Schlock Mercenary VI: Eat It, Kill It, Make Friends With It, Take a Bath in It [Archive]

Rockphed

2015-10-05, 10:51 PM

This is the thread to discuss Howard Taylor's webcomic, Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com)!

Previous thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405068).

Last time, on Schlock Mercenary, some pirates are trying to steal the incredibly valuable Cindercone, presumably to sell its hull on the market. Schlock, Ebby, and Xeno squad are trying to take care of one of the prongs of the attack inside the hull. Captain and Commodore Tagon are trying to take care of the rest of the prongs outside. Kevin is perturbed that the Tagon's aren't trying to stand between his command and the ordinance raining down on it.

(For those wondering, inspiration for the title came from here (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-04-25).)

memnarch

2015-10-06, 01:05 AM

While it would have been nice to have a more recent reference for the title, this is still a good one. :smallcool:

(also, you got a couple errors you might want to fix in the post there)

guttering flame

2015-10-06, 01:54 AM

I thought at first the unioc was our own Xeno leader.

By the way the title source link is broken.

Kantaki

2015-10-06, 07:44 AM

Are Toughs boarding the Sanctum Adroit Depot now? I hope this doesn't end with Jumpstar Prime loosing its policeforce...

On another note, why is one of the Sanctum Adroit guys in the sunday-comic wearing civilan clothes and dual wielding screwdrivers? Is that their janitor?

Grim Portent

2015-10-06, 07:51 AM

On another note, why is one of the Sanctum Adroit guys in the sunday-comic wearing civilan clothes and dual wielding screwdrivers? Is that their janitor?

I think those are meant to be underwear rather than civilian clothes. Presumably he wasn't in uniform when they grouped up to decide what to do and he hasn't hide time to get dressed yet.

I think the 'screwdrivers' are some kind of weighted blunt weapon, maybe similar to a police baton.

NEO|Phyte

2015-10-06, 06:48 PM

So unless I've forgotten what Pi looks like, it seems that we have a new demolitions grunt, wonder if he'll survive/get a name.

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-06, 07:21 PM

So unless I've forgotten what Pi looks like, it seems that we have a new demolitions grunt, wonder if he'll survive/get a name.

Yes, looks like a new guy. Unless Howard's having a bad day drawing. :smallwink:

This one almost looks sane, also. Like some slightly humorless square-jawed type, but less outwardly crazy than Pi or even Pronto. Of course, we'll probably be learning more about his particular madness if he lasts long enough to get a name and personality. :smallbiggrin:

eschmenk

2015-10-06, 07:52 PM

New comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-07)

Schlock is apparently in the process of swallowing everyone in the barracks. I don't know how Perkey's helmet camera could be recording what Schlock is doing. :smallconfused:

The mustached officer looks as if he's wondering if that's his foot in front of him. He had better hope it's not.

Now, Schlock looks threatening.

Alent

2015-10-06, 08:01 PM

Yes, looks like a new guy. Unless Howard's having a bad day drawing. :smallwink:

This one almost looks sane, also. Like some slightly humorless square-jawed type, but less outwardly crazy than Pi or even Pronto. Of course, we'll probably be learning more about his particular madness if he lasts long enough to get a name and personality. :smallbiggrin:

Pi would never have made a hole too small. Clearly this means we are dealing with someone too new and too sane to be doing this job. :smalltongue:

memnarch

2015-10-06, 08:17 PM

Pi would never have made a hole too small. Clearly this means we are dealing with someone too new and too sane to be doing this job. :smalltongue:

Maybe it's this guy (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-11-01). Clearly Pi didn't do his job properly if it is.

NEO|Phyte

2015-10-06, 08:50 PM

Maybe it's this guy (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-11-01). Clearly Pi didn't do his job properly if it is.

Even accounting for art changes, the nose on the new guy looks too broad to be that guy.

New comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-07)

Schlock is apparently in the process of swallowing everyone in the barracks. I don't know how Perkey's helmet camera could be recording what Schlock is doing. :smallconfused:

The mustached officer looks as if he's wondering if that's his foot in front of him. He had better hope it's not.

Now, Schlock looks threatening.

If he was eating people, he wouldn't bother field stripping their guns. He's restraining them. And yeah that guy is probably wondering if that's his foot he's looking at.

Rockphed

2015-10-06, 09:04 PM

If he was eating people, he wouldn't bother field stripping their guns. He's restraining them. And yeah that guy is probably wondering if that's his foot he's looking at.

I get the "I am actively not killing all you people! Why won't you admit that we are friends yet?" vibe from Schlock.

And I was going to go with "Make it friendly" for the thread title (as was the consensus in the last thread), but the points of Schlock's moral compass are somewhat more explanatory of what our beloved (or behated as the case may be) comic is about.

Douglas

2015-10-06, 09:37 PM

Schlock seems a lot closer to a grey goo disaster scenario now than he used to be, with all this spreading tentacles and thin Schlocky membranes all over the place to tackle everyone at once.

eschmenk

2015-10-06, 09:48 PM

If he was eating people, he wouldn't bother field stripping their guns. He's restraining them. And yeah that guy is probably wondering if that's his foot he's looking at.

I don't think he's digesting anyone, but I think he is stuffing people inside of himself in order to restrain them. He did that in order to question someone early on (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-10-06). BTW, after the questioning, he tried to restrain that guy a different way (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-10-07) that wasn't nearly as effective. Schlock has eaten other people (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-06-24) without physically harming them, too. Mental harm would probably be another mater, though.

memnarch

2015-10-06, 10:01 PM

Even accounting for art changes, the nose on the new guy looks too broad to be that guy.

...

Yeah, that's true. But it's the only other demolitions guy that I can think of that the Toughs have or had with any panel time.

NEO|Phyte

2015-10-06, 10:12 PM

I get the "I am actively not killing all you people! Why won't you admit that we are friends yet?" vibe from Schlock.
Eh, while he has his moments of being utterly childlike, I'm not quite getting that vibe from him currently. This feels more like going through the motions because he isn't allowed to have fun with it. Once the joy of surprising the heck out of them wore off, it turned into a boring 'stop these guys without causing undue harm to them'.

I can certainly see him going 'Sorry about that time I had to forcibly restrain all of you, we're still friends, right?' once this is all said and done, though.

Cikomyr

2015-10-06, 10:24 PM

I have waited years for this.

"TENTACLES!!! TENTACLES!!!!" (*kicks everyone in the nuts*)

factotum

2015-10-07, 02:46 AM

NEO|Phyte

2015-10-07, 05:16 AM

factotum

2015-10-07, 07:06 AM

It is a poorly designed facility that keeps key locations along exterior surfaces.

A comms room will likely be needing some sort of external facility in order to operate, whether that be a radio aerial or a comms laser, so is vulnerable to attack from the outside regardless of what they do.

eschmenk

2015-10-07, 08:45 AM

OK, so the boarding party didn't even come in through the comms room. Does that mean that Moustache Guy from the previous strip is actually going there to root out the traitors? Or did Schlock lie and tell them the attack was coming there in order to misdirect them from the actual attack vector?

I think the mustache guy is being grabbed by Schlock. I think he intended to battle the rest of the platoon, but didn't manage to get far enough to interfere nor even for Ebby to hear the fighting. :smallconfused:

I guess the Ebby was forced to go down some halls to reach the Comms section, so the Comms section is probably internal.

factotum

2015-10-07, 10:16 AM

I think the mustache guy is being grabbed by Schlock.

Yeah, you're probably right--the guy on the left of the last panel definitely looks pretty similar to the chap from two strips ago, I missed that.

NEO|Phyte

2015-10-07, 12:41 PM

A comms room will likely be needing some sort of external facility in order to operate, whether that be a radio aerial or a comms laser, so is vulnerable to attack from the outside regardless of what they do.

The actual comm unit doesn't have to be butted up against the control room, it can be connected through wiring. (preferably run through channels that are too small for (most) sophonts to be able to squeeze through)

And unrelated, while poking through the archive to make sure I spelled sophont correctly (haven't found a strip with it to confirm), it appears that the grunt that assisted Pi with negligent regicide (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-11-01) was one Corporal Towwick (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2007-07-03) (rank and full name appears in the next strip). Two years of art progression, but the uniform matches, the hair matches, and the nose is probably as close of a match as we'll get with the two year gap.

:edit: and while I'm poking around, panel 5, annie plants can be configured to hold in atmosphere (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-11-22), so we've got a possible explanation for Cindercone's hull not being vacuum.

Kantaki

2015-10-08, 06:38 AM

New comic.

And they are still bickering. I know that the Toughs have a tendency to do so, but they are in a battle right now. Can't they start shooting at something? Well, looking at Tagon's last line he thinks the same way.

The Broken Wind looks like she got some scratches in the first panel.

eschmenk

2015-10-08, 07:59 AM

The Broken Wind looks like she got some scratches in the first panel.

If you look back at the last few times (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-02)we saw (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-09-29)her, she had similar marks some of the times. I don't know why. I don't know when they started to appear. She didn't seem to have them at the beginning of the book (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-03-30).

I understand that Broken Wind is probably more than six light seconds from many of the pirate vessels, but if the pirate vessels are flying in straight lines since Cindercone can't fire back, they could still be targeted by the long range guns. The ones chasing Broken Wind would be closer and could probably be targeted even if they aren't flying in straight lines.

I wouldn't be surprised if the general galaxy news is very important, though. There may be more going on than just this pirate attack since the Port Authority ships are missing.

Marcelinari

2015-10-08, 08:12 AM

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-08, 08:40 AM

eschmenk

2015-10-08, 08:43 AM

Hold on, the Toughs spent 20 minutes dithering around deciding what to do to respond to the sudden ambush? It took them that long to communicate to their hierarchies what was going on and to okay a counterattack? I'm astonished they aren't all atomic dust by now.

Approx 1.5 weeks ago:

To me, it doesn't look like either side is trying very hard to win. The pirates are acting as if they are ignorant (not entirely their fault) and many (all?) of them also seem very stupid. The Toughs are acting lazy. Karl is acting as if he finally became curious about the battle.

To be fair, Ebby's counterattack was authorized very quickly. Other than that, though, the Tough's performance has seemed very bad. We know Kaff wants to use the long guns to merely disable the pirate ships, but he doesn't even seem to be trying to use the long guns at all.

As far as we know, Kaff could call on long gun hits on at least some of the pirates. If those going after Cindercone start evading he could try to head back and pick off individual ones. If too many go after Broken Wind, he could zip back out of the jammed area and use the long guns to get the ones chasing him. Some of the pirates are probably trailing Cindercone, but are hanging back outside the jammed area or barely inside of it, and he could go after those soon after taking care of the ones chasing him.

Just goes to show these pirates are really, really incompetent. :smallbiggrin:

So the battle is just really boring and pointless?

ADDED: At least the pirates and Toughs don't seem to be as completely horrible as the SA personnel. Twenty minutes after their comms went down and several minutes after their point defenses started firing and multi-megaton weapons started exploding within a couple of km of their depot, the vast majority of them still had no clue that something was wrong. An entire barracks is being subdued by one intruder. The officer in the barracks didn't even attempt to contact any other officers elsewhere in the depot in order to get orders or coordinate anything.

factotum

2015-10-08, 10:40 AM

We know Kaff wants to use the long guns to merely disable the pirate ships, but he doesn't even seem to be trying to use the long guns at all.

How do we know that? The very first thing in today's strip is "messages sent". One assumes those include the messages back to base to bring the long guns into play.

halfeye

2015-10-08, 11:13 AM

It would be interesting if the mole was an attorney drone, because the Toughs sold the right to kill those to Sanctum Adroit, who might at this moment not be quite organised enough to do it.

eschmenk

2015-10-08, 11:57 AM

How do we know that? The very first thing in today's strip is "messages sent". One assumes those include the messages back to base to bring the long guns into play.

We don't actually know that. That's why I said, "...he doesn't even seem..." rather than something more definitive. It seemed as though this (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-02) would have been the time to specify what messages were sent, though, and there was nothing there about targeting anything. Also, given that Kaff originally just wanted to simply hide inside Cindercone where he couldn't target anything, I don't think we can trust him to behave as he normally would behave.

I've been wondering if the recent poor performances by Karl and Kaff are going lead to something where they will need to adjust their relationship. Maybe they have been too worried about stepping on each others' toes or something. I hope there is some sort of explanation, anyway.

Kantaki

2015-10-09, 06:15 AM

Well, something seems to happen now. It is worrying that it involves Massey, but the Toughs are taking action.

I wonder why they choose to consult their lawyer before Shooting the pirates. What they are doing is selfdefense, they even try to avoid blowing the pirates up (Sure, that is because Kaff wants to pillage, but it counts).

eschmenk

2015-10-09, 08:49 AM

What they are doing is selfdefense...

The only thing the Toughs are doing that could be considered to be self-defense is Ebby's platoon's assault on the depot.

What the Toughs would want Chinook to do wouldn't be self-defense because Chinook isn't being attacked. It might be considered to be an act of war, even. If the Oafans gave the long gun corvettes to the Toughs, then the Toughs could use them as self-defense. It's just that Chinook couldn't claim self-defense if Chinook used them. I don't know if this is why Massey is getting involved or not.

Kaff apparently hasn't given Chinook any coordinates to fire at anyway.

So far, to me this seems less like taking action than when we saw Ebby receiving orders to deploy about one month ago. Yesterday Kaff acted as if he still has no ideas about what to do.

ADDED: Schlock's assault of the SA personnel probably couldn't be considered to be self-defense. They weren't attacking him. They were merely holding him prisoner. The laws could be completely different, though. For all we know, Cindercone might have moved outside anyone's jurisdiction, in which case there wouldn't even be any laws to apply. In any case, Schlock was probably saving the SA personnel's lives, so he shouldn't be prosecuted in any case. But anyway, Massey job might be to smooth things over with Colonel Menendez.

factotum

2015-10-10, 02:07 AM

Well, that answers the Reynstein question. It's an interesting point--after all, they can't see or scan what they're shooting at, and the target is in an entirely different jurisdiction than they are, so there are potential issues there. Which unfortunately Reynstein can't answer, because it's never come up before!

Discus-Spinner

2015-10-10, 05:17 AM

I'd imagine that fire has been exchanged across state boundaries by non-state actors before now, though. And I'm not sure how extreme distance then changes the legalities.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-10-10, 07:53 AM

But probably not across the entire Galaxy, well aside from Lota.

The real question is whose jurisdiction would this fall into, which will probably set off..a Pan-galactic Lawsuit.

eschmenk

2015-10-10, 11:59 AM

But probably not across the entire Galaxy, well aside from Lota.

The real question is whose jurisdiction would this fall into, which will probably set off..a Pan-galactic Lawsuit.

I think the whole thing is stupid. There would have to be some sort of galaxy-wide government for there to be any universal law to be asking Reynstein about. You can't have a "Pan-galactic Lawsuit" or pan-galactic precedent without there being a Pan-galactic court.

Reynstein has always acted as if he can play lawyer wherever he happens to be. It doesn't work that way. You can't be a lawyer somewhere without demonstrating to the government there that you already know enough about their laws and legal system to do it. In the USA, that's handled on a state by state basis. The differences between the laws of civilizations in different parts of the galaxy would be far greater than the differences between US states.

