Gnome Barbarian. Having difficulty ordering feats/Rage Powers.

[dascarletm]

Okay, so due to circumstance I stand to start playing a gnome barbarian with a group containing my wife's friends. Most are new to dnd, so I don't want to go overboard with the power level, but I want to be competent. The game is a little on the silly side, and it will be a nice reprieve from my usually very serious games I have going. The game starts at level 1 but I don't know when it will end. Probably if/when the group collapses.



Myself: Gnome Barbarian
My Wife: Vodoo Oracle - she has some experience but usually doesn't optimize
Wife Friend A: Druid... She has very little experience 0 optimization. Just wants to turn into a cat, and summon cats.
Wife Friend B: Cleric - unsure of her experience level.
Boyfriend of A: Tengu Monk - Moderate experience, I've never played with him before.



So, Gnome barbarian. Not going to steal the show, but I want this guy to be able to kill stuff when the time comes. This game is on the silly side, so I picked up some of the rage powers that would be funny to imagine a gnome doing. That being said the Hurling line and body bludgeon must stay, even if they are non-optimal. I'm also having trouble picking/ordering my feats. This is what I have so far. Bolded items I feel must stay unless you provide a good case against it. I also have some feats that I am considering working in, but if you think there are better feats for a gnome barbarian let me know.:smallbiggrin:

1. Power Attack
3. Cleave.
5. Raging Vitality
7.
9.
11.
13.
15.
17.
19.

Possible Feats:
Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Improved Cleaving Finish, Death or Glory
Arcane Strike, Weapon Focus, Small but Deadly

Rage Powers:
2. Lesser Hurling
4. Surprise Accuracy - ?
6. Deadly Accuracy - ?
8. Hurling
10. Body Bludgeon
12. Greater Hurling
14. Come and Get Me
16. Lethal Accuracy - ?
18. ?
20. ?

Possible Powers:
Auspicious Mark
EDIT: Updated Below

Stats after racials - Rolled with a couple points to put in after (not my preference on generation but hey.)
Str: 16
Dex: 15
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 5
Cha: 11
(I know low wis hurts... but I would rather roleplay low wis than cha or int.)

Traits/ Flaws. Against my protests the DM really wants us to take some of the DnDWiki Flaws in order to gain more traits.
Drawback: Short Temper When damaged you fly into a rage.
Drawback: Short Attention Span -2 penalty any time they try to make the same skill check more than once in a row. The penalty will stack on each other, making the penalty for the next check -4, -6, -8 and so on.
Coherent Rage Can use Escape Artist while raging
Rapscallion +1 to Escape artist and +1 to initiative
Rough and Ready When you use a tool of your trade as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack.

Could choose better traits, but since it is mandatory I have craft (cooking) rough and ready is needed to whack baddies with skillets. Unsure about rapscallion with coherent rage to get escape artist. I have been traumatized by grappling in the past.


Anyway thank you for helping I really appreciate it!

[Geddy2112]

First off, congrats on making a gnome barbarian! They are absolutely brutal to play. I played a titan mauler gnome once; I carried dual greatswords and would start a rage by ripping my shirt open, looking at the largest enemy and screaming "COME AT ME BRO".

Since you are playing a wisdom of 5, which is described as "seemingly incapable of planning" I expect you to surpass such zanyness on a session basis.

I used intimidate a lot, and since your cha is positive thanks to racial mods, you might as well too. I picked up cornugon smash at level seven for action economy. You can weapon focus/dazzling display, but since you will be improvising weapons It might not be the best choice. Point blank shot is a good choice, and I would take arcane strike before cleave. If you are going to be throwing things, you need magic to hit incorporeal targets and bypass DR. I like breadth of experience on any race I can take it. It fits a gnome of your intelligence as well. If you are going intimidate build, take intimidating prowess.

Surprise and deadly accuracy are probably worse than arcane strike for your swift action, and they eat rage powers. Hurling and body bludgeon are great; I would take animal fury, partly because it is really fun to bite people, and partly because it helps you in grapples. It makes sense for your character to bite, kick, and scratch if they are grappled. Intimidating glare works well if you are going the cleave route. Boasting taunt works well with intimidating and come and get me. Internal fortitude and fearless rage are always good, and I like fueled by vengeance personally, and you might want to consider the superstitious tree, particularly with your low wis.

Don't try to win grapple fights with escape artist. You have the strength to boost your CMB, as it will level. Escape artist is a horribly situational skill, and it is only useful if you max it. Your CMB does not need skill ranks, and improvements to your strength and dex will just make you better overall. Plus, with short attention span you are basically screwed using skills in combat.

[dascarletm]

First off, congrats on making a gnome barbarian! They are absolutely brutal to play. I played a titan mauler gnome once; I carried dual greatswords and would start a rage by ripping my shirt open, looking at the largest enemy and screaming "COME AT ME BRO".

Since you are playing a wisdom of 5, which is described as "seemingly incapable of planning" I expect you to surpass such zanyness on a session basis.

I used intimidate a lot, and since your cha is positive thanks to racial mods, you might as well too. I picked up cornugon smash at level seven for action economy. You can weapon focus/dazzling display, but since you will be improvising weapons It might not be the best choice. Point blank shot is a good choice, and I would take arcane strike before cleave. If you are going to be throwing things, you need magic to hit incorporeal targets and bypass DR. I like breadth of experience on any race I can take it. It fits a gnome of your intelligence as well. If you are going intimidate build, take intimidating prowess.

Surprise and deadly accuracy are probably worse than arcane strike for your swift action, and they eat rage powers. Hurling and body bludgeon are great; I would take animal fury, partly because it is really fun to bite people, and partly because it helps you in grapples. It makes sense for your character to bite, kick, and scratch if they are grappled. Intimidating glare works well if you are going the cleave route. Boasting taunt works well with intimidating and come and get me. Internal fortitude and fearless rage are always good, and I like fueled by vengeance personally, and you might want to consider the superstitious tree, particularly with your low wis.

Don't try to win grapple fights with escape artist. You have the strength to boost your CMB, as it will level. Escape artist is a horribly situational skill, and it is only useful if you max it. Your CMB does not need skill ranks, and improvements to your strength and dex will just make you better overall. Plus, with short attention span you are basically screwed using skills in combat.

Thanks for the advice! What ways can I increase the size of the opponent that I can grapple?

[Geddy2112]

To my knowledge, you can grapple a creature of any size. If you don't want to start them but be effective, Deadly grappler allows you to do extra damage when you are grappled(with certain weapons).

Also, look into the under and over feat-it requires agile manuvers, which hurts your build. See if your DM will waive the requirement or require another feat. It goes well with other trip builds, including kobold style. Not grappling so much, but it is a good counter grapple strategy

[Psyren]

Are you going for a Str or Dex build? Keeping in mind that Gnomes have a strength penalty.

A dex build will let you avoid the penalty and you can take Urban Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/urban-barbarian) so that rage boosts your Dex instead of Strength. Alternatively, you can take Unchained Barbarian and use the paradoxically-named Strength Stance power to boost your CMB.

Going dex has another advantage - Combat Stamina (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules) + Agile Maneuvers will let you grapple with Dex, as well as grapple enemies of any size by spending stamina points to count as larger.

[dascarletm]

I had not considered going dex based. I was just planning on eating the strength hit. The DM upgraded a rolled 17 to an 18 for free so 16 str wasn't too bad. Also, I thought it would provide a bit of a challenge/the small but deadly would pretty much negate the penalty.


I'm afraid if I go dex based I'd be too feat starved, it intrigues me however. How would you order your feat progression on a dex based barbarian.

Oh! another thought was that I planned to go invulnerable rager, but it looks like I could combine both.

As far as getting dex to damage, Deadly agility seems like a good start, but not getting the strength and a half/power attack increase seems like a large hit to damage. Is there another avenue for this?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ehh... Dex may or may not be mechanically superior, once the increased feat demand is factored in, but Strength is much funnier. - 2 really isn't that big a deal- it's what, -1 attack and - ~2 damage? With Small size making up for the attack hit? Big whoop, especially at lower op levels. Besides, it's a lot harder to pick up dudes to hit other dudes with without Strength.

(Pirrana Strike can help make up for the loss of Power Attack, for reference)

[dascarletm]

Ehh... Dex may or may not be mechanically superior, once the increased feat demand is factored in, but Strength is much funnier. - 2 really isn't that big a deal- it's what, -1 attack and - ~2 damage? With Small size making up for the attack hit? Big whoop, especially at lower op levels. Besides, it's a lot harder to pick up dudes to hit other dudes with without Strength.

(Pirrana Strike can help make up for the loss of Power Attack, for reference)

Thanks for the input. I'm probably going to stick with strength. I'm thinking this feat layout.

Feats:
1. Power Attack
3. Cleave
5. Arcane Strike
7. Raging Vitality
9. Great Cleave
11. Death or Glory
13. Weapon Focus (Greatsword or similar)
15. Small But Deadly
17. Improved Critical ?
19. Dazzling Display?

Arcane strike at 5 since I doubt I'll see incorporeal monsters before 5, and I think at level 9 I should have an ability to kill masses of enemies if I get surrounded. Great Cleave will help with that. I'm unsure past that however.


For Rage Powers... I'm not sure.
Rage Powers:
2. Lesser Hurling
4. Auspicious Mark or No Escape or Fearless Rage?
6. Fueled by Vengeance
8. Hurling
10. Body Bludgeon
12. Greater Hurling
14. Come and Get Me
16. Auspicious Mark or No Escape or Fearless Rage?
18.
20.

Possible Ideas: Internal Fortitude, Superstitious?

I'm curious if auspicious mark or no escape would be better to take at 4. Since I don't want to delay hurling and body bludgeon I would have to wait till level 16 for the one I don't take at 4. I think fearless rage is also very important with how low my will saves would be... I could take the extra rage power feat, but that would mean moving my feats around... I'm too indecisive for my own good.

[Geddy2112]

Feats look pretty good. Power attack and raging vitality are the two big ones for barbarians, the rest are really depending on what you want to do with your character.

I would not take dazzling display, and if you do take it at low levels. It starts to lose use at higher levels and eventually it will be useless. Most/all of the enemies at high levels are fearless, and you need to be doing something with your standard action than inflicting shaken. So you could also drop weapon focus, but it is not bad. Neither is improved critical with a greatsword.

I am not personally a fan of no escape, but to each their own. It is not terrible, I would probably take it early. Auspicious mark is always handy, but never great. Fearless rage is good, and very important when enemies can start inflicting frightened or push lesser fear conditions into panicked. It is great anytime, almost needed at higher levels.

[Psyren]

Huh, I could have sworn that you can't grapple creatures two sizes larger than you but now I'm having trouble finding that rule. I must have been thinking of 3.5...?

[dascarletm]

Huh, I could have sworn that you can't grapple creatures two sizes larger than you but now I'm having trouble finding that rule. I must have been thinking of 3.5...?

Yes, I also thought that was a rule... perhaps we are the sole survivors of a very similar universe not unlike the Mandela effect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes, I also thought that was a rule... perhaps we are the sole survivors of a very similar universe not unlike the Mandela effect.
I think Pathfinder also dropped size penalties tremendously, which helps.

Feat-wise, maybe some grappling stuff? You've got a couple of rage powers that require it, after all. And Cornugan Smash; that guy is beautiful, and the casters will love you.

Rage Powers...I'm no expert, but...
Beast Totem tree looks solid (pounce!).
Good For What Ails You looks both useful and amusing.
Raging Grappler goes with the throwing dudes bit.
Reckless Abandon basically shifts the Power Attack penalty to AC, which isn't as good in Pathfinder but it's still nice.
Savage Jaw looks like both a good grapple combo and a hilarious visual.
Strength Surge could make up for the strength penalty and small size.

[True believer]

In case of the dex build you can put your dex into dmg but it requires 3 feats ( martial study , martial stance , shadowblade) and i dont know if u can afford it :S

You should take a look at Fist of the forest prestige class which actually provides a kind of rage that targets dex but i also has some stiff feat requirements.

In my opinion dex based characters demand a heavily feat investment to do what a str based character do with only one feat.

[tadkins]

I've got nothing really new to add since I don't know much about Barbarians. I just wanted to say that I applaud your choice to try and make a gnome one work. :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

In case of the dex build you can put your dex into dmg but it requires 3 feats ( martial study , martial stance , shadowblade) and i dont know if u can afford it :S
Pathfinder. It's still 3 feats/a dip and a feat, but different ones. (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Slashing/Piecing Grace; or Insightful Blade Swashbuckler and Slashing/Piecing Grace)

[dascarletm]

I'm thinking your right with adding in grappling, and Cornugon Smash, I love it. I'll probably replace death or glory with it, and move some other stuff around. I also wish imp unarmed strike was a prerequisite for all the grappling feats. Such a shame.

While pounce looks really tasty, I need to fit in three rage powers for it. The problem with barbarians is there is too many things I want and not enough slots to take all of them!:smallmad:

Deciding what to drop is more difficult... I think this is what I'll go for.

Feats:
1. Power Attack
3. Cleave
5. Arcane Strike Extra Rage Power (Fearless Rage)
7. Raging Vitality
9. Great Cleave
11. Cornugon Smash
13. Improved Unarmed Strike
15. Improved Grapple
17. Improved Critical
19. Death or Glory

Rage Powers:
2. Lesser Hurling
4. Animal Fury
6. Savage Jaw
8. Hurling
10. Body Bludgeon
12. Greater Hurling
14. Come and Get Me
16. Strength Surge
18. Fueled by Vengeance
20. Good for what ails you.

I am considering dropping a feat somewhere to pick up fearless rage. With such poor will saves I'd like to have a way to negate fear. Maybe I can just pick up an item for that though...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Arcane Strike, maybe? It's not much bonus damage, especially compared to two-handed power attacks, and you should have a magic weapon anyway by the time you get it.

[dascarletm]

Arcane Strike, maybe? It's not much bonus damage, especially compared to two-handed power attacks, and you should have a magic weapon anyway by the time you get it.

Good point. Thanks for the input and help by the way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My pleasure.