this thread is about anthropomorphic whales now

[Windrammer]

discuss, i guess

[ZamielVanWeber]

How feat starved are you that Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knockdown are too much? Also if your race is not set in stone Anthropomorphic Bleep Whale into fighter 2 will give you EWP (Spiked Chain), the 3 tripping feats, and will let you into Wargulk for better tripping power with a 20 foot reach.

[OldTrees1]

5 feats in 15 levels? That is hard since most decent feats cost at least 1 prereq. What natural advantages does your race give(flight? reach? large size? draconic?)

1 feat
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still
Robilar's Gambit(probably don't get the BAB for this)
Flyby Attack

2 feats
Combat Expertise + Improved Trip
Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings
Aberrant Blood + Star Spawn
Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach
Willing Deformity + Deformity(Tall)

3 feats:
Power Attack + Improved Bullrush + Knockback
Martial Study + Martial Stance(Shadow Hand) + Staggering Strike
Dodge + Mobility + Elusive Target

[Windrammer]

How feat starved are you that Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knockdown are too much? Also if your race is not set in stone Anthropomorphic Bleep Whale into fighter 2 will give you EWP (Spiked Chain), the 3 tripping feats, and will let you into Wargulk for better tripping power with a 20 foot reach.

Well the problem with that is that I'd be an anthropomorphic whale using a spiked chain.

[Xerlith]

Well the problem with that is that I'd be an anthropomorphic whale using a spiked chain.

That's not a problem. That's the opposite of a problem.

[Rubik]

The best melee feats with minimal prereqs are from Magic of Incarnum (Shape Soulmeld) and Tome of Battle (Martial Study/Martial Stance).

[Windrammer]

That's not a problem. That's the opposite of a problem.

In some cases perhaps, but unfortunately this is for a roleplaying game.

[Greenish]

Anthropomorphic Bleep WhaleEither you're thinking of a different whale, or "baleen" has a slang meaning I'm not aware of.


In some cases perhaps, but unfortunately this is for a roleplaying game.And you could be roleplaying an anthropomorphic whale swinging a spiked chain right now.

[Rubik]

And you could be roleplaying an anthropomorphic whale swinging a spiked chain right now.You could always be a bardblade.

https://youtu.be/OY2-OBRnShg?t=221

[edit] Your spiked chain is actually an anchor attached to a mooring chain.

[Dread_Head]

And you could be roleplaying an anthropomorphic whale swinging a spiked chain right now.

Yeh, plenty of fun roleplaying could be had with this concept. A whale man wielding the anchor and chain he took from a pirate ship is a pretty badass roleplaying concept in my opinion.

[Windrammer]

Yeh, plenty of fun roleplaying could be had with this concept. A whale man wielding the anchor and chain he took from a pirate ship is a pretty badass roleplaying concept in my opinion.

Think of your favorite fantasy film. Can you imagine an anthropomorphic baleen whale there?

[Rubik]

Think of your favorite fantasy film. Can you imagine an anthropomorphic baleen whale there?It'd be a hell of a lot more useful than 3/4 of the hobbits were.

Or Ronald Weasley. Of course, an actual weasel would be more useful than he was. Con drain against one's enemies is a lot more helpful than Int drain against one's allies.

[Solaris]

As much fun as it is to annoy Windrammer, I gotta agree with him. I don't think an anthro-whale would be very much fun to play as, either. It's kinda lame, actually, once the fifteen seconds of comedy in "lolwhaleman!" wears off.

[Windrammer]

It'd be a hell of a lot more useful than 3/4 of the hobbits were.

Or Ronald Weasley. Of course, an actual weasel would be more useful than he was. Con drain against one's enemies is a lot more helpful than Int drain against one's allies.

Oh no doubt it would be useful. Most DnD characters would have a field day in most fantasy universes.

But there's the issue of there being a f***ing whale there, a walking, talking whale with hands and feet, using a spiked chain. This is beginning to remind me of the memory parasites from Rick and Morty.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNUFRIkaFzw

I mean if that's what you guys like your DnD campaigns looking like then that's fine, but it's bizarre to assume that anyone else would be into it.

[Rubik]

Oh no doubt it would be useful. Most DnD characters would have a field day in most fantasy universes.

But there's the issue of there being a f***ing whale there, a walking, talking whale with hands and feet, using a spiked chain. This is beginning to remind me of the memory parasites from Rick and Morty.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNUFRIkaFzw

I mean if that's what you guys like your DnD campaigns looking like then that's fine, but it's bizarre to assume that anyone else would be into it.Redwall? How about Labyrinth? TMNT? The Neverending Story?

[Anlashok]

Oh no doubt it would be useful. Most DnD characters would have a field day in most fantasy universes.

But there's the issue of there being a f***ing whale there, a walking, talking whale with hands and feet, using a spiked chain. This is beginning to remind me of the memory parasites from Rick and Morty.



I mean if that's what you guys like your DnD campaigns looking like then that's fine, but it's bizarre to assume that anyone else would be into it.
You could have, y'know, just said you didn't want to play a race instead of throwing a fit about it and changing your thread title and being all passive aggressive and whiny. It's pretty, well, bizarre, to use your words.

[ComaVision]

OP, you seem stressed, I recommend looking up a video of whale sounds on YouTube to help you calm down :smallsmile:

[Windrammer]

Redwall? How about Labyrinth? TMNT? The Neverending Story?

Redwall and TMNT revolve around those characters, and the latter isn't even fantasy. Is TMNT really what you shoot for when you play DnD?

I mean you can play the system however you want, but as a general rule you should assume people are shooting for immersive heroic fantasy, not goofy hijinks with talking animals. Redwall is a good example of what I'm getting at: In a setting that is EXCLUSIVELY anthropomorphic animals, anthropomorphic animals work perfectly. But in the standard fantasy setting that the vast majority of DnD games are played in, a sentient landwhaleman is a bit disruptive to say the least.

[OldTrees1]

Redwall? How about Labyrinth? TMNT? The Neverending Story?

Could you imagine an Anthropomorphic whale in Redwall? How about Labyrinth? TMNT? The Neverending Story?

Redwall? A talking one maybe(even then it seems out of place) as a one time NPC.
Labyrinth? Uh, no. Whales are not Fey, why would they being in Labyrinth.
TMNT? Not really. All the anthros in there had base forms that readily adapted to the upright biped. Whales not so much.
The Neverending Story? Sure. That was a bunch of weird stuff. Although it would have to be somewhere that makes sense in that world.

Different Anthros fit in different numbers of stories.

[Solaris]

You could have, y'know, just said you didn't want to play a race instead of throwing a fit about it and changing your thread title and being all passive aggressive and whiny. It's pretty, well, bizarre, to use your words.

He did say that. People continued to press the whale rather than providing any useful information.

I know it's fun to be a ****, but don't get self-righteous about it while you're at it.

[Windrammer]

You could have, y'know, just said you didn't want to play a race instead of throwing a fit about it and changing your thread title and being all passive aggressive and whiny. It's pretty, well, bizarre, to use your words.

Well the discussion we're having isn't me trying to convince people I don't like a race. I talk aggressively but I'm not actually mad at anyone, I just don't like the general attitude of cavalier, immersion shattering optimization that floats around here. In any case, it's just a conversation. I know people are pulling my chain and I'm just happy to respond anyways, it's a win-win and if you don't want to be a part of it that's fine. Just don't call me passive aggressive and whiny, that's really not what's going on here.

[Rubik]

OP, you seem stressed, I recommend looking up a video of whale sounds on YouTube to help you calm down :smallsmile:Ha!


Redwall and TMNT revolve around those characters, and the latter isn't even fantasy.There's a lot of magic in the TMNT comics, and even some in the various cartoon series. TMNT is very much fantasy, albeit with sci-fi overtones.


Is TMNT really what you shoot for when you play DnD?Sometimes, yes. It's frequently very much heroic fantasy, albeit often quite silly. Sometimes, not so silly.


I mean you can play the system however you want, but as a general rule you should assume people are shooting for immersive heroic fantasy, not goofy hijinks with talking animals. Redwall is a good example of what I'm getting at: In a setting that is EXCLUSIVELY anthropomorphic animals, anthropomorphic animals work perfectly. But in the standard fantasy setting that the vast majority of DnD games are played in, a sentient landwhaleman is a bit disruptive to say the least.It would do well enough in a swashbuckling seagoing campaign, and it wouldn't even have to be silly. Captain of a pirate ship filled with misfit toys creatures who have banded together to earn some legendary notoriety? That sounds fine to me.


Could you imagine an Anthropomorphic whale in Redwall? How about Labyrinth? TMNT? The Neverending Story?

Redwall? A talking one maybe(even then it seems out of place) as a one time NPC.
Labyrinth? Uh, no. Whales are not Fey, why would they being in Labyrinth.
TMNT? Not really. All the anthros in there had base forms that readily adapted to the upright biped. Whales not so much.
The Neverending Story? Sure. That was a bunch of weird stuff. Although it would have to be somewhere that makes sense in that world.

Different Anthros fit in different numbers of stories.Think of him more like the pirate captain from Curse of the Black Pearl. Not quite so silly as all that, huh?

Honestly, it's all in how you play him.

[Anlashok]

He did say that. People continued to press the whale rather than providing any useful information.

I know it's fun to be a ****, but don't get self-righteous about it while you're at it.

Not really. He made a snarky comment and then mocked people for liking a thing he didn't. Pretty far cry from "Hey I don't want to play that race do you have any other suggestions".

In fact it really didn't become the focus of the thread until he kept bringing it up.


I just don't like the general attitude of cavalier, immersion shattering optimization that floats around here.

"I don't like it" != "immersion shattering". Some people have much less fragile and limited scopes for what they consider interesting fantasy stories and some people don't. That's fine, but if anyone is being obnoxiously self righteous here...

[Rubik]

If you want an anthropomorphic whale that looks pretty badass and can be taken seriously?

Check it. (http://orig14.deviantart.net/3099/f/2011/206/c/3/orca_by_bitrubio_611-d3fjf1h.jpg)

[Solaris]

Not really. He made a snarky comment and then mocked people for liking a thing he didn't. Pretty far cry from "Hey I don't want to play that race do you have any other suggestions".

In fact it really didn't become the focus of the thread until he kept bringing it up.

Fun fact about human communication: People will very rarely directly say "No." If you genuinely parse that snarky comment as anything but a negation, that makes you the only one in this thread to do so.

I can't tell whether you're reading a different thread or outright lying, because the evidence that gives lie to your statements is plainly written in this thread. Either way, I'm done with you.



If you want an anthropomorphic whale that looks pretty badass and can be taken seriously?

Check it. (http://orig14.deviantart.net/3099/f/2011/206/c/3/orca_by_bitrubio_611-d3fjf1h.jpg)

I can definitely see that working in an aquatic or semi-aquatic campaign, but it's kind of a fish out of water anywhere else.

[Know(Nothing)]

If you like the stats of the whale but find it ridiculous to play one, check with your DM if you can reflavor the race. I've DM'd plenty of games where people wanted the benefits of one of those races, but my world doesn't have animal-people(barring a couple exceptions), so I let them skin it however they want.

[OldTrees1]

Think of him more like the pirate captain from Curse of the Black Pearl. Not quite so silly as all that, huh?

Honestly, it's all in how you play him.

Well, a nautical adventure certainly makes it easier to incorporate aquatic anthros, but even Davy Jones is not full Octopus Anthro. They added in the Claws hands, Human arms/legs/feet to make him closer to the human form without looking out of place. Octodad's anatomy would not have worked as well in the Pirates of the Caribbean setting.


Check it (http://orig14.deviantart.net/3099/f/2011/206/c/3/orca_by_bitrubio_611-d3fjf1h.jpg)
However this does a decent job of a Dolphin Anthro(I know it was meant as an Orca whale but please give body:limbs ratios some meaning).

