How could I make the best possible "Zeratul"?

[SangoProduction]

http://heroesofthestorm.gamepedia.com/Zeratul

Level: indeterminate. Assume what ever level works best for your build. (Perhaps let's go 20.)
LA buy off is an option, but no more than +2 in LA. (Often that's the best I could sneak past any GM in my past...as if I ever wanted more LA. Losing levels for racial abilities feels very...bleh.)
Clearly going in to a full caster (lvl 9 spells) class automatically solves everything, so if possible, avoid those.
And by "best" I mean both imitates the character, and is effective.
3.5 and PF is legal.

I was thinking the shadow template for the total concealment in anything but daylight to simulate his stealth. If the LA was a concern, I would go with Dark instead (the newer version that removes all requirements for hide, but still). They are rather thematic, and matches the crunch needed (with Shadow being closer to the Star Craft version, and Dark being closer to the Heroes of the Storm version).

As for the base race...can't really decide. He kinda looks like a changeling, but never uses stuff similar to the changeling. Maybe the best I could do is go human and try to get it "refluffed"?

My first thought for the class was the "Soul Blade" or whatever that psionic class is, but it's pretty bad, and I'm not assuming homebrew is available. So, doesn't the Warlock have something to turn their blast in to a melee thing? It can be refluffed as always being there. If we went Warlock, then we also effectively account for the "Singularity Spike" ability all in one, and we get free darkness to let us hide as we please.

What we have left: the teleportation, and the area time stop.

The D&D time stop doesn't work for this purpose, because it stops all of the world (or rather, speeds you up), and Void Prison only slows a relatively small area, allowing everything else to move freely. What could be used?

As for the teleportation: it takes virtually no time in the game, and can attack immediately after exiting. Dimension Door takes a standard action, so is a bit too slow, but I believe there is a feat chain that improves it in Pathfinder. Not sure though, nor exactly how to get Dimension Door without going with a full caster class (or shadowdancer, but that's 3 feat tax and 4 level tax minimum...or monk but we don't talk about that around these parts).

[Krios]

Zeratul (from my somewhat limited experience) is permanently invisible, teleports around, and can stun people.

That's just an Incantatrix.

Persist some version of invisibility (greater or higher is required) and dimension jumper, and cast a spell that stuns people.

For a less broken build, Anima Mage works just as well. You get to persist a bunch of spells and also get some abilities from vestiges that are pretty good.

[SangoProduction]

Zeratul (from my somewhat limited experience) is permanently invisible, teleports around, and can stun people.

That's just an Incantatrix.

Persist some version of invisibility (greater or higher is required) and dimension jumper, and cast a spell that stuns people.

For a less broken build, Anima Mage works just as well. You get to persist a bunch of spells and also get some abilities from vestiges that are pretty good.

Yes. I know full casters can do everything and more. I did say that. But it kind of ruins the fun of coming up with something that would work for the build.

[OldTrees1]

This certainly sounds like Psionics and since you give bonus points for non full casters: Psychic Warrior(Soulbound Weapon for the Soulblade)

Obviously you would augment psionic invisibility/teleporting/stunning with magic items(Ring of Invisibility, Ring of Blinking, and Dimension Stride Boots come quickly to mind)

I might suggest well timed levels in Swordsage to pick up more of the same from the Shadow Hand discipline.

[Blackhawk748]

I see him as a Human Swordsage. Human mostly because you can just refluff it to look like a Protoss and the extra feat is always nice.

Swordsage gives you the rapid teleport, invisibility and the other various stealth things you need. If you want "local time stop" i recommend Haste, as mechanically it just lets you go faster which is similar to making them go slower, you could go Jade Phoenix Mage.

[OldTrees1]

As for the teleportation: it takes virtually no time in the game, and can attack immediately after exiting. Dimension Door takes a standard action, so is a bit too slow, but I believe there is a feat chain that improves it in Pathfinder. Not sure though, nor exactly how to get Dimension Door without going with a full caster class (or shadowdancer, but that's 3 feat tax and 4 level tax minimum...or monk but we don't talk about that around these parts).

