DFI Bardsader

[Alistaroc]

So I see a lot about how Snowflake Wardance is amazing, and all I see is that it gives you to-hit bonuses, and makes me think it'd be cool while binding Paimon.

So what's so great about it?

And how can I use it to make a whirling melee bard?

[Bucky]

Snowflake Wardance stacks with everything. Including Inspire Courage.

Snowflake Wardance lets you power attack for the full amount.

Snowflake Wardance lets you TWF without the Two Weapon Fighting feat with the same to-hit as a normal attack.

(E)
Snowflake Wardance lets you Fight Defensively with full offense.

Snowflake Wardance makes your third iterative actually do something on a non-20.

[FocusWolf413]

Snowflake Wardance stacks with everything.

Snowflake Wardance lets you power attack for the full amount.

Snowflake Wardance lets you TWF without the Two Weapon Fighting feat with the same to-hit as a normal attack.

Does it? What's the feat as written?

[Keld Denar]

It doesn't give you the feats, it just gives you a huge bonus to hit, which can counter the TWF penalties that one would have TWFing without the feats. There is a matter of interpretation, however, whether or not you can TWF with SFWD, since it says something like "holding a one handed weapon in one hand", which could be interpreted to exclude holding a one handed weapon in EACH hand.

I personally don't think it's that great. You can't 2hand PA with it, and it can chew up a lot of BM uses. Properly optimized IC can give significant bonuses on it's own. Bards are generally pretty strapped for feats as well, outside of core, so the opportunity cost is high.

[Bucky]

It unambiguously works with one of your two weapons. A particularly hostile interpretation might say you need to choose one weapon to give the bonus to when you activate it, so your other weapon doesn't benefit.

[Deophaun]

There is a matter of interpretation, however, whether or not you can TWF with SFWD, since it says something like "holding a one handed weapon in one hand", which could be interpreted to exclude holding a one handed weapon in EACH hand.
And fireball can be interpreted as dealing an additional xd6 un-typed damage. The interpretation would be wrong, but it could still happen.

[Darrin]

I consider it as more of a distraction or a trap: it forces you into TWF but doesn't give you any bonus damage, which is where TWF really needs the help. You get more mileage out of Arcane Strike.

[Necroticplague]

It doesn't give you the feats, it just gives you a huge bonus to hit, which can counter the TWF penalties that one would have TWFing without the feats. There is a matter of interpretation, however, whether or not you can TWF with SFWD, since it says something like "holding a one handed weapon in one hand", which could be interpreted to exclude holding a one handed weapon in EACH hand.

Actually, the relevent text says "you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand." The scimitar in my main hand is a slashing melee weapon wielded in one hand. The sickle in my off hand is also a slashing melee weapon wielded in one hand. Thus, it works for both if you use them both.

[Alistaroc]

Okay...

This looks interesting, but what looks much more interesting is a Bardsader build for using Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration
Would it be possible to build a Bardsader focused on the above, and throw TWF and Snowflke Wardance in there for a bit of self-sufficiency?

I imagine it'd be:
Silverbrow Human
Bard 4/Crusader 1/War Chanter 5/Crusader 10
or
Bard 4/Crusader 6/Seeker of the Song 2/Crusader 8

[sleepyphoenixx]

Okay...

This looks interesting, but what looks much more interesting is a Bardsader build for using Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration
Would it be possible to build a Bardsader focused on the above, and throw TWF and Snowflke Wardance in there for a bit of self-sufficiency?

I imagine it'd be:
Silverbrow Human
Bard 4/Crusader 1/War Chanter 5/Crusader 10
or
Bard 4/Crusader 6/Seeker of the Song 2/Crusader 8

The problem with that is that Song of the White Raven doesn't increase your uses of bardic music. If you're using your bardic music for IC and DFI already you won't have the daily uses to also drop in SFWD every combat.

[Flickerdart]

If you have spare feats, you can always dump them into Extra Music (+4 uses).

However, it's unlikely that you'll need to use Inspire Courage and Dragonfire and Wardance in every battle. The sort of battles where you need to pull out that many stops are probably going to be CR+4 one-a-day encounters.

[Alistaroc]

The problem with that is that Song of the White Raven doesn't increase your uses of bardic music. If you're using your bardic music for IC and DFI already you won't have the daily uses to also drop in SFWD every combat.
I would have 10 or 6 daily uses before any feats.
And what's SFWD?Woops
So how many would you say I need? I don't really see that as a huge problem.

EDIT: How good would Bard 3/Marshal 1 be? I could either give everybody massive flanking bonuses, or I could try Motivate Charisma to boost my own Perform. Although, now that I think about it, can you do anything useful with Perform?

[Dread_Head]

I would have 10 or 6 daily uses before any feats.
And what's SFWD?Woops
So how many would you say I need? I don't really see that as a huge problem.