[Rubik]

However this does a decent job of a Dolphin Anthro(I know it was meant as an Orca whale but please give body:limbs ratios some meaning).Well, orcas are a type of dolphin, so your comment isn't at all out of place.

I just don't get why playing an anthropomorphic animal (whale or otherwise) "breaks immersion." I have had a number of very seriously played characters that were anthropomorphic animals, and they fit rather well with the campaigns I played in. Whales are powerful, majestic, and beautiful creatures, capable of grace and astonishing violence both, and I don't see why they have to be "joke" characters.

[smcmike]

If you want an anthropomorphic whale that looks pretty badass and can be taken seriously?

Check it. (http://orig14.deviantart.net/3099/f/2011/206/c/3/orca_by_bitrubio_611-d3fjf1h.jpg)

I was down with the anthropomorphic whales until I saw this. Nope.

[Blackhawk748]

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/8/86/Nautilus_AbyssalSkin.jpg/revision/latest/zoom-crop/width/613/height/460?cb=20120214102358

Do we do immersion breaking Optimization here? On occasion. Usually we just give you a build and let you figure out how it works in your world. That being said an Anthro Whale is not automatically Immersion Breaking. I mean we have floating heads with one eye (Beholders) men with squid heads (Mind Flayers) cat people (cat folk) humans who should be crushed under their own weight (Giants) talking cat lizards (Dragons) and a long list of other weird things. Honestly the only reason an Anthro Whale sounds weird is because you are probably picturing this:

http://orig07.deviantart.net/1b95/f/2009/297/0/5/laughing_orca_by_keaze.jpg

When you could totally be this:

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130220165740/skylanders/images/3/36/Thumpback_-_.jpg

The second picture seems far more fitting in DnD, ya its weird, but so is playing a Wolfman.

[Rubik]

I was down with the anthropomorphic whales until I saw this. Nope.He took Talya's Vow of Nudity feat.

[OldTrees1]

Well, orcas are a type of dolphin, so your comment isn't at all out of place.

I just don't get why playing an anthropomorphic animal (whale or otherwise) "breaks immersion." I have had a number of very seriously played characters that were anthropomorphic animals, and they fit rather well with the campaigns I played in. Whales are powerful, majestic, and beautiful creatures, capable of grace and astonishing violence both, and I don't see why they have to be "joke" characters.

I thought Orca was the alternate name for Killer Whales? Are Killer Whales a type of Dolphin? I am confused.

I don't think a gnoll(anthropomorphic hyena) breaks immersion. However some animal forms are such that to twist and distort their body into a 2 armed biped while maximizing fidelity to the original form results in some strange creatures. Take that picture you linked but enforce conservation of body size:limb size ratio. Now consider if it was a Blue Whale. You would end up with a biped with regular legs but tiny arms.

So I consider it established that
1) The weirdness of a resulting creature is dependent on the distance between the initial form and the mold it is being squeezed into.
2) The about of Weirdness required to break someone's immersion varies from person to person.

[Deadline]

Well, a nautical adventure certainly makes it easier to incorporate aquatic anthros, but even Davy Jones is not full Octopus Anthro. They added in the Claws hands, Human arms/legs/feet to make him closer to the human form without looking out of place. Octodad's anatomy would not have worked as well in the Pirates of the Caribbean setting.

Well, there's nothing about Davy Jones' design that indicates that it couldn't make tentacle attacks (especially given his similarity to the iconic Mindflayer), so I'm not sure why he couldn't be represented by a D&D anthro-octopus. Also:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/pirates/images/d/d2/Maccus_head.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20080416035029

It's worth noting the other members of his crew. And as already mentioned, races are made up of two parts - stats and fluff. The fluff is incredibly mutable, and can represent pretty much whatever you want. There's not really all that big a mechanical gap between an anthro-baleen and, say, a half-ogre.


Fun fact about human communication: People will very rarely directly say "No." If you genuinely parse that snarky comment as anything but a negation, that makes you the only one in this thread to do so.

For what it's worth, I didn't parse that comment as a negation either. I also don't see why "immersive heroic fantasy" can't include any given race, but that strikes me more as a matter of opinion, so I won't get into that.


Now consider if it was a Blue Whale. You would end up with a biped with regular legs but tiny arms.

You mean something like this?

http://pre00.deviantart.net/8d43/th/pre/f/2012/288/6/5/fantasy_redesigned_krogan___mass_effect_by_fontear t-d5hvk4q.jpg

[Nifft]

Wow.

I mean, just wow.

That was brutal.

I hope you all got XP for killing that poor guy's interest in his own thread.

[Rubik]

I thought Orca was the alternate name for Killer Whales? Are Killer Whales a type of Dolphin? I am confused.Killer whales are orcas, and vice versa. They're also a type of dolphin. They also eat other types of dolphin, but that just makes them more badass.


I don't think a gnoll(anthropomorphic hyena) breaks immersion. However some animal forms are such that to twist and distort their body into a 2 armed biped while maximizing fidelity to the original form results in some strange creatures. Take that picture you linked but enforce conservation of body size:limb size ratio. Now consider if it was a Blue Whale. You would end up with a biped with regular legs but tiny arms.But altering them to be anthropomorphic (as with what happens to a wolf when making a lycanthrope) often means you still have a basically human-proportioned body, even though the original animal wasn't. I mean, wolves don't have muscular arms and legs; almost all of their muscle is in their core, with very little in their limbs. But a human torso with limbs like that would just look stupid.

[OldTrees1]

Well, there's nothing about Davy Jones' design that indicates that it couldn't make tentacle attacks (especially given his similarity to the iconic Mindflayer), so I'm not sure why he couldn't be represented by a D&D anthro-octopus. Also:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/pirates/images/d/d2/Maccus_head.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20080416035029

It's worth noting the other members of his crew. And as already mentioned, races are made up of two parts - stats and fluff. The fluff is incredibly mutable, and can represent pretty much whatever you want. There's not really all that big a mechanical gap between an anthro-baleen and, say, a half-ogre.

1) Mindflayer bodies can be physically represented by the Anthro Octopus stat block but that does not change the fact that their body is far from the form of a Anthropomorphic Octopus.
2) I point you to my points about anatomy and will let you derive whether I agree or disagree with respect to Maccus. Maccus has good retention of body:limbs ratio & that ratio looks reasonable in the 2 armed biped model.

[Solaris]

For what it's worth, I didn't parse that comment as a negation either. I also don't see why "immersive heroic fantasy" can't include any given race, but that strikes me more as a matter of opinion, so I won't get into that.


Well the problem with that is that I'd be an anthropomorphic whale using a spiked chain.

How is that not a negation? I'm not trying to be combative, I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not trying to say that anyone's right or wrong in liking something - only in trying to tell someone that they ought to like something, and then in trying to push something he didn't want to do.

[OldTrees1]

@Solaris
Thank you for trying to teach the lesson you are trying to teach. Looks like you are doing a much better job than I could.



Killer whales are orcas, and vice versa. They're also a type of dolphin. They also eat other types of dolphin, but that just makes them more badass.

But altering them to be anthropomorphic (as with what happens to a wolf when making a lycanthrope) often means you still have a basically human-proportioned body, even though the original animal wasn't. I mean, wolves don't have muscular arms and legs; almost all of their muscle is in their core, with very little in their limbs. But a human torso with limbs like that would just look stupid.

Neat, thanks for the correction!

Each thing you take away from the base form adds strain on suspension of disbelief. While removing the body:limb ratio does make these specific anthros look more reasonable like other anthros, it does so by adding strain.

Since you did not respond to the part about variation from player to player, I think we are in agreement yes?

[Deadline]

1) Mindflayer bodies can be physically represented by the Anthro Octopus stat block but that does not change the fact that their body is far from the form of a Anthropomorphic Octopus.

I guess I'm going to have to ask you what you think an anthropomorphic octopus should look like then. Because I have to admit that my experience in the area (i.e. images of anthropomorphic octopi) is woefully inadequate. When you have creatures whose sole existence is "a wizard did it" (glowers at the owlbear), I don't see how Davy Jones couldn't easily be such a representation.


2) I point you to my points about anatomy and will let you derive whether I agree or disagree with respect to Maccus. Maccus has good retention of body:limbs ratio & that ratio looks reasonable in the 2 armed biped model.

Ah, didn't see the white text. So I'm assuming you see Maccus as a decent representation of an anthro-hammerhead shark?

Edit:


How is that not a negation? I'm not trying to be combative, I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not trying to say that anyone's right or wrong in liking something - only in trying to tell someone that they ought to like something, and then in trying to push something he didn't want to do.

I can read it three ways without even taking the time to think about it (humor, request for help, negation). The written word holds none of the body language cues necessary to interpret meaning from an ambiguous phrase (we instead have to rely on context, which at that time I didn't have). In fact, Windrammer's meaning didn't become clear to me until post #14 on this thread (the use of an expletive at that point indicating, at least to me, frustration, which then meant that his earlier statement pretty much had to be a negation). Such is the difficulty in attempting to use veiled language and snark to convey a specific meaning.

As far as pushing a viewpoint, there have been several pushed here, not just the dislike of anthro-whales.

Edit part deux:

To clarify my earlier statement, my first take on Windrammer's comment was as a request for help (i.e. Baleen whale is probably a DM veto, but really any large size critter could work), then I switched to humor with the following posts until #14.

[Rubik]

Neat, thanks for the correction!Animals can be seriously awesome. I've always enjoyed learning about them. If only the Discovery Channel actually played the awesome documentaries these days. The last time I watched it, it was all "real life rescues."

I weep for the future of humanity's entertainment.


Each thing you take away from the base form adds strain on suspension of disbelief. While removing the body:limb ratio does make these specific anthros look more reasonable like other anthros, it does so by adding strain.I don't really see why. So long as it's an amalgamation of human and animal, it's still a theriomorph/anthropomorphic animal. Even a catgirl is, technically, as is a talking wolf with hand-like paws and wings (http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/chessgame-of-the-gods/images/d/db/Winged-Wolf-wolves-27723501-300-292.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130524073233). It's all just a sliding scale of human-to-animal, with any given anthro falling somewhere on the scale.

It's all fantastic regardless; suspension of disbelief never comes into it until the tone you play it with clashes with the rest of the campaign.


Since you did not respond to the part about variation from player to player, I think we are in agreement yes?Aye.

[Threadnaught]

In some cases perhaps, but unfortunately this is for a roleplaying game.

One of my players is playing a feral half-mammoth mutant thing, another is playing a pixie and the other is just basic Humans. There's a Domovoi, a Thri-kreen and several other mutant monstrosities on the horizon, including an Unbodied telepath.
The half-mammoth is played well enough, the Pixie is played better than anything I've ever seen before as a DM, the Thri-kreen, Domovoi and Unbodied all have an interesting personality in concept. We'll see how it goes.

There's nothing players cannot role play. Not even weird mutant whale men.


Either you're thinking of a different whale, or "baleen" has a slang meaning I'm not aware of.

Sperm whale (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/whale.htm#cachalotWhale)?

Damn that's a scary image, they're like the Hippos of the ocean.

[OldTrees1]

Ah, didn't see the white text. So I'm assuming you see Maccus as a decent representation of an anthro-hammerhead shark?

Maccus is a good representation of an anthro-hammerhead shark. What makes him a good representation is how much of the original hammerhead form is still evident(relative to his shipmates) while still having as(or a more) humanoid a form than those same shipmates. The good design is one of the reasons(there are others) why Maccus is so memorable.


@Rubik
I mourn the death of Discovery and History channels (IIRC even Nat Geo went downhill).
At least we got Mythbusters.

[Rubik]

I was down with the anthropomorphic whales until I saw this. Nope.Elucidate.

[Windrammer]

OP, you seem stressed, I recommend looking up a video of whale sounds on YouTube to help you calm down :smallsmile:

lol savage

[Windrammer]

Wow.

