Mastermind Rogue

[Rhaegar14]

Link (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SCAG_RoguishArchetype_m39d.pdf)

So am I the only one that this worries a bit for the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? This subclass seems very weak. The 9th level feature is just about useless (9 times out of 10 who has the better mental score won't be critical or even useful information, and NPCs rarely have class levels), and the capstone is painfully context-specific and at a level past when anyone who cares about those things can get access to Mind Blank.

[Hyena]

I dunno, masterminds seems far better than both thief and arcane trickster.

[treecko]

The help as a bonus action is insane with paladins, other rogues, and barbarians. Granted, arcane trickster could sort of already do this with an owl familiar. I think the class looks pretty cool, and besides, the rogue chassis is strong enough. Most of the other archetype features are pretty situational as well.

[Nifft]

Link (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SCAG_RoguishArchetype_m39d.pdf)

So am I the only one that this worries a bit for the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? This subclass seems very weak. The 9th level feature is just about useless (9 times out of 10 who has the better mental score won't be critical or even useful information, and NPCs rarely have class levels)

Me: "Hey DM. Hey, hey DM."

DM: "Yes?"

Me: "Am I smarter than the captain of the guards?"

DM: "Yes. Yes, you are smarter."

Me: [SMUGNESS INTENSIFIES]


Sounds like it's totally worth taking that subclass for certain people.

[Mrglee]

See, I feel it is pretty meh. Like, it gives Advantage for one attack roll, which is nice, but plenty of classes have ways to already get more than that. And every other ability is just...eh. I don't know, probably just not for me.

[Belac93]

Campaign idea: Thieves guild, with a character of each rogue subclass. Assassin+Mastermind could be the infiltrators, and the thief and arcane trickster could steal as the swahbuckler is a distraction. In large scale combat the Mastermind could use Master of Tactics to allow sneak attack to the characters who aren't paired up with another, and also use a shortbow or rapier in the meantime. If a group of rogues worked together, the Mastermind would be a huge advantage. Or mastermind charlatan + Assassin could sneak into anywhere, even places that a thief couldn't go to.
Mastermind is an awesome idea.

[Telwar]

Honestly, it's pretty darn good. Sure, other classes can get advantage on their own, but then that just means more advantage all around.

[Naanomi]

The only downside is how it splits 'disguise master' with assassin... Now if I want to be the master of impersonation I have to choose between accents and undetectable lies OR establishing cover IDs and impersonating specific people.

As always options are somehow limiting, as before mastermind existed I could mimic dialects as an assassin, but now I can't.

[JoeJ]

As always options are somehow limiting, as before mastermind existed I could mimic dialects as an assassin, but now I can't.

Why can't you do it now? Put another way, what was letting you do it before that has been taken away?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Why can't you do it now? Put another way, what was letting you do it before that has been taken away?

Essentially, the fact that it is codified as a mastermind ability means it is codified as not being an assassin ability. Previously, it was something just not covered in the rules.

Overall, though, I quite like this. Even in combat, Master of Tactics and Misdirection are pretty potent, certainly outclassing the Thief, except maybe after 17th level.

[Nifft]

Essentially, the fact that it is codified as a mastermind ability means it is codified as not being an assassin ability. Previously, it was something just not covered in the rules. The Mastermind allows you to mimic an accent unerringly, which IMHO means without rolling -- and thus no chance to fail.

An Assassin could still mimic an accent, but you'd have to roll.

Just like before.

[Rhaegar14]

I never said that the third level ability is bad, though its value in my mind might be somewhat reduced because my table plays with flanking rules (which makes advantage a very easy thing to get and reduces the value of abilities that grant advantage in my frame of reference). But one great third level ability doesn't excuse mediocre-at-best 9th level and capstone features. But then, bias again; I find lackluster capstones to be extremely lame even though I logically realize that they're pretty much the least important abilities in a game system.