A second way it is stupid is that firing something from a long range wouldn't be a legal issue in which precedence could possibly be relevant. There wasn't a legal precedent that said that Neil Armstrong could walk on the moon; he just went ahead and did it without talking to lawyers. Every time someone sets a new Guiness Book record or sports record, there wouldn't be any legal precedent that said that they could do that, but the new records get set anyway. Do lawyers have to be consulted before new record low or high temperatures are recorded? The same would be true with a weapon's range. It might set a new record, but how would that be a legal issue in which precedence would be relevant?

A third way it is stupid is that the only laws Chinook needs to worry about is the ones that the Oafans give her. She should already know what they would allow her to do. Who else is going to complain and file charges in any court? The surviving pirates won't even know what hit them. Why would anyone be stupid enough to tell them what happened? Some intelligence service might manage to intercept and decrypt the communications between Broken Wind and Chinook and figure out what happened, but why would they want to give away what they knew? What sort of legal leverage could they apply and want to apply? Chinooks long gun corvettes would make it kind of hard to enforce any rules that Chinook doesn't want to obey.

A fourth way in which is it kind of stupid is that there probably actually is some sort of precedence for firing the weapon for extremely long ranges. Reynstein wouldn't know what the original Oafans did, so how could he know if similar weapons were fired at the same distances? OTOH, the courts would consider any precedence that they couldn't know about, so that might not matter. This point somewhat irrelevant because it's not really a legal matter anyway.

Radar

2015-10-10, 01:35 PM

And yet, military operation on someone else's territory is a delicate act. Aside from the risk of angering someone, there is an important question, how many people realise the true range of Oafan weapons? Making such demonstrations might have consequences and asking for examples from the past is fully valid. The point does stand that it's not quite a legal matter and more of a diplomatic problem.

As for Reynstein lawyering in multitude goverment systems, there are a few reasons:
1. In many of those situation he didn't even need to know much about local law - only how to negotiate.
2. He still has access to Partnership Collective's database. If they know something, so can he.

eschmenk

2015-10-10, 01:53 PM

And yet, military operation on someone else's territory is a delicate act. Aside from the risk of angering someone, there is an important question, how many people realise the true range of Oafan weapons? Making such demonstrations might have consequences and asking for examples from the past is fully valid. The point does stand that it's not quite a legal matter and more of a diplomatic problem.

I agree that asking how this would play out would be a smart question to ask. I would think that Petey's analysis would be far more valuable than Reynstein's, though.

Radar

2015-10-10, 04:12 PM

I agree that asking how this would play out would be a smart question to ask. I would think that Petey's analysis would be far more valuable than Reynstein's, though.
True, but you shouldn't run to the nearly omniscient AI every time you need to decide something. There's seeking counsel and there's being entirely dependen on someone. They all know that Petey is more competent then they are in pretty much any concievable situation and role, but they still have chosen to live their lives independently by rejecting Petey's retirement offer.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-10-10, 06:26 PM

I think the whole thing is stupid.

Welcome to foreign/Galactic Affairs if everyone acted intelligent and reasonably we wouldn't have to argue about who owns what hunk of the big bile of dirt we live on :P

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-10, 08:08 PM

So ... the prone ones are already dead, eh?

ryuplaneswalker

2015-10-10, 08:12 PM

So ... the prone ones are already dead, eh?

Calling The Dark Knight style twist, prone bodies are the real enemy, the ones standing are the hostages.

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-10, 08:21 PM

Does Macomber have some kind of plasma gun there? It appears to have an annie plant built in.

Landis963

2015-10-10, 09:36 PM

Calling The Dark Knight style twist, prone bodies are the real enemy, the ones standing are the hostages.

How do you think they faked the thermal, then? Cooling suits under armor?

eschmenk

2015-10-10, 09:57 PM

How do you think they faked the thermal, then? Cooling suits under armor?

I think ryuplaneswalker was wrong, but the bad guys could have put something hot on the hostages or forced them to do jumping jacks. I don't know, but perhaps fear alone would be enough to raise a person's temperature a half-degree C (about 1 degree F)? (Legs didn't say anything about absolute temperatures.)

Alent

2015-10-10, 10:46 PM

I agree that asking how this would play out would be a smart question to ask. I would think that Petey's analysis would be far more valuable than Reynstein's, though.

I don't think turning to Reynstein for advice is inappropriate. As the laywer of a Mercenary Company, he should be read up on all the various laws relating to pirate attacks in the equivalent of international waters- both for the sake of conducting them and the ramifications of self defense. I would also think he's been researching laws and precedent relating to this for a while, since he's always been fairly proactive as a character. Why would he be a bad person to ask?

Also, trusting Petey in this situation is a little dangerous, as the Toughs know that he can and will manipulate them into breaking the law on their behalf. (Consider that time they ruined a reality TV studio.)

As for today's comic... I don't think I'd trust corpses in the Schlockiverse after some of the crap we've seen their nannies do.

factotum

2015-10-11, 02:01 AM

I think relying on body temperature for an assessment like this is suspect anyway. The scanned life-forms are described as "hominid"--not "human"--and we know intelligent apes exist in the Schlock universe. Apes have a different body temperature to humans anyway!

2xMachina

2015-10-11, 03:57 AM

Eh, so long the head is intact, we can bag it and revive them. No harm done.

So shoot them all, humans shield or no. We'll separate the guilty from the innocent from the healing tubes.

Discus-Spinner

2015-10-11, 06:01 AM

There would have to be some sort of galaxy-wide government for there to be any universal law to be asking Reynstein about. You can't have a "Pan-galactic Lawsuit" or pan-galactic precedent without there being a Pan-galactic court.
And yet, international law is a reality in the contemporary world, even in the absence of a world government. Galactic law is simply the same issue writ much, much, much larger. Nonetheless, it appears that such a thing exists, in some form, however difficult that might be, and Massey is considered competent to plead within that system. Well, you've got to have some kind of nigh-universal concept of contract law for the whole SM setting to work, if nothing else.

Massey is also presumably pretty good at winging it, bluffing, and doing research really really fast (helped by any latent access he does have to the Partnership Collective's database), but that's fine, it works.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-10-11, 06:52 AM

Eh, so long the head is intact, we can bag it and revive them. No harm done.

So shoot them all, humans shield or no. We'll separate the guilty from the innocent from the healing tubes.

You know..this is a 100% valid tactic in a setting where severe bodily harm has been at worst a month convalescence.

HandofShadows

2015-10-11, 07:59 AM

This operation was done very much on the fly with minimal planning/organization. It is likely the people who took over the Com Center though far enough ahead to have created such a fake out. They likely would ahve thought they would be facing SA people who are really (very good) police. I doubt they considered that the Toughs would get a team in there. And the Toughs operate on a whole different level than the SA does and are MUCH more willing to break things. As for considering that they people on the floor may not have human body temps, the Toughs talking about it are not human. They aren't likely to have the bias humans would about body temp.

lord_khaine

2015-10-11, 10:50 AM

Also, trusting Petey in this situation is a little dangerous, as the Toughs know that he can and will manipulate them into breaking the law on their behalf. (Consider that time they ruined a reality TV studio.)

I considder the situation with the TV studio less a case of manipulation and more a question of offering them money to break the law.

Alent

2015-10-11, 03:31 PM

I considder the situation with the TV studio less a case of manipulation and more a question of offering them money to break the law.

Eh, were breaking the law the goal of Petey's operation, I would agree with you. It wasn't. He tricked (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2006-07-23) the UNS and Celeschul governments into running a sting operation with the goal of destroying the TV studio so that he could tactfully show the UNS through Breya what he was doing with the rogue governments he was kidnapping and talk the toughs out of their squid in the process (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2006-08-06). Somewhere in there he also infested Kevyn with nanites and made a backup of his brain.

There's an even longer term game being played there, but I'm not sure what it is. I suspect he was priming them to give themselves the idea to distribute Redhack through TV, or priming Int-aff-int to notice Redhack being sent through TV.

The toughs were used as a pawn in that scenario and it was pretty obvious. Although in hindsight, one of their scrubbed memories was probably not a good example to fall back on. (I guess Kevyn, Elf, and Schlock remember it, but still.)

halfeye

2015-10-11, 04:09 PM

So ... the prone ones are already dead, eh?
Could be. If the attackers are ectothermic, it may be that only hostages and ex-hostages show on thermals.

eschmenk

2015-10-11, 06:00 PM

Nonetheless, it appears that such a thing exists, in some form, however difficult that might be...

It does? Do you mean before that strip? If so, can you point to what you are talking about?

Massey is also presumably pretty good at winging it, bluffing, and doing research really really fast (helped by any latent access he does have to the Partnership Collective's database), but that's fine, it works.

That's not what the conversation was about. Chinook asked a specific legal question. Massey gave a specific answer. Both seemed ridiculous to me, especially Massey's answer since he should know how ridiculous it was.

I don't think turning to Reynstein for advice is inappropriate. As the laywer of a Mercenary Company, he should be read up on all the various laws relating to pirate attacks in the equivalent of international waters- both for the sake of conducting them and the ramifications of self defense. I would also think he's been researching laws and precedent relating to this for a while, since he's always been fairly proactive as a character. Why would he be a bad person to ask?

Because it had nothing to do with legal matters. (We weren't talking about the actual conversation in the comic anymore.) The kind of things Chinook should have been concerned about were things like: Would a secret intelligence service be impressed and figure out what had happened and go hunting for Chinook's long gun corvettes and perhaps even steal one and learn how the long guns work. Massey couldn't help with questions like that or any other question worth asking, so there was no need to talk to him. (Really it boils down to: if Chinook wants to save her friends, she needs to fire and deal with the consequences later.)

Eh, so long the head is intact, we can bag it and revive them. No harm done.

If the bodies are already cooling down, the brain cells are all dead. If the victims had already been treated with the supper nannies and the brains are still intact, the nanobots could probably rebuild the brain cells, but otherwise there would be no help for them because their heads weren't bagged in time.

What is the latest term: nannites, rather than nanobots or nannies?

Could be. If the attackers are ectothermic, it may be that only hostages and ex-hostages show on thermals.

Ebby assumption seems to be that the moles were the same species as the victims and wearing identical clothing. There are tons of alternate "could bes" that would throw a monkey wrench into Ebby's analysis. For example, the moles could have hidden behind equipment that blocked their heat signature. That doesn't bother me. Ebby needs to do something quickly. Right or wrong, his assumptions seem reasonable.

------

ADDED: New Comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-12)

Gee! Wasn't that exciting? :smallwink:

I'll give Chinook credit for knowing that there wasn't any point in talking with Massey. I thought that Saturday's comic was so stupid that it was best to pretend that it never happened. That's exactly what Chinook did in today's comic. :smallbiggrin:

Kantaki

2015-10-12, 02:01 AM

If the bodies are already cooling down, the brain cells are all dead. If the victims had already been treated with the supper nannies and the brains are still intact, the nanobots could probably rebuild the brain cells, but otherwise there would be no help for them because their heads weren't bagged in time.

What is the latest term: nannites, rather than nanobots or nannies?

Sure, but if they guys the Xeno-team is shooting aren't enemies (and even if they are interrogations can be useful) they should be able to resurrect them.

New Comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-12)

Gee! Wasn't that exciting? :smallwink:

I'll give Chinook credit for knowing that there wasn't any point in talking with Massey. I thought that Saturday's comic was so stupid that it was best to pretend that it never happened. That's exactly what Chinook did in today's comic. :smallbiggrin:

A bit to much action for my taste.:smalltongue: Maybe the good-will mission will go differently. It can't be worse right?

Discus-Spinner

2015-10-12, 04:28 AM

It does? Do you mean before that strip? If so, can you point to what you are talking about?
The entire comic is about an interstellar mercenary company who operate on the basis of enforceable contracts. Therefore, there's a system of interstellar commercial law. In addition, I think that the concept of piracy has been mentioned even before this storyline. That's essentially meaningless in the absence of inter-jurisdictional law.

halfeye

2015-10-12, 08:28 AM

In addition, I think that the concept of piracy has been mentioned even before this storyline. That's essentially meaningless in the absence of inter-jurisdictional law.
One nation's pirate can be another nation's priateer, or not, whether piracy has occurred is decided in most cases by the strongest nation.

memnarch

2015-10-12, 10:17 AM

One nation's pirate can be another nation's priateer, or not, whether piracy has occurred is decided in most cases by the strongest nation.

And I'll add that that strength is probably relative based on how close one is to the location of one of the involved nations/governments. In the sphere of influence of one government for example, if a ship doesn't have proper documentation, that could make them fair game for anyone else in a mob protection-racket sort of way.

eschmenk

2015-10-12, 11:15 AM

Sure, but if they guys the Xeno-team is shooting aren't enemies (and even if they are interrogations can be useful) they should be able to resurrect them.

Right. I didn't quote the full comment I was responding to, so some context was lost. I left this out:

So shoot them all, humans shield or no. We'll separate the guilty from the innocent from the healing tubes.

My point was that only the two they shot could possibly be revived in the conventional way (without super nannies rebuilding their brains) so it might not be possible to revive both groups. Given that in the most recent update the narrator only mentions "two clean shots and one button press," I think it's safe to conclude now that those two were the bad guys, BTW.

A bit to much action for my taste.:smalltongue: Maybe the good-will mission will go differently. It can't be worse right?

Shouldn't a Schlock Mercenary reader know better than to ever say, "It can't be worse?" :smallwink:

I don't know if Chinook got all of the pirates, though. I am also wondering if something bigger was going on given that the Port Authority seemed to be missing. :smallconfused:

Kantaki

2015-10-12, 12:00 PM

Shouldn't a Schlock Mercenary reader know better than to ever say, "It can't be worse?" :smallwink:

What do you think why I phrased it that way? I'm not taunting Murphy, I'm trying to manipulate Murphy.:smalltongue:

And now that I said it it won't work... That wasn't very clever.

memnarch

2015-10-12, 10:44 PM

Here's to hoping we'll get a view or two more of some of the ships being shot.

factotum

2015-10-13, 02:33 AM

That one we just saw getting shot--that's the same class as the Kitesfear, the Tough's first ship, isn't it?

Kantaki

2015-10-13, 12:57 PM

That one we just saw getting shot--that's the same class as the Kitesfear, the Tough's first ship, isn't it?

Looks like it could be the same class.
The Kitesfear had two gunturrets that I don’t see on this one, but this can be explained. The ships could be different generations/ models of the same ship, or Tagon added those turrets to have more firepower, or this ship had them removed for some reason.

Wait a moment, those LGCs can fire inside the targets hull? That's new, well it's old, but I think we see that kind of attack for the first time. Unpleasant. Aren't TADs supposed to prevent this?

memnarch

2015-10-13, 01:24 PM

Looks like it could be the same class.
The Kitesfear had two gunturrets that I don’t see on this one, but this can be explained. The ships could be different generations/ models of the same ship, or Tagon added those turrets to have more firepower, or this ship had them removed for some reason.

Wait a moment, those LGCs can fire inside the targets hull? That's new, well it's old, but I think we see that kind of attack for the first time. Unpleasant. Aren't TADs supposed to prevent this?

Well, the place that used to be Credomar did pretty much the same thing (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2010-11-08). Apparently TAD fields (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-12-17) get overwhelmed too. Perhaps it's kinda like how Petey (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2008-10-23) can punch through as well; it just takes lots and lots of power.

Kantaki

2015-10-13, 01:34 PM

Well, the place that used to be Credomar did pretty much the same thing (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2010-11-08). Apparently TAD fields (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-12-17) get overwhelmed too. Perhaps it's kinda like how Petey (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2008-10-23) can punch through as well; it just takes lots and lots of power.