EDIT: How good would Bard 3/Marshal 1 be? I could either give everybody massive flanking bonuses, or I could try Motivate Charisma to boost my own Perform. Although, now that I think about it, can you do anything useful with Perform?

Generally the 4th level of bard is taken for 2nd level spells and the extra point of BAB. Marshal would lose both of those things for boost to a minor thing. If you are using fractional BAB then the Marshal level rises in value somewhat but still compares unfavourably to the 2nd level spell(s) you'd get from more bard.

Inspire Awe makes opponents shaken if they fail a will save of DC equal to your perform check result. Could be an interesting choice instead of inspire courage if combined with other fear stacking tricks. Inspire Courage is probably better for a gish style build though.

[Alistaroc]

Generally the 4th level of bard is taken for 2nd level spells and the extra point of BAB. Marshal would lose both of those things for boost to a minor thing. If you are using fractional BAB then the Marshal level rises in value somewhat but still compares unfavourably to the 2nd level spell(s) you'd get from more bard.

Inspire Awe makes opponents shaken if they fail a will save of DC equal to your perform check result. Could be an interesting choice instead of inspire courage if combined with other fear stacking tricks. Inspire Courage is probably better for a gish style build though.
Would you recommend War Chanter 5 for more uses of Bardic Music and more songs, or Seeker of the Song 2 to cram more Crusader levels in?

[Dread_Head]

Would you recommend War Chanter 5 for more uses of Bardic Music and more songs, or Seeker of the Song 2 to cram more Crusader levels in?

Although both grant extra uses of bardic music neither progress your bardic music abilities. So the longer you stay in the classes the more hindered your inspire courage becomes. Whereas with Song of the White Raven your Crusader levels progress inspire courage. Therefore I would suggest Seeker of the Song as it is a shorter dip. Also note that War chanter has pretty terrible prerequisites so unless you gain them for free or were taking them anyway I would steer clear. For the same number of feats you can enter Seeker of the Song and take Extra Music to more than make up for the uses you lose.

I assume you want them for gaining the Combine Songs ability, which songs in particular are you wanting to combine?

[Alistaroc]

Although both grant extra uses of bardic music neither progress your bardic music abilities. So the longer you stay in the classes the more hindered your inspire courage becomes. Whereas with Song of the White Raven your Crusader levels progress inspire courage. Therefore I would suggest Seeker of the Song as it is a shorter dip. Also note that War chanter has pretty terrible prerequisites so unless you gain them for free or were taking them anyway I would steer clear. For the same number of feats you can enter Seeker of the Song and take Extra Music to more than make up for the uses you lose.

I assume you want them for gaining the Combine Songs ability, which songs in particular are you wanting to combine?
So despite them advancing uses per day, they don't advance the music itself?:smallconfused: This sounds like the kind of thing DMs waive.

I figured I could run either Inspire Courage+Dragonfire Inspiration or double up on either one.

[Dread_Head]

So despite them advancing uses per day, they don't advance the music itself?:smallconfused: This sounds like the kind of thing DMs waive.

I figured I could run either Inspire Courage+Dragonfire Inspiration or double up on either one.

Well War Chanter explicitly only advances uses per day

War chanter levels stack with bard levels for the purpose of determining how often a character can use war chanter music or bardic music. War chanter levels do not stack with bard levels for determining which songs a bard has access to.
and Seeker of the Song only mentions advancing uses per day, nothing about anything else which in d&d usually means nothing else advances

Seeker of the song levels stack with bard levels for purposes of determining how many daily uses of bardic music and seeker music the character has.

But if your DM rules with you then War Chanter improves a bit due to Inspire Recklessness being good. Still has the problems of two terrible feats as prereqs and crusader manoeuvres being better than anything it grants. Even if they don't advance bardic music abilities then there are other options that do such as Chaos Music and Vest of Legends.

Since Dragonfire Inspiration is a variant Inspire Courage your DM might not let you activate both at once, talk to them about that. If you can't use both in the same turn then only Inspire Greatness (which you don't get in your current build) and some of the higher level WC or SotS songs are worth using in combat so its probably not worth the levels to get combine songs.

[Alistaroc]

Well War Chanter explicitly only advances uses per day

and Seeker of the Song only mentions advancing uses per day, nothing about anything else which in d&d usually means nothing else advances


But if your DM rules with you then War Chanter improves a bit due to Inspire Recklessness being good. Still has the problems of two terrible feats as prereqs and crusader manoeuvres being better than anything it grants. Even if they don't advance bardic music abilities then there are other options that do such as Chaos Music and Vest of Legends.

Since Dragonfire Inspiration is a variant Inspire Courage your DM might not let you activate both at once, talk to them about that. If you can't use both in the same turn then only Inspire Greatness (which you don't get in your current build) and some of the higher level WC or SotS songs are worth using in combat so its probably not worth the levels to get combine songs.
So what I'm getting from this is;
If DM says Combine Song works with DFI+IC, go Bard->Crusader->SotS->Crusader, and if not, just go Bard->Crusader

Or is there something I can throw in to make a better DFI Bardsader?

