Would Rogues and Shadow Monks excel in the underdark? or be completely useless?

[BladeWing81]

I'm going to play "Out of the abyss" next weekend and I was thinking of making a Way of the Shadow Monk thinking it will be awesome since most of the time we'll be on dark caves and such... but then it dawnned on me that most of the creatures will probably have darkvision or tremorvision or echolocation or something similar to that. if soo... wouldn't a shadow monk be completly useless if she can be detected anyway?

[SharkForce]

I'm going to play "Out of the abyss" next weekend and I was thinking of making a Way of the Shadow Monk thinking it will be awesome since most of the time we'll be on dark caves and such... but then it dawnned on me that most of the creatures will probably have darkvision or tremorvision or echolocation or something similar to that. if soo... wouldn't a shadow monk be completly useless if she can be detected anyway?

you eventually get at-will invisibility when in darkness, so darkvision won't do anything to prevent that.

some enemies will be quite good at detecting hidden creatures (though i have not noticed any of the abilities like tremorsense etc specifying that they automatically detect hiding creatures; you'd still need something that qualifies as cover or obscures your location to their sense to hide behind, presumably, but there is no rule anywhere that i've seen which tells you that hiding doesn't work, so by default it should still work, *provided you can obtain a viable means of obscuring their special sense* of course. fog clouds may even actually provide some limited assistance against sound-based senses (fog does, after all, deaden sound), with DM's discretion.

as to the others, shadow monk is great at stealth, but they also still have all of the regular monk abilities.

[BladeWing81]

you eventually get at-will invisibility when in darkness, so darkvision won't do anything to prevent that.

some enemies will be quite good at detecting hidden creatures (though i have not noticed any of the abilities like tremorsense etc specifying that they automatically detect hiding creatures; you'd still need something that qualifies as cover or obscures your location to their sense to hide behind, presumably, but there is no rule anywhere that i've seen which tells you that hiding doesn't work, so by default it should still work, *provided you can obtain a viable means of obscuring their special sense* of course. fog clouds may even actually provide some limited assistance against sound-based senses (fog does, after all, deaden sound), with DM's discretion.

as to the others, shadow monk is great at stealth, but they also still have all of the regular monk abilities.

I hope you're right, although my DM is kind of an a-hole that loves making things harder for us and will probably say that darkness and hiding won't help. I wish Shadow monks had Cunning action to do some stick and move maneuvers without having to use ki.

[Paeleus]

I would say playing a Shadow Monk would be perfect. AFB right now, but can't you teleport 60' or something through shadows at level 6? Aren't a number of baddies in the Underdark poison damage based? Monk immunities later on help with that (if the campaign goes that long). Plus Stunning Strike from the base class is just downright amazing, so I vote a big, fat YES.

[BladeWing81]

I would say playing a Shadow Monk would be perfect. AFB right now, but can't you teleport 60' or something through shadows at level 6? Aren't a number of baddies in the Underdark poison damage based? Monk immunities later on help with that (if the campaign goes that long). Plus Stunning Strike from the base class is just downright amazing, so I vote a big, fat YES.

If I stay Alive throughout, the book goes up to lvl 15 so yeah purity of body hits at lvl 10 along with evasion at lvl 7 so when I survive up to that point I should be golden, probably making a wood elf shadow monk to also get darkvision which will probably help on that regard as well.

[kaoskonfety]

I'd go with

In part: "ask your DM" - this is more a function of the hide rules being more DM driven in this edition than the usual fare "can I walk softly enough to avoid tremor sense" is a DM question (unless the description of the ability makes it very clear.

In part: expect a few rude surprises, as you have outlined, things with senses you do not have will be around, blind sight and tremor sense are both hard to work around. But you should be able to hide "normally" from dark vision and alot of the Shadow Monk tricks just require darkness.

And then I'd say give it a whirl and have fun.

[L Space]

I'm currently running the Out of the Abyss campaign for my group and I will say that there are several creatures with things like blindsight or tremorsense (and darkvision of course). Personally I still have them use Perception to spot a character using Stealth, with possible advantage/disadvantage depending on the situation. That being said, I would still suggest clarifying how your DM will handle that.

[BladeWing81]

I'm currently running the Out of the Abyss campaign for my group and I will say that there are several creatures with things like blindsight or tremorsense (and darkvision of course). Personally I still have them use Perception to spot a character using Stealth, with possible advantage/disadvantage depending on the situation. That being said, I would still suggest clarifying how your DM will handle that.