I mean, just wow.

That was brutal.

I hope you all got XP for killing that poor guy's interest in his own thread.

Actually I figured out what I needed while the thread was going and decided to have it be about anthropomorphic whales. Was my own doing more than anything :smallsmile:

[Rubik]

Actually I figured out what I needed while the thread was going and decided to have it be about anthropomorphic whales. Was my own doing more than anything :smallsmile:What did you end up with?

[Blackhawk748]

What did you end up with?

Im curious too as i have no clue what he original goal was.

[smcmike]

Elucidate.

There is no accounting for taste. I generally do not like character portraits that are sincerely trying to look cool.

[Rubik]

There is no accounting for taste. I generally do not like character portraits that are sincerely trying to look cool.Well, he does look powerful and somewhat intimidating. A lot better as a "serious character" than what the OP apparently thinks of when the words "anthropomorphic whale" come up.

[smcmike]

Well, he does look powerful and somewhat intimidating. A lot better as a "serious character" than what the OP apparently thinks of when the words "anthropomorphic whale" come up.

Yeah, I legitimately prefer this guy:

http://keaze.deviantart.com/art/Anthropomorphic-humpback-whale-141083489

If I am playing an anthropomorphic whale, I am not attempting seriousness. Also, that whale seems to be attempting sex appeal. Nope.

[Rubik]

Yeah, I legitimately prefer this guy:

http://keaze.deviantart.com/art/Anthropomorphic-humpback-whale-141083489

If I am playing an anthropomorphic whale, I am not attempting seriousness. Also, that whale seems to be attempting sex appeal. Nope.Yours has a slightly dopey grin on his face, but that doesn't make him any more or less serious (as a character idea) than mine. Maybe the character is just a bit more laid-back about things. Less NE and more CG, maybe?

[Threadnaught]

Think of your favorite fantasy film. Can you imagine an anthropomorphic baleen whale there?

Actually missed this bit, somehow.

Lord of the Rings films? Like an aquatic version of LotR movie Trolls.
Harry Potter? There are other weird magical creatures.
Star Wars? Mon Calamari and Quarren are Anthropomorphic Squid, your argument is invalid.
Frozen? Not really, unless it was made of snow/ice.
Treasure Planet? Hell yeah, that would've been super badass.
Monsters Inc.? C'mon, I think there actually is one in that film.


This breaks your willful suspension of disbelief and that's okay, but such a creature wouldn't look out of place to me in many things I like. I guess I just picture it differently to you.


Actually I figured out what I needed while the thread was going and decided to have it be about anthropomorphic whales. Was my own doing more than anything :smallsmile:

Pray tell, what did you decide to go with ser Ahab?

[ranagrande]

I actually played an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale in a game once. He was an experiment that escaped from an arcane laboratory and became a Frenzied Berserker.

[Blackhawk748]

I actually played an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale in a game once. He was an experiment that escaped from an arcane laboratory and became a Frenzied Berserker.

That is terrifying.

[SangoProduction]

Anthropomorphic whale? Go lawful evil and carry a harpoon. Hunt all whale hunters.

[Windrammer]

What did you end up with?

Knowledge Devotion, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and ultimately Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I'm playing a savage species Ghaele and this feat path actually suits the character and campaign perfectly.

[Windrammer]

Actually missed this bit, somehow.

Lord of the Rings films? Like an aquatic version of LotR movie Trolls.
Harry Potter? There are other weird magical creatures.
Star Wars? Mon Calamari and Quarren are Anthropomorphic Squid, your argument is invalid.
Frozen? Not really, unless it was made of snow/ice.
Treasure Planet? Hell yeah, that would've been super badass.
Monsters Inc.? C'mon, I think there actually is one in that film.


This breaks your willful suspension of disbelief and that's okay, but such a creature wouldn't look out of place to me in many things I like. I guess I just picture it differently to you.

That wasn't a very compelling rebuttal. Not sure what you meant about Lord of the Rings but it's hard to imagine what could possibly justify an anthropomorphic whale in that film.

Harry Potter: Indeed there are weird magical creatures. There are weird magical creatures, and there are anthropomorphic whales. If you think one would fit in Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings then I can't help but feel that you're not investing much effort into imagining what that would actually be like.

Star Wars... No. The fundamental issue here is that an anthropomorphic is simply implausible in appearance in a way that other weird variants of the humanoid form aren't. As in, cartoonish and unnatural. The moment it looks plausible is the moment it stops bearing connection to whales. And there's the whole issue of making a character specifically analogous to an animal on earth, that's weird in an alien and disconnected universe like that of Star Wars.

Treasure Planet and Monsters Inc... What do they have to do with this? Anthropomorphic whales would also work in a number of children's films and TV shows, but we're not talking about their role in the entire world of fiction. I'm talking about Fantasy as DnD was designed for. Don't see any dungeons, dragons, or anything remotely medieval or reminiscient of in Monsters Inc.

[Blackhawk748]

That wasn't a very compelling rebuttal. Not sure what you meant about Lord of the Rings but it's hard to imagine what could possibly justify an anthropomorphic whale in that film.

Harry Potter: Indeed there are weird magical creatures. There are weird magical creatures, and there are anthropomorphic whales. If you think one would fit in Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings then I can't help but feel that you're not investing much effort into imagining what that would actually be like.

Star Wars... No. The fundamental issue here is that an anthropomorphic is simply implausible in appearance in a way that other weird variants of the humanoid form aren't. As in, cartoonish and unnatural. The moment it looks plausible is the moment it stops bearing connection to whales. And there's the whole issue of making a character specifically analogous to an animal on earth, that's weird in an alien and disconnected universe like that of Star Wars.

Treasure Planet and Monsters Inc... What do they have to do with this? Anthropomorphic whales would also work in a number of children's films and TV shows, but we're not talking about their role in the entire world of fiction. I'm talking about Fantasy as DnD was designed for. Don't see any dungeons, dragons, or anything remotely medieval or reminiscient of in Monsters Inc.

I think you have to narrow an image for what an Anthro Whale would look like. This i could totally see in Star Wars:

http://orig04.deviantart.net/7db6/f/2009/295/2/3/anthropomorphic_humpback_whale_by_keaze.jpg

You're probably envisioning this:
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071211220715/spongebob/images/f/f7/Don.JPG

Neither are wrong, one is just far more cartoony than the other.

[Rubik]

That wasn't a very compelling rebuttal. Not sure what you meant about Lord of the Rings but it's hard to imagine what could possibly justify an anthropomorphic whale in that film.

Harry Potter: Indeed there are weird magical creatures. There are weird magical creatures, and there are anthropomorphic whales. If you think one would fit in Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings then I can't help but feel that you're not investing much effort into imagining what that would actually be like.

Star Wars... No. The fundamental issue here is that an anthropomorphic is simply implausible in appearance in a way that other weird variants of the humanoid form aren't. As in, cartoonish and unnatural. The moment it looks plausible is the moment it stops bearing connection to whales. And there's the whole issue of making a character specifically analogous to an animal on earth, that's weird in an alien and disconnected universe like that of Star Wars.We've already had a few pictures that could easily fit into Star Wars or a great many other fantasy worlds. It's not hard to imagine the ones smcmike and I found fitting into a fantasy story, for instance.


Treasure Planet and Monsters Inc... What do they have to do with this? Anthropomorphic whales would also work in a number of children's films and TV shows, but we're not talking about their role in the entire world of fiction. I'm talking about Fantasy as DnD was designed for. Don't see any dungeons, dragons, or anything remotely medieval or reminiscient of in Monsters Inc.Fantasy does not only equal archetypical, Underdark-delving, dungeoncrawling D&D. Fantasy is such a ridiculously broad category that it defies even having boundaries. And D&D can encompass a great deal of it, depending on what story the DM and players want to tell.

I could easily see an anthropomorphic whale character popping up in Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, for instance, or Okami, or any number of other fantasy-based games, all of which can be used as a basis for a D&D campaign. So long as there's water in at least some quantity, a character with a semi-aquatic anthropomorphic character is justifiable.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I honestly didn't mean to derail the thread. I like anthro whale because:
1: It's visually cool. I am a massive man whale wielding a massive chain. Also monsters tend to lend themselves to much more interesting backstories in my opinion.
2: It is strong without being overwhelming.
3: Allies love having an effective tripper.

[Rubik]

1: It's visually cool. I am a massive man whale wielding a massive chain. Also monsters tend to lend themselves to much more interesting backstories in my opinion.Yeah. I have no trouble visualizing something that would fit well in any game that is more than "humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, and gnomes only." Any campaign that contains more than "humans without serial numbers" could easily fit one in.

Note that there are anthropomorphic sharks in here, too, which only need a little tweaking to look more whale-like.

http://orig03.deviantart.net/23a1/f/2012/002/8/f/the_warrior_from_the_great_sea_of_mists_by_ohblon-d4l1a8b.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e7/df/ff/e7dfffb491f4b3a1db8c2aa96bba53c2.jpg

https://36.media.tumblr.com/de839dc6d35dbcc471b37d4912a8c4bd/tumblr_n8fq74sB951su5akfo1_500.jpg

http://pre00.deviantart.net/61f9/th/pre/i/2015/143/b/f/shark_warrior_by_slavafromrussia-d8uedv0.png

http://static.tumblr.com/67d09a63ea0e8be70497feac49d3e279/j085ucv/Du3mmvqwd/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_velmont_1_.jpg

http://img10.deviantart.net/0ef1/i/2010/334/f/7/killer_whale_colored_by_wsache007-d33xkh0.jpg

http://orig10.deviantart.net/229e/f/2013/164/c/7/big_whale_by_whitejelly-d68ujiq.png

http://orig04.deviantart.net/cc5a/f/2012/184/d/e/alaskan_whale_by_meeshi-d55w8r3.png

http://img01.deviantart.net/f625/i/2009/272/9/3/marco_the_shark_by_dragonman32.jpg

And so on. Seriously, I don't see the problem.

[squiggit]

I think it might be interesting to figure out what makes certain beastmen acceptable and others not. I've never heard anyone call gnolls immersion breaking or too ridiculous even though "evil tribal anthropomorphic hyenas that worship demons as a stock baddie race" sounds pretty damn silly and weird on its face. Ditto with, say, lizardmen and werewolves and to a lesser extent (because they're not as prominent, but still never seemed them quibbled over) things like dragonborn and catfolk.


edit: Apparently rubik is your guy if you need pictures of whales.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well that was drool worthy...

[Darrin]

Original Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16756072&postcount=44).

Here's something I'm thinking about adding to the "Builds" section, inspired mostly by GhenghisConrad's attempts to create the Ultimate Death From Above Battle Jump MurderPouncer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323832) and Sinfire Titan's old chestnut 4500 lbs of stupid (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/ 75882/19863510/4500_lbs._of_Stupid?pg=1).

Note: This build assumes two things that are probably not strictly RAW. 1) Anthropomorphic baleen whales can be raised in the Taer region and thus take a regional feat restricted to that region, and 2) any action that results in falling on top of your opponent can be turned into a full-round charge. Curmudgeon has already expressed his doubts about #2.

So... let's say we want to use Battle Jump + Shadow Jaunt/Shadow Stride/Shadow Blink to teleport above our opponent three times in a round, full attack them on the way down, crush them with no-save falling object damage, and then bull rush them into the ground with Knockback + Dungeon Crasher. Can we get everything into the same build? I think so:

Let's start with anthropomorphic baleen whale: 3 HD of monstrous humanoid, large size, Str +8, tail slap, and blindsight 120'. The only problem here is I have no idea what such a creature's weight would be... presumably somewhere between 250 lbs (half-ogre from Races of Destiny) and 600 lbs (full ogre from MM). Preferably we want to be at least 500 lbs, so that if we use expansion to become huge, our weight goes up to 4000 lbs, which maxes out our falling object damage at 20d6. Eh... call it maybe 350-400 lbs and our armor/weapons/equipment should take care of the rest.