Still, I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want other points of view. Is advantage on ONE attack as a bonus action really that big a deal? Especially when it costs me my Cunning Action or off-hand attack (admittedly only a big deal if you missed with your main hand)?

[MrStabby]

So my logic is that advantage is worth at best half an attack. Prob attack misses on 1 roll * prob it hits on second takes a max value of 0.25 (with a hit probability of 0.5 this is equivalent to half an attack.

So for many parties it will be a worse use of a bonus action than taking a second weapon and beating with it or using any other feat/ability that gives a bonus attack.

The exception is if there is a class that can get much more damage on a hit than the rogue could with their bonus action - say if the rogue hits but there is a second rogue or you need paladin nova damage. Possibly if dealing with damage immunity or suchlike

I could see it as a back up plan - if your attack hits you use bonus action to give advantage, if not use bonus action for second attack.

Basically as the rogue has a lot of uses for bonus actions it is a pretty weak ability but in a diverse party where you can give advantage to some kind of super-special attack (say a high level spell) then it could be ok even if it only gets used once per day or so.

[Human Paragon 3]

It looks good to me. This fulfills a certain character type very well, and some people would rather play a subtle influencer than a stabby mcstabberson rogue. The help action is great as a bonus action! Tons of people I play with don't care about DPR.

[Mrglee]

So am I the only one that this worries a bit for the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? This subclass seems very weak. The 9th level feature is just about useless (9 times out of 10 who has the better mental score won't be critical or even useful information, and NPCs rarely have class levels), and the capstone is painfully context-specific and at a level past when anyone who cares about those things can get access to Mind Blank.

I just noticed this statement, and it has the Swashbuckler archtype. If that archetype is half as good as its UA article (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf), the power level will be fine.

[Strill]

The help as a bonus action is insane with paladins, other rogues, and barbarians. Granted, arcane trickster could sort of already do this with an owl familiar. I think the class looks pretty cool, and besides, the rogue chassis is strong enough. Most of the other archetype features are pretty situational as well.

How is it "insane" when you could already just hide to give YOURSELF advantage. You know, because YOU as the ROGUE are the one who benefits the most from Advantage.

Mastermind sucks. Help as a bonus action is nothing more than a ribbon for a rogue who can already get Advantage every turn from hiding. If this is supposed to compare to Assassinate, it needs another level 3 feature.

[JoeJ]

Essentially, the fact that it is codified as a mastermind ability means it is codified as not being an assassin ability. Previously, it was something just not covered in the rules.

Overall, though, I quite like this. Even in combat, Master of Tactics and Misdirection are pretty potent, certainly outclassing the Thief, except maybe after 17th level.

The mastermind ability allows you to unerringly mimic the speech of a particular person you hear speaking for a minute. The assassin ability allows you to unerringly the speech, writing, and behavior or a particular person you observe for three hours. The actor feat allows you to mimic another person's speech with a successful Deception roll, that you have advantage on. It seems pretty straightforward that if you don't have any of those, you can mimic speech with a successful Deception roll without advantage (unless something else gives it to you).

[Malifice]

I never said that the third level ability is bad, though its value in my mind might be somewhat reduced because my table plays with flanking rules (which makes advantage a very easy thing to get and reduces the value of abilities that grant advantage in my frame of reference). But one great third level ability doesn't excuse mediocre-at-best 9th level and capstone features. But then, bias again; I find lackluster capstones to be extremely lame even though I logically realize that they're pretty much the least important abilities in a game system.

Still, I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want other points of view. Is advantage on ONE attack as a bonus action really that big a deal? Especially when it costs me my Cunning Action or off-hand attack (admittedly only a big deal if you missed with your main hand)?

I tried flanking for one session then ditched it (way too strong). Havent looked back.

I like the acrchetype. It's an option for players that want to focus more on the social pillar of the game.