I knew Lota did something similar at one point, but I never realized that Lota fired inside that ship. I thought Lota’s shot emerged outside the vessel’s hull.

factotum

2015-10-13, 01:36 PM

Wait a moment, those LGCs can fire inside the targets hull? That's new, well it's old, but I think we see that kind of attack for the first time. Unpleasant. Aren't TADs supposed to prevent this?

No, we've seen it before:

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2010-11-08

Note that the beam from Credomar goes *inside* the prow of the sloop and destroys it from the inside out. Also note that the sloop's TAD was up and running at the time, because that's the main reason they had to destroy it--they needed to remove that TAD in order to save their people. The mechanism Credomar and the long guns use is not teraport-based and is thus unaffected by TAD, which is why the weapon is so scary.

memnarch

2015-10-13, 01:36 PM

I knew Lota did something similar at one point, but I never realized that Lota fired inside that ship. I thought Lota’s shot emerged outside the vessel’s hull.

Yeah, the panel does make it look like that doesn't it.

The Glyphstone

2015-10-13, 01:39 PM

So how long until Kevyn reverse-engineers long-gun technology to deliver solid objects through hyperspace, not just energy beams?

HandofShadows

2015-10-13, 02:07 PM

So how long until Kevyn reverse-engineers long-gun technology to deliver solid objects through hyperspace, not just energy beams?

When he gets a chance, maybe a week or two.

Radar

2015-10-13, 03:01 PM

So how long until Kevyn reverse-engineers long-gun technology to deliver solid objects through hyperspace, not just energy beams?
Well, the only issue is stability of transfer, which is of no concern for the weapon and it's the issue for transport. On the other hand, it's like saying that a given treatment for cancer is great and we only need to solve the issue of keeping the patient alive (https://xkcd.com/1217/).

memnarch

2015-10-13, 07:41 PM

Hmmm.
I guess the Tagons don't want to let the cat immediately out of the bag.

Cikomyr

2015-10-13, 09:35 PM

I like Old Man Tagon.

He be smart.

Kantaki

2015-10-14, 06:40 AM

I like Old Man Tagon.

He be smart.

The best part is that isn't even lying. They have saboteurs (well a saboteur) taking out the Annie-plants. That the enemy assumes the Toughs had someone on the ship that was taken out is their problem - Karl never said that. Misleading the enemy by saying the truth is a great ability.

eschmenk

2015-10-14, 11:11 AM

Hmmm.
I guess the Tagons don't want to let the cat immediately out of the bag.

Right. They wouldn't. That was behind one of the reasons I thought Saturday's strip was stupid. No one would sue Chinook if they didn't know that she was involved and it would be foolish of the Toughs to let people know that they were dependent on outside help.

I think it might have been smarter for Karl to have said "our stealth doom-lancers inside your hulls" or something like that. And I really hope Kaff didn't say, "Do you think they will buy it?" on an open channel. :smallbiggrin: (ADDED: On second thought, "saboteurs" may have made the joke funnier. And "saboteurs" plus Karl transmitting, "Well, they're not aboard anymore," when Chinook fired would have been very effective, but it might have taken away from the joke.)

I knew Lota did something similar at one point, but I never realized that Lota fired inside that ship. I thought Lota’s shot emerged outside the vessel’s hull.

If you look on the previous page, it looks like there is a narrow blue area that probably wraps around the front. Perhaps that is a window that blew out or a weapon that exploded.

guttering flame

2015-10-14, 01:00 PM

Right. They wouldn't. That was behind one of the reasons I thought Saturday's strip was stupid. No one would sue Chinook if they didn't know that she was involved and it would be foolish of the Toughs to let people know that they were dependent on outside help.

If they didn't use their ultimate secret weapons they lose individuals they're not willing to sacrifice. Sure, objectively the Oafans and their AI shouldn't care about a few mercenaries and their miniscule borrowed ship but our mercenaries are just that likeable. Ergo ultimate secret weapon's use was unavoidable

I think it might have been smarter for Karl to have said "our stealth doom-lancers inside your hulls" or something like that. And I really hope Kaff didn't say, "Do you think they will buy it?" on an open channel. :smallbiggrin: (ADDED: On second thought, "saboteurs" may have made the joke funnier. And "saboteurs" plus Karl transmitting, "Well, they're not aboard anymore," when Chinook fired would have been very effective, but it might have taken away from the joke.)

You forget, Karl has an intelligent ship and therefore an intelligently controlled onoff comm switch.

eschmenk

2015-10-14, 01:23 PM

Ergo ultimate secret weapon's use was unavoidable

Are you basically agreeing with me and saying that's reason #5 Saturday's strip was stupid? I'm fine with that. I really don't much care, actually. I think Saturday's strip was mostly just dumb filler that allowed the subsequent two-row comic to appear on a Sunday. Saturday's strip also may have helped set up Monday's joke, such as it was. *shrug*

You forget, Karl has an intelligent ship and therefore an intelligently controlled onoff comm switch.

I wasn't being serious there.

Kantaki

2015-10-14, 01:25 PM

If they didn't use their ultimate secret weapons they lose individuals they're not willing to sacrifice. Sure, objectively the Oafans and their AI shouldn't care about a few mercenaries and their miniscule borrowed ship but our mercenaries are just that likeable. Ergo ultimate secret weapon's use was unavoidable

The AI belongs (belonged) to the Toughs. That Chinook (formerly Tagii) controls the Can is a newish development. And I think even if the Oafans are willing to let their new allies die Chinook would kill everything that tries to prevent her from helping her friends. She might not be insane anymore, but this can change fast.

eschmenk

2015-10-14, 08:14 PM

New comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-15)

I can't tell if Karl is hiding Chinook's involvement from Bala-Amin or if he is just using "we" very broadly.

I think that Karl is afraid of retribution (he's had some prior experience dealing with angry pirates), but if it isn't that, I think he might be concerned about drawing Celeschul's attention to the fact that he has illegally (under Celeschul's laws) joined the Toughs. (I think the battle may have occurred in space claimed by Celeschul since Celgate was mentioned.)

I would normally think that by "sales pitch," Bala-Amin means Karl's request to her, but if so, I can't find the required joke anywhere in the comic. Maybe it's that she was hoping the call was more social or romantic, so she's annoyed at him now? That seems like a stretch, though. :smallconfused:

Kornaki

2015-10-14, 09:25 PM

Rockphed

2015-10-14, 09:33 PM

Karl made a request, the sales pitch is where you convince the person to do what you asked them in this context. She's saying that he has to be very convincing to get her to do that.

I figure that getting the sales pitch will require selling a few long-shot volleys with minimal questions asked. "Where?" and "When?" are okay, but "Why?" is right out. "Will there be minimal civilian casualties?" will get a stern look and a "harumph."

eschmenk

2015-10-14, 09:41 PM

Karl made a request, the sales pitch is where you convince the person to do what you asked them in this context. She's saying that he has to be very convincing to get her to do that.

That's what I was thinking. The only problem with that explanation is: where is the mandatory joke, then? If it's that straightforward, I don't see anything that could be an attempt at a joke.

After a second reading, I think by "sales pitch," it's more likely that she meant the attempt to convince the pirates that someone else shot them. That would require her to be using the tern "sales pitch" loosely, and there still isn't much of a joke, but there might have been an attempt at humor in that case. :smallconfused:

memnarch

2015-10-15, 08:51 PM

Kornaki

2015-10-15, 09:08 PM

eschmenk

2015-10-15, 09:29 PM

You know, that's one thing I didn't really consider. What happens when other people find out that Long Gun Tech both works and someone out there already has a bunch? Time to race to make it as quick as you can?

If people didn't already know it worked, they also didn't know how it works. That would make it hard to get started making them.

It could be that various civilizations do know, but agreed to not build any so that there wouldn't be any arms race. I think that's unlikely, though. I don't know how it would be possible to verify that someone wasn't cheating, so I don't think that such an agreement would work.

Given the way other plot threads related to size and number of resources that Oafans have available have worked out, it may be that the point will be made that the Oafans have too much of a lead for anyone to have any chance of coming close to parity, so there isn't any point in trying.

Yeah, but how is that different from nuclear weapons or the teraport?

The difference is that in the SM universe and timeframe, there are defenses against nuclear weapons and teraports, but there aren't any ways to defend against long guns. That's why Bala-Amin is worried and why she brought up the specter of Mutual Assured Destruction.

Douglas

2015-10-15, 09:57 PM

I remember seeing a quote somewhere that transmitter-less teleportation is the end of personal property, while receiver-less teleportation is a very short war. The teraport is both, and the only reason it hasn't turned out that way is the rapid and universal deployment of TAD fields.

Long Gun technology is weaponized receiver-less teleportation that defeats TADs. Until someone produces an anti-LG upgrade to TADs, anyone who has Long Guns can instantly defeat anyone they know the location of. Such a technology is inherently extremely destabilizing.

memnarch

2015-10-15, 11:13 PM

Yeah, but how is that different from nuclear weapons or the teraport?

The shields can probably block nuclear weapons (just based upon surviving antimatter explosives (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2008-05-11)) and the teraport had kryptonite invented (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-08-11) (ok, discovered) pretty quick.

factotum

2015-10-16, 02:29 AM

Long Gun technology is weaponized receiver-less teleportation that defeats TADs. Until someone produces an anti-LG upgrade to TADs, anyone who has Long Guns can instantly defeat anyone they know the location of. Such a technology is inherently extremely destabilizing.

Yeah, I agree with that. Once it becomes common knowledge this technology exists, you end up in an arms race which likely no-one can win--bear in mind that Credomar was built 200 years ago, and presumably the UNS mothballed it because they couldn't figure out a way to defend against it and were concerned what would happen if knowledge of its existence became widespread.

Kantaki

2015-10-16, 07:09 AM

I'm not sure with whom I feel more. With Karl who has to show his (well, the Oafan's/ Chinook's) hand or with Bala-Amin who gets this intel. But why is mutually assured destruction bad enough to be called "dark age"? More importantly wouldn't that require more than one faction to have the long gun tech.

HandofShadows

2015-10-16, 08:44 AM

Say someone gets attacked with Long Guns. How do you know who attacked you? Do you just go attacking everyone else with Long Guns? Or maybe the enemy has more Long Guns than you do. If he uses them you are dead, but maybe if you strike first you can destroy enough of his guns so you can beat him. It's not Mutually Assured Destruction, it's Mutually Assured Chaos. :smalleek:

Kantaki

2015-10-16, 08:56 AM

eschmenk

2015-10-16, 09:52 AM

If he uses them you are dead, but maybe if you strike first you can destroy enough of his guns so you can beat him.

The idea is that the long guns will be hidden, so the the strike first option won't exist.

It would normally be MAD, because any civilization would program their long guns to target whatever enemies they had if they were destroyed. The guns would just automatically follow those instructions. A hyper-aggressive civilization could just pick a victim at random without fearing retaliation as long as no one figured out that they were the ones to do it, but if any other civilization with long guns figured it out, they would target the hyper-aggressive civilization because they would worry that the hyper-aggressive civilization might target them.

guttering flame

2015-10-16, 11:11 AM

The solution will be to hide your assets. Phantom planetary systems and glalxy wide information-deletion is the way. Massive DESTROY EVERYTHING (but yourself) is the counter-solution. DESTROY EVERYTHING (but yourself) is the guarateed someone's ultimate solution. REVENGE DESTROY WHAT'S LEFT by the few escaped from decimation is the final solution.

Kornaki

2015-10-16, 05:30 PM

Again, they had the same issue with the teraport. Why doesn't anyone think the galaxy will come up with a solution? Up until now only small isolated groups have thought about this problem, and we don't even know if none of them have solved it.

Douglas

2015-10-16, 06:20 PM

With the teraport, the solution was released to the galaxy at the exact same time as the problem. It still resulted in galactic chaos and war.

eschmenk

2015-10-16, 08:13 PM

New comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-17):

I don't know why they don't just start a rumor that Petey did it. Petey has helped the Toughs out before. Petey has a history of depositing biological clones on Ob'enn ships in order to suborn them. Petey has the power to punch through TAD fields. It shouldn't be hard to convince people that Petey did it.

It might be more effective if they just let some captured pirates catch a glimpse of a Petey or a mannequin and let the pirates jump to conclusions about what happened.

ADDED: For that matter, I don't even see why it's necessary to create a rumor that the Toughs had outside help. Anyone who would believe the rumor Karl proposed would probably believe any of several alternative explanations. Examples: 1) Cindercone, which is a ship that required incredible amounts of energy to build, could have incredible amounts of energy it could use to punch through TAD fields and insert and remove saboteurs. 2) Kevin, who invented terraports and TADs and knows more about them than anyone, found a weakness in the local TAD and exploited it to insert saboteurs inside the pirate ships, then removed them.

I don't know what Karl is worried about. If someone didn't know there could be such a thing as a long gun, why would they conclude that the Toughs used long guns?

It seems that the more that Karl talks to people about wanting to hide the use of the long guns, the more likely he's making it that the information will leak out. :smallyuk: (We know Petey will know since he's hacked Bala-Amin's systems. Who else has?)

Cikomyr

2015-10-16, 09:26 PM

Petey doesnt want to appear as the meddling KoalaGod to the overall galaxy. Showing he has the power to insta-disable any fleet is not something he wants associated to his good name.

Plus, Petey cant be the solution to everything..

factotum

2015-10-17, 12:02 AM

Not to mention that it would cause a major political upheaval in the UNS if they thought Petey was able to defeat a pirate fleet so deep inside their territory. This is presumably why the Toughs are trying to get the UNS themselves to pretend to have done it...

eschmenk

2015-10-17, 09:20 AM

Petey has gone out of his way to show the UNS that even UNS battleplates deep in UNS territory aren't safe from him. IIRC, he even teleported a UNS battleplate deep into UNS territory and back out again as part of the demonstration. There are reasons why Bala-Amin told Emm that she had "standing orders to start exactly zero wars with the psychobear of destruction at the galactic core" (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-04-27). :smallbiggrin: Additionally, the UNS already knows how Petey was defeating the Ob'enn; what happened to the pirates would seem very minor compared to that or to Petey's previous demonstrations of his might to the UNS.

I don't think the battle was in UNS territory anyway. IIRC Celgate was mentioned, which would imply Celeschul, not UNS, right? Also, the attack happened as soon as Cindercone ported in, so it would be at the edge of whatever territory it is.

BTW, it would be pretty much traitorous from Bala-Amin to not report what she learned about the long guns to the UNS, thanks to Karl telling her about them. Even if he trusts her, he shouldn't have put her in that position. That is just one of several reasons why it was stupid of Karl to go to her to ask her for help. What about Sorlie? If her implants aren't completely deactivated, the cat is already out of the bag. Also, if Int-Af-Int managed to bug Emm's office equipment (or her staff's equipment) and Bala-Amin is using that equipment now, the cat is already out of the bag. There are probably other reasons.

ADDED:

New Comic: (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-18)

Kevyn, aren't many people in most civilizations located at, or dependent upon, or at least very attached to fixed locations? How would disabling hypernet keep an enemy from targeting the fixed locations? Moving and hiding an entire civilization is a little difficult, isn't it? How do you trade with anyone else without anyone knowing that you exist?

Anyway, how would news reporters know that the pirate ships were disabled using long guns if you don't tell anyone? You probably just need to get Karl to shut up about them.

memnarch

2015-10-17, 08:40 PM

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-17, 09:39 PM

Anyway, how would news reporters know that the pirate ships were disabled using long guns if you don't tell anyone? You probably just need to get Karl to shut up about them.

Yes, other than Karl Tagon running his mouth ill-advisedly, it's hard to see exactly how this is going to end up on the news. "Bunch of dumb pirates get kicked around, can't explain clearly how it happened" isn't exactly a foundation for a gigantic deductive leap "outing" the long guns. More like a minor footnote somewhere, if anyone bothered to take much notice at all.

Spamotron

2015-10-17, 11:46 PM

The Toughs are pessimistic and a little paranoid. At the moment they're just discussing the worst case scenario.

Though the points raised are still valid. It will be impossible to keep the existence of Long Gun tech a secret forever. Their existence will leak and it will cause mass chaos. It's a just a matter of how and when.

Radar

2015-10-18, 02:53 AM

BTW, it would be pretty much traitorous from Bala-Amin to not report what she learned about the long guns to the UNS, thanks to Karl telling her about them. Even if he trusts her, he shouldn't have put her in that position. That is just one of several reasons why it was stupid of Karl to go to her to ask her for help. What about Sorlie? If her implants aren't completely deactivated, the cat is already out of the bag. Also, if Int-Af-Int managed to bug Emm's office equipment (or her staff's equipment) and Bala-Amin is using that equipment now, the cat is already out of the bag. There are probably other reasons.
Both Sorlie and Bala-Amin already know about long guns from the recent incident on Earth. It is clear that as least Int-Aff-Int knows it as well.

factotum

2015-10-18, 04:45 AM

It will be impossible to keep the existence of Long Gun tech a secret forever.

It can be kept secret for a very long time, though--for instance, Credomar's true purpose was kept secret for two centuries, and it was only when a rogue AI (Lota) got embedded into the station's systems that the secret came out. Even then, it seems likely this secret was kept among a very few people, since the darkening of the galaxy mentioned by the Toughs hasn't happened yet!

Kantaki

2015-10-18, 05:09 AM

While I don't think that this incident could reveal the long guns existence to the galaxy (unless someone* keeps talking about them) if it happens the galaxy will experience interesting times.
The resulting paranoia should be especially fun. After wiping any information about your position** how do you react to a foreign ship appearing in your space?
Do you blow them up to prevent them from giving away your coordinates or do you leave them be because their friends at home might just shoot in the general direction of their last known destination should they disappear.
Maybe we will get a galaxy of nomadic civilizations, always in motion to to avoid getting into each others crosshairs.

*Not a specific someone, just anyone who knows about them.
**However that is supposed to work.

HandofShadows

2015-10-18, 08:26 AM

It can be kept secret for a very long time, though--for instance, Credomar's true purpose was kept secret for two centuries, and it was only when a rogue AI (Lota) got embedded into the station's systems that the secret came out. Even then, it seems likely this secret was kept among a very few people, since the darkening of the galaxy mentioned by the Toughs hasn't happened yet!

It was easy to keep Credomar's power a secret because it was never used in public. Once you use a weapon and you leave survivors/evidence behind, someone will figure out what happened sooner or later.

eschmenk

2015-10-18, 08:35 AM

Both Sorlie and Bala-Amin already know about long guns from the recent incident on Earth. It is clear that as least Int-Aff-Int knows it as well.

She (and her former staff) knew about a long gun that had self-destructed. She didn't seem to have been aware that there was more than one of them, though. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-16) She also knew about Credomar/LOTA ("our prototype").

I don't know why you think Int-Aff-Int knows about them. Presumably, the ships sold to them didn't have long guns.

It was easy to keep Credomar's power a secret because it was never used in public. Once you use a weapon and you leave survivors/evidence behind, someone will figure out what happened sooner or later.

When Credomar/LOTA fired, the wrecked ship and a base full of pirates were left behind. In the current case, the evidence and survivors are being collected.

Radar

2015-10-18, 08:53 AM

She (and her former staff) knew about a long gun that had self-destructed. She didn't seem to have been aware that there was more than one of them, though. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-16) She also knew about Credomar/LOTA ("our prototype").

I don't know why you think Int-Aff-Int knows about them. Presumably, the ships sold to them didn't have long guns.
1. They know that this ship was just one of many Oafans built. It would be stupid to suppose this was one and only prototype.

2. I mixed up UNS organisations. Nevertheless Bala-Amin would most likely report findings about Oafan ships to other people in charge.

eschmenk

2015-10-18, 09:07 AM

1. They know that this ship was just one of many Oafans built. It would be stupid to suppose this was one and only prototype.

2. I mixed up UNS organisations. Nevertheless Bala-Amin would most likely report findings about Oafan ships to other people in charge.

Yet we haven't noticed the inevitable panic or repercussions that we've been led to expect if the word gets out. We've seen other characters do plenty of things that were inexplicably stupid lately, so why not Bala-Amin, too? Or maybe because she didn't want to stir things up with the Oafans, she didn't say anything as long as there was some doubt. *shrug*

Cikomyr

2015-10-18, 08:54 PM

*New Comic, Monday the 19th*

This is why i like Murtaugh.

She is smart.

eschmenk

2015-10-18, 09:58 PM

Does Menendez want the pirates themselves (he would want to learn how the pirates penetrated SA) or does Menedez want to use the pirates as bait for the attorney drones? Both?

I hope that they won't try to pretend that they caught the moles early on, but jammed themselves and the Toughs as a sting. That would be a stupid gift to the pirates if they did that, at least if USA-style sentencing laws applied.

factotum

2015-10-19, 02:22 AM

"Try thinking of donkey status as a reprieve." Those are pretty harsh words--one assumes Murtaugh means that Menendez is likely to be blamed for allowing a mole into the Sanctum Adroit organisation, and this is how he gets out of that rap?

Kantaki

2015-10-19, 05:55 AM

HandofShadows

2015-10-19, 06:53 AM

eschmenk

2015-10-19, 09:28 AM

"Sanctum Adroit can wipe out your pirate-fleet without giving you a chance to defend yourself" is great PR for them. Why fight someone if you can just get them to give up.
After all "Your Name is in the mouth of others, make sure it has teeth." is a rule they already follow.

Also, from the the point of view of prospective employers, being able to scare away criminals even before they commit crimes would be a major benefit of hiring SA. That SA could scare away criminals was already demonstrated here (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-09-06) and Menendez bragged about it here (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-09-07) and on the next page. SA would want to keep reinforcing their reputation among the criminals so it keeps working.

The thing is that it should have been obvious to Karl all along that the Toughs could have just dropped hints among the pirates and the public that SA had somehow helped the Toughs defeat the pirates. (The Toughs probably wouldn't even have needed to do that much.) People would have latched onto that idea rather than blaming long guns that they have never heard of before. The ruse would work even better if SA played along, but SA's cooperation wouldn't have been necessary. If Menendez was inclined to refute the idea for whatever reason, Karl could have reminded him that the Toughs recaptured the SA depot for SA with minimal collateral damage, so he owed the Toughs something.

No, it's that Menendez is the one who fired Murtaugh from SA and she still isn't happy about it.

I agree.

Kantaki

2015-10-19, 07:21 PM

New comic.

If this works it is a situation where everybody wins.

The Toughs and their friends keep their toys secret, Sanctum Adroit look good, the pirates get to vent their frustration and the scapegoats... ähm, the scapegoats aren't a problem for the galaxy anymore.

As I said, everybody wins. That is nice. Situations like this should happen more often, then the galaxy would be a happy and peaceful place.

eschmenk

2015-10-19, 09:03 PM

The more we learn about SA, the more corrupt it seems to be. I don't care all that much, but I think I would have preferred that they remained more noble. That could have provided a nice contrast to the Toughs.

Is SA going to hide the fact that some of their personnel were killed? That would seem a bit disrespectful to the dead. Yet if they pretend they had pirate turncoats working for them all along, it might seem odd that their people were ambushed the way they were. Maybe they will pretend the those people were killed some other way. Or maybe if they had the supper nannie treatment and weren't shot in the head, they might just be mostly dead.

Personally, I think it would have been more impressive if SA let the pirates think that they worked with the Toughs to punch through the TAD field and put holes in the annie plants and let the pirates guess how they managed to do it.

...the pirates get to vent their frustration and the scapegoats... ähm, the scapegoats aren't a problem for the galaxy anymore.

I think Menendez intends to rescue the scapegoats. He's just not separating them first, so there will be some danger to them, so he's picking particularly bad ones.

Mando Knight

2015-10-19, 09:39 PM

The more we learn about SA, the more corrupt it seems to be. I don't care all that much, but I think I would have preferred that they remained more noble. That could have provided a nice contrast to the Toughs.

They're top-shelf rent-a-cops... mercenaries of frontier justice. If getting their hands a little dirty behind the scenes is what they need to shore up their reputation as do-gooders, then that's what they'll do. After all, the reputation is what sets their market value.

Overall, they're probably no more corrupt than the average non-Evil adventuring party.

memnarch

2015-10-19, 09:48 PM

They're top-shelf rent-a-cops... mercenaries of frontier justice. If getting their hands a little dirty behind the scenes is what they need to shore up their reputation as do-gooders, then that's what they'll do. After all, the reputation is what sets their market value.

Overall, they're probably no more corrupt than the average non-Evil adventuring party.

Rent-a-cops, while an accurate descriptor, seems a bit on the nose since they're really good at providing solutions to their employers (or at least the toughs). :smallbiggrin:

Kornaki

2015-10-19, 09:51 PM

They're top-shelf rent-a-cops... mercenaries of frontier justice. If getting their hands a little dirty behind the scenes is what they need to shore up their reputation as do-gooders, then that's what they'll do. After all, the reputation is what sets their market value.

Overall, they're probably no more corrupt than the average non-Evil adventuring party.

How does staging a false investigation boost their reputation? They're putting a lot on the line, if this gets out it seems like the downside is nearly unlimited for them.

Mando Knight

2015-10-19, 10:54 PM

How does staging a false investigation boost their reputation? They're putting a lot on the line, if this gets out it seems like the downside is nearly unlimited for them.

It's a falsified investigation that gives Sanctum Adroit credit for the long gun shots, as the work of anti-piracy agents. Who happen to actually framed members of the pirate crews, so the pirates will also turn on one another even before SA gets to them in person.

Net result? SA gets to bolster its reputation as the best private security/lawmen-for-hire company in the sector, the Toughs and Oafans get to limit the dissemination of information regarding their new weapons, and the remaining pirates turn on themselves. It's win-win all around unless you're a pirate.

factotum

2015-10-20, 02:33 AM

How does staging a false investigation boost their reputation? They're putting a lot on the line, if this gets out it seems like the downside is nearly unlimited for them.

Because the alternative is for it to become known that they had moles in their employ who actively tried to get one of their employers killed? If that's not a downside, I don't know what is!

Also: someone earlier mentioned that SA personnel got killed. Who, exactly? Schlock was being careful to be non-lethal in his fight with the personnel in the barracks, and I don't think we saw any other SA folks attacked in any way.

Radar

2015-10-20, 03:29 AM

Also: someone earlier mentioned that SA personnel got killed. Who, exactly? Schlock was being careful to be non-lethal in his fight with the personnel in the barracks, and I don't think we saw any other SA folks attacked in any way.
Six prone hominids cooling off? (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-11)

Discus-Spinner

2015-10-20, 04:27 AM

Is SA going to hide the fact that some of their personnel were killed? That would seem a bit disrespectful to the dead.
I doubt that they'll conceal any deaths among their people at all. "We were attacked by pirates; the pirates were driven off, but sadly, these people were killed before the problem went away". That's the simple and respectful truth; a few white lies about the exact means used to deal with the problem doesn't change the pertinent facts there.

Personally, I think it would have been more impressive if SA let the pirates think that they worked with the Toughs to punch through the TAD field and put holes in the annie plants and let the pirates guess how they managed to do it.
But being able to do that would have been very little from the long gun technology, in practice. It'd cause exactly the same sort of political disruption and mass paranoia that everyone is trying to avoid.

They're top-shelf rent-a-cops... mercenaries of frontier justice. If getting their hands a little dirty behind the scenes is what they need to shore up their reputation as do-gooders, then that's what they'll do. After all, the reputation is what sets their market value.
Yeah. They've always been written as having principles, but to a certain extent that may be a business image - "We're trustworthy, if you pay us we wn't screw you over. and if you're an elected politician, hiring us to cover a need probably won't piss off your electorate unduly" - that also makes it easier for nice guys who work for them to sleep at night. They've never claimed to be saints.

eschmenk

2015-10-20, 07:51 AM

It's a falsified investigation that gives Sanctum Adroit credit for the long gun shots, as the work of anti-piracy agents. Who happen to actually framed members of the pirate crews, so the pirates will also turn on one another even before SA gets to them in person.

Menendez said, "We'll finger them during processing, to 'rescue them from arrest.'" That seems to mean identifying them at the same time that they are separated. If the fingered person was slow, they might not get away from the rest of the pirates in time, but it also wouldn't be convincing that they were really on SA's side if they didn't bolt. Likewise, if SA does too little to defend the guy they fingered from the rest of the pirates, it wouldn't be convincing. The ruse would probably be believable as long as SA got most of the pirates that were "fingered" safely away from the other ones even if they didn't manage to get them all, but SA can't let all of them get killed or it will look like SA was trying to get the pirates to kill each other. Even if the pirates didn't figure it out, other people probably would realize that something was going on. At the very least it would create the appearance that SA screwed up again. :smallyuk:

Another thing: SA should be concerned about their reputation with the general criminal community and potential informants. SA should want all shady people to know at least two things: 1) It's a bad idea to commit crimes when SA is around; 2) If you agree to help SA, they will hold up their end of the bargain. Why would SA want to damage that reputation by letting the people they fingered get killed? Teaching people that helping SA gets you killed shouldn't be a lesson that SA should be trying to teach. Hopefully they are smart enough to not do that.

Now let's say SA does manage to "rescue" most of the pirate "traitors." What happens when the surviving "fingered" guys go on trial? Some charges against them will have to be dropped in order to make it convincing that the guy had an incentive to turn and also to get him to keep his mouth shut from now on. Does SA really want to do that? Why would the prosecuting authorities and judge go along with that plan?

Either way, the plan doesn't seem to be a very good one.

But being able to do that would have been very little from the long gun technology, in practice. It'd cause exactly the same sort of political disruption and mass paranoia that everyone is trying to avoid.

Petey has made sure that the UNS knows that he can punch through TAD fields whenever he wants to. That hasn't caused political disruption and mass paranoia yet. I don't see why people would pay much attention to whatever explanations the pirates come up with anyway, especially if it's clear that they aren't sure about the details.

Also, keep in mind that Cindercone teleported into the ambush, so the ambush must have occured just outside the governmental TAD. Since Cindercone wanted to escape, but couldn't, presumably the pirates put up TAD fields. The idea that Kevyn or SA could find ways to punch through the pirate's fields might not seem particularly frightening.

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-20, 02:53 PM

I think I'm going to have stop reading this comic for a while; it's beginning to frustrate me hugely again.

We saw a pirate ship or two blown up; then it tangents off into a huge digression with these people making chin music about who's going to pretend to have moles on the ships. We didn't get any resolution of the attack, really; we don't know if any pirates got away, what damage they did, etc.