My first run-through produced Whale 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Swordsage 10, which works out fairly well: BAB +17 and IL 15 at ECL 20. But then I thought, well, can I do this with Warblade and just take Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink with Martial Study, which lets me use the Warblade refresh mechanic? And yes, that sorta works, except I was a feat short, so I had to replace two Warblade levels with Ranger 2, and this dropped my IL too low to pick up Shadow Blink at ECL 18, so I had to finish off with Legacy Champion: Whale 3/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 2/Fighter +4/Legacy Champion +4. But there was still a piece missing (no expansion), and replacing Ranger 2 with Psychich Warrior 2 gets me another feat. So... I present to you:

Thumpback
Race: Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale
1) Whale 1. Feat: Battle Jump.
2) Whale 2.
3) Whale 3. Feat: Power Attack.
4) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy ACF.
5) Fighter 1. Bonus: TWF.
6) Fighter 2. Feat: Improved TWF. Dungeon Crasher 1.
7) PsyWar 1. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
8) PsyWar 2. Bonus: Knockback.
9) Warblade 1. Feat: Martial Study->Shadow Jaunt.
10) Warblade 2. IL6
11) Legacy Champion 1.
12) Legacy Champion 2. Feat: Practiced Manifester*. [IL8.0]
13) Fighter 3. [IL8.5]
14) Fighter 4. Bonus: Greater TWF. [IL9.0]
15) Fighter 5. Feat: Martial Study->Shadow Stride. [IL9.5]
16) Fighter 6. Dungeon Crasher 2. [IL10.0]
17) Legacy Champion 3. [IL11.5]
18) Legacy Champion 4. Feat: Martial Study->Shadow Blink. [IL13]
19) Legacy Champion 5. [IL14.5]
20) Legacy Champion 6. BAB +17, [IL16.0]

* = This could be Shock Trooper instead, but a higher ML lets you augment expansion for a better duration. If you finish off Legacy Champion 5/6 by advancing Psychic Warrior, your ML = 8, and this is high enough to augment up to gargantuan size or activate it as a swift action.

But wait, you say, your DM won't allow Battle Jump because there are no anthropomorphic baleen whales in the Taer region? (Shyeah right... since when did anything "not belong" in the Forgotten Realms?) Well, there's another feat in Cityscape called Roof-Jumper that does nearly the same thing as Battle Jump, but instead of 2x damage you get 1d6 damage per 10' fallen. Unfortunately it requires three nearly useless prereqs: the dreaded Dodge, it's annoying sidekick Mobility, and the uninspiring Roofwalker. If we swap Swordsage in for Warblade, we get three feats back, so we can juggle some feats around and sort of make it work... except we need to give up Practiced Manifester for Adaptive Style, because otherwise it takes three full-round actions to refresh our maneuvers.

Anyway... I think the Whale 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/PsyWar 2/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 2/Fighter +4/Legacy Champion +4 does nearly everything I want it to do. Assuming Thumpback has already expanded to huge:

"The Triple Lindy"

Round 1:
1) Standard Action, Shadow Jaunt 20' above opponent. Pounce for full attack, Power Attack for -2.
2) Each attack that hits causes a Bull Rush check with at least a +12 bonus (+8 for huge, +4 from Knockback) on top of whatever your Str bonus is now.
3) Each bull rush into the ground causes 8d6 bludgeoning damage from Dungeon Crasher.
4) Assuming body + equipment is at least 4000 lbs, your opponent takes 20d6 falling object damage. Core rules don't allow a save, but the Aerial Bombardment rules in Heroes of Battle (pp. 67-68) may be used to give your opponent a Ref save DC 15 to avoid.
5) Use the catfeet power or Landing armor property (+4000 GP, MIC) to negate our own falling damage and land on our feet.
6) Resolve the stacking issue as an unavoidable Overrun attempt: Str check vs. opponent's Str or Dex, whichever is higher. If you succeed, opponent is knocked prone while you remain standing. If you fail, you fall prone in opponent's square(s).
7) Move action, repeat steps 1-6.
8) Swift action, repeat steps 1-6.

Round 2:
1) Full attack + swift action to refresh maneuvers, or stand up (move) + standard attack + swift action to refresh.

Round 3:
1) Goto Round 1, repeat.

[EDIT] Problem... can't Power Attack with a light offhand weapon. Improved Unarmed Strike, Oversize TWF, or EWP Dragonsplit fixes that, but then there's no room for Practiced Manifester. Well, Fanged Ring, Ring of Might, or Bracers of Striking fix that. Or dip Battle Dancer 1 at ECL 19/20. So maybe not so much a problem.

Quickie Monster Class for Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale:
1) 1d8, BAB +1, F+0 R+2 W+2, Str +2, Con +2, NA +3, medium size, speed 30', swim 40', darkvision 60'
2) 2d8, BAB +2, F+0 R+3 W+3, Str +4 Dex +2 Con +2 Wis +2, NA +6
3) 3d8, BAB +3, F+1 R+3 W+3, Str +8, Dex +4 Con +4 Wis +4, NA +9, large size

Any thoughts/comments?
[/QUOTE]



Original Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18984751&postcount=25).

Thumpelina

Race: Dragonborn Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale
Build Stub: Anthro Whale 3/Simple Ranger 1/Monk 2/PsyWar 2/Drunken Master 2/Totemist 2/Monk +1
Ability Scores: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Ability Scores (Post-Dragonborn): Str 22, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Ability Scores (Expansion): Str 24, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Ability Increases: Wis 21 (4th), Wis 22 (8th), Wis 23 (12th)
Languages: Common, Aquan
Alignment: LN
Multiclass Penalty: No.


A southwesterly wind pushed the airship over a thick forest, mottled into dark patches by scattered cloudcover. The quartermaster paced across the quarterdeck, waiting for the watchman to call the hour and end his shift. The shift had been quiet and uneventful, and yet... he kept finding himself looking up, searching the clouds for... something. He wasn't quite sure what he was looking for.

A hatch opened on the deck below, but it wasn't the watchman he was expecting. Three angry crewmen spilled onto the deck, yelling and shoving each other. The quartermaster turned sharply and strode toward the center rail, stamping his boots in agitation to let the men know he was still on deck.

"Just a fancy! Just a fancy, is all!" protested one of the men, an older sailor with a salt-and-pepper beard and a green cap.

"Tell 'im!" shouted another man, a bald and well-rounded cook. "Tell 'im what yer saw!"

"Lay off! I ain't sauced, an' it warn't nothin'," said the third man, thin and sallow-faced with coal-black hair.

The quartermaster gripped the rail and glared down at the three men. "Gentlemen, is there a problem?"

The cook pointed at the older sailer. "He saw it! Port side, barely a tallowdrip ago!"

"Saw what?" demanded the quartermaster.

"W-w-whu... W-well, see now..." stammered the old sailor. "A fancy, you see? Had maybe just a sip, just a sip mind you... might'a been a dragonfish, a mer-whale, or one'a those giant flying babies y'see from time to time..."

"Giant flying baby... wait, did you say mer-wh..." and then understanding suddenly hit the quatermaster. "GENERAL QUARTERS!" he shouted. "GENERAL QU--"

A hundred feet above him, banking gently out of a dark cloud, Thumpelina smiled wickedly to herself. Too late, quartermaster, too late... She furled her wings tight into her body, and felt the firm grip of gravity envelope her and hurl her mercilessly down toward the deck of the airship. She activated the scarab hanging around her neck just before her bullet-shaped body blasted through the deck, sending splinters everywhere, smashing straight down through two lower decks and right through the bottom of the hull. As ballast stones dribbled out of the hole in the bottom of the airship, Thumpelina unfurled her wings and flapped back up towards the deck. Payback time.



Build Progression:


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Anthro Baleen 1
+1
+6
+6
+7
Listen 4, Spot 4, Tumble 2
Great Fortitude
+9 Natural Armor, Blindsight 120', Hold Breath, Tail Slap


2nd
Anthro Baleen 2
+2
+6
+7
+8
Listen 5, Spot 5, Swim 1




3rd
Anthro Baleen 3
+3
+7
+7
+8
Swim 2, Tumble 3
Air Heritage



4th
Simple Ranger 1
+4
+10
+8
+8
Jump 5, Tumble 5
Track -> Dragon Tail (Dragonborn)
Fast Movement +10', Favored Enemy: Krill, Spiritual Connection ACF, Skilled City Dweller ACF (Tumble), Tail Slap 1d8


5th
Monk 1
+4
+12
+10
+10
Balance 5
Dodge (Cobra Strike)
Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus


6th
Monk 2
+5
+13
+11
+11
Balance 7, Tumble 8
Mobility (Cobra Strike), Roofwalker
Evasion


7th
Psychic Warrior 1
+5
+15
+13
+11
Jump 7, Tumble 9
Versatile Unarmed Strike
Skilled City Dweller ACF (Tumble)


8th
Drunken Master 1
+5
+17
+13
+12
Concentration 4, Tumble 10

Drink Like a Demon, Improvised Weapons


9th
Drunken Master 2
+6
+18
+14
+12
Concentration 7, Tumble 12
Roof-Jumper
Stagger


10th
Psychic Warrior 2
+7
+19
+14
+12
Concentration 10
Speed of Thought



11th
Totemist 1
+7
+21
+16
+12
Jump 9, Tumble 13

Wild Empathy, Skilled City Dweller ACF


12th
Totemist 2
+8
+22
+17
+12
Jump 12, Tumble 15
Open Least Chakra: Hands
Totem Chakra, Skilled City Dweller ACF


13th
Monk 3
+9
+22
+17
+12
Jump 16, Tumble 16

Still Mind, Speed Bonus +10'







Level
PP
Powers Known


7th
2
expansion


8th
3
-


9th
3
-


10th
7
catfall


11th
7
-


12th
7
-


13th
7
-





Savage Species does not break the anthropomorphic animals into monster/racial class levels, but if they did, it might look something like:



Level
Hit Dice
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skill Points
Class Features


1st
1d8
+1
+0
+2
+2
(2 + Int mod) x 4
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +3 Natural Armor, Tail Slap 1d3, Blindsight 60', Darkvision 60', Hold Breath, medium size


2nd
2d8
+2
+0
+3
+3
2 + Int mod
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +6 Natural Armor, Blindsight 90'


3rd
3d8
+3
+1
+3
+3
2 + Int mod
+4 Str, +2 Wis, +9 Natural Armor, Tail Slap 1d4, Blindsight 120', large size



If the DM has suffered enough blunt head trauma to allow such a monstrousity to be played at ECL 1, Thumpelina starts off as just a meatbag, wielding a simple two-handed spear and her tail slap along with her high ability scores to dish out/soak up DPS. Shunned and misunderstood by her own kind, she lives off the land by herself, occasionally finding work as a caravan guard or hired muscle for bandits. Her blindsight gives her the ability to see her surroundings in complete darkness, which helps her detect ambushes or melt into the night when discretion proves the better part of valor.



Thumpelina's first class level! Woot! After some time living on her own, she's acquired the skills of a ranger, tracking game and living off the land. Her experience with caravan guards, bandits, and merchants has also taught her the imporance of improving her combat skills, such as Jump and Tumble. Striking up a friendship with a local bronze dragon named Fraxilara, she is introduced to the worship of Bahumat, which she takes to it like a whale to water.

Becoming a Dragonborn of Bahumat via the Ritual of Rebirth removes her natural armor, blindsight, and tail slap, but she gains a better tail attack by swapping the Track feat for the Dragon Tail feat. She now uses large-sized halberd with her tail slap as a secondary attack. She can also use a ranseur with her natural reach, which means she can threaten out to 20', and use her tail to attack anyone who gets inside her reach. The simple ranger variant gives her Fast Movement as a Barbarian and she takes the Spiritual Connection ACF to get more detailed information from the animals and plants around her.