[Spacehamster]

Link (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SCAG_RoguishArchetype_m39d.pdf)

So am I the only one that this worries a bit for the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? This subclass seems very weak. The 9th level feature is just about useless (9 times out of 10 who has the better mental score won't be critical or even useful information, and NPCs rarely have class levels), and the capstone is painfully context-specific and at a level past when anyone who cares about those things can get access to Mind Blank.

If you are a hardcore optimizer it seems weak, sounds fun rp wise tho. :)

[Rhaegar14]

I tried flanking for one session then ditched it (way too strong). Havent looked back.

I like the acrchetype. It's an option for players that want to focus more on the social pillar of the game.

I would really, really like not to play with flanking, as my character is our group's "tank" (whether or not that's really a viable goal in D&D is irrelevant; point is, he's our only dedicated frontline melee and has Sentinel) and gets dropped every other combat encounter, and how easily enemies can get advantage on him is a big part of that. But I'm not DMing so it's not my decision to make.

[Malifice]

I would really, really like not to play with flanking, as my character is our group's "tank" (whether or not that's really a viable goal in D&D is irrelevant; point is, he's our only dedicated frontline melee and has Sentinel) and gets dropped every other combat encounter, and how easily enemies can get advantage on him is a big part of that. But I'm not DMing so it's not my decision to make.

Discussed it with your DM?

[Rhaegar14]

Discussed it with your DM?

Yeah, his response is that it's realistic. I even tried to suggest Sentinel including immunity to flanking so that I'm not constantly getting wrecked, but to no avail. I may try to bring it up again.

On this tangent, I don't get it. He's clearly concerned about how fragile my Paladin is; he's already had to deus ex machina me from death once, because we were second level, I was super excited to be playing this character, and his setting doesn't have resurrection magic. But then I suggest things like "let's not play with flanking" or "look at this magic item that gives me advantage on death saving throws and doubles my healing from spending hit dice -- maybe you could throw that in a loot pile somewhere so I don't almost die every session?" and he does not really listen. It's gotten worse since we realized that they updated the OA rules and I'm not entitled to one unless an enemy leaves the area I threaten, and can move through it freely. It frustrates me, but overall it's a small gripe. I'm enjoying the game and like the people in the group too much to make a big stink over it.

[Malifice]

Yeah, his response is that it's realistic. I even tried to suggest Sentinel including immunity to flanking so that I'm not constantly getting wrecked, but to no avail. I may try to bring it up again.

It's not realistic at all, and of course youre getting wrecked.

http://onlinedungeonmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Advantage_Disadvantage_Probabilities.png

As soon as there are 2 or more enemies, they all get perma-advantage. Its ridiculous.

In 3.x it was +2 to hit (much less of a perk than advantage), and was hard to get due to being limited to 5' steps.

Point him to the (numerous) threads on the topic of why its a bad idea, or convince him to reduce it to +2 to hit (the suggested fix).


On this tangent, I don't get it. He's clearly concerned about how fragile my Paladin is; he's already had to deus ex machina me from death once, because we were second level, I was super excited to be playing this character, and his setting doesn't have resurrection magic. But then I suggest things like "let's not play with flanking" or "look at this magic item that gives me advantage on death saving throws and doubles my healing from spending hit dice -- maybe you could throw that in a loot pile somewhere so I don't almost die every session?" and he does not really listen. It's gotten worse since we realized that they updated the OA rules and I'm not entitled to one unless an enemy leaves the area I threaten, and can move through it freely. It frustrates me, but overall it's a small gripe. I'm enjoying the game and like the people in the group too much to make a big stink over it.

I suggest retiring the character and playing a wizard.

When the party gets TPK'd by getting bum-rushed in melee, you can shrug and say 'told you so'.

[Ralanr]

So the level 9 ability is a mental version of BM fighter level 7 ability. Ok, kinda don't enjoy that but more abilities that magic can't replicate is nice.

All in all it seems like a support rogue when combat happens. Multiclassing with battle master could make a decent warlord.