This reminds me of ShadowPounce(Telflammar Shadowlord 4)

[SangoProduction]

This certainly sounds like Psionics and since you give bonus points for non full casters: Psychic Warrior(Soulbound Weapon for the Soulblade)

Obviously you would augment psionic invisibility/teleporting/stunning with magic items(Ring of Invisibility, Ring of Blinking, and Dimension Stride Boots come quickly to mind)

I might suggest well timed levels in Swordsage to pick up more of the same from the Shadow Hand discipline.

Ring of Blinking does kinda work, as does DSB. DSB is still requiring Standard action, but it could be decent.

And indeed, Psionics was my first idea. I forgot about the Psychic Warrior. Good point about the Shadow Hand discipline.

[SangoProduction]

I see him as a Human Swordsage. Human mostly because you can just refluff it to look like a Protoss and the extra feat is always nice.

Swordsage gives you the rapid teleport, invisibility and the other various stealth things you need. If you want "local time stop" i recommend Haste, as mechanically it just lets you go faster which is similar to making them go slower, you could go Jade Phoenix Mage.

Yeah. That could work. I don't see what Jade Phoenix Mage would give me, however (other than caster and maneuver levels).


This reminds me of ShadowPounce(Telflammar Shadowlord 4)

Yeah, that's still got the 4 feat tax, but spring attack can emulate the "cleave" ability, so I'll say it's only really 3 feat tax, and assuming you can meet the prereqs, it's not bad for our purposes.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah. That could work. I don't see what Jade Phoenix Mage would give me, however (other than caster and maneuver levels).

Thats exactly what its giving you, the spells cover what your maneuvers cant, mostly Haste.

[OldTrees1]

Maybe something like:
Shadow Human Pychic Warrior 4 /Swordsage 1 / PW +2 / SS +1 / PW +4 / Telflammar shadowlord 4 / SS +1 / PW +3

This would get you 5th level manuevers, 5th level Powers, and too many teleport effects.

You would be invisible via your Template, Ring, Spell, and perhaps a Power too
You would teleport via your Boots/Anklets, Maneuvers, Dimension Door Power, and Shadowjump (and attack immediately afterwards)
You would stun via a Psionic Power
Your pouncing can result in multiple full attacks per round to simulate faster time (or use Haste)

[SangoProduction]

Maybe something like:
Shadow Human Pychic Warrior 4 /Swordsage 1 / PW +2 / SS +1 / PW +4 / Telflammar shadowlord 4 / SS +1 / PW +3

This would get you 5th level manuevers, 5th level Powers, and too many teleport effects.

You would be invisible via your Template, Ring, Spell, and perhaps a Power too
You would teleport via your Boots/Anklets, Maneuvers, Dimension Door Power, and Shadowjump (and attack immediately afterwards)
You would stun via a Psionic Power
Your pouncing can result in multiple full attacks per round to simulate faster time (or use Haste)

I like it.


Thats exactly what its giving you, the spells cover what your maneuvers cant, mostly Haste.

Hmm, yeah, true. And it probably won't be hard to allow a GM to allow the caster level to instead be manifester level.

[Nifft]

Mixing in some Totemist could also give you Move-action teleportation (via Blink Shirt), and one of the Souldmelds can stun jerks for 1d4 turns, plus you get some appropriately thematic visual elements if you make one of the claw powers look like his psi-blade thing.

Swordsage + Totemist could do all of his tricks, I bet. Some kind of dual-advancement Incarnum + Initiator PrC would be sweet.

[SangoProduction]

Mixing in some Totemist could also give you Move-action teleportation (via Blink Shirt), and one of the Souldmelds can stun jerks for 1d4 turns, plus you get some appropriately thematic visual elements if you make one of the claw powers look like his psi-blade thing.

Swordsage + Totemist could do all of his tricks, I bet. Some kind of dual-advancement Incarnum + Initiator PrC would be sweet.

Yeah. I was thinking totemist at first as well. I didn't know one of the soul melds could stun people (aside from that uber weak petrification thing) I'll have to look back over it.