When Fraxilara is killed by an evil band of looting adventurers, Thumpelina swears revenge. But first, she has to find a safe place for Fraxilara's hidden cache of eggs. This leads her to the Disciples of the Shining Scales, an order of monks dedicated to the worship of metallic dragons. They agree to safeguard the eggs, as well as help Thumpelina track down Fraxilara's murderers and teach her how to remove their spines with her fists. While studying with the Disciples of the Shining Scales, Thumpelina taps into her latent psionic abilities, and learns how to become... a lot more of herself, let's say.

As a monk, the AC Bonus helps shore up the loss of her natural armor a bit. If she's using a ranseur for reach, Improved Unarmed Strike lets her full attack adjacent targets with her tail slap as a secondary attack. The monks teach her how to move around in an urban environment and how to get out of tight spots (Dodge/Mobility/Roofwalker).

At ECL 6, her Dragonborn wings give her a 30' fly speed, improved to 70' with Air Heritage and Fast Movement. At ECL 7, Expansion opens up her first finishing move, the basic "Cannonball": She can fly directly over her opponent, expand to huge size, and deliberately stall, falling on them for 20d6 falling object damage. Savage Species doesn't give height/weight tables for anthropomorphic animals, but if we assume she's at least a svelte 500+ pounds at large size with all of her equipment, then she's at least 4000+ lbs when expanded. A single PP lasts for at least 10 rounds, so she can "Cannonball" 10 rounds in a row if need be. If she adds Boots of Landing (500 GP, MIC) or Bracers of Armor with the Landing property (+4000 GP, MIC), she can do this from 20' in the air and receive no falling damage. Without the boots, a Jump and/or Tumble check can reduce the falling damage. She also has a Dive Attack that she can perform with a piercing weapon, most likely with a two-handed piercing weapon such as a halberd or ranseur, but Versatile Unarmed Strike allows her to use unarmed strikes as piercing weapons as well. Ideally, we want to combine the Cannonball with the Dive Attack, but we're not quite there yet... first, we've got to get her really drunk...



What shall we do with a drunken whale-her?
What shall we do with a drunken whale-her?
What shall we do with a drunken whale-her?
Heave her up t'the wild blue yonder...

Two levels of Drunken Master gives Thumpelina the next part of her combo: Stagger (Ex). This ability allows her to make a charge that isn't in a straight line, which means she can fly straight up, make a 180-degree turn, and fly straight down as a Dive Attack. We could also do this without Drunken Master, taking Fleet of Foot (Complete Warrior) + Psionic Charge (XPH) to make a 180-degree turn on a charge, but you'd have to expend your psionic focus to do it. Drunken Master's Stagger works every single round and lets Thumpelina move around anything that might get in her way. At the same level she gets Stagger, she also gets the next piece of her combo: Roof-Jumper. She doesn't need this so much to turn her fall into a charge (Stagger and Dive Attack already do that), but it does add +1d6 damage to each 10' she falls after the first 10'. The last piece of the combo she needs is Pounce, and she gets that from Totemist, grabbing Sphinx Claws and binding to the hands chakra with a feat. She gets another two soulmelds, so we'll grab Wormtail Belt to get back some of her natural armor bonus and Girallon Arms for giggles (and the four secondary claw attacks).

Once she unlocks Pounce at ECL 12, if she acquires a Pectoral of Maneuverability (12000 GP, Draconomicon), she can fly straight up, turn 180 degrees, Dive Attack on the way down, full attack with everything, and then Cannonball for 20d6 falling object damage. The monk level after Totemist 1 is to grab a +10' speed boost, so she can squeeze more bonus damage out of Roof-Jumper. With a fly speed of 90', she can move up to 180' on a charge. This gives her enough movement to fly 70' straight up (costs double, so 140'), make a 180-degree turn, fly 70' straight down (costs half, so 35'), Pounce kicks in on the Dive Attack (x2 damage), and Roof-Jumper gives her +6d6 damage on all her attacks. She gets 7 attacks on a pounce:

unarmed#1 +15/unarmed#2 +10/claw#1 +10/claw#2 +10/claw#3 +10/claw#4 +10/tail +10

Assuming all her attacks hit, that should be about 47 average damage for each unarmed strike and 35 average damage for each claw/bite, and another 70 for the 20d6 falling object damage... total should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 339 average damage. And if that isn't enough, she can [I]dimension hop as a swift action for another 20d6 falling object damage.

If she can't fly (high winds, underground, religious holiday, etc.), Stagger and Pounce work perfectly well together on the ground. So long as she has 10' to back up from her opponent, she can charge + pounce every single round. She doesn't get the extra damage from Roof-Jumper, but 7 attacks with at least a +6 Str bonus should be plenty of DPS.

After ECL 13, Thumpelina should probably pursue a fighter dip to pick up the standard Ubercharger package: Power Attack/Leap Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper, along with anything that can increase her flight speed: the higher she can fly straight up, the more bonus damage she can squeeze out of Roof-Jumper.



Cityscape: Roofwalker, Roof-Jumper, Skilled City Dweller ACF
Complete Champion: Spiritual Connection ACF
Complete Warrior: Drunken Master
Draconomicon: Pectoral of Mobility.
Magic Item Compendium: Boots of Landing, Landing property, Scarab of Invulnerability
Magic of Incarnum: Totemist, Sphinx Claws, Girallon Arms, Wormtail Belt, Open Least Chakra: Hands
Planar Handbook: Air Heritage
Player's Handbook II: Versatile Unarmed Strike
Races of the Dragon: Dragonborn of Bahumat, Dragon Tail
Savage Species: Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.
Unearthed Arcana: Simple Ranger, Cobra Strike variant monk style

[Rubik]

edit: Apparently rubik is your guy if you need pictures of whales.See, I have this thing. You may have heard of it. It's called "Google."

[ZamielVanWeber]

See, I have this thing. You may have heard of it. It's called "Google."

Yet you did that work for me. I appreciate that.

[Rubik]

Yet you did that work for me. I appreciate that.'sokay. It took me, like, five minutes. No big.

[Windrammer]

We've already had a few pictures that could easily fit into Star Wars or a great many other fantasy worlds. It's not hard to imagine the ones smcmike and I found fitting into a fantasy story, for instance.
It's not much of a discussion to say "it fits" and "it doesn't" back and forth, so all I can really say is come on. This could easily be said back to me, but I really, honestly think you are just being obstinate in the debate rather than truly thinking about it and deciding you can see this cartoonish silliness in a serious fantasy setting.


Fantasy does not only equal archetypical, Underdark-delving, dungeoncrawling D&D.
You didn't need to explain that to anyone, but ok. Fantasy is indeed a broad word but D&D is D&D. It's a very adaptable system, you could make it work for any weird little setting you can conceive. But don't impose those standards on everyone else until it's established that everyone else is playing in a setting that is congruent with that weirdness. Why expect everyone to be on board with eccentric exceptions to the standard? Most D&D, astonishingly, is the kind of fantasy that D&D is designed for. Now all these supplements were made to support eccentricity (like wherever the hell anthropomorphic whales come from), but that doesn't make it any less eccentric or less inappropriate for the vast majority of campaign settings.


I could easily see an anthropomorphic whale character popping up in Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, for instance, or Okami, or any number of other fantasy-based games, all of which can be used as a basis for a D&D campaign. So long as there's water in at least some quantity, a character with a semi-aquatic anthropomorphic character is justifiable.
Legend of Zelda already has anthropomorphic animals. Of course it's not a leap. I never said "anthropomorphic whales have no place in any corner of fiction", so I don't know why the point is being pushed so hard. As you said yourself, "Fantasy" is a very broad term. So that kind of cheapens finding instances of "fantasy" that can accommodate an anthropomorphic whale. It's not hard to do, and it doesn't make for much of an argument.

[Rubik]

It's not much of a discussion to say "it fits" and "it doesn't" back and forth, so all I can really say is come on. This could easily be said back to me, but I really, honestly think you are just being obstinate in the debate rather than truly thinking about it and deciding you can see this cartoonish silliness in a serious fantasy setting.

You didn't need to explain that to anyone, but ok. Fantasy is indeed a broad word but D&D is D&D. It's a very adaptable system, you could make it work for any weird little setting you can conceive. But don't impose those standards on everyone else until it's established that everyone else is playing in a setting that is congruent with that weirdness. Why expect everyone to be on board with eccentric exceptions to the standard? Most D&D, astonishingly, is the kind of fantasy that D&D is designed for. Now all these supplements were made to support eccentricity (like wherever the hell anthropomorphic whales come from), but that doesn't make it any less eccentric or less inappropriate for the vast majority of campaign settings.

Legend of Zelda already has anthropomorphic animals. Of course it's not a leap. I never said "anthropomorphic whales have no place in any corner of fiction", so I don't know why the point is being pushed so hard. As you said yourself, "Fantasy" is a very broad term. So that kind of cheapens finding instances of "fantasy" that can accommodate an anthropomorphic whale. It's not hard to do, and it doesn't make for much of an argument.So tell me, which of those pics I've posted are too cartoony to belong with a group of adventurers? And which of the anthropomorphic whale's abilities are too silly for a campaign?

I'm genuinely curious.

[Windrammer]

I think it might be interesting to figure out what makes certain beastmen acceptable and others not. I've never heard anyone call gnolls immersion breaking or too ridiculous even though "evil tribal anthropomorphic hyenas that worship demons as a stock baddie race" sounds pretty damn silly and weird on its face. Ditto with, say, lizardmen and werewolves and to a lesser extent (because they're not as prominent, but still never seemed them quibbled over) things like dragonborn and catfolk.

To be honest those don't even strike me as that strange. Dragonborn and Catfolk are questionable sometimes but they're not that bad. Now there's a simple reason why anthropmorphic hyenas, lizards, dragons, and cats work while the whale doesn't. It's the same reason why an anthropomorphic worm doesn't work. It's just too many steps away from the human form, enough so that the image is inherently nonsensical. An anthropomorphic cat is just a big cat with different bone structure. Same goes for most of the animals... Now they walk on two legs instead of four.

Whales don't have legs. They have fins. What happens to the fins? They become arms? The tail becomes legs? Or do we REALLY have a good laugh at biology and let it have a tail AND legs?

What the hell is an anthropomorphic whale? Think of everything that defines a whale. What carries over onto this bipedal, landfaring creature? Barnacles? By the time you manage to figure out a depiction of an anthropomorphic whale that isn't awkward, cartoonish, and ridiculous it's utterly disconnected from whales. It's just such an inherently absurd concept/

[Windrammer]

So tell me, which of those pics I've posted are too cartoony to belong with a group of adventurers? And which of the anthropomorphic whale's abilities are too silly for a campaign?

I'm genuinely curious.

All of them, truly. They are awkward and a bit surreal, I think they only work as cartoons. And as cartoons there are a couple of depictions that aren't immediately jarring, it could work as a cartoon. As a cartoon. I've never played in a cartoon world campaign.

As for abilities... I'm not too concerned with abilities right now.

[Rubik]

To be honest those don't even strike me as that strange. Dragonborn and Catfolk are questionable sometimes but they're not that bad. Now there's a simple reason why anthropmorphic hyenas, lizards, dragons, and cats work while the whale doesn't. It's the same reason why an anthropomorphic worm doesn't work. It's just too many steps away from the human form, enough so that the image is inherently nonsensical. An anthropomorphic cat is just a big cat with different bone structure. Same goes for most of the animals... Now they walk on two legs instead of four.

Whales don't have legs. They have fins. What happens to the fins? They become arms? The tail becomes legs? Or do we REALLY have a good laugh at biology and let it have a tail AND legs?