Somewhat off topic: I wonder if swashbuckler rogues have different two weapon fighting rules. Considering how they're described as using a weapon in each hand. Already I want to make that fighter/rogue two weapon fighting swashbuckling dragonborn.

[Silver Wind]

Am I the only person who thinks that the level 13 ability, Misdirection, is incapable of working as per the RAW?

"Beginning at 13th level, you can sometimes cause another creature to suffer an attack meant for you. When you are targeted by an attack while a creature within 5 feet of you is granting you "Cover" against that attack, you can use your reaction to have the attack target that creature instead of you."

PHB page 196 defines cover provided by a creature as being when a creature is standing between you and the enemy, which requires it be at least 10 ft away, so the ability doesn't work at melee because you couldn't have cover against an enemy adjacent to you.
That's fine, Master of Tactics suggests the build operate at range anyway. So it takes a reach weapon or a ranged weapon to target you for you to try and redirect it. However Unless you or the creature providing cover can move in response to the attack, regardless of what type of attack it is, the attacker would simply step to the side and attack you when that creature is no longer providing cover. Even if say it's locked in melee with another ally, it can still walk around that ally to get around the cover they create for you. And unless one of you can move in response there is then no creature between you and the attacker meaning no cover which the ability specifically requires to work.
So unless you homebrew it to ignore the cover requirement, or include a move in the reaction so you can reposition yourself behind another creature to re-establish cover, the ability is incapable of functioning as per the RAW except against the most brain dead of enemies that would try and attack you with a ranged or reach weapon through another person whom they are both ignoring and electing to not step around or to the side of.
Please tell me I've missed something here and this ability does in fact work. Also I do apologise if this came off as a bit of a rant, but I was expecting something a little bit less underwhelming from an archetype with master in it's title.

[TopCheese]

So UA won't be a specific book but just what they use to show people options? Neat (i see the swashbuckler).

Mastermind is overall lackluster. It has some interesting options (30' help action yesss) but otherwise has some pathetic options.

Master of Tactics is perfect for a low level martial ability. This is the type of things that martials need to make them be better and not just *I move and hit*. Of course now the rogue is a familiar haha.

Needing a minute to use Insightful Manipulator is down right pathetic. Not unbalanced at all to make it an action that later becomes a bonus action (but watch out, growth for a martial only option might break reality).

Soul of Deceit is nice, if you gained it around level 9 - 12. It really isn't a high level feature. It is nice, yes, but very very niche which hurts it being so high of level. Besides, This will get you in trouble. If the rogue and another PC are under some sort of zone of truth (or whatever) and they say different things but both show up as *not lying* the jig is up.

Misdirection is wait too late. Also a lot of games don't keep track of cover (AL/Home Games). Very niche but not because of the rules just how many people play. This would be awesome if fighting defensively was a thing where you got more than one reaction (so you could use this, uncanny dodge, or other reactions in one round).

D+

Starts our with a fantastic level (3), gains a pathetic level (9), gains a decent level (13), and gains another pathetic level (17).

Overall most of these are not things that let the rogue, rogue, but depend on other things happening for them to be able to rogue more.

I would dip Rogue 3/4/5 in a heartbeat

[Louro]

Oh, when I saw "mastermind" I was expecting this kind of rogue
http://coelhosninjas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/post_personagem_05.gif

[JackPhoenix]

Oh, when I saw "mastermind" I was expecting this kind of rogue
http://coelhosninjas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/post_personagem_05.gif

Why mastermind? He was clearly an assassin. And while he had his band of minions, he was better at handling things personally then commanding them.

[TopCheese]

Spoiler tags are a thing so that people on mobile data doesn't have to load gifs, or multiple gifs, when they visit a page.

Hint hint nudge nudge... :)

[EvilAnagram]

It could be very useful in deciding which mental stats your allies should target with their spells.

Misdirection is also quite nice.

In general, it's mostly utility, just like every other Rogue archetype.

[Osrogue]

Am I the only person who thinks that the level 13 ability, Misdirection, is incapable of working as per the RAW?

"Beginning at 13th level, you can sometimes cause another creature to suffer an attack meant for you. When you are targeted by an attack while a creature within 5 feet of you is granting you "Cover" against that attack, you can use your reaction to have the attack target that creature instead of you."

PHB page 196 defines cover provided by a creature as being when a creature is standing between you and the enemy, which requires it be at least 10 ft away, so the ability doesn't work at melee because you couldn't have cover against an enemy adjacent to you.
That's fine, Master of Tactics suggests the build operate at range anyway. So it takes a reach weapon or a ranged weapon to target you for you to try and redirect it. However Unless you or the creature providing cover can move in response to the attack, regardless of what type of attack it is, the attacker would simply step to the side and attack you when that creature is no longer providing cover. Even if say it's locked in melee with another ally, it can still walk around that ally to get around the cover they create for you. And unless one of you can move in response there is then no creature between you and the attacker meaning no cover which the ability specifically requires to work.
So unless you homebrew it to ignore the cover requirement, or include a move in the reaction so you can reposition yourself behind another creature to re-establish cover, the ability is incapable of functioning as per the RAW except against the most brain dead of enemies that would try and attack you with a ranged or reach weapon through another person whom they are both ignoring and electing to not step around or to the side of.
Please tell me I've missed something here and this ability does in fact work. Also I do apologise if this came off as a bit of a rant, but I was expecting something a little bit less underwhelming from an archetype with master in it's title.

Does Misdirection prevent you from directing the attack at another player, like the tank in full plate? That seems totally like something a (probably evil) dastardly rogue would do.

So how I see it is that ability 1 helps rogues sneak attack, ability 2 helps wizards target an ability score, and ability 3 helps tanks tank.

[snowman87]

I played a Changeling Rogue from the UA Eberron article in our last Eberron game and this was exactly what I needed to make him what I wanted, an impersonator who could be anybody, figure out anybody and go anywhere he pleased. I had to take two different feats to get the same effects that would have come standard with this one archetype. If I made him again I could have used those ASI's to actually increase my stats or get even cooler feats.

[SSGoW]

Does Misdirection prevent you from directing the attack at another player, like the tank in full plate? That seems totally like something a (probably evil) dastardly rogue would do.

So how I see it is that ability 1 helps rogues sneak attack, ability 2 helps wizards target an ability score, and ability 3 helps tanks tank.

Why stop there?

Target an ally who has this feature who has cover, who then targets an ally that has this feature who has cover from the attacker, who then targets the attacker.

Rogue conga line!

[jkat718]

Why stop there?

Target an ally who has this feature who has cover, who then targets an ally that has this feature who has cover from the attacker, who then targets the attacker.

Rogue conga line!

This...is genius. :smallamused:

[SharkForce]

This...is genius. :smallamused:

or you can just send it at a summoned monster that is immune to normal weapons.

[SSGoW]

This...is genius. :smallamused:

Thank you, this is why I'm not allowed to play illusionist anymore.


or you can just send it at a summoned monster that is immune to normal weapons.

So those exist? Wouldn't they get mad if you kept attacking them?

[Ralanr]

or you can just send it at a summoned monster that is immune to normal weapons.

Where's the fun in that?

[MeeposFire]

Where's the fun in that?

Seriously the point is to be able to tell him to "Stop hitting yourself".

[Ralanr]

Also, by RAW the halfing rogue would be able to abuae this all day and night.

[Submortimer]

Also, by RAW the halfing rogue would be able to abuae this all day and night.

Cause they need ANOTHER reason to play a rogue...

[TopCheese]

Cause they need ANOTHER reason to play a rogue...

When you get rid of racial ability score increases you will find that races don't gravitate toward one class so much.

Without RASI you get Halfling strength based barbarians just as much as Halfling dexterity based rogues.

Dwarven rogues also seem to be popular among new players, something about Dwarven ninjas being sweet. Lol

[Ralanr]

Cause they need ANOTHER reason to play a rogue...

Just like half-orcs and barbarians.

Though halfings would only be able to impersonate kids or midgets/little people.

I wonder how they're addressed in a fantasy setting where halfings and dwarves exist (because I know someone was going to say GoT if I didn't specify).

[TopCheese]

Just like half-orcs and barbarians.

Though halfings would only be able to impersonate kids or midgets/little people.

I wonder how they're addressed in a fantasy setting where halfings and dwarves exist (because I know someone was going to say GoT if I didn't specify).

Belkar covered this while in Azure city... Stilts and a robe is the halfling's friends.

[Coyote81]

Belkar covered this while in Azure city... Stilts and a robe is the halfling's friends.

This is exactly what I was thinking, he made a great Paladin impersonator.

[SharkForce]

huh, just had a crazy thought... you could make great use of that ability if you can grapple. guess which class gets the best ability to reliably use skills, everyone! :)

[Ralanr]

huh, just had a crazy thought... you could make great use of that ability if you can grapple. guess which class gets the best ability to reliably use skills, everyone! :)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say bard.

:smalltongue:

[MeeposFire]

When you get rid of racial ability score increases you will find that races don't gravitate toward one class so much.

Without RASI you get Halfling strength based barbarians just as much as Halfling dexterity based rogues.

Dwarven rogues also seem to be popular among new players, something about Dwarven ninjas being sweet. Lol

I agree with your premise but actually halfling (and gnome barbarians) would be more rare with people that care about getting maximum benefit from a race. The reason is due to their small size. Small size means you can't use heavy weapons effectively which means you cannot use the great weapon master feat with its power attack type bonus. That is by far more important than better starting stat choices.

Heck halfling stats are not bad for a barbarian. Bonus to con and dex means they are getting boosts to two important ability scores. Yes str is slightly lower but hey you can get that back without too much trouble.

[Ralanr]

I agree with your premise but actually halfling (and gnome barbarians) would be more rare with people that care about getting maximum benefit from a race. The reason is due to their small size. Small size means you can't use heavy weapons effectively which means you cannot use the great weapon master feat with its power attack type bonus. That is by far more important than better starting stat choices.

Heck halfling stats are not bad for a barbarian. Bonus to con and dex means they are getting boosts to two important ability scores. Yes str is slightly lower but hey you can get that back without too much trouble.

Spear and shield. Be a Spartan halfing.

[MeeposFire]

Spear and shield. Be a Spartan halfing.

Spears are not heavy so it does not help you with GWM which is what is really powerful on a barb.

Personally I like halfling barbs especially after playing in Eberron but until they give something for barbs that is better statistically small races are weaker due to not being able to use heavy weapons well (rather than the lack of a str boost which is minor issue that can be easily mitigated eventually).

I like using a long sword myself to be honest though a very stylized one.

[Naanomi]

Athasian cannibal halfling barbarians!

[Ardantis]

Yeah, his response is that it's realistic. I even tried to suggest Sentinel including immunity to flanking so that I'm not constantly getting wrecked, but to no avail. I may try to bring it up again.

On this tangent, I don't get it. He's clearly concerned about how fragile my Paladin is; he's already had to deus ex machina me from death once, because we were second level, I was super excited to be playing this character, and his setting doesn't have resurrection magic. But then I suggest things like "let's not play with flanking" or "look at this magic item that gives me advantage on death saving throws and doubles my healing from spending hit dice -- maybe you could throw that in a loot pile somewhere so I don't almost die every session?" and he does not really listen. It's gotten worse since we realized that they updated the OA rules and I'm not entitled to one unless an enemy leaves the area I threaten, and can move through it freely. It frustrates me, but overall it's a small gripe. I'm enjoying the game and like the people in the group too much to make a big stink over it.

You're the Philip Marlowe of DnD