[Nifft]

Yeah. I was thinking totemist at first as well. I didn't know one of the soul melds could stun people (aside from that uber weak petrification thing) I'll have to look back over it.

I'm thinking of the Frost Helm in specific:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217064-Soulmeld-List-by-Class-and-Slot

Sphinx Claws are nice for the Pounce effect.

[SangoProduction]

I'm thinking of the Frost Helm in specific:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217064-Soulmeld-List-by-Class-and-Slot

Sphinx Claws are nice for the Pounce effect.

Woah. 1 + 1 targets / essentia invested. Yeah, that definitely emulates the ultimate effect. [Admittedly, it gives a chance for the enemy to not be effected, and doesn't give them invulnerability, but that's probably about as close as you are getting with a non-full spell caster.]

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hit-And-Run Fighter would be useful, it gives +2 initiative and you add your Dex bonus to damage against flat-footed opponents. Only requires a single level of Fighter, so either use a dip for feats or get Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) from that.

Get one or two Warlock levels, for the Darkness and possibly Devil's Sight invocations, which count as spell-like abilities. Take the feat Blend Into Shadows in Drow of the Underdark, and spend a use of your at-will Darkness spell-like ability to make a hide check as a swift action. You can also spend a feat on At Home In The Deep to see through magical darkness, so you won't even need Devil's Sight.

I would recommend using the Shadow Creature template in Lords of Madness, which gives you Shadow Blend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm), so you're effectively invisible whenever you're in anything less than full daylight. Your Darkness ability from Warlock has good synergy with this. Get a small bone pendant, apply Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) to it, and wear it on a leather cord around your neck. Hire an NPC spellcaster to put Extended Deeper Darkness on the pendant at a caster level of 20th, which should cost you only 800 gp at the standard rate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell), and it will last forty years thanks to the unguent. You can hold the pendant in your mouth to block the darkness effect, but whenever you need to benefit from Shadow Blend you can 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out, and it will fall back into place hanging around your neck. Consider getting a Heightened Deeper Darkness from a caster with Earth Spell, so it has an effective spell level of 10th, which will cost you 2,000 gp and last only 20 years on the pendant, but it automatically overpowers any light spell of 9th level or lower.

An obvious build choice would be Swordsage with Shadow Blade and the Shadow Hand teleports. Something like Swordsage 1/ Hit-And-Run Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Warlock 1/ Swordsage 17 would be fine. Use the Xing Mongoose boosts with TWF, Swords of Subtlety, Craven, etc.

[SangoProduction]

Hit-And-Run Fighter would be useful, it gives +2 initiative and you add your Dex bonus to damage against flat-footed opponents. Only requires a single level of Fighter, so either use a dip for feats or get Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) from that.


Does that stack with the shadow hand feat which adds Dex bonus to damage all the time (while using certain weapons, I believe).

[Silva Stormrage]

Does that stack with the shadow hand feat which adds Dex bonus to damage all the time (while using certain weapons, I believe).

Untyped bonus so yes they stack.

[Sacrieur]

PF is legal?

Well that's easy.

Stalker 20.



Untyped bonus so yes they stack.

No they don't, because they come from the same source.

[SangoProduction]

No they don't, because they come from the same source.

What's the definition of "source" here? Feats? The attribute?

I'm not asking to be confrontational, but for future use.

[Sacrieur]

What's the definition of "source" here? Feats? The attribute?

I'm not asking to be confrontational, but for future use.

To quote Paizo's Creative Director:


Modifiers from ability scores aren't actually bonuses, strictly speaking. If they are, they're untyped bonuses—which means they stack with all other bonuses except themselves. Thus, if you have multiple things that say "Add your Dex modifier to this roll," you only get to add your Dex modifier once.

If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects. You don't get to add your Dexterity modifier more than once to CMB if it's already been included due to any other effect. SO! If you have Weapon Finesse... you'll only want to look at taking Fury's Fall if you're expecting to be using weapons you can't modify via Weapon Finesse to make trip attacks. Otherwise, Fury's Fall is a waste for you.

[SangoProduction]

OK, thanks. So specifically if anything references your ability modifiers, you can only get each ability modifier once. Good to know.

[TiaC]

OK, thanks. So specifically if anything references your ability modifiers, you can only get each ability modifier once. Good to know.
That's only the case in Pathfinder. If you are playing 3.5, that doesn't apply.

[Silva Stormrage]

That's only the case in Pathfinder. If you are playing 3.5, that doesn't apply.

Yes and since they are 3.5 sources I figured that they would stack...

[JW86]

Protoss makes me thinks of the Githzerai. +2 LA Race, but suits the theme and you did mention buyoff... and +6 Dex, +2 Wis is good for both Swordsage and Psychic Warrior. You also get a few flavourful SLAs/PLAs..

[Chronos]

Yeah, I was thinking gith, too, but I'm not sure the LA is worth it (especially when you'd be better served spending any LA on Dark or Shadow).

[Sacrieur]

That's only the case in Pathfinder. If you are playing 3.5, that doesn't apply.


Yes and since they are 3.5 sources I figured that they would stack...

While there isn't really a true answer for this in 3.5, the same logic Paizo uses still applies. Also, this logic is built around a rather dodgy reading of "source". As Sango pointed out above it isn't really clear, but there's no good reason to believe ability modifiers stack with themselves, as well.


Bonuses that have identical types don’t stack, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect.


Ability Modifier: The bonus or penalty associated with a particular ability score. Ability modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions involving the corresponding abilities.


Stacking: In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

An ability modifier is actually listed as a type of bonus in the SRD (rather than being untyped). Nonetheless, it's possible to argue they come from the same source; that is, how dexterous a character is. If at any time this bonus were applied in a different way it would have a different type.

I suppose the best way of looking at it is that an ability modifier is a type of bonus that is sometimes transformed into other types of bonuses when it's applied in a different way.

[Nifft]

If that stacking rule were applied to 3.5e, wouldn't it cut any possible value out of the Marshal's Motivate Charisma aura?

[Sacrieur]

If that stacking rule were applied to 3.5e, wouldn't it cut any possible value out of the Marshal's Motivate Charisma aura?

Nope, because the aura is a circumstance bonus:


All bonuses granted by a marshal's auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other.

[Nifft]

Nope, because the aura is a circumstance bonus:

Ah right, thanks!

I was only looking at the Aura table text, and missed that line.

[SangoProduction]

Yeah, the LA would not be worth it (normally), but, I checked with the new DM, seems LA will not be calculated in regards to xp requirements (although we will start at a lower level), so that probably means LA is a large deal more worth while, even if xp is handed out to everyone at the same rate (ie not adjusted for level), because you'd just level up faster.

But, for the purposes of this, do you think this "racial class" for the Githzerai is decent (at least for 1 level)? http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/githzerai-racial-class/index.html I think they are supposed to be used for the entirety of the level up process, as they eventually lose 2 class levels. But meh.

Also, I can't find the base Githzerai race. Does anyone have a link I may use?

[Sacrieur]

Why not Elan? They can basically look like whatever you want them to.

[Nifft]

Also, I can't find the base Githzerai race. Does anyone have a link I may use?

They're in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, but not the SRD.


http://i.imgur.com/UuVDcyx.jpg

[SangoProduction]

I kinda like Elan. And thanks for the screen shot.

[OldTrees1]

But, for the purposes of this, do you think this "racial class" for the Githzerai is decent (at least for 1 level)? http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/githzerai-racial-class/index.html I think they are supposed to be used for the entirety of the level up process, as they eventually lose 2 class levels. But meh.

That table does not allow exit. It merely shows you a spread out way of getting the racial traits in echange for delaying the +2LA to 2nd and 4th ECL respectively.

Use it(as in all 20 ECL) if and only if you need to be a Githserai at ECL 1-3 rather than starting at 4+.

[SangoProduction]

That table does not allow exit. It merely shows you a spread out way of getting the racial traits in echange for delaying the +2LA to 2nd and 4th ECL respectively.

Use it(as in all 20 ECL) if and only if you need to be a Githserai at ECL 1-3 rather than starting at 4+.

Yeah, I thought that was how it was supposed to work.