What the hell is an anthropomorphic whale? Think of everything that defines a whale. What carries over onto this bipedal, landfaring creature? Barnacles? By the time you manage to figure out a depiction of an anthropomorphic whale that isn't awkward, cartoonish, and ridiculous it's utterly disconnected from whales. It's just such an inherently absurd concept/You do realize that whales are the aquatic descendants of terrestrial mammals, and that most of them actually do have vestigial leg-bones inside their bodies, right? Their tails merely flattened out into flukes, but they still have the remnants of their legs -- all four of them.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Whales don't have legs. They have fins. What happens to the fins? They become arms? The tail becomes legs? Or do we REALLY have a good laugh at biology and let it have a tail AND legs?
Whales have leg bones. They are vestigial but they have them. So a tail, legs, and arms (given that their fin bones are homologous to our hand bones and a cats paw bones, etc) are not at all unreasonable.


What the hell is an anthropomorphic whale? Think of everything that defines a whale. What carries over onto this bipedal, landfaring creature? Barnacles? By the time you manage to figure out a depiction of an anthropomorphic whale that isn't awkward, cartoonish, and ridiculous it's utterly disconnected from whales. It's just such an inherently absurd concept/

The pictures that rubik posted combine whale features and human features fairly nicely, at least imho.

[Rubik]

All of them, truly. They are awkward and a bit surreal, I think they only work as cartoons. And as cartoons there are a couple of depictions that aren't immediately jarring, it could work as a cartoon. As a cartoon. I've never played in a cartoon world campaign.

As for abilities... I'm not too concerned with abilities right now.So fish-men, squid-men, dog-men, shark-men, frog-men, bug-men, horse-men, bat-men, and bird-men are fine, but whale-men aren't. For...reasons.

[Windrammer]

So fish-men, squid-men, dog-men, shark-men, frog-men, bug-men, horse-men, bat-men, and bird-men are fine, but whale-men aren't. For...reasons.
Yes, for reasons I explained quite thoroughly. But why are you acting as though I approved all those races? I didn't bring up anthropomorphic whales, someone else did, and I decided to discuss them. Of course I don't like Shark-men, it's the same issue. Most anthropomorphic races are unfit for most settings, how about that?

[Windrammer]

Whales have leg bones. They are vestigial but they have them. So a tail, legs, and arms (given that their fin bones are homologous to our hand bones and a cats paw bones, etc) are not at all unreasonable. I know, and that should have been clear in that comment. Their tails were once legs and their fins were once arms, yes. So an anthropomorphic ambulocetus wouldn't be as bad. But as it stands, whales are whales because of their fins and tails and changing the makes it an organism that is independent, disconnected, and dumb looking.




The pictures that rubik posted combine whale features and human features fairly nicely, at least imho.

I mean only so much can be said on differences of opinion. Perhaps it's just me that has a hard time picturing cartoons in a standard D&D setting.

[Windrammer]

You do realize that whales are the aquatic descendants of terrestrial mammals, and that most of them actually do have vestigial leg-bones inside their bodies, right? Their tails merely flattened out into flukes, but they still have the remnants of their legs -- all four of them.

I can't believe people are trying to explain this to me...

[Windrammer]

I honestly didn't mean to derail the thread. I like anthro whale because:
1: It's visually cool. I am a massive man whale wielding a massive chain. Also monsters tend to lend themselves to much more interesting backstories in my opinion.
2: It is strong without being overwhelming.
3: Allies love having an effective tripper.

It honestly just struck a nerve that wasn't even related to you. You were just trying to make a helpful suggestion and I decided to seize it as an opportunity to address something I don't like about the internet DnD metagame in a roundabout way. I had no need of the thread soon after I made it so you really didn't do anything wrong.

[torrasque666]

I'm just gonna toss this out. Windrammer, edit and multiquote are things. Use them. I mean, come on.

[squiggit]

What the hell is an anthropomorphic whale? Think of everything that defines a whale. What carries over onto this bipedal, landfaring creature? Barnacles? By the time you manage to figure out a depiction of an anthropomorphic whale that isn't awkward, cartoonish, and ridiculous it's utterly disconnected from whales. It's just such an inherently absurd concept/

I don't really agree with this premise. Pretty much all of Rubik's pictures are very anthropomorphized and still reasonably identifiable as being related to whales. So I don't know how you can proclaim them utterly disconnected. Yeah. They're different and look more like people. But... that's kind of the definition of anthropomorphizing something.


I mean only so much can be said on differences of opinion.
Indeed. I think my only real bone to pick at this point is that you keep phrasing said difference of opinion as something more grandiose than it is. It's not simply that I'm fine with weird monsters and you aren't, but the phrasing of the position as though not having a problem with anthropomorphic whales means you don't care about immersion or don't understand how the settings are supposed to work or are more interested in powergaming than roleplaying or somesuch.

Otherwise yeah, that's pretty much what this boils down to.

[Deophaun]

To me, the only thing that would disqualify an anthropomorphic whale is that the purpose of being a whale is to be HUGE (sorry, Colossal)--that is the entirety of their evolutionary strategy--and that means needing to be in water for support. Being an amphibious creature defeats the point. And that makes me wonder why such a creature would happen. Even assuming magic, why would a wizard bother to make walking whales, of all things? I could see an aquatic race of whales with arms and hands at full size, things that dwarf giants; that has utility. But the full humanoid treatment I can't see a reason for.

[Rubik]

To me, the only thing that would disqualify an anthropomorphic whale is that the purpose of being a whale is to be HUGE (sorry, Colossal)--that is the entirety of their evolutionary strategy--and that means needing to be in water for support. Being an amphibious creature defeats the point. And that makes me wonder why such a creature would happen. Even assuming magic, why would a wizard bother to make walking whales, of all things? I could see an aquatic race of whales with arms and hands at full size, things that dwarf giants; that has utility. But the full humanoid treatment I can't see a reason for.D&D is full of ginormous things that support their own weight. The tarrasque, elephants, dire animals, every giant that isn't a half-giant, every adult and older true dragon (which can fly), and half the stuff in the Epic Level Handbook, among other things.

Also, lots of dinosaurs were very much larger than elephants IRL, and they seemed to have survived just fine, if the 135 million years or so of fossil records are correct.

[Deophaun]

D&D is full of ginormous things that support their own weight. The tarrasque, elephants, dire animals, every giant that isn't a half-giant, every adult and older true dragon (which can fly), and half the stuff in the Epic Level Handbook, among other things.

Also, lots of dinosaurs were very much larger than elephants IRL, and they seemed to have survived just fine, if the 135 million years or so of fossil records are correct.
And both elephants and dinosaurs have/had completely different bone structures than whales. Ditto for dragons, which were inspired by dinosaur bones. Which makes an anthropomorphic whale make less sense, not more, because there already exist far easier paths to create a gigantic creature that walks on land.

Edit: And anthropomorphic baleen whales are particularly egregious, because they are filter feeders. What the heck are they doing on land? Because it's not eating.

[Rubik]

And both elephants and dinosaurs have/had completely different bone structures than whales. Ditto for dragons, which were inspired by dinosaur bones. Which makes an anthropomorphic whale make less sense, not more, because there already exist far easier paths to create a gigantic creature that walks on land.

Edit: And anthropomorphic baleen whales are particularly egregious, because they are filter feeders. What the heck are they doing on land? Because it's not eating.I normally don't like this answer, because it's usually lazy, but...

Magic.

...because that's exactly what it is.

[Deophaun]

I normally don't like this answer, because it's usually lazy, but...

Magic.

...because that's exactly what it is.
I already countered that, though. Why would a wizard bother?

And even if magic randomly created them, afterwards they're still subject to the same selective forces as everything else. Now you have whales in a form that is less efficient for living in water, barely serviceable for walking on land, and they can't even take advantage of the resources the land offers because there's no krill floating on the breeze.

These things die off. The legacy of the anthropomorphic baleen whale is a bunch of bones scattered along a beach, marked by shark teeth.

[ranagrande]

I already countered that, though. Why would a wizard bother?

And even if magic randomly created them, afterwards they're still subject to the same selective forces as everything else. Now you have whales in a form that is less efficient for living in water, barely serviceable for walking on land, and they can't even take advantage of the resources the land offers because there's no krill floating on the breeze.

These things die off. The legacy of the anthropomorphic baleen whale is a bunch of bones scattered along a beach, marked by shark teeth.

There are plenty of ways in D&D to go without food. Natural selection would favor the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale because they make such good adventurers.

[Nifft]

I already countered that, though. Why would a wizard bother?

Ah, but what if it wasn't a Wizard?

What if it was someone with an intelligence penalty, like a Sorcerer?

[EisenKreutzer]

Are people seriously debating whether anthropomorphic whale characters are appropriate for a D&D game?

Some people feel that such characters are silly. That doesn't mean they have a limited imagination or are narrow minded, it just means their tastes are different.
Other people like to play unique character concepts like this. Thats not negative either.

But arguing about which is "correct" doesn't lead anywhere.

[Zrak]

Is TMNT really what you shoot for when you play DnD?
Not really. In an archetypal Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles storyline, you have a relatively balanced party of four heroes use a combination of combat and guile to infiltrate the headquarters of an evil organization and defeat their leader in combat to save their city/the world. In an archetypal D&D campaign you could have five, maybe six dudes in relatively balanced party use a combination of combat and guile to infiltrate the headquarters of an evil organization and defeat their leader in combat to save their city/the world.
I mean, uh, unless you count Splinter and Casey. Then they're pretty much exactly the same.


Whales have leg bones. They are vestigial but they have them. So a tail, legs, and arms (given that their fin bones are homologous to our hand bones and a cats paw bones, etc) are not at all unreasonable.

Actually, they aren't altogether vestigial. They help whales make whoopee better. I'm totally serious, the former hip bones now basically exist solely to guide the penis during mating.

Well, and to turn back into legs as soon as an adequately kickass spiked chain build comes online.

[Dread_Head]

Think of your favorite fantasy film. Can you imagine an anthropomorphic baleen whale there?

No, anthropomorphic animals probably aren't a great fit in LotR. But that isn't what I'm trying to emulate with d&d or I'd be left with humans, halflings, dwarves and elves fighting orcs, goblins, giant spiders, trolls and dragons. I prefer a more open world version of fantasy in d&d where pretty much anything can exist. When you look at all the available playable races: Shifter, Warforged, Tibbit, Lycanthropes, Genasi, Darfellan (effectively another anthropomorphic orca race), Hadozee, Raptoran, Illumian etc. are anthro whales really that out of whack? Thats before we even start flicking through a monster manual looking at all the bizarre monsters you're expected to fight.

There is nothing wrong with favouring a more serious style of roleplaying in your d&d games. There is also nothing wrong with favouring a highly silly d&d. But I personally think that there are plenty of fun roleplaying opportunities to be had with anthropomorphic whales and plenty of them are entirely serious concepts.

[unseenmage]

Randomized list of animals and vermin in my sig. I use it to both simulate bizarre animal bazaars and to randomly select creatures to Awaken, Anthropomorphose, Effigy-ize, and undead-ify.
And to me the nonexistent words I just used are far more immersion breaking than any oft he template stacked monstrosities that come from that list.

However, I work for that immersion, either as a player via a good solid background, or as a DM via strong character flaws that bring the character up from the silly into the compelling.

That baleen whale? Maybe he's starving and forced to feed on dried up sacks of shrimp he has to shovel into his mouth like a monster. He's so much more comfortable swimming and drinking his meals like a proper person but no, some catastrophe or another has forced him onto land away from his people and here he is sitting, quite uncomfortably in a tavern shoveling disgusting dried shrimp into his maw to stay alive long enough to stop said catastrophe. He's grouchy and just wants to go home but he can't. He has a job to do and he's going to do it. No matter what.

There's this comic the owner of my LGS raves about, Elephantmen? I think? It's about beast men created for wartime and their trying to finds their place in society after they're not useful anymore. Kinda exactly like the Warforged of Eberron. Another example of anthropomorphic animals used right.

I guess what I'm saying is that the important part of an anthropormorphic character isn't its animal characteristics but its human ones. The personality, setting, and background are what make any character viable.