[Dread_Head]

So what I'm getting from this is;
If DM says Combine Song works with DFI+IC, go Bard->Crusader->SotS->Crusader, and if not, just go Bard->Crusader

Or is there something I can throw in to make a better DFI Bardsader?

That is what I'd suggest, both are strong builds but the second slightly less so. I can't really think of any other PrCs to use, just make sure to include as many of these tricks to boost IC as you feel appropriate. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830)

[sleepyphoenixx]

So what I'm getting from this is;
If DM says Combine Song works with DFI+IC, go Bard->Crusader->SotS->Crusader, and if not, just go Bard->Crusader

Or is there something I can throw in to make a better DFI Bardsader?

You don't really need Combine Song for IC+DFI. Most fights don't last the 5 rounds the song lingers after playing. If yours somehow do you're better off going for more damage to resolve things quicker instead of increasing the duration of your music.
If you're really worried about it spend a feat on Lingering Song instead.

[Alistaroc]

That is what I'd suggest, both are strong builds but the second slightly less so. I can't really think of any other PrCs to use, just make sure to include as many of these tricks to boost IC as you feel appropriate. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830)
What do you think of the Heartfire Fanner mentioned therein? It can be taken at level 7, and looks to me like a decent 5 levels.
Bard 3/Crusader 3/Heartfire Fanner 5/Seeker of the Song 2/Crusader 7 looks like it'd use the Heartfire abilities nicely with DFI, and still grab an 8th level maneuver.


You don't really need Combine Song for IC+DFI. Most fights don't last the 5 rounds the song lingers after playing. If yours somehow do you're better off going for more damage to resolve things quicker instead of increasing the duration of your music.
If you're really worried about it spend a feat on Lingering Song instead.
:smallconfused:Combine Song is to play two songs at once, not to get the lingering rounds. I'm not worried about duration.

[Alistaroc]

It looks to me, arguably the below build gains Inspire Greatness, and can then use the Necklace of Muses, also in Dragon 314, to grant 2-5 feats to anyone affected by Inspire Greatness.

Bard 4/Crusader 3/Heartfire Fanner 5/Seeker of the Song 2/Crusader 6

[Dread_Head]

What do you think of the Heartfire Fanner mentioned therein? It can be taken at level 7, and looks to me like a decent 5 levels.
Bard 3/Crusader 3/Heartfire Fanner 5/Seeker of the Song 2/Crusader 7 looks like it'd use the Heartfire abilities nicely with DFI, and still grab an 8th level maneuver.


Heartfire Fanner is an excellent PrC, somewhat let down though by the terribly prerequisites. If you are going SotS anyway though you only need spend one more feat. The other problem is that it is a dragon mag PrC which some DMs don't allow. If yours does then this is a very solid build if you can afford the feats for prerequisites, remember you are also looking at some combination of Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the white Raven, Song of the Heart and potentially Snowflake Wardance. It progresses your casting all the way up to third level spells as well!

And you would gain Inspire Greatness from your amended build.

[Keld Denar]

SFWD is also not that great for Bardscaders or Bardblades because of MAD. As either of those Bard blends, you really don't need a Cha greater than 11 or 12. You are better off spending your PB on Str, Con, Dex, and maybe Int for Bardblades. Unless you have wicked high stats, you don't really need Cha on a Bardscader. You have like, 1-2 abilities that are tied to Cha, and nothing really Bardy that ties to it either except the bonus 1st level spell at Cha 12. Even if you have a Cha 16, its still only a +3 bonus to hit without serious investment in cash. Bards seldom need the extra help to hit.

[Alistaroc]

SFWD is also not that great for Bardscaders or Bardblades because of MAD. As either of those Bard blends, you really don't need a Cha greater than 11 or 12. You are better off spending your PB on Str, Con, Dex, and maybe Int for Bardblades. Unless you have wicked high stats, you don't really need Cha on a Bardscader. You have like, 1-2 abilities that are tied to Cha, and nothing really Bardy that ties to it either except the bonus 1st level spell at Cha 12. Even if you have a Cha 16, its still only a +3 bonus to hit without serious investment in cash. Bards seldom need the extra help to hit.
Now that the build makes use of Heartfire Fanner and Seeker of the Song, Charisma is going to be pumped as high as possible, which makes SFWD worth it just as a sort of throw-in for a little self sufficiency. And I do seem to recall hearing about some way to "transfer" attack bonuses to allies, which would make this great to pump up a Power Attacker even further. If I can find it. :smallannoyed:

[Keld Denar]

I dunno, I think HFF and SotS really dilute the initiator portion. You don't want to lose that many ILs. That build loses 6 ILs, which ends up with a total IL of 14, which only allows for 7th level maneuvers (missing out on the 8th level stances) plus spends most of the glory levels (8-12) with the same maneuvers it had at 7.

Plus MAD.