doubt a lich could outrun the tarrasque :P


He doesn't have to outrun it. He just has to teleport away, or get up into the air.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

As has been said, the anti-magic field is the best method for taking down any spellcaster and Xykon is no exception. The next step is a decent monk to grapple him and crush him to death with his bare hands. The monk would only have to be 13th level to stand more than a good chance of keeping the lich down and the anti-magic field is perfect for keeping all those obnoxious spells at bay.
Finding the phalactry is a little tougher since Xykon has had decades to hide it and clearly has the ability to convince anyone evil to follow his commands [except Miko]. But Redcloak would be another rather blatant target for extermination given his current display of power and his place as Xykon's second in command of team evil. Killing Redcloak could prove tough, but the same tactic could be applied that was used on his master. Once the pair is defeated the phalactry wouldn't take too long to find and even if it did Xykon would most likely be surrounded by the enemies who took him down already and be exterminated for good in short order.
But since the Stick doesn't seem to have a monk, or even a decent fighter this plan won't exactly work for them. Durkon could attempt it himself with V, providing the anti-magic field but this tactic is much more risky since no magic could be involved in the battle. But since when did good tactics and the Order of the Stick become even remotely close to each other?

Which is funny because in OotPCs Belkar "displaced" a monk that was about to join the party. Belkar had a whole tirade about how 3rd edition monks sucked (which is even more funny because they're pretty darn good in 3.5 edition).

[Gavin Sage]

One common mistake that I have noticed people making in this discussion is the assumption that characters are going to be able to enter melee or touch range with Xykon (or any other lich). To quote Xykon himself, "factor one: I can fly under my own power thanks to the overland flight spell" By 10th lvl, a sorceror can cast overland flight with a duration of 10 hours (1 hour per lvl), which means that he never needs to walk again once he hits 20th level, or uses the extend spell / sudden extend feat to make the duration longer until then. Given how feeble arcane casters are in melee situations, especially grapples, it would be foolhardy to assume that a lich or any other caster would not take the opportunity to fly if he could. And assuming the party doesn't trap the lich in some sort of low ceiling room, he is most certainly going to go airborne, if he isn't already in the air when the fight starts.

And yet Xykon only used flying rather recently. Climatic battle back in the tower he just walked around like anyone else. Lich aren't exactly known for flying about in broad daylight for all the world to see. Undead are found in well tombs, or dungeons, or other rather small scale locales like most everything else.

So why assume a lich would simply go around casting it on themselves all day. If going on the offensive like Xykon is now but when just around their lair? Your making a broad tactical assumption in that the battle is going to be in some wide open area where you could fly.

Plus Fly is only a 3rd level spell and with a 10th level caster would last 10 minutes. That's how many rounds? So only something like an antimagic field wouldn't be able to just follow into the air. And for an antimagic field, suprise attack when the lich is not flying and once in the field it can't start. Also Dispel magic targeting the flight effect.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I was referring to the Overland flight spell, which has a 1 hour per level duration and is quite useful for lengthy flying sprees.

And as for the assumption that Xykon would be able to fly when he is encountered, that was more of a plot thing I was thinking of. After all, since Xykon is the antagonist, the Order will most likely have their final battle with him in a spot of his choosing (perhaps Xykon has some sort of ultimate lair or something), and if he chooses to have a ridiculously high ceiling in his lair, that is his choice. Obviously, a well-placed dispel magic will bring the lich down, but that relies on the caster rolling well on the dispel check. And if he fails, perhaps the lich will realize the threat and disintegrate him?

Another tactic I forgot to mention is an underhanded one: the Silence spell can be used to effectively counter spells with verbal components, which means that the party cleric or bard could keep the lich from doing anything productive (barring the use of silent spell) while the rest of the party attacks him with whatever they have at their disposal.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Which is funny because in OotPCs Belkar "displaced" a monk that was about to join the party. Belkar had a whole tirade about how 3rd edition monks sucked (which is even more funny because they're pretty darn good in 3.5 edition).

They're better in 3.5, but they're still not at their 1st edition cheese (I think second edition skipped them).

[Gnome_Paladin]

okay people after much book searching i have come up with the bane of all undead: The Glory prestige Domain!

granted Power: +2 on turning +1d6 turn damage
access to the following extra spells:
Disrupt undead
Bless Weapon
Searing Light
Holy smite
Bolt of Glory
Holy Sword
Sunbeam
crown of glory
Gate

Now lets put this in game terms a 5/10 Cleric Dracolyte (lg) id well tooled up ot take out a lich wiht 15 levels of divine spellcasting behind him and the ability to summon an adult gold dragon as a full round action, cast holy sword on this dragons natural attacks and that lich will be snuffed out sharpish
of course he would need support from a pure cleric and some form of tank but all in all prestige domains would comfortably rip lichs apart, Undeath to Death anyone? or antimagic ray?

[Gnome_Paladin]

also earthbind would remove his fly powers :)

[Tyrmatt]

My memories only come from defeating Baldurs Gate liches (lichii? lichen?), where you either expended one of the very very rare Anti-Magic Shell scrolls on your biggest baddest fighter and let him go to town. There were two such enemies that demanded this approach in my opinion, the Demi-Lich and the Crooked Crane lich. Other ones were beaten down with the standard tactic of having my druids conjure in giant fire elementals and letting them take the beating while everyone piled in with bludgeoning damage.

[Shua]

They're better in 3.5, but they're still not at their 1st edition cheese (I think second edition skipped them).

They were sadly passed over in 2ed, however Dragon magazine had very nice warrior monk kit that helped to balance and bring them on par with other character classes. It's that very template that I've used several times in previous campaigns.

~ Shua

[Crazy Slasher]

I've killed a lich with a party of six ninth-level characters.

Three words: wand of silence.

(Well, okay, six words: wand of silence and enclosed space.)

Has anyone else played Red Hand of Doom? My party's fight with the Ghostlord was pathetically easy. One of the characters was paralyzed for a while, but that was the only real difficulty.

[ErikZ]

How would I defeat a Lich?
I would use a trap and drop a really big rock on him.