I mean you think anthro animals are hard to grok? Try anthro animated chairs or boulders. There's this spell I overuse, Greater Humanoid Essence, it makes any Construct a humanoid for the duration. And that's all the description we get. Doesn't even get a template, the spell just does its thing for a while. One day I realized that I could Animate Objects random furniture or terrain and then hit it with this spell and then presto! Humanoid furniture.
Beauty-and-the-Beast-esque animated objects are hard enough to maintain immersion with but making them humanoids for a few rounds makes it just as difficult to maintain immersion as any anthropomorphic creature.

[smcmike]

That baleen whale? Maybe he's starving and forced to feed on dried up sacks of shrimp he has to shovel into his mouth like a monster. He's so much more comfortable swimming and drinking his meals like a proper person but no, some catastrophe or another has forced him onto land away from his people and here he is sitting, quite uncomfortably in a tavern shoveling disgusting dried shrimp into his maw to stay alive long enough to stop said catastrophe. He's grouchy and just wants to go home but he can't. He has a job to do and he's going to do it. No matter what.

Yes, this.

I actually agree with both sides here. If you want to run a non-cartoony "realistic" style campaign, an anthropomorphic whale doesn't fit aesthetically. Of course, I think the same thing about a heck of a lot of the standard bestiary.

Also, I guess I missed the start of the thread, and the motivation for the discussion. If the idea came up for character optimization purposes, rather than as something that just sounded fun, I can see why some would take offense. I think the char op choices that are bandied about on here are often kinda silly. No, I don't want to play a stinky little kobold, thank you very much, and I don't even really know what "dragonwrought" means.

On the other hand, I like weird things, if the aesthetic works, and a whale sitting in a tavern scarfing down dried shrimp and blowing cigar smoke outta his blowhole is fun. It's a bit cartoony, but so what? TMNT is great. I can also picture it as something out of a Hellboy-style aesthetic. Both are cartoony fantasy with gritty elements.

[Talothorn]

Darfellan are anthropomorphic whales. And d&d canon.

[Greenish]

Darfellan are anthropomorphic whales.Much of the art for them is basically muscular human with black and white patterns on their skin (and an upturned nose for some reason), though, so pretty boring.

Now, though, I'm imagining them as something like this:
http://orig04.deviantart.net/cc5a/f/2012/184/d/e/alaskan_whale_by_meeshi-d55w8r3.png20 ft. land speed, 40 ft. swim speed, bite attack, echolocation. Yes.

[Rubik]

Much of the art for them is basically muscular human with black and white patterns on their skin (and an upturned nose for some reason), though, so pretty boring.

Now, though, I'm imagining them as something like this:
http://orig04.deviantart.net/cc5a/f/2012/184/d/e/alaskan_whale_by_meeshi-d55w8r3.png20 ft. land speed, 40 ft. swim speed, bite attack, echolocation. Yes.Heh. That was in my image gallery above. :smallamused:


Yes, for reasons I explained quite thoroughly. But why are you acting as though I approved all those races? I didn't bring up anthropomorphic whales, someone else did, and I decided to discuss them. Of course I don't like Shark-men, it's the same issue. Most anthropomorphic races are unfit for most settings, how about that?Anthropoidal animal races are all over D&D, and almost every bit of mythology the entire world over. Lycanthropes, locathah, yuan-ti, thri-kreen, senmurv, kobolds, orcs, hound archons, barghest, centaurs, half-dragons, formians, leonals, minotaurs, naga, rakshasa, sahuagin, satyrs, scorpionfolk, skum, sphinxes, pixies, nixies, and grigs, winter wolves, worgs, and Awakened animals.

All are a big part of D&D, and most of them are playable as PC races. And that's just in the SRD. Many of them (and many, many, many more) are strewn throughout mythology the world over.

I'm just not seeing how you can disapprove of all of those in a fantasy game because they kill your suspension of disbelief. It's a fantasy game. Fantastic creatures are part and parcel of the genre.

[Red Fel]

I'm just not seeing how you can disapprove of all of those in a fantasy game because they kill your suspension of disbelief. It's a fantasy game. Fantastic creatures are part and parcel of the genre.

Two points are worth noting here.

First, the policy of de gustibus non est disputandum is in effect - in matters of taste, there can be no dispute. There are people who find the concept of anthropomorphic sea mammals just a bit off-putting for whatever reason, and that's fine. In your game, you can ban whatever you want, and "I just don't like it" is a fair justification. People ban Tome of Battle for much the same reason, and if they'd simply fess up about that, instead of making up garbage like "It's so imbalanced," I'd be (begrudgingly) fine with that.

Second, let's face it, there is a spectrum. It's not "If Dragons, then Whale-People (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfJesusThenAliens)" here. (TVTropes link warning.) There is no rule that if you accept one portion of the fantasy world, you must accept it all. And there are some concepts that are more palatable, such as human-like Elves and Dwarves, and others which are more culturally and mythologically ingrained, such as Dragons and Werewolves. Whales that walk on land are neither of these things - they exist on a slightly more extreme end of the spectrum.

Frankly, if I'm willing to use the Anthropomorphic Animals material at my table, I'm willing to accept it all, within reasonable limits. But it's not unreasonable for someone to say, "Cat ninja, rat sorcerers, and horse knights, sure. But Shamu-rai are where I draw the line."

Dragons and Werewolves are fantasy creatures. Whale people are imaginary.

Darfellan are a thing, though.

[Deophaun]

Are people seriously debating whether anthropomorphic whale characters are appropriate for a D&D game?
I just want to say I'm not really debating that. I'm just questioning the concept of whale people in general. If you're at my table and want to roll up an anthro baleen whale, go for it.

That baleen whale? Maybe he's starving and forced to feed on dried up sacks of shrimp he has to shovel into his mouth like a monster. He's so much more comfortable swimming and drinking his meals like a proper person but no, some catastrophe or another...
The catastrophe was being turned into an anthro whale.

[Deadline]

Well now I'm very curious now as to where the line is that folks draw when it comes to anthropomorphic critters in D&D. I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that folks are generally ok with anthropomorhpic monsters as a concept (after all, there are a tremendous number of them in official source material, as well as in various fantasy works and mythology). So it seems like it's only certain types of anthromorphs that set people off.

Why is it that lycanthropes, pretty much all of the yugoloths (which are predominantly anthro-insects and dog-men[Arcanoloths]), and gnolls could be totally ok, but other forms aren't. Is it just that certain anthromorphs stretch the limits of your suspension of disbelief? Could it be a cultural or geographic thing? Like if you aren't very familiar with a certain animal (or it's not a common sight in your area), having it as an anthromorph is immersion breaking for you? Maybe you find the idea of any kind of anthromorph ridiculous? If so, can you think of why, or is it simply a personal taste thing?

This question is directed at the group as a whole, not anyone in particular, although I would be interested in hearing from Windrammer specifically if he's interested in the discussion. I'm not trying to claim a deficiency on anyone's part, everyone can like what they like, just trying to figure out why some folks draw that line where they do. It's honestly an interesting topic of discussion to me. :smallsmile:

[ComaVision]

It never struck me as an issue. I can recall people always wanting to play animal-based characters and most of the fantasy I was in contact with in my teens had anthro-animals in it. It's a part of fantasy for me, and I don't think any anthro-animal is sillier than another. (That being said, WereArmadillos are super cool and I need to play one some day.)

[Rubik]

(That being said, WereArmadillos are super cool and I need to play one some day.)You might like reading this: https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/series/jacob_the_monster

Some background: It's an offshoot story of the Jenkinsverse/Deathworlders series. Humans have been abducted by aliens for millennia, and in comparison to the rest of the galaxy, Earth is a complete deathtrap. Thus, we have developed to be stronger, tougher, faster, and smarter than just about everything else out there, because we evolved to counter all the hazards on our world, and we use our brains as tools and weapons, which has put us as the tip-top alpha predator on the planet. There are still major challenges to face out there, however, and those are what the abducted humans have to deal with.

The above story involves alien armadillos, so you might find an interest there.

And here are the official stories in the Jenkinsverse series: https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/universes/jenkinsverse

[iDesu]

Why is it that lycanthropes, pretty much all of the yugoloths (which are predominantly anthro-insects and dog-men[Arcanoloths]), and gnolls could be totally ok, but other forms aren't.

I think part of it is just how they're presented. I get different images in my head when I think of a gnoll than when I think of an anthropomorphic hyena. Same thing for darfellin and anthropomorphic whales. By attaching a name to the actual species it comes across as more... effort being put into it, I guess? Either way the only issue I would have with anthro creatures in a game I would run would be the potential power level, and that's mostly aimed at the bat.

[unseenmage]

Well now I'm very curious now as to where the line is that folks draw when it comes to anthropomorphic critters in D&D. I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that folks are generally ok with anthropomorhpic monsters as a concept (after all, there are a tremendous number of them in official source material, as well as in various fantasy works and mythology). So it seems like it's only certain types of anthromorphs that set people off.

Why is it that lycanthropes, pretty much all of the yugoloths (which are predominantly anthro-insects and dog-men[Arcanoloths]), and gnolls could be totally ok, but other forms aren't. Is it just that certain anthromorphs stretch the limits of your suspension of disbelief? Could it be a cultural or geographic thing? Like if you aren't very familiar with a certain animal (or it's not a common sight in your area), having it as an anthromorph is immersion breaking for you? Maybe you find the idea of any kind of anthromorph ridiculous? If so, can you think of why, or is it simply a personal taste thing?

This question is directed at the group as a whole, not anyone in particular, although I would be interested in hearing from Windrammer specifically if he's interested in the discussion. I'm not trying to claim a deficiency on anyone's part, everyone can like what they like, just trying to figure out why some folks draw that line where they do. It's honestly an interesting topic of discussion to me. :smallsmile:

I touched on this a bit in my post. To me the idea of an anthromorph animated object is mechanically interesting and thematically appropriate in some super high magic or high Construct setting but is very immersion breaking to really focus on flavor wise.

On the other hand with enough imagination I can justify about any kind of creature at my table and minimize the damage it does to immersion.

For example. I once had a player who wanted to play an anthropomorphic camel in one of my games. And he wanted it to be purple. And naturally purple and not an outcast.
So I put his characters people on a remote island and tasked him with being a bad enough dude to bring their existence into the public consciousness of the npcs in our game world.

[Greenish]

Heh. That was in my image gallery above. :smallamused:That's where I picked it from. I saw it and went "hey, that'd be pretty good darfellan".

[Threadnaught]

So fish-men, squid-men, dog-men, shark-men, frog-men, bug-men, horse-men, bat-men, and bird-men are fine, but whale-men aren't. For...reasons.

Yes, for reasons I explained quite thoroughly. But why are you acting as though I approved all those races?

Fish-men = Sahuagin.
Squid-men = Illithids.
Dog-men = Gnolls.
Shark-men = Sahuagin.
Frog-men = Slaad.
Bug-men = Thri-kreen.
Horse-men = Umm, Centaurs?
Bird-men = Raptorans.


That wasn't a very compelling rebuttal.

I'm not trying to change your opinion on the matter, you clearly can't imagine Anthropomorphic Whales in these as easily as I could.
What I tried to do was state that I can easily picture such a thing.


Not sure what you meant about Lord of the Rings but it's hard to imagine what could possibly justify an anthropomorphic whale in that film.

Let it play then pause (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyevhryWKHk) and look it over.

Just picture the skin slightly smoother and imagine it's in an underwater ruin or something. Also I'm thinking Sperm Whale, not Baleen.


Harry Potter: Indeed there are weird magical creatures. There are weird magical creatures, and there are anthropomorphic whales. If you think one would fit in Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings then I can't help but feel that you're not investing much effort into imagining what that would actually be like.

I don't have to invest much effort, I have a pretty good imagination.
Thanks for telling me what I'm really thinking though, I always had trouble without someone else telling me.