It's also cut away from Schlock before we saw what happened there; and away from Ebby before we found out if the cooler people were in fact dead, and who exactly was shot.

It's like the plot is taking the most byzantine, meandering, super-coy route to eventually amble to a point as possible.

Sadly, the last book I actually enjoyed was Book 13, Random Access Memorabilia, and I didn't really like Book 12 at all. So I guess my personal canon for the story is going to end at 13; I don't even know if I'll bother reading any more of this current insipid version of the story any more. Blech. :smallyuk:

I'm just sorry I read past Book 13; the current drivel is kind of ruining the earlier stuff for me, now, too.

Felius

2015-10-20, 07:16 PM

Today's comic: Good to see Tagon has priorities straight. :smalltongue:

factotum

2015-10-21, 02:41 AM

Today's comic: Good to see Tagon has priorities straight. :smalltongue:

Actually, he's still thinking way too small, IMHO. Those two cargo baffles that got used as the destructo-sandwich a few strips ago? They could have sold those on the open market for enough money to buy every single ship in that pirate fleet, and probably a lifetime's salary for all the occupants too! Salvaging a few pirate ships is strictly small change for the Toughs now.

Marcelinari

2015-10-21, 09:09 AM

I kind of sympathize with Bulldog Psion's point. The webcomic is getting bogged down in the boring, and the pacing is becoming really damn weird. Think about what just happened. There was a gigantic pirate fleet, the Toughs were in a corner, they had saboteurs within the hold and were outnumbered and outgunned. Their response? Yell at each other a bunch (apparently simply sitting there and taking all the enemy fire), throw a few baffles at people, swarm the saboteurs with a platoon (largely off-screen), then make a beeline for the edge of the jamming range, subsequent to which all of their problems immediately disappeared and they are now arguing at length about obscure legalese and who's going to lie for whom.

The action was negligible, and actually boring. We saw shots of Cindercone getting shot. We saw some pirate ships getting blown up by baffles and each other, that was pretty good. We saw Schlock capture some people alive without really trying, and we saw the Broken Wind do practically nothing. They ran, transmitted, and won. All the kerfuffle about having an impossible-to-quickly-disrupt jamming signal in the hold was moot, and the boarding team had no casualties or really problems at all, although they didn't actually accomplish anything useful. They killed some saboteurs, but they presumably didn't shut off the distributed jamming signals. EDIT: Upon rereading, I stand corrected - the boarders shut off the jamming with a single button-press. Amazing!

This strip is particularly egregious, I think. Massey's talking to the Tagons for Pete's sake. He still gives not only the articles pursuant to the situation, but the section, subchapter, and dependent clause. Ridiculous! He's their lawyer! They don't need to know that - they don't want to know that, I guarantee you - all they want to know is what they can do, and if it's legal for them to do it. All his legalese does is take up more room on the page, and allow the conversation to drag on that much further.

eschmenk

2015-10-21, 09:23 AM

Actually, he's still thinking way too small, IMHO. Those two cargo baffles that got used as the destructo-sandwich a few strips ago? They could have sold those on the open market for enough money to buy every single ship in that pirate fleet, and probably a lifetime's salary for all the occupants too! Salvaging a few pirate ships is strictly small change for the Toughs now.

Yet the amount of PTUs in those two baffles would probably be trivial compared to the quantity of PTUs in the ships that Kaff sold here (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-03-09). The thing is that we can't be absolutely certain that the Toughs owned the ships that were sold, but I think they did. The AI offered Kaff "multiple ships" (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-03-03) rather than "a couple of ships" and Kaff implied that the ships he was selling were his to sell (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-03-13). If so, the Toughs could probably buy the equivalent of battleplates.

Yet despite all the money that he probably has, Karl and Kaff haven't bothered buying more practical ships. It's just stupid for them to keep flying around in ships made out of materials that provide a huge incentive for someone to attack the ship.

halfeye

2015-10-21, 09:43 AM

It's just stupid for them to keep flying around in ships made out of materials that provide a huge incentive for someone to attack the ship.
Only if they would prefer not to be attacked. The profit in beating off attacks may be small, but if it's reliable, then it may be worthwhile.

I agree that this comic is getting dull, it sets up some good tension, but then it lets it go again. I think that's happening to quite a few comics lately, perhaps because the writers are not in anguish any more, and it's difficult to make dark comics when you're not in anguish?

eschmenk

2015-10-21, 10:26 AM

I kind of sympathize with Bulldog Psion's point...

Same here. One example of something that was really weird was the bit about Murtaugh being killed that occurred early in this book. What was the point of that? That was certainly an extreme case of violating the "show, don't tell" rule. Not only didn't we see it, we weren't even told exactly what happened. All we got was Murtaugh talking and talking about her worries that her brain wasn't exactly as it had been, and not being able to know if she was OK or not. And Murtaugh was talking to Schlock of all people! (The scene dragged out because there was dumb stuff about Schlock obtaining a horde of food mixed in.) Then after several pages of that, which should have lead somewhere if it going to be included at all, the subject was completely dropped, except for the facts that the bear was left with a prosthetic arm and Murtaugh was left with a bad haircut!

I haven't noticed the artwork changing that much, but it seems as if the plotting has become very sloppy lately. There are huge plot holes, such as the one that I mentioned in my first few paragraphs and the characters' behaviors just seem stupid and random. (Once Kaff got out of jamming range, he didn't know what to do, other than to request help! He didn't even know how to provide targeting coordinates.) I've noticed that Howard Taylor hasn't included any comments on the web pages in the last couple of books, either. (I thought they often were a nice addition when he did them.) My guess is that he's just not spending as much time trying to develop the story anymore. After as many years as he's been doing it, maybe it's necessary that he back off so as to avoid burnout. I don't know. I'd like to think that he's starting something new behind the scenes, but this has been going on for a while. :smallconfused:

runeghost

2015-10-21, 04:40 PM

Ibrinar

2015-10-21, 07:03 PM

I found it weird that there was no follow up to them shooting through the com room doors. Maybe he just wants to finish the comic and just skips most action because he doesn't really want to do it anymore.

eschmenk

2015-10-21, 09:01 PM

I'm not seeing signs that Howard Taylor is trying to end things, though. Having the characters stand around talking about random stuff doesn't do much to move the story toward a conclusion.

-------------

New comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-22)

OK, now we know what Schlock has been doing. He's been talking! What an odd thing for a character in this comic to be doing! :smallwink:

Marcelinari

2015-10-21, 11:01 PM

Even Murtaugh looks bored with the proceedings.

Alent

2015-10-21, 11:24 PM

Kantaki

2015-10-22, 07:29 AM

New comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-10-22)

OK, now we know what Schlock has been doing. He's been talking! What an odd thing for a character in this comic to be doing! :smallwink:

I think "Talking" isn't the right word. Well, it is, but Colonel Menendez problem is that Schlock is recruiting and not without success it seems.:smallamused:
I think everyone would make stopping that a priority.

eschmenk

2015-10-22, 08:50 AM

I think "Talking" isn't the right word. Well, it is, but Colonel Menendez problem is that Schlock is recruiting and not without success it seems.:smallamused:
I think everyone would make stopping that a priority.

Well, if Kaff intends to keep the pirate vessels, he will need crews for them. But yes, SA's management isn't going to like the Toughs poaching SA's employees.

Given how badly Broken Wind's boats were handled in the last battle, I'm not sure that making the Tough's fleet more complex would be a good idea. Early on, for some reason, the boats scattered apparently randomly around the inside of Cindercone. None of them attempted to escape and get out of jamming range and summon help or force the pirates to split up and chase them. Some boats seemed to head toward the depot, yet they didn't try to land any boarding parties. :smallconfused: We didn't didn't see the boats during most of the batle, but IIRC we were told that the boats left Cindercone when Broken Wind did. Then all the sudden the boats were close enough to the pirates to provide accurate targeting data to Chinook! WTF?

Lvl 2 Expert

2015-10-22, 09:55 AM

Howard is setting things up.

He announced a while ago that he knows where Schlock Mercenary is heading. The whole Oafa thing and the Lazarus project and things like those look very much like they're part of his big finish, which does start to look like it might involve some morals/aesops. The pirate thing seems to be something that needed to be done to get another story element into place, it could be the bit about keeping the long guns secret.

The pirate vessels don't seem to matter that much, after how they now twice sold a large fleet of Oafan warships. It's just very in character for captain Tagon to care about that sort of thing. And who knows, they might find something on board of those vessels which will turn out to be another game changer or important plot element.

I don't think altogether that this combat was supposed to be climatic. Sure, it could have used a bit more explosions, but I feel like Howard got it over with quickly because he doesn't think it was an interesting storyline, he just needed it to get to somewhere else.

Overall I have been enjoying the relatively recent battle scenes a lot. Including improvements in art I don't think things like the battle on Osiris or the invasion of the Paris asteroid fort were less climatic than the older stuff. Maybe even on the contrary. There was just never that much shooting in Schlock Mercenary, and the story in between got thicker over time.

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-22, 09:56 AM

Remember a while back, we were wondering about the identity of the new demolitions guy who blew the entry breach for Ebby's team? And we speculated he was that Towwick ("Wick") guy who was with Pi when he accidentally blew up Lota's original chassis?

Well, I was re-reading Book 13 to refresh myself after the recent meanderings (dang, the plot is so sharp-edged and vigorous compared to the current blathering and vagueness!), and I noted --

Wick is dead (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2012-07-29), killed hideously by weaponized nanobots. Permanently and irreparably, along with the luckless "Roddy" Rodriguez. So whoever the new demolitions guy is, he's not Wick.

eschmenk

2015-10-22, 11:02 AM

He announced a while ago that he knows where Schlock Mercenary is heading.

I would like to see that. Can you give any links or any information about where that was. My concern is did he see the destination, or did he just see the next few landmarks up ahead?

The whole Oafa thing and the Lazarus project and things like those look very much like they're part of his big finish, which does start to look like it might involve some morals/aesops.

I expected something in this book about the pros and cons of longevity, but so far that went almost nowhere. :smallconfused: Additionally, the lack of commentary on the web pages in the last couple of books seems to mean that he's less interested in teaching now. (Granted, the commentary often was fictional world-building, which is a bit different.) We've been seeing that there is something fishy (sorry) about Celeschul and the Schuul for a long time already, so is the fact that people in Celeschul's Port Authority helped the pirates any more likely to make that shoe drop now?

The pirate vessels don't seem to matter that much, after how they now twice sold a large fleet of Oafan warships.

I'm pretty sure that for the second sale the Toughs were just acting as agents for the Oafans, but yes, both the Toughs and Oafans should have plenty of credits now.

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-22, 11:31 AM

I would like to see that. Can you give any links or any information about where that was. My concern is did he see the destination, or did he just see the next few landmarks up ahead?

The destination. This blog post (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/blog/schlock-turns-12) described how the "grand overarching story" is ending somewhere in Books 18-20.

Since we're currently ambling randomly through Book 16, waiting for something remotely interesting or engaging to happen, there may be as few as 2 more books to go before it ends. One certainly hopes so, since the author appears to be suffering from massive burnout.

eschmenk

2015-10-22, 11:48 AM

The destination. This blog post (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/blog/schlock-turns-12) described how the "grand overarching story" is ending somewhere in Books 18-20.

Thanks. I had read that not so long ago, but completely forgot. :smallfurious:

Maybe HT is scared to end SM or is concentrating too much on thinking about what comes afterwards?

Kantaki

2015-10-23, 04:48 AM

Sometimes I forget that even if he is quite clever from time to time Schlock is still... Schlock.
I mean seriously? He expected the gun to fire hammers? Why would anyone build such a thing? On the other hand this is a pretty crazy universe. You never know what makes sense to someone.
Ebby's order is sensible even if it is never needed. The only problem with the order is that either Schlock will find such a gun and they will need it or he finds a gun that fires another kind of tool and has to be told that yes, those fall under that order too.
I just hope they don't let keep this gun. Stealing your allies' toys is something you shouldn't do, even when you pay those allies.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-10-24, 06:56 PM

Kantaki

2015-10-24, 07:22 PM

I don't know, looting the battlefield is kinda the modus operandi of the Toughs and would fit Schlock if he overlooked the fact that you don't take your allies' stuff when he found what he thought was a hammergun.

memnarch

2015-10-24, 07:46 PM

Poor Massey. Though I'm not exactly sure what's the trouble with the solution the Toughs used and his attempts at building a constitution.

Landis963

2015-10-24, 09:48 PM

Poor Massey. Though I'm not exactly sure what's the trouble with the solution the Toughs used and his attempts at building a constitution.

Possibly he's mad because their solution involves tarring someone's name and lying to the galaxy at large about their capabilities. And he, Massey, made it legal for them to do so. Framing the Guilty Party isn't the most above-board of tactics, especially when you're leaving someone else to mete out the consequences.

Rockphed

2015-10-24, 10:05 PM

Schlockmercenary.com leads to a broken page for me. Any suggestions?

Landis963

2015-10-24, 10:08 PM

Schlockmercenary.com leads to a broken page for me. Any suggestions?

How is it broken? You might want to try switching to another wireless network, if possible.

Grey_Wolf_c

2015-10-24, 10:33 PM

Schlockmercenary.com leads to a broken page for me. Any suggestions?

DNS issues. Tayler has a tweet (https://twitter.com/howardtayler?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) pinned about it, but short version, go here (http://x.schlockapp.com).

GW

factotum

2015-10-25, 01:39 AM

DNS issues.

It ain't just a DNS issue--I looked up the domain registration for schlockmercenary.com, and it was updated today? So either Howard let it expire and somebody stole it, or there have been major shenanigans going on.

Alent

2015-10-25, 01:52 AM

It ain't just a DNS issue--I looked up the domain registration for schlockmercenary.com, and it was updated today? So either Howard let it expire and somebody stole it, or there have been major shenanigans going on.

He's had a glitch in his DNS configuration for at least two years now that keeps rearing it's head and causing random people to experience this problem. I'm frankly not sure what causes it as I've never looked into it while it's happening, but this isn't the first time it's affected someone.

Rockphed

2015-10-25, 07:35 AM

He's had a glitch in his DNS configuration for at least two years now that keeps rearing it's head and causing random people to experience this problem. I'm frankly not sure what causes it as I've never looked into it while it's happening, but this isn't the first time it's affected someone.

I was expecting somebody to tell me how to clear my DNS cache. I wasn't really expecting it to be a wide-spread enough problem for Howard to have set up a mirror for it. Though, on second thought, I am a little surprised that Howard the Consumate Buffer-Builder didn't have one already set up and running some place like Livejournal.

Radar

2015-10-25, 09:01 AM

I was expecting somebody to tell me how to clear my DNS cache. I wasn't really expecting it to be a wide-spread enough problem for Howard to have set up a mirror for it. Though, on second thought, I am a little surprised that Howard the Consumate Buffer-Builder didn't have one already set up and running some place like Livejournal.
For the record, in Windows you use the command:
ipconfig /flushdns

If your browser uses separate DNS cache (I guess Firefox does it), then there should be something in the options, but I have no clue where.

Kornaki

2015-10-25, 09:32 AM

Possibly he's mad because their solution involves tarring someone's name and lying to the galaxy at large about their capabilities. And he, Massey, made it legal for them to do so. Framing the Guilty Party isn't the most above-board of tactics, especially when you're leaving someone else to mete out the consequences.

I think he's mad because crafting a constitution is both interesting and historic, and getting dragged into the main plot of Schlock Mercenary is getting more and more tedious by the day.

hajo

2015-10-25, 09:36 AM

Schlockmercenary.com leads to a broken page for me.
Any suggestions?
There are some tools to check out internet-problems, e.g. :
* downForEveryoneOrJustMe.com (http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/schlockmercenary.com)
* ip-lookup.net (http://ip-lookup.net/)
* etc. (http://www.kloth.net/services/)

smuchmuch

2015-10-25, 09:52 AM

I have the same problem as Rockphed.
I have cleared my cache in Firefox using the browser history cleaning options (not my cookies or hidden files though), it changes nothing. The alternate hosting seems to work though., so thanks for that.

factotum

2015-10-25, 11:08 AM

Main site is back up now--I think they fixed it about an hour ago.

eschmenk

2015-10-25, 07:07 PM

Am I the only one who thinks this is a little out of character for Schlock? sure he is child like but to steal something from people who are supposed to be his allies seems less child like and more..Evil.

It's very typical for characters to do something that's out of character for the sake of a joke.

Regarding Sunday's comic: (https://twitter.com/howardtayler/status/658074043761819650)

Today's Schlock Mercenary punchline is one of my very favorites.

Err...OK. :smallconfused:

Possibly he's mad because their solution involves tarring someone's name and lying to the galaxy at large about their capabilities. And he, Massey, made it legal for them to do so. Framing the Guilty Party isn't the most above-board of tactics, especially when you're leaving someone else to mete out the consequences.

Do you still think that SM wants to teach people that cooperating with SA gets you killed or that SA wants people to think that SA is too incompetent to protect the people who cooperate with them? I don't understand why you that that Menendez intends to allow the people that get fingered to be killed.

Marnath

2015-10-25, 08:29 PM

Lizard Lord

2015-10-26, 12:13 AM

I cleared my cache and it still isn't working for me.

Kantaki

2015-10-26, 07:25 AM

Apparently I never subscribed to this new thread and didn't noticed? O.o

Oh good, put Ventura in charge of the boats. She has such a good track record with projects like that, this is a great use of her talents. :smallwink:

Well, her projects so far always did what they were supposed to do. Sometimes a bit too well, but can we really blame her for being good at what she does?

Besides, as long as those boats don't have their own AI everything should be fine. Para's creation only get troublesome when they can think. And when someone messes with them of course.

Now if those boats are more than a extension of Broken Wind then... they would still be perfectly safe for anyone on their side.

Kornaki

2015-10-26, 07:35 AM

And when someone messes with them of course.

Imagine if every time you unplugged your desktop computer, it would come back to try to kill you when you powered it on. Sure, why would you ever try to unplug a desktop, right? It's just supposed to sit there and be powered all the time. Most people would still be upset about this feature, and some might go so far as to call it a bug.

Kantaki

2015-10-26, 08:16 AM

Imagine if every time you unplugged your desktop computer, it would come back to try to kill you when you powered it on. Sure, why would you ever try to unplug a desktop, right? It's just supposed to sit there and be powered all the time. Most people would still be upset about this feature, and some might go so far as to call it a bug.

Hey, if that were the trade off of having a computer that can run your house/office/hospital/military base and provide conversation I would be fine with it. If someone ignores the safety instructions that is their problem.

But I think a better comparison would be locking someone inside sensory deprivation tank and then being surprised if they attack you after you let them out.

We are talking about a AI after all and not some pocket calculator.

eschmenk

2015-10-26, 08:55 AM

Besides, as long as those boats don't have their own AI everything should be fine. Para's creation only get troublesome when they can think. And when someone messes with them of course.

What would be the odds that they don't have their own AIs? Either the two that were destroyed did or they had a crew on board when they were destroyed. If they were manned, it's a shame that so little attention was paid to what happened to the crew. (I hope Cindercone and Broken Wind didn't try to direct them through enemy fire while they were several light seconds away and the hypernet nodes were jammed.)

Kornaki

2015-10-26, 09:00 AM

Hey, if that were the trade off of having a computer that can run your house/office/hospital/military base and provide conversation I would be fine with it. If someone ignores the safety instructions that is their problem.

Remember, she wired up the bus differently than the Toughs normally had, and didn't tell anyone she did it. If it was the normal way then there probably never would have been a problem. Yes, there were benefits, but not nearly on the order of 'now we have an AI when before we didn't' and she should have anticipated the possibility of being unplugged if she was designing a new circuit for how everything was hooked up.

Kantaki

2015-10-26, 09:14 AM

What would be the odds that they don't have their own AIs? Either the two that were destroyed did or they had a crew on board when they were destroyed. If they were manned, it's a shame that so little attention was paid to what happened to the crew. (I hope Cindercone and Broken Wind didn't try to direct them through enemy fire while they were several light seconds away and the hypernet nodes were jammed.)

Well, the boats are a part of the Wind, it would make sense if she controls them. Didn't Petey do the same with the Toenail one?
I think if those boats were more than a extension of the Broken Wind, or even manned, they would react more to the loss.

eschmenk

2015-10-26, 10:26 AM

Well, the boats are a part of the Wind, it would make sense if she controls them. Didn't Petey do the same with the Toenail one?
I think if those boats were more than a extension of the Broken Wind, or even manned, they would react more to the loss.

Chinook said, "Broken Wind's boats are feeding me data," rather than, "Broken Wind is feeding me data from the boats," which is one of the reasons I think they were operating independently. Another reason is that Broken Wind might be able to guide the boats through close enemy fire once it the hypernet jamming was down, but I don't think it could have done so while either it or the boats were subject to jamming. That would have probably have prevented any boats from sending any targeting information for any pirates that were close to Cindercone until several seconds after the jamming had ended.

Having said that, the AIs on the boats would probably be pretty rudimentary, I think, and would be subject to instructions from Broken Wind.

Marnath

2015-10-26, 10:48 AM

Remember, she wired up the bus differently than the Toughs normally had, and didn't tell anyone she did it. If it was the normal way then there probably never would have been a problem. Yes, there were benefits, but not nearly on the order of 'now we have an AI when before we didn't' and she should have anticipated the possibility of being unplugged if she was designing a new circuit for how everything was hooked up.

That wasn't her. She fixed Tag, not his housing. The previous owners built it like that and since the Toughs had just been using it as-is, she obviously didn't stop to think about whether it would be a problem later.

NEO|Phyte

2015-10-26, 11:42 AM

Been ages since I've read that far back, didn't they custom-build TAG from the start?

Kantaki

2015-10-26, 11:57 AM

Been ages since I've read that far back, didn't they custom-build TAG from the start?

Something like that. I think at some Point Para even complains that Kevyn wants her to restore something he put together from various Do-it-yourself kits.

Not that the original TAG was much of a AI, more a chess computer with to much computing power. (According to Para at least and we know what she tends produce)

memnarch

2015-10-26, 12:27 PM

Been ages since I've read that far back, didn't they custom-build TAG from the start?

Far as I can tell, it was except for the Karloff skin (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2006-01-09).

HandofShadows

2015-10-26, 05:13 PM

Not that the original TAG was much of a AI, more a chess computer with to much computing power. (According to Para at least and we know what she tends produce)

Well if it was just a chess computer with a skin then I doubt it would have acted the way it did when it had to kill innocent people back at Credomar to save everyone.

Kantaki

2015-10-26, 06:04 PM

Well if it was just a chess computer with a skin then I doubt it would have acted the way it did when it had to kill innocent people back at Credomar to save everyone.

That were the „chess rules” TAG had to play by to keep the simile.
While TAG was capable of breaking those rules - unlike a chess computer - it still was enough to cause a breakdown.

I admit that chess computer isn't the best comparison, but it still fits. The way I understand it he was a rather lowlevel AI - somewhere around the level of the Maraca -, but had the computing power of a much higher level AI. TAG was a tactical genius, but rather limited in his free will for lack of a better word compared to other ship AIs.
He was exactly what Tagon wanted: someone who flies the ship, executes his orders and provides tactical advise without getting their own ideas.
Compared to other AIs we have seen TAG was a chess computer - a very fancy one by our standards but still a chess computer.

Aunt Edith says: New comic.

Well, that is one way to prevent Para from creating one of her abominations. Give her just enough time to to finish the job exactly as specified.

A shame they do this, Para was so exited about being allowed to play. Let the girl have some fun from time to time - statistically her creation tend to do their jobs really well and even better than expected. Keeping her on a longer leash might even keep her more reasonable when she can really cut loose.

Marnath

2015-10-26, 08:28 PM

Commander Foxworthy has always loved stomping on Ventura's fun, this is nothing new.

Radar

2015-10-27, 03:52 AM

Commander Foxworthy has always loved stomping on Ventura's fun, this is nothing new.
I think it's more that they have no time for fun with those time constrains. In the end, Foxworthy's job is to make Ventura make her job whether she likes it or not.

Admiral Squish

2015-10-27, 08:33 AM

Am I the only one who can't see the page this morning? I get a 'is this your domain?' thingie.

eschmenk

2015-10-27, 09:03 AM

Am I the only one who can't see the page this morning? I get a 'is this your domain?' thingie.

It's just you (http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/schlockmercenary.com) (or it's been fixed since you tried).

memnarch

2015-10-27, 09:26 AM

Am I the only one who can't see the page this morning? I get a 'is this your domain?' thingie.

I think it's just you at the moment. There was a bit of discussion about the website having DNS issues earlier, so maybe you've still got a bit of that problem.

Kantaki

2015-10-27, 07:57 PM

Lizard Lord

2015-10-27, 08:22 PM

New comic.

Wait, Para isn't a officer anymore?
That’s because of the mess with her being a mole right?
Her last position with the Tough’s should have been shipowner for Cindercone.

But why doesn't Elf know this?
She should know Para’s rank and what information she gets.
And now she complains about having to work with the girl. That is really encouraging, Elf should do that with everyone.
Okay, Para could have said that more polite, but she was kinda stating the obvious.

And yes I say that despite missing it myself. Hypocritical, I know, but unlike Elf I’m not a commanding officer of the Toughs.

Para resigned from being coxswain and ordered Cindercone to only listen to Captain Tagon (an order I can only assume has been changed after the rise of Commodore Tagon). Because she never wanted to be in charge, she just wanted to be on the crew but Cindercone only wanted to take orders from her.

I don't know what position she demoted herself to, but I believe it might have been ensign (which I believe is what she started as.)

Cikomyr

2015-10-27, 09:01 PM

Enseign is the most junior officer grade you can hold in a Navy. Equivalent to a Second-Lieutenant in the army.

So... still officer.

I think she is just a Specialist now.

Marnath

2015-10-28, 06:06 AM

Ventura is a corporal right now. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-07-02)

Cikomyr

2015-10-28, 07:08 AM

Ventura is a corporal right now. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-07-02)

Nailed it!

eschmenk

2015-10-28, 07:04 PM

But why doesn't Elf know this?
She should know Para’s rank and what information she gets.
And now she complains about having to work with the girl. That is really encouraging, Elf should do that with everyone.
Okay, Para could have said that more polite, but she was kinda stating the obvious.

So Elf did know her rank, but evidently forgot. I don't know if Para would have access to the status reports or not, but even if she could access them, she may have chosen not to. She seems to have a bad attitude about being a noncom. She's acting like she would do what she's told to do, but no more. OTOH, she was excited about building the boats, so she's probably just being selective about the extra stuff that she won't do.

Spamotron

2015-10-28, 07:51 PM

Para could have said that her "improvements," to the boats could be parameters that the Toughs use them for that are different than what the original Oafans designed them to do. Different circumstances, different doctrine, different kinds of opponents. But that wouldn't be punchliney enough.

memnarch

2015-10-28, 08:44 PM

Kantaki

2015-10-29, 05:34 AM

The sad part is that it wouldn't surprise me if Para is right and the Oafan's died out because their technology wasn't as good as it could have been.
Just because Elf's reaction would be funny and because the (modern) Oafa seem to be airheads.

Marnath

2015-10-29, 06:26 AM

So Elf did know her rank, but evidently forgot. I don't know if Para would have access to the status reports or not, but even if she could access them, she may have chosen not to. She seems to have a bad attitude about being a noncom. She's acting like she would do what she's told to do, but no more. OTOH, she was excited about building the boats, so she's probably just being selective about the extra stuff that she won't do.

I guess you've forgotten, but she hates Elf. Like, a lot. The very first time they met was when Elf decided to treat her like a romantic rival (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2008-04-12). one time, they almost got into a fist-fight (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2009-04-14), and Thurl had to break it up.

And that was all before the whole "spy" thing.

lord_khaine

2015-10-29, 10:41 AM

But why doesn't Elf know this?
She should know Para’s rank and what information she gets.
And now she complains about having to work with the girl. That is really encouraging, Elf should do that with everyone.
Okay, Para could have said that more polite, but she was kinda stating the obvious.

Well i have honestly always thought Elf were kinda a bad officer, and for that matter more deserving of being locked up than most of the other toughts are.
Her main way of dealing with trouble is more often than not violence, even when dealing with shipmates.
And im honestly not surprised at her fumbling the situation.

Radar

2015-10-29, 01:28 PM

Well i have honestly always thought Elf were kinda a bad officer, and for that matter more deserving of being locked up than most of the other toughts are.
Her main way of dealing with trouble is more often than not violence, even when dealing with shipmates.
And im honestly not surprised at her fumbling the situation.
It seems she was promoted beyond her level of competence. She would probably still be a good junior officer or a sergeant. There is a visible frustration from her current position and she was quite obviously confused, what exactly she should be doing.

There was also a case of her drug-dependence, which was treated I guess (or was it just in the alternate timeline?), but some psychological baggage might still be there.

HandofShadows

2015-10-29, 03:58 PM

Elf has kicked her drug habit and has taken steps to make sure she cannot be addicted again. Or even exposed as she emptied the reserves in her battle armor of it. I think the problem is that Elf was not promoted out of her level of competence, but out of her training/experience level. She has to grow into the role as all officers in the military do. In the recent "rebellion" on Earth she acted decisively and even Murtaugh said pulled off a win where they should have lost. (Even with the ship being destroyed). She DOES still have a problem with dealing with some people an that is what is happening here. And let's face it Para is NOT an easy person to deal with.

Cikomyr

2015-10-29, 10:57 PM

What's with the sudden Elf-hate? she has demonstrated on multiple occasion that she is a fine line officer, platoon commander and executive officer. She has made multiple right calls at the right moments. Her first time being in charge of the ship was when her expertise was mostly about grunt command, and thus it's kind of normal she almost screwed the pooch.

But ever since? She rose to the occasion. The biggest failure she faced was learning to deal with a difficult Specialist Officer; namely, Para.

And people are calling her out NOW because she had a mental lapse regarding what documentation Para Ventura has access to? Forgetting for a moment that her intelligent interlocutor isn't privy to the same intel as her?

Well i have honestly always thought Elf were kinda a bad officer, and for that matter more deserving of being locked up than most of the other toughts are.
Her main way of dealing with trouble is more often than not violence, even when dealing with shipmates.
And im honestly not surprised at her fumbling the situation.

It seems she was promoted beyond her level of competence. She would probably still be a good junior officer or a sergeant. There is a visible frustration from her current position and she was quite obviously confused, what exactly she should be doing.

There was also a case of her drug-dependence, which was treated I guess (or was it just in the alternate timeline?), but some psychological baggage might still be there.

Radar

2015-10-30, 05:12 AM

What's with the sudden Elf-hate?
Where was the hate in my post? Stating that perhaps she is not doing that good in her current position is not hate. As for the pointing out drug abuse, I'm simply wondering, if it left any lasting problems, because it would explain, why she is ticked off more easily than others. And not all of here calls on the spot were good. Do you remember HTRN incident and her gambit to forcefuly teraport out? They lucked out, but the call was anything but good.

Kantaki

2015-10-30, 05:12 AM

What's with the sudden Elf-hate? she has demonstrated on multiple occasion that she is a fine line officer, platoon commander and executive officer. She has made multiple right calls at the right moments. Her first time being in charge of the ship was when her expertise was mostly about grunt command, and thus it's kind of normal she almost screwed the pooch.

But ever since? She rose to the occasion. The biggest failure she faced was learning to deal with a difficult Specialist Officer; namely, Para.

And people are calling her out NOW because she had a mental lapse regarding what documentation Para Ventura has access to? Forgetting for a moment that her intelligent interlocutor isn't privy to the same intel as her?

Especially since we talk about Para. Not being privy to information is not the same as not having access to it. If someone like Para doesn't have that information she didn't try to get it.

New comic.

Really Schlock? Everyone knows you aren't that stupid. On the other hand he did steal from someone allied to him so who knows what is going on in his body.

Cikomyr

2015-10-30, 06:08 AM

Where was the hate in my post? Stating that perhaps she is not doing that good in her current position is not hate. As for the pointing out drug abuse, I'm simply wondering, if it left any lasting problems, because it would explain, why she is ticked off more easily than others. And not all of here calls on the spot were good. Do you remember HTRN incident and her gambit to forcefuly teraport out? They lucked out, but the call was anything but good.

Off course i do. I actually, deliberately called out that incident in my post. See the point about her first time in command of the ship where she nearly screwed the pooch.

That was the case of a totally inexperienced officer being left in a command position above her expertise. (Inexperience regarding Starship Operations). I dont see why we should expect anyone to have instant knowledge of a ship's systems and the practical application of.its technology.

Since that incident, we were lead to believe that she got an education on those systems. Hell, she managed to pull off a technical solution that Murtaugh herself admitted couldnt have achieved.

factotum

2015-10-30, 07:03 AM

That was the case of a totally inexperienced officer being left in a command position above her expertise. (Inexperience regarding Starship Operations). I dont see why we should expect anyone to have instant knowledge of a ship's systems and the practical application of.its technology.

Perhaps more to the point, it's doubtful if *anyone* in a command position of the Toughs apart from Kevyn himself knew enough about teraport and TAD to realise how dangerous it was to do what she tried. It should be noted that event took place only 6 years after the beginning of the strip (and thus the invention of the teraport)--it was more than 9 years ago, so we would hope Elf has gained a lot of command experience since!

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-30, 12:05 PM

What's with the sudden Elf-hate? she has demonstrated on multiple occasion that she is a fine line officer, platoon commander and executive officer.

Well, with me, it's nothing sudden. :smallbiggrin: I've never been able to stand her -- she's always come across as a nasty, vicious, obnoxious scumbag to me, and she's definitely my least favorite among the Toughs.

Of course, that's a feature, not a bug. In any group, there should be someone fairly intolerable to some readers; it makes the story a bit more interesting and gives it more verisimilitude.

"Hate" is probably too strong a word for a comic character, of course; but I'd definitely hate her if she were real, and I was stuck anywhere in her vicinity. :smallwink: If directly under her command, I'd probably quit the Toughs outright.

eschmenk

2015-10-30, 02:03 PM

I think that originally Howard Taylor tried to get humor out of having a little woman bullying guys, some of who were huge, but he overdid it. That made her very annoying to me. Later, he changed her into an intelligent, more likable character. If you consider the way she used to be still important, that would probably make her still be very unlikable for you.

Personally, I think much of what happens in SM is done just for the sake of humor and drama and I just try to ignore it. I try to not worry about the way Elf used to be or how stupid Schlock would have to be to not worry about the ramifications of stealing guns from SA or to think that a handgun would actually shoot hammers rather than bullets.

factotum

2015-10-30, 04:51 PM

I try to not worry about the way Elf used to be or how stupid Schlock would have to be to not worry about the ramifications of stealing guns from SA or to think that a handgun would actually shoot hammers rather than bullets.

Schlock can sometimes seem more intelligent than he is because of his near-perfect memory recall and many years of experience, but realistically he *is* stupid--or at the very least, dangerously deficient in common sense. Intelligent people don't throw themselves into a kilometres-deep hole without first checking that the suit they're occupying has flight capability, for instance.

Kantaki

2015-10-30, 07:22 PM

Alex Knight

2015-10-30, 08:03 PM

realistically he *is* stupid--or at the very least, dangerously deficient in common sense.

As Bunni put it, he's more alien than 98% of the people you will ever meet. His thought processes are that far removed from what we'd consider "common sense".

Rockphed

2015-10-30, 08:19 PM

New comic.

Et tu Legs? Ebbey just explained Schlock that he can't keep the gun. And the first thing you do is snatching it?
Oh, well those are the grunts of a mercenary outfit. Its not like you can expect them to be smart.:smallsigh:*
And the gun isn’t special either I bet, no super rare limited edition collectable just some Sanctum Adroit member’s favourite toy.

*Disclaimer: I do not think that soldiers, mercenaries, sellswords or anyone else working in a similar business is per se stupid. Those characters just make this kind of comment to easy to resist.

Legs, unlike schlock, does not build her self worth on how many weapons stolen from other people she is carrying around in her mouth at any given time. She will probably put the gun in Ebby's care as soon as schlock promises not to steal it again.

eschmenk

2015-10-30, 08:41 PM

Legs, unlike schlock, does not build her self worth on how many weapons stolen from other people she is carrying around in her mouth at any given time. She will probably put the gun in Ebby's care as soon as schlock promises not to steal it again.

Either that or she may return it to SA herself. Either way, Ebby and Legs are probably following a plan that Ebby came up with.

As Bunni put it, he's more alien than 98% of the people you will ever meet. His thought processes are that far removed from what we'd consider "common sense".

I predict that he's more alien that 100% of the people *I* will ever meet. :smallcool:

That said, his behavior isn't all that alien. Although it's anachronistic, his behavior, including such things as facial expressions, are intended to be easily understood and relatable for early 21st Century Western human readers.

factotum

2015-10-31, 02:37 AM

As Bunni put it, he's more alien than 98% of the people you will ever meet. His thought processes are that far removed from what we'd consider "common sense".

Throwing yourself into a hole that deep without a flight suit is suicide. Unless these hypothetical aliens are all lemmings who enjoy throwing themselves off cliffs (and yes, I know that's not really a thing, I'm just going with the traditional view here) then what he did was stupid no matter how alien his thought processes are.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-10-31, 03:05 AM

Throwing yourself into a hole that deep without a flight suit is suicide. Unless these hypothetical aliens are all lemmings who enjoy throwing themselves off cliffs (and yes, I know that's not really a thing, I'm just going with the traditional view here) then what he did was stupid no matter how alien his thought processes are.

In complete fairness to Schlock, he has Thrown himself off high places before and survived, so it wasn't till after he made the leap that he realized that he can't make himself glide in a vaccum.

Lizard Lord

2015-10-31, 03:54 AM

New comic.

Et tu Legs? Ebbey just explained Schlock that he can't keep the gun. And the first thing you do is snatching it?

I was under the impression that Legs is working with Ebby here, possibly under his orders even.

Did you really think Ebby excepted Schlock to just hand a weapon over?

eschmenk

2015-10-31, 12:00 PM

I still think the way the current plot's flow is dragging is a consequence of how much energy Planet Mercenary is draining from HT. The recent Sunday strip with the pirates was more a sourcebook teaser than anything comic related.

Doing a Kickstarter for a product of any sort is brutal work if everything I've read is true, we'll likely see this trend continue until a few months after Planet Mercenary finishes shipping.

The latest blog post (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/blog/there-will-be-no-2016-schlock-calendar) seems consistent with that explanation, although it doesn't actually say so. Somewhat ironically, I thought the most recent update was one of the best ones we've seen lately.

Bulldog Psion

2015-10-31, 04:58 PM

As Bunni put it, he's more alien than 98% of the people you will ever meet. His thought processes are that far removed from what we'd consider "common sense".

One of his most alien moments, I thought, was when he blasted the Balt Binion gavmogre with the plasgun, firing out through his own body, with a guardedly neutral expression on his face.

Most of the time, yes, his actions are reactions aren't that alien at all (other than killing people and eating their ashes, anyway :smallbiggrin: ). But that was one of a handful of occasions when he seemed more on the "alien" side.

Kantaki

2015-10-31, 07:19 PM

eschmenk

2015-10-31, 08:21 PM

Seriously, this should have been easy. What exactly went wrong there? The way I understand it they don't have a single design for the boats, but only pieces that don't fit together. Is that right? Weird, usually things go wrong after Para build something.

I'm not certain what caused the problem, but based on previous stories I would guess that the designs were incredibly old (it's ancient Oafan stuff) and the available design data became corrupted over time. The parts of the design that were turned into gibberish by data corruption were probably removed, but what's left would be just bits and pieces of the original design. They might have to look at the wreckage of the two boats or dismantle a third to figure out the missing information. I think the Prabstdi were running into similar problems. Something else could be the problem, though. We don't have enough information to be sure.

Kevyn has been known to screw up before and to minimize the problems others were having with his work. (Kind of like what Elf was doing just now.) He might not know how bad the data was and just expected Elf and Para to just deal with it.

At this rate I won't be surprised if the godwill mission ends with Broken Wind and Cindercone destroyed and the Toughs being responsible for giving the Pa'anuri a bridgehead in the Milkyway.

At this rate, I'm not sure if the goodwill mission will ever actually start. But given what you said maybe that will be a good thing. :smallamused:

memnarch

2015-10-31, 08:43 PM

New comic.

I agree Elf, Para should respect the Mad Scientist's rank. Now go and shout at your boyfriend.

Seriously, this should have been easy. What exactly went wrong there? The way I understand it they don't have a single design for the boats, but only pieces that don't fit together. Is that right? Weird, usually things go wrong after Para build something.

At this rate I won't be surprised if the godwill mission ends with Broken Wind and Cindercone destroyed and the Toughs being responsible for giving the Pa'anuri a bridgehead in the Milkyway.

Perhaps it's that the Oafan boat designs aren't close enough to existing designs the fabber knows how to output, probably including some issues with the extravagant PTU hulls. I'd agree there's probably some issues making the parts fit together as well, sort of like how someone might be able to see a puzzle box and mess with it a bit, but not be able to build one themselves if it breaks.

Kantaki

2015-10-31, 08:58 PM

Perhaps it's that the Oafan boat designs aren't close enough to existing designs the fabber knows how to output, probably including some issues with the extravagant PTU hulls. I'd agree there's probably some issues making the parts fit together as well, sort of like how someone might be able to see a puzzle box and mess with it a bit, but not be able to build one themselves if it breaks.

I think if this were just about the computer not understanding the blueprints Para and Elf* could work around it(not that they even have blueprints). But even they seem to think that the specifications for the various parts don't fit together. Who knows, maybe the inside is bigger than the outside, the engines are square-shaped while the corresponding hullsection is round and the bridge is inside the freefall pool. If they didnt understand the oafan ships (I mean the sciencey crewmembers) there should have been trouble already.

*she might be short tempered, but she isnt stupid - and I think she has proven at some point that she is pretty good at using the fabbers.

Rockphed

2015-10-31, 09:38 PM

I think if this were just about the computer not understanding the blueprints Para and Elf* could work around it(not that they even have blueprints). But even they seem to think that the specifications for the various parts don't fit together. Who knows, maybe the inside is bigger than the outside, the engines are square-shaped while the corresponding hullsection is round and the bridge is inside the freefall pool. If they didnt understand the oafan ships (I mean the sciencey crewmembers) there should have been trouble already.

*she might be short tempered, but she isnt stupid - and I think she has proven at some point that she is pretty good at using the fabbers.

Reading this strip I was reminded that Elf broke Kevin the first time she did something with the fabber. She might not be an engineering genius, but she does know how to bang on the box until it fears her. I think she might be the perfect officer to watch Para.

eschmenk

2015-10-31, 09:40 PM

But even they seem to think that the specifications for the various parts don't fit together. Who knows, maybe the inside is bigger than the outside, the engines are square-shaped while the corresponding hullsection is round and the bridge is inside the freefall pool.

That's not the way I read it. It sounded much more like the problem was that information was missing. The "'bad get-ref' alerts" and "linkage failures" sounds like they had information that part 2i8a2kgfl6t was to include sub-parts 224io234hoji and 23asfdhio and 2w34r5hjioa, but there is no information about what sub-part 23asfdhio was or maybe how it was attached to the other sub-parts, for example. I think the "linkages" that failed during compilation were links between the various pieces of information that comprised the design. (The compiler would have to link the missing information about sub-part 23asfdhio to part 2i8a2kgfl6t before it could understand what part 2i8a2kgfl6t was.) The bad get-ref alerts were probably things like alerts that getting the reference to the information about sub-part 23asfdhio failed. (I think HT was using some half-remembered computer science terminology to write the dialog.)

Another hint that information was missing was Para saying, "'Tetchy.' That means they require an explicit instruction set, right?" Para seemed to be implying that the "instruction set" wasn't available or it wasn't complete.

I think that if the parts simply wouldn't have fit together, Para and Elf would have been saying things that would have made that more obvious. (Para would have said said something more like, ""Techy'. That means the parts have to fit together, right," for example.)

factotum

2015-11-01, 02:31 AM

ryuplaneswalker

2015-11-01, 06:50 AM

Para should respect the Mad Scientist's rank.

You should always respect the Mad Scientists rank, not respecting his rank gets you on the "guinea pig" list.

probably including some issues with the extravagant PTU hulls

You want to make what out of what? DOES NOT COMPUTE!

HandofShadows

2015-11-01, 08:29 AM

eschmenk

2015-11-01, 09:22 AM

I got the impression that the reason for the problem is that what they were supplied was not actually a design at all, corrupt or otherwise--it's just a set of specifications (e.g. length, height, width, available power etc). Building a boat from it would be akin to expecting to be able to build an Intel Core i7 processor by reading the spec sheet.

That's basically what the characters actually said. It seems ridiculous that neither Kevyn nor Para would have noticed that, though. I found that hard to believe, so I assumed that Para and Elf were exaggerating. Also, Para's body language in the first panel indicates that she was confused and hadn't yet figured out what the cause was, despite the fact she acted certain in the third panel. Then again, many other characters have been acting incredibly incompetently lately, so maybe it's Kevyn's turn. Also, characters often act inconsistently, so Para's body language might not mean much.

Also, there isn't really a solid distinction between specifications and designs. Length, height, width, available power, etc. would all be design variables. Spec sheets are a high-level summary of the design. The complete set of detailed specifications, including all the information about how everything goes together, would be the design. That's why it's conceivable that Para and Elf might call an incomplete design, "a stack of specs".

The fact that there were "millions of linkage failures" made me think that Para fed the fabber a lot of detailed information rather than just high-level specs. OTOH, even if Para fed the fabber just the high-level specifications for each part, if the boats were made up of enough parts, it could all add up. Or it's conceivable that Kevin gave Para the detailed specifications for each individual part, but no information for how anything connected together. Or maybe Para was just exaggerating. :smallconfused:

I think we really can't be certain what the problem was yet. I prefer the idea the the problem was data corruption over an extremely long time frame because it wouldn't make Kevyn look so bad and it's consistent with themes that Howard Taylor has repeated a lot in the last couple of years, but maybe it's just that Kevyn screwed up and gave Para "slop". :smallconfused:

Marnath

2015-11-01, 12:07 PM

memnarch

2015-11-01, 12:27 PM

What I want to know is why they can't just scour all those stupidly large docking facilities they saw when they first got here and get a couple more boats out of stasis. Almost two million square klicks of docking facility can't all be empty.

Yeah, that'd make sense. Maybe they sold off all of the ships that had those boats that they know of and didn't check for more yet?

eschmenk

2015-11-01, 12:31 PM

What I want to know is why they can't just scour all those stupidly large docking facilities they saw when they first got here and get a couple more boats out of stasis. Almost two million square klicks of docking facility can't all be empty.

Maybe all that is owned by the Oafans, rather than the Toughs?

One thing that has never been explained is the relationship between the Oafans and the Toughs. Originally, the Toughs were hired to do something they couldn't do, and the Oafans had no ability to pay them anyway, so that amounted to nothing. Finally, the Oafan's old AI gave the Toughs a few ships, including Cindercone and Broken Wind, in return for being allowed to be Broken Wind's AI! (How the AI had the authority to give Oafan ships away and why the AI didn't just seize a ship and take off with it if it just wanted to leave the station and explore space were never explained.) It's not clear if the Toughs can easily get anything more from the Oafans than they already have. OTOH, the Toughs should have so much money from the ships they sold that they could easily buy replacement boats if the Oafans were willing to sell them at a reasonable price. Who knows, maybe the Tough's contract says that the Oafans are responsible for whatever costs the Toughs incur while doing their job; if that's the case, the Oafans should owe them the replacement costs for the boats.

Anyway, this is one of the things that we don't know enough about to know what to expect. Trying to figure it out goes nowhere because the information just isn't there.

-----------

New comic: (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-11-02)

Then again, many other characters have been acting incredibly incompetently lately, so maybe it's Kevyn's turn.

Well, apparently it was Kevyn's turn to act ridiculously incompetent. Evidently Factotum and HandofShadows were right. It seems that Kevyn merely sent a bunch of specs with no information about how to actually build the things that were supposed to meet those specs. :smallyuk: And even though it was just the specs, Para went ahead and threw it into the fabber as if she thought that everything was going to work out somehow. :smallyuk: The boats are needed in less than 20 hours now. The one person (an AI, actually) who might have some appreciation of the problem is being ignored. This is just stupid.

The Toughs are tuning into The Mercenary Company Whose Officers Can't Do Anything Right. Iafa should probably be regretting his/her/it's decision to be their AI.

Maybe the AIs will save the Toughs from the officers' mistakes one more time...

memnarch

2015-11-02, 12:05 AM

So it's a combo of missing fabrication equipment and fabrication techniques. Kinda seems like we have another "Order them to be brilliant (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-02-09)" situation. :smalltongue: I wonder how much different the result will end up being seeing as the hull looks to be the main issue here.

Kantaki

2015-11-02, 08:09 AM

:smallbiggrin:I really like Para's outside the box thinking.:smallbiggrin: It seems they have tried a few things already. But it's not like she doesn't have a point, can't they just use something else for the hulls?
Unless she really meant that they should built the boats without hulls. In that case she should be the first one to fly them. Or get some rest.

eschmenk

2015-11-02, 10:16 AM

Come to think of it, why is it very important to replace the two apparently unarmed boats when they have a dozen or so remaining, but replacing Neosynchronicity is so unimportant that they aren't even trying to do that? Shouldn't Murtaugh notice sooner or later that she is missing a ship to command and ask for a replacement?

I don't know if Neosychronicity was the same size, but it was roughly the same shape as the boats, so maybe Neosychronicity replacements could dock with Broken Wind the same way as the boats did.

:smallbiggrin:I really like Para's outside the box thinking.:smallbiggrin:

As a Corporal it's not really her job, but rather than asking about the hull, somebody should have asked, "How important are the boats, really?" Is there something else we need even more?

Or maybe, as Marnath said, there might be a bunch of unused boats (or corvettes) available and they could get a couple of them much more easily. It's too bad the Toughs don't have any competent senior officers to think about things like that.

Mobius Twist

2015-11-02, 01:25 PM

Force multiplication is ever-so-much-more effective if you have a bigger force to multiply.

Lvl 2 Expert

2015-11-02, 06:19 PM

I don't think they plan to ever put people in those boats. They engaged without crew in that last fight. So the question is what the lack of hull will do to all the (normally) internal machinery.

I don't know how yet, but this might be one of those things the pirate situation was set up to cause, the design of either the old or the new boats may become important later on.

eschmenk

2015-11-02, 06:44 PM

The point of a boat is to ferry people or supplies. Since the Toughs seem to want to bring Cindercone with them whenever they go somewhere, there probably wouldn't be a huge need to haul supplies (except occasionally back and forth from Cindercone) so the Toughs' officers probably think they need the boats mostly to haul people (assuming they are thinking about it at all). Transporting people would also explain why Elf thought having a hull was important.

Presumably the Toughs primary use for the boats would be to carry landing parties when they attack a target. (Remember the Harmadillo boats we were introduced to a few weeks ago.) If the Toughs really need all those boats to land troops, it must mean that the Mercenary company is a much larger organization than it used to be.

If the Toughs haven't recently added a huge number of people that we haven't met yet, they would almost certainly be much better off with additional corvettes than additional boats. They wouldn't need to have as many people to justify having them.

I don't think they plan to ever put people in those boats. They engaged without crew in that last fight. So the question is what the lack of hull will do to all the (normally) internal machinery.

I thought Para's question about the hull being important was merely supposed to be a ridiculous question for the sake of Howard Taylor be able to obey his obligatory joke rule. (That rule leads to a tremendous amount of confusion about how to interpret the comics.)

I think you were talking about turning the boats into drones. (If it wasn't intended to be able to carry people or cargo, it wouldn't be a boat anymore.) The thing is that if you want a drone, you should start by building a drone. There would be a heck of a lot of life-support stuff in a boat (a lot more than just the hull) that drones wouldn't need to have, so it would be very inefficient to build drones by starting with plans for a boat.

FWIW, I question your assertion that the boats engaged without crew in the last fight. I don't think we ever knew how they were crewed or even what they were doing, except for little bits and pieces. The boats, by definition, wouldn't carry weapons to be used in ship-to-ship engagements. (If they did, they would be ships, not boats.) [EDIT: I changed my mind. I now think that Kaff was just too stupid to realize that Cindercone was a ship in the first panel here (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-03-14) and that he actually was wrong and Karl was right about there being three ships.] In any case, none of the senior officers seemed to have any ideas about what to do in the battle (except for what to do with Ebby's platoon), so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that anyway.

Marcelinari

2015-11-02, 08:35 PM

I would be a lot more interested in this particular digression in the comic if we had any inkling of what the boats could already do (by, for example, having seen them in combat), so that when Para inevitably alters and improves upon the design, we could really appreciate the difference, rather than my current impression, which is 'Oafan boats kinda suck, are overly-reliant on a physical hull which is clearly not as effective as point defense and gravy are, and apparently the only thing they did in the fight was send telemetry to Chinook and blow up a bit'.

I might be coming off a little bitter - I think I might be.

eschmenk

2015-11-02, 10:37 PM

I might be coming off a little bitter - I think I might be.

You didn't come across as excessively bitter to me. I agree with you.

New comic (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-11-03):

Para and Elf pretty much agreed with you about the Oafan hulls not being worth much and that they needed better point defenses. (Para wanted improved shields, not gravy, though. I think the boats may be too small to use gravy effectively.)

I don't know how much more the characters will summarize the the battle for us. I would rather have known what was going on during it, though.

Douglas

2015-11-03, 01:49 AM

My guess is that the Oafan ships were designed to be good against enemies that have technological parity with them - enemies whose primary threat is a long gun. Point defense and shields do jack and squat against that kind of weaponry, but maybe the PTU hulls mitigate the damage some? Then again, a conventional shot of plasma was apparently enough to roast the entire ship from a single hole and a long gun hit seems like it should be very similar in effect.

eschmenk

2015-11-03, 03:06 AM

The ancient Oafa were fighting the Pa'anuri. The Pa'anuri don't actually use weapons as such (so no long guns) but they would physically crush hulls using gravity. I think the PTUs would help make the hulls especially strong and might mask the annie plants inside the hulls to some extent. Conventional point defenses and shields wouldn't be of much use against the Pa'anuri, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were lacking.

When Para acted as a coxswain, she needed the boat's AI to tell her what to say, so I wouldn't particularly expect her to know much about what is important in boat designs. Maybe she will improve things. Maybe she will make things worse. Who knows? I think the idea that Para and Elf could redesign the boats and figure out how to build them in less than 40 man hours is absurd in any case. Still, it makes sense that the old designs would have had unusually light shielding and point defenses and overbuilt hulls, so Para could easily be correct in the current update at least.

halfeye

2015-11-03, 11:37 AM

Come to think of it, why is it very important to replace the two apparently unarmed boats when they have a dozen or so remaining, but replacing Neosynchronicity is so unimportant that they aren't even trying to do that?

Neosynchronicity belonged to Enesby, it's up to Enesby to (negotiate for the Toughs to) replace it.

The ancient Oafa were fighting the Pa'anuri. The Pa'anuri don't actually use weapons as such (so no long guns) but they would physically crush hulls using gravity. I think the PTUs would help make the hulls especially strong and might mask the annie plants inside the hulls to some extent. Conventional point defenses and shields wouldn't be of much use against the Pa'anuri, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were lacking.

When Para acted as a coxswain, she needed the boat's AI to tell her what to say, so I wouldn't particularly expect her to know much about what is important in boat designs. Maybe she will improve things. Maybe she will make things worse. Who knows? I think the idea that Para and Elf could redesign the boats and figure out how to build them in less than 40 man hours is absurd in any case. Still, it makes sense that the old designs would have had unusually light shielding and point defenses and overbuilt hulls, so Para could easily be correct in the current update at least.

If I were designing ships, they'd mostly (cruise ships being the major exception) be Ekranoplans, so that may well work out interesting.

Lvl 2 Expert

2015-11-04, 08:46 AM

The boats, by definition, wouldn't carry weapons to be used in ship-to-ship engagements. (If they did, they would be ships, not boats.)

Even though you scratched that, torpedo boats and submarines have been a pretty big thing here on earth.

eschmenk

2015-11-04, 10:09 AM

Even though you scratched that, torpedo boats and submarines have been a pretty big thing here on earth.

Yeah, but so have ore boats, literally. :smallwink: Whatever definition you pick, there would be exceptions to it. As I said, I had inferred the Tough's definition of boat from what Kaff had said. Kaff hadn't counted Cindercone as a ship because it was unarmed. I originally thought that was more significant than it turned out to be.

guttering flame

2015-11-04, 11:52 AM

Yeah, but so have ore boats, literally. :smallwink: Whatever definition you pick, there would be exceptions to it. As I said, I had inferred the Tough's definition of boat from what Kaff had said. Kaff hadn't counted Cindercone as a ship because it was unarmed. I originally thought that was more significant than it turned out to be.

Cindercone may not be a Tagon-Ship but it's not a Tagon-Boat either. You need to recheck your logic. In this merceneray troop everything that can be weaponised to the gills will be.

Radar

2015-11-04, 01:22 PM

Honestly, the the thing that stands out in today's comics for me is the short fab it from Elf. It has the same vibe as ship it from software developers and the similiarity of those situations is quite funny in its own right. The difference is that Elf still wants to make tests after making a complete build. :smalltongue:

eschmenk

2015-11-04, 01:26 PM

Cindercone may not be a Tagon-Ship but it's not a Tagon-Boat either.

Right, but Karl responded by arguing that Cindercone wasn't a boat, so I originally thought that Kaff must have thought that it was a boat.

You need to recheck your logic. In this merceneray troop everything that can be weaponised to the gills will be.

I struck out what I wrote and said that I had changed my mind, so why are you still arguing about it and trying to convince me that I need to change my logic?

Honestly, the the thing that stands out in today's comics for me is the short fab it from Elf. It has the same vibe as ship it from software developers and the similiarity of those situations is quite funny in its own right. The difference is that Elf still wants to make tests after making a complete build. :smalltongue:

What about the fact that they hacked out a complete design from obsolete specs in just six hours? :smallamused:

Mobius Twist

2015-11-04, 08:11 PM

Thursday's comic portrays the different in approach of someone who has dealt with sleep-deprived grunts versus someone who gets by leaning heavily on brilliance.

Cikomyr

2015-11-04, 08:47 PM

But the fact that she went to get some rest is probably what made her realize their mistake in the first place.

Ya know. Getting some perspective

Marnath

2015-11-04, 09:30 PM

Thursday's comic portrays the different in approach of someone who has dealt with sleep-deprived grunts versus someone who gets by leaning heavily on brilliance.

It's also worth mentioning that Elf is somewhere in the neighborhood of twice Para's age. She's been there, done that.

eschmenk

2015-11-04, 10:16 PM

NEO|Phyte

2015-11-04, 10:59 PM

The main thing that I'm noticing is that both Elf and especially Para did a far better job of figuring out what the Toughs needed than the more experienced senior officers did. Para and Elf were told to build according to the specs even though the specs were proven inadequate in the battle. Despite those instructions, even though they weren't involved in the battle, they apparently largely ignored the specs (they downgraded the hull, and upgraded the shields and point defenses and now they are adding VDA capability and who knows what else they changed), because they quickly realized things that the senior officers who were involved in the battle still haven't managed to figure out. The senior officers just keep looking more and more incompetent.

I almost hope that it turns out that Elf and Para screwed up so that Kaff and Karl and the rest don't continue to look so ridiculously incompetent by comparison.
I am reasonably sure you are overthinking things.

The senior officers weren't concerned with improving the design of their boats, they were concerned with replacing their missing boats within a 20 hour deadline. Elf and Para's redesign happened because the specs they were sent weren't usable, so they had to dig into it and tweak it until it compiled.

Under normal circumstances, a deadline that tight is not the time to go for major design changes.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-11-04, 11:40 PM

The main thing that I'm noticing is that both Elf and especially Para did a far better job of figuring out what the Toughs needed than the more experienced senior officers did. Para and Elf were told to build according to the specs even though the specs were proven inadequate in the battle. Despite those instructions, even though they weren't involved in the battle, they apparently largely ignored the specs (they downgraded the hull, and upgraded the shields and point defenses and now they are adding VDA capability and who knows what else they changed), because they quickly realized things that the senior officers who were involved in the battle still haven't managed to figure out. The senior officers just keep looking more and more incompetent.

I almost hope that it turns out that Elf and Para screwed up so that Kaff and Karl and the rest don't continue to look so ridiculously incompetent by comparison.

I think it is just a matter of Delegation.

Kevyn needs boats made, he sent them to his "make things" division to get them made, I think Para confused "Stuff this in the fabber" specs with "You, you make boats, I need boats like this get it done in x amount of time" orders.