MMmmm hard to say, We're talking about a guy that used the blue dragon breath and killed my whole group of lvl 1 characters and magically gave langdedrosa Cyanwrath a legendary action even though I knew he doesn't have that ability becuase I've DMed the first chapter of hoard of the dragon Queen. and decided my monk can't use two handed quarter staff unless it's with strength completely nerfing me out of my only good attack.
But my guess is that I will never make a surprise attack, all enemies will see me and stealth checks will be against DC 20 from lvl 1 and go up from there.

1 of only three certified adventure league DM's in my town and the only one of the three that brought the adventure bok before you ask why we let him DM.

[L Space]

MMmmm hard to say, We're talking about a guy that used the blue dragon breath and killed my whole group of lvl 1 characters and magically gave langdedrosa Cyanwrath a legendary action even though I knew he doesn't have that ability becuase I've DMed the first chapter of hoard of the dragon Queen. and decided my monk can't use two handed quarter staff unless it's with strength completely nerfing me out of my only good attack.
But my guess is that I will never make a surprise attack, all enemies will see me and stealth checks will be against DC 20 from lvl 1 and go up from there.

1 of only three certified adventure league DM's in my town and the only one of the three that brought the adventure bok before you ask why we let him DM.

Ugh, that does not sound fun at all. The DC 20 Stealth check (if he does end up doing that) sounds particularly awful, Stealth checks should always be made versus either the opposed or passive Perception check of a creature IMO. Like I said, I could see giving advantage or disadvantage depending what senses the creature has or the particular situation, but a DC 20 would just be ridiculous.

[Temperjoke]

MMmmm hard to say, We're talking about a guy that used the blue dragon breath and killed my whole group of lvl 1 characters and magically gave langdedrosa Cyanwrath a legendary action even though I knew he doesn't have that ability becuase I've DMed the first chapter of hoard of the dragon Queen. and decided my monk can't use two handed quarter staff unless it's with strength completely nerfing me out of my only good attack.
But my guess is that I will never make a surprise attack, all enemies will see me and stealth checks will be against DC 20 from lvl 1 and go up from there.

1 of only three certified adventure league DM's in my town and the only one of the three that brought the adventure bok before you ask why we let him DM.

Sounds like a real winner there. And the quarterstaff was ruled that it's a monk weapon, especially since the PHB uses the quarterstaff as an example of a monk weapon, so that makes him an even bigger ass.

[kaoskonfety]

Taking a closer look at blind sight I'd see it being case by case calls at my table.

Some creatures have it outlined as scent (Grimlocks), echo location (bats) or just bizarrely good senses across the board (dragons).

Hiding in the blind sight range of the first 2 is an exercise in being un-obvious to the alternate sense - masking your odor or generating cover with a stink bomb, for echo location using the environment to avoid appearing as a discreet object - stay on the walls, under the water or just try to be a bump on the floor. Doing this while also not being seen to more conventional senses is an exercise for the rogue.

Against say a dragons "super-keen everything sense" I'd be likely to have you roll at disadvantage, and the dragon with advantage. - So if you can figure a way to give yourself advantage (obscuring yourself from all of the creatures senses +) and the dragon disadvantage (say seriously distracted, like a party of adventurers attacking it, or a cave in, in its lair) its a 'fair' roll. Still a HARD roll, but come on, you are trying to sneak up on Smaug.

[BladeWing81]

Sounds like a real winner there. And the quarterstaff was ruled that it's a monk weapon, especially since the PHB uses the quarterstaff as an example of a monk weapon, so that makes him an even bigger ass.

OH! he knows it's a Monk weapon, but he "feels" that using two hands for the versatile side of it should use strength instead of Dexterity for the attack so only 1d6 for quarterstaff but I'm lvl 6 now so my punches already do that so I no longer use quarterstaff.

[BladeWing81]

Taking a closer look at blind sight I'd see it being case by case calls at my table.

Some creatures have it outlined as scent (Grimlocks), echo location (bats) or just bizarrely good senses across the board (dragons).

Hiding in the blind sight range of the first 2 is an exercise in being un-obvious to the alternate sense - masking your odor or generating cover with a stink bomb, for echo location using the environment to avoid appearing as a discreet object - stay on the walls, under the water or just try to be a bump on the floor. Doing this while also not being seen to more conventional senses is an exercise for the rogue.


Those are all good tips, I was also thinking of using pebbles to distrack people on the underdark, also Shadow Monks get "pass without trace" so that will help out incredibly.

[BladeWing81]

Ugh, that does not sound fun at all. The DC 20 Stealth check (if he does end up doing that) sounds particularly awful, Stealth checks should always be made versus either the opposed or passive Perception check of a creature IMO. Like I said, I could see giving advantage or disadvantage depending what senses the creature has or the particular situation, but a DC 20 would just be ridiculous.

I'm probably exagerating a bit but I can really almost see him in my mind telling us everytime we try to stealth "X" creature has advantage on perseption becuase they live in complete darkness or something like that. once we finish a couple of fights with little or no damage, some how the game beging to be harder and harder and kobolds stop having daggers and magically start getting shortswords and +6 to hit all of a sudden, stuff like that.

[Malifice]

you eventually get at-will invisibility when in darkness, so darkvision won't do anything to prevent that.

some enemies will be quite good at detecting hidden creatures (though i have not noticed any of the abilities like tremorsense etc specifying that they automatically detect hiding creatures; you'd still need something that qualifies as cover or obscures your location to their sense to hide behind, presumably, but there is no rule anywhere that i've seen which tells you that hiding doesn't work, so by default it should still work, *provided you can obtain a viable means of obscuring their special sense* of course. fog clouds may even actually provide some limited assistance against sound-based senses (fog does, after all, deaden sound), with DM's discretion.

as to the others, shadow monk is great at stealth, but they also still have all of the regular monk abilities.

You're not in darkness relative to a creature with darkvision.

They see an invisible monk just fine.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm probably exagerating a bit but I can really almost see him in my mind telling us everytime we try to stealth "X" creature has advantage on perseption becuase they live in complete darkness or something like that. once we finish a couple of fights with little or no damage, some how the game beging to be harder and harder and kobolds stop having daggers and magically start getting shortswords and +6 to hit all of a sudden, stuff like that.So... there's this competitive dungeon crawler board game called Descent. It's fun. It doesn't have to involve this jerk. Just sayin'.

[SharkForce]

You're not in darkness relative to a creature with darkvision.

They see an invisible monk just fine.

no. the ability triggers off of the presence or absence of darkness, not the presence or absence of obscurement.

regular stealth, you're going to need something other than shadows for cover against a person with darkvision. for a shadow monk, when it is dark they can turn invisible. darkvision will help you see them right up until they turn invisible, and at that point you need the ability to see invisible creatures (though if you also have that ability, you will indeed be able to spot the shadow monk through the darkness).

this has nothing to do with finding a good hiding place. for a shadow monk, any and all shadows are a source of supernatural power that allows you to become invisible, whether someone can see you or not, just as their ability to teleport does not rely on whether anyone can see them or not, but rather the presence or absence of light. no light = unlimited use invisibility.

[kaoskonfety]

You're not in darkness relative to a creature with darkvision.

They see an invisible monk just fine.

....

....

What?

I'm away from my books, and I'm not in the habit of of challenging what could be a DM ruling/ opinion, but this feels... incorrect on a fundamental level. The ability to see in the dark does not make it "not dark" and dark vision does not override a class ability granting invisibility.

- ninja'd

[Malifice]

....

....

What?

I'm away from my books, and I'm not in the habit of of challenging what could be a DM ruling/ opinion, but this feels... incorrect on a fundamental level. The ability to see in the dark does not make it "not dark" and dark vision does not override a class ability granting invisibility.

- ninja'd

I would have thought darkness is to de determined relative to the observer.

Like... If you stand in front of a creature with darkvision underground - you're not standing in darkness. It can see you perfectly fine.

Darkness is a relative thing. Not an objective thing.

[SharkForce]

I would have thought darkness is to de determined relative to the observer.

Like... If you stand in front of a creature with darkvision underground - you're not standing in darkness. It can see you perfectly fine.

Darkness is a relative thing. Not an objective thing.

no, it isn't.

if i put on night vision goggles, it is still dark. no matter how much i insist that it is not dark, it is still dark. i can see clearly (or at least, relatively clearly). but it is still dark. just like no matter what the climate conditions are inside your house, the weather is not determined by what you are experiencing, no matter how well you see in the darkness, it is still dark. your ability or inability to see in said darkness has no effect on whether or not it is dark. if anything, the fact that it explicity says you can see things in darkness means that the darkness is still there.

based on your interpretation, upon entering a dark area, your darkvision would turn on... and then immediately turn off, because you can see and therefore it is no longer dark. and then turn back on, because it is dark again. and then turn off, because it is not. and so on. but that interpretation is patently absurd, as the entire function of the ability is to let you see in the dark, which could never work if dark means you cannot see.

darkness is a very much objective thing. it can be measured and quantified scientifically. the dictionary definition (at least, the ones not referring to when it is used to describe something evil, as in, "the forces of darkness") is that it is an absence of light, not vision.

[EvanescentHero]

Darkness is a relative thing. Not an objective thing.

Not in the rules. If you are in darkness, you can turn invisible. Period. End of story.

Would you also restrict a shadow monk's ability to teleport while in darkness because a creature with darkvision can see them?

[Malifice]

no, it isn't.

if i put on night vision goggles, it is still dark. no matter how much i insist that it is not dark, it is still dark. i can see clearly (or at least, relatively clearly). but it is still dark. just like no matter what the climate conditions are inside your house, the weather is not determined by what you are experiencing, no matter how well you see in the darkness, it is still dark. your ability or inability to see in said darkness has no effect on whether or not it is dark. if anything, the fact that it explicity says you can see things in darkness means that the darkness is still there.

based on your interpretation, upon entering a dark area, your darkvision would turn on... and then immediately turn off, because you can see and therefore it is no longer dark. and then turn back on, because it is dark again. and then turn off, because it is not. and so on. but that interpretation is patently absurd, as the entire function of the ability is to let you see in the dark, which could never work if dark means you cannot see.

darkness is a very much objective thing. it can be measured and quantified scientifically. the dictionary definition (at least, the ones not referring to when it is used to describe something evil, as in, "the forces of darkness") is that it is an absence of light, not vision.

What are you on about? Darkness is subjective depending on the observer, just like time and space and electrons.

Darkness isn't a thing. It's the absence of a thing. From a human perspecrive.

And yes - if you wear night vision goggles there isn't any darkness relative to you. You can see perfectly fine, including seeing anything hiding in the darkness that existed before you put on the goggles.

[Malifice]

Not in the rules. If you are in darkness, you can turn invisible. Period. End of story.

Would you also restrict a shadow monk's ability to teleport while in darkness because a creature with darkvision can see them?

Teleport should work fine. I assume teleport works due to the amount of ligjt present. Once there is a sufficient lack of light they can do it.

Are we saying that the ability to turn invisible is a consequence of the available ambient light, and not a consequence of the observers ability to see in that light?

That makes more sense I guess.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

a creature with darkvision can see in darkness as if the darkness were dim lightThe creature is in darkness, which is defined in game terms by the absence of light just above this entry.

[illyrus]

Stealth is one of those things I've noticed tends to be GM dependent based often on how much a GM likes/dislikes the concept of sneaky characters.

Stealth, charm, and illusion tend to be the big ones that I've had wildly different experiences with at a table depending upon the GM. If I have a feeling the GM dislikes the PCs using one of those 3 then I avoid concepts that rely on them like the plague. Easier for me to go with a secondary idea than spend half the campaign frustrated or arguing with the GM.

[EvanescentHero]

Are we saying that the ability to turn invisible is a consequence of the available ambient light, and not a consequence of the observers ability to see in that light?

Yes. Obviously. Both abilities work while the monk is in darkness, not while the monk cannot be seen. That's what the rules say. Not "while hidden," but "when you are in an area of dim light or darkness." PHB page 80.

Dim light and darkness are defined, in-game terms, and abilities are designed around them. To key a shadow monk's abilities off of being seen or not, as opposed to being in darkness or not, is to fundamentally alter how the class functions, and in this case is nothing but a nerf.

Additionally, ruling that you can teleport, but not turn invisible, under the exact same conditions, when the rules text provides exactly the same requirements for activating the abilities, is wildly inconsistent.

[Nishant]

Yes. Obviously. Both abilities work while the monk is in darkness, not while the monk cannot be seen. That's what the rules say. Not "while hidden," but "when you are in an area of dim light or darkness." PHB page 80.

Dim light and darkness are defined, in-game terms, and abilities are designed around them. To key a shadow monk's abilities off of being seen or not, as opposed to being in darkness or not, is to fundamentally alter how the class functions, and in this case is nothing but a nerf.

Additionally, ruling that you can teleport, but not turn invisible, under the exact same conditions, when the rules text provides exactly the same requirements for activating the abilities, is wildly inconsistent.

This.

Honestly, this feels like a 'drop the DM' issue. Would you keep the barbarian from raging because someone across the hall is playing soothing music on a harp? Or a cleric from using spells because they're in an unholy place or in another God's temple? If the answer is no, then why would you take away monk weapons and signature abilities for a subclass. He may be the DM, and rule 0 is a thing, but he's not being responsible with it.

Edit: Also, yeah, Decent is pretty solid.

[SharkForce]

What are you on about? Darkness is subjective depending on the observer, just like time and space and electrons.

Darkness isn't a thing. It's the absence of a thing. From a human perspecrive.

And yes - if you wear night vision goggles there isn't any darkness relative to you. You can see perfectly fine, including seeing anything hiding in the darkness that existed before you put on the goggles.

darkness is not subjective depending on the observer.

if I am standing underneath a large umbrella and you are not and there is rain falling from the sky, is it raining for you but not for me?

being able to see in darkness only does anything if something can be in darkness in spite of seeing in it. otherwise, your ability to see in darkness makes it not dark, which makes your ability not do anything, which makes it dark, which makes your ability kick in, which makes it not dark, which makes your ability stop, which makes it dark, which makes your ability kick in *again* and then it's not dark again, and so on, which is far too silly to assume they intended anything to work like that.

[Sigreid]

What are you on about? Darkness is subjective depending on the observer, just like time and space and electrons.

Darkness isn't a thing. It's the absence of a thing. From a human perspecrive.

And yes - if you wear night vision goggles there isn't any darkness relative to you. You can see perfectly fine, including seeing anything hiding in the darkness that existed before you put on the goggles.

You are basically arguing that a supernatural power works based on who is present.

[Reosoul]

I had this come up in a game I was DMing, basically, where a 'Shadow' creature straight from the MM, hid in a dark corner and an Elf with Dark Vision attempted to catch it with her perception.

From my understanding, Dark Vision is described as seeing the world in a mix of blacks and whites, drained of color, but catching stuff like texture and shape. If you're looking for a Shadow, a shadow monk, or something that literally blends itself into the shadows and no longer takes a visual form(i.e. Invisible), wouldn't you then just not be able to perceive it? Even with dark vision. I mean, all it takes is throwing a torch in the corner, but Darkvision really isn't that good.

[MeeposFire]

Darkness does not change in relation to the viewer.

Remember the monk ability is not based on whether you can be seen but whether you are in darkness or not. The ability asks whether the monk is in various levels or darkness and not whether the enemy has trouble seeing you due to the darkness.

Also note that darvision as described in the rules does not remove darkness it just allows you to see in it but it is still dark. The vision even allows you to see differently depending on how dark it is.

[Malifice]

Yes. Obviously. Both abilities work while the monk is in darkness, not while the monk cannot be seen. That's what the rules say. Not "while hidden," but "when you are in an area of dim light or darkness." PHB page 80.

Dim light and darkness are defined, in-game terms, and abilities are designed around them. To key a shadow monk's abilities off of being seen or not, as opposed to being in darkness or not, is to fundamentally alter how the class functions, and in this case is nothing but a nerf.

Additionally, ruling that you can teleport, but not turn invisible, under the exact same conditions, when the rules text provides exactly the same requirements for activating the abilities, is wildly inconsistent.

I agree, you're right.

It relies on the absence of light as an objective external phenomenon, not the absence of darkness (the subjective perception).


Darkness does not change in relation to the viewer.

It most definately does. To a blind person, the world is shrouded in darkness. To a cat however....

The question is 'Does the ability rely on darkness relative to the observer, or a state of objective darkness [defined as the lack of light photons] regardless of ones ability to percieve in darkness'.

I initially said 'subjective' but I have been persuaded I was wrong.

[djreynolds]

I'm going to play "Out of the abyss" next weekend and I was thinking of making a Way of the Shadow Monk thinking it will be awesome since most of the time we'll be on dark caves and such... but then it dawnned on me that most of the creatures will probably have darkvision or tremorvision or echolocation or something similar to that. if soo... wouldn't a shadow monk be completly useless if she can be detected anyway?

There is a cool part in Starless Night where Artemis creeps into the Baenre Compound. And they talk about how he is a master of shadows, because it was lighted there near the fence. So its not always "dark" in the under-dark.

[BladeWing81]

There is a cool part in Starless Night where Artemis creeps into the Baenre Compound. And they talk about how he is a master of shadows, because it was lighted there near the fence. So its not always "dark" in the under-dark.

Completely agree with that, obviously it can't be all dark otherwise playing characters without darkvision would be imposible, BUT! all I'm saying is since the adventure takes place mostly on subterranean locations it is safe so assume that it will be easier to stick to shadows and darkness in the "into the abyss" adventure which would theoretically be a great boon for a shadow monk.