Star Wars... No. The fundamental issue here is that an anthropomorphic is simply implausible in appearance in a way that other weird variants of the humanoid form aren't. As in, cartoonish and unnatural. The moment it looks plausible is the moment it stops bearing connection to whales. And there's the whole issue of making a character specifically analogous to an animal on earth, that's weird in an alien and disconnected universe like that of Star Wars.

Pay attention, my entire inclusion of Star Wars explained in a short video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piVnArp9ZE0

Listen to the Anthropomorphic Squid. Oh, apparently Mon Calamari are Anthropomorphic Fish, but with Octopi like suction cups on their hands/arms, Anthropomorphic Octopi?
All Mon Calamari in this scene are capable of breathing underwater.
Ithorians are basically Vegan Anthropomorphic Hammerhead Sharks without Water breathing.
Rodians, Geonosians and several other species are clearly Insectoids or insect-like.
Wookies are Anthropomorphic Ape-Bears.
Ewoks are anthropomorphic bear cubs.


Treasure Planet and Monsters Inc... What do they have to do with this? Anthropomorphic whales would also work in a number of children's films and TV shows, but we're not talking about their role in the entire world of fiction. I'm talking about Fantasy as DnD was designed for. Don't see any dungeons, dragons, or anything remotely medieval or reminiscient of in Monsters Inc.

Sorry, I mistook your comment in which you said..


Think of your favorite fantasy film. Can you imagine an anthropomorphic baleen whale there?

As referring to my favourite fantasy films when I responded to it. I'm so sorry to have failed to take into account what you actually meant when you said what I responded to.
Oh btw, there are fire breathing monsters in Monsters Inc. One of the Professors in Monsters U is a Dragon, Mike and Sully end up going on two Adventures into the Human World in their lifetime, the first during their time at university they avoid the Humans and manage to open a door home. The second they're attempting to reach a certain room and hop through dimensions several times in an attempt to avoid the weird Basilisk thing following them, and expose the Anthropomorphic Tauric Crab.

How about we talk about the fine sport of Football. Football, not the armoured version of Rugby.
I may not score when you move the goal posts while I'm taking a shot, but that doesn't mean I'm not on target when kicking the ball.


I mean, uh, unless you count Splinter and Casey. Then they're pretty much exactly the same.

Splinter is an Anthropomorphic Rat or a Were Rat.

[Windrammer]

Heh. That was in my image gallery above. :smallamused:

Anthropoidal animal races are all over D&D, and almost every bit of mythology the entire world over. Lycanthropes, locathah, yuan-ti, thri-kreen, senmurv, kobolds, orcs, hound archons, barghest, centaurs, half-dragons, formians, leonals, minotaurs, naga, rakshasa, sahuagin, satyrs, scorpionfolk, skum, sphinxes, pixies, nixies, and grigs, winter wolves, worgs, and Awakened animals.

All are a big part of D&D, and most of them are playable as PC races. And that's just in the SRD. Many of them (and many, many, many more) are strewn throughout mythology the world over.

I'm just not seeing how you can disapprove of all of those in a fantasy game because they kill your suspension of disbelief. It's a fantasy game. Fantastic creatures are part and parcel of the genre.

Centaurs are actually a good example... They work fine in a fantasy setting because they have so much precedent in mythology. Now if they had never been conceived, and someone comes up with the idea for the sake of D&D, it would be laughed at and dismissed. Now as I explained, anthropomorphic whales are different than other anthropomorphic animals, because of the nature of their appearance. It takes a lot more to make a whale anthropomorphic than it does most of the other things named.

Anyways, as big of a list as that is it goes under what I said earlier: DnD provides the options for eccentricity. The 3.5 system provides stats for assault rifles and laser guns, that doesn't mean it would be appropriate for someone to enter a campaign with one.

[EisenKreutzer]

I'm just not seeing how you can disapprove of all of those in a fantasy game because they kill your suspension of disbelief. It's a fantasy game. Fantastic creatures are part and parcel of the genre.

Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean anything neccessarily fits into it. It all depends on peoples vision and expectation of what "fantasy" means.

If I accept certain elements of fantasy, I don't automatically have to accept all elements of fantasy.

For me, personally, anthropomorphic whales are too much. I wouldn't accept anthropomorphic giraffes or camels either. Cats I'd be fine with, dogs and birds, sure. But like many people I draw the line somewhere, not because I'm narrow minded but because certain things don't fit into my personal view of fantasy.

Some people here seem to subscribe to the idea that if you accept cat people, you should also accept ant-eater people, elephant people, whale people and tick people.
Now, these people are free to play the game however they want to. But it's not a requirement to accept everything imaginable just because the game takes place in a fantasy setting. Anthropomorphic animals don't really have a place in Tolkiens fantasy, for example (and don't bring up the eagles and spiders, they are intelligent but not anthropomorphic in Tolkiens world).

[Deophaun]

Some people here seem to subscribe to the idea that if you accept cat people, you should also accept ant-eater people, elephant people, whale people and tick people.
If you didn't want tick people, then you should have put that oil between the shoulder blades of your cat people. Really, it's your own fault.

Oh, and SPOON!

[Zrak]

Dog-men = Gnolls.
Hyena aren't dogs, actually.



Splinter is an Anthropomorphic Rat or a Were Rat.

I'd go anthropomorphic rat, personally. Since he began life as a rat in most versions, he'd be a ratwere (is there still a difference like there was in AD&D?). Mostly, I was referring to the fact that he and Casey made for six party members, since my facetious point of difference between TMNT and D&D was that some D&D parties contain more than four people.


For me, personally, anthropomorphic whales are too much . . . Cats I'd be fine with, dogs and birds, sure.

I think some of what other people are having trouble with is not necessarily idea that an anthropomorphic whale is too much in isolation, but the idea that anthropomorphic whale is somehow "more" than a cat, dog, or bird. I have to say, I can't really understand the rationale behind a line which includes one and excludes the other.


(and don't bring up the eagles and spiders, they are intelligent but not anthropomorphic in Tolkiens world).

While I understand it's not what you mean when you use the word, or how the word has been generally used in this thread, the spiders and eagles in Tolkien are, by definition, anthropomorphic. That has no bearing on the validity of your argument, I just have this condition where I will die if I go more than thirty-six hours without being pedantic about something.

[Starbuck_II]

Hyena aren't dogs, actually.


Yes, recently science links them closer to cats even though they look more dog-like. But prior to this they were dog-like. So he is right just not anymore.

[Windrammer]

Much of the art for them is basically muscular human with black and white patterns on their skin (and an upturned nose for some reason), though, so pretty boring.

Now, though, I'm imagining them as something like this:
http://orig04.deviantart.net/cc5a/f/2012/184/d/e/alaskan_whale_by_meeshi-d55w8r3.png20 ft. land speed, 40 ft. swim speed, bite attack, echolocation. Yes.

And on this note I will concede one thing... I loved that bit of artwork. It did stop me in my tracks for a moment because of how much I liked it. In the right setting, I would be totally down to play a character like that. I maintain that the anthropomorphic whale is an eccentric and conditional choice of character unfit for the majority of settings that is generally chosen for optimization at the cost of roleplaying, but in settings populated by implausible cartoons it would be perfectly fine.

[Rubik]

settings populated by implausible cartoonsWhich pretty much sums up every campaign ever played, since they generally run with cartoon physics, what with the "falling from orbit, leaving a crater, and getting up just fine after being squashed into a pancake" schtick, among others.

[Zrak]

Yes, recently science links them closer to cats even though they look more dog-like. But prior to this they were dog-like. So he is right just not anymore.

Even when hyena were considered caniform rather than feliform, they weren't classified as dogs. They were considered dog-like insofar as bears are dog-like.

[EisenKreutzer]

While I understand it's not what you mean when you use the word, or how the word has been generally used in this thread, the spiders and eagles in Tolkien are, by definition, anthropomorphic. That has no bearing on the validity of your argument, I just have this condition where I will die if I go more than thirty-six hours without being pedantic about something.

No, they aren't actually. Anthropomorphic means "in the form of a human." Thats the "morphic" part. An anthropomorphic animal is an animal with a human-like body, not just an animal with a human attribute. Thats my understanding, at any rate.

[Starbuck_II]

No, they aren't actually. Anthropomorphic means "in the form of a human." Thats the "morphic" part. An anthropomorphic animal is an animal with a human-like body, not just an animal with a human attribute. Thats my understanding, at any rate.

Yeah, Tauric template is for an animal with a human attribute.

[Necroticplague]

I'm not seeing why whales, which at least share the distinction of being mammals with humans, should be less able to be anthopomorphed than spiders, of which there are at least 4 different anthro-types (driders, the hybrid forms of both aranea and were-spiders, and the Arachnoid template applied to some human-appearing magical beast.). Seems like a rather arbitrary cutoff.

[Rubik]

No, they aren't actually. Anthropomorphic means "in the form of a human." Thats the "morphic" part. An anthropomorphic animal is an animal with a human-like body, not just an animal with a human attribute. Thats my understanding, at any rate.The word you're looking for there is "humanoid."

The actual definition of "anthropomorphic" is, "having human characteristics." Whether the characteristics are mental or physical is irrelevant, as is the depth of the "humanness." The ponies of MLP are anthropomorphic despite not being humanoid, as are the animated objects in Disney's Beauty and the Beast.

The anthropomorphic animal template just happens to give animals a humanoid shape. Awakened animals would be considered anthropomorphic, too.

[GoldfishBowl]

Shamu-rai

Thread over.

[Rubik]

I'm not seeing why whales, which at least share the distinction of being mammals with humans, should be less able to be anthopomorphed than spiders, of which there are at least 4 different anthro-types (driders, the hybrid forms of both aranea and were-spiders, and the Arachnoid template applied to some human-appearing magical beast.). Seems like a rather arbitrary cutoff.It is entirely arbitrary, which is why I find "anthro-whales are silly" to be a pretty erroneous sentiment when the person saying it considers anthropomorphicizing other animals to be just fine.

[edit] Not liking anthro-whales is fine, but it's still arbitrary.

[Zrak]

No, they aren't actually. Anthropomorphic means "in the form of a human." Thats the "morphic" part. An anthropomorphic animal is an animal with a human-like body, not just an animal with a human attribute. Thats my understanding, at any rate.


anthropomorphic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anthropomorphic)
adjective an·thro·po·mor·phic \ˌan(t)-thrə-pə-ˈmȯr-fik\
1: described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes <anthropomorphic deities>
2: ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things <anthropomorphic supernaturalism>

[OldTrees1]

anthropomorphic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anthropomorphic)
adjective an·thro·po·mor·phic \ˌan(t)-thrə-pə-ˈmȯr-fik\
1: described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes <anthropomorphic deities>
2: ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things <anthropomorphic supernaturalism>

Correct.

However the majority of this thread has been in reference to the template from Savage Species (as applied to Whales), thus for this thread it makes sense to continue to misuse the English language in the same way WotC did in order to remain clear.

We are actually talking about the morphing of an animal into a humanoid form while changing as little as possible. For example: Mind Flayers are Squid-heads not Squids in Humanoid form(which would probably use the 2 long tentacles for feet and the short ones for arms). Different animal forms have different distances from the Humanoid form. These different distances result in some people considering some examples weirder than others.

[Zrak]

Correct.

However the majority of this thread has been in reference to the template from Savage Species (as applied to Whales), thus for this thread it makes sense to continue to misuse the English language in the same way WotC did in order to remain clear.


While I understand it's not what you mean when you use the word, or how the word has been generally used in this thread, the spiders and eagles in Tolkien are, by definition, anthropomorphic. That has no bearing on the validity of your argument, I just have this condition where I will die if I go more than thirty-six hours without being pedantic about something.

This condition includes being needlessly pedantic about my own remarks in a discussion. :smalltongue: