Ravenloft and Binders

[battlemindjase]

Hey everyone,

So I am going to be playing in a 3.5 Ravenloft game. I would like to play a Binder but my DM is advising against it because he says Ravenloft exists in another dimension and is cut off, even from the Void, so I wouldn't be able to bind any Vestiges while we are there. I have never played Ravenloft so I have no idea.

I know Ravenloft was published before Tome of Magic, so there really can't be a RAW ruling on Binders specifically. Anyone that has played it want to give their 2 cents? I would love to hear some other opinions

[ComaVision]

That's a poor excuse, unless he's banning all Divine casters as well.


That being said, if he doesn't want Binders then don't play a Binder.

[TheCrowing1432]

Theres no rules precedent for this, so its all up to the DM, and if he nixed it, then theres not much more to say.


If you want our opinions on it.

I think its dumb. I never like limiting my players options as a DM, especially with a ham fisted reason as "oh the plane you're on is cut off from (insert source of power)"

[battlemindjase]

He is not banning all divine casters. we have 2 clerics in the party

[EisenKreutzer]

Ask him why the clerics can remain in contact with their gods.

If it's a bull**** answer, he just doesn't want you to play a Binder.

[TheCrowing1432]

He is not banning all divine casters. we have 2 clerics in the party

Of course you do.


Sounds like your DM pulled out an arbitrary reason to ban binders. I mean if Ravenloft is cut off from The Void, why isnt it cut off from whatever plane the Gods reside in?

[Chronos]

I disagree with the DM's ruling. Vestiges don't come from a place called "The Void", wherever that is. They come from nowhere. There is no place where they exist. Any place that exists is equally different from "nowhere", so binders should be just as valid in Ravenloft as anywhere else. If anything, they'd be more likely to work than divine casters, who draw power from entities that actually do exist and have a location.

Plus, of course, binders are great for adding a creepy vibe to a game, which should be perfect for Ravenloft.

That said, however, he's the DM, and so unless you want to leave the game, he has final say.

[MrKeserian]

Hey all, I'm another player in the same game. I'm one of the two clerics, Clr5, Ordained Champion 5, Runecaster 10. Anyways, what the GM said is that Divine Casters don't get their power from where they think they do while in Ravenloft, hence why divine magic works weirdly. Honnestly, I'm agreeing with the suggestion that the GM doesn't like Binders, although I'm not sure why. Binder is flexible, but not nearly as powerful as the two clerics, warlock, or the other classes we have.

[WhamBamSam]

Yeah, your DM is full of crap and just looking for an excuse to ban Binders. If I had to guess, I'd say he's looking to make ability damage/drain stick more and sees Naberius as a potential thorn in his side.

I've actually been playing a Binder in a PBP Ravenloft game for a little over a year now. The character has been an absolute blast and fits into the setting really well.

[MrSinister]

There is so much potential for Binders in Ravenloft! When I ran a 3.5 RL game, I would have KILLED for a player to be a binder. The vestiges can be creations of the dark powers, or they can be the vestiges of all the summoned stuff that cannot return, or the ghosts of outsiders denied their place in the outer planes, or or or or ....

Now I want to go back in time and make a Half-Vistani Binder that uses an actual Tarrokka deck to manipulate the vestiges to his will by binding them in tarot cards.

[Nifft]

IMHO a Binder is very flavor-appropriate for Ravenloft, and Binders are generally much lower power than full spellcasters (which it seems are allowed in your game).

So yeah, it's probably just a DM who doesn't know much about the Binder.

If possible, introduce your DM to the class tier system (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658).

Education is the best medicine.

[A Tad Insane]

Vestiges do not exist on any plane of existance. In fact they literally can't exist, which is why religious folk say they defy the natural order, because they do. This, along with being awesome flavor in what is essential 'Dracula: the campaign setting', is why a binder in Greyhawk can bind a vestige originating from the forgotten realms.
If your dm has a problem with specific vestiges, he can simple say your binder doesn't know them. If he insists that vestiges can fake exist everywhere but Ravenloft , I call shenagins

[Psyren]

I suggest sweetening the pot for your GM - if he feels the class is too powerful (for whatever reason) or that the setting should mess around with pact connection in some way, proactively suggest ways to do that. I would go with something like "even if my character makes a Good Pact, any time I use a power that has a cooldown I run the risk of falling under that vestige's influence for the next minute or two." This can be fluffed as vestiges bound within Ravenloft experiencing unnatural potency or some sort of resonance with the plane.

Throwing in something like this should make running a Binder more fun for your GM and he'll be more likely to say yes.

[Taveena]

Maybe difficulty expelling vestiges would make sense? What with Ravenloft's rules for Summons.

[elonin]

Are binders summoners? I'm familiar with the class by name but ravenloft plays by some different rules as far as effects that summons can't leave and dimension side steps (dimension door and teleport) don't work.

[illyahr]

+1 to: just doesn't like Binders.

A block is placed between one place and another. Vestiges exist nowhere, so they can't be blocked. They might act differently while in Ravenloft, but they can't be stopped from entering.

[Red Fel]

Are binders summoners? I'm familiar with the class by name but ravenloft plays by some different rules as far as effects that summons can't leave and dimension side steps (dimension door and teleport) don't work.

Not exactly. Binders basically form pacts with beings that are not supposed to exist, entities that are everywhere and nowhere because the cosmos cannot quantify them. These entities aren't so much "summoned" as they are "influencing;" that is, they influence the Binder, who gains a fraction of their power.

But as others have said, if the DM is concocting bogus excuses to exclude Binders, he wants to exclude Binders. Challenging that is a losing fight.

[Coidzor]

Are binders summoners? I'm familiar with the class by name but ravenloft plays by some different rules as far as effects that summons can't leave and dimension side steps (dimension door and teleport) don't work.

If they bind the Zceryll(?) vestige from the web enhancement they're pretty great summoners what with being able to spam summons every 5 rounds for all kinds of utility.

And they're weird pseudonatural critter versions of the things they summon, too.

Which would just make summoning them in ravenloft even wiggier. Or the sort of thing that'd be labeled the last act of a desperate adventurer.

[ekarney]

Being cut off from whatever "the void" is should only affect a binder if he plans for floating through nothing for the rest of his life. So I'd advise explaining to your DM that you don't plan on floating through nothing for eternity and see if that helps.

In fact, it's actually optimal to be far away from any sort of void when playing a binder since it's implied you need a surface to draw on in order to bind vestiges.

That combined with the fact that if they're located anywhere a vestige stops being a vestige because they start existing. Since vestiges are either gods/demons who stopped existing due to being completely forgotten about or mortals who went places they never should have gone with entities they never should have met (Zceryll) and as such were totally erased from history, which means if they occupy any sort of physical, metaphysical or theoretic space they return to history, meaning they stop being vestiges.

Isn't there a Tippyverse theory going around that because of the powerful wizards erasing all these people from history Binders have incredible power because they have so many more vestiges?

[battlemindjase]

I worked out a compromise with the DM. I'd rather play the character with a few drawbacks while in Ravenloft than not play it at all. Binder is my favorite class in 3.5 and I'm going to play it, despite what he says. Also planning on abusing Use Magic Device just in case.

:D

[Chronos]

Cool, compromise is good. What did you agree on?

[Coidzor]

Cool, compromise is good. What did you agree on?

Indeed, I'm curious to know what drawbacks he thought were necessary.

[Venger]

Hey everyone,

So I am going to be playing in a 3.5 Ravenloft game. I would like to play a Binder but my DM is advising against it because he says Ravenloft exists in another dimension and is cut off, even from the Void, so I wouldn't be able to bind any Vestiges while we are there. I have never played Ravenloft so I have no idea.

I know Ravenloft was published before Tome of Magic, so there really can't be a RAW ruling on Binders specifically. Anyone that has played it want to give their 2 cents? I would love to hear some other opinions

as the thread's said so far, this is complete nonsense.

binders are t3 at best. as has been mentioned, link your dm to the tier list and the binder handbook.

when the topic is "my dm won't allow (subsystem)" and it's not tob, the issue isn't always that the gm has an irrational dislike of it, it's more likely that he's just too lazy to bother learning the rules.

if you show him what binder does, he'll have no valid reason to ban it. if he persists... that's already a red flag.

you have two clerics who are not nerfed at all because of course you do. I bet he thinks all clerics do is heal, and they're certainly not the most powerful class in the game.

your dm probably thinks that the later in the run a subsystem is because power creep. this is erroneous.


Yeah, your DM is full of crap and just looking for an excuse to ban Binders. If I had to guess, I'd say he's looking to make ability damage/drain stick more and sees Naberius as a potential thorn in his side.

I've actually been playing a Binder in a PBP Ravenloft game for a little over a year now. The character has been an absolute blast and fits into the setting really well.

I have been running this ravenloft game for a little over a year. WhamBamSam is right, binder is a great fit thematically and mechanically. you can deal adroitly with a lot of the undead monsters and find interesting ways of dealing with other problems in the module as well.


I worked out a compromise with the DM. I'd rather play the character with a few drawbacks while in Ravenloft than not play it at all. Binder is my favorite class in 3.5 and I'm going to play it, despite what he says. Also planning on abusing Use Magic Device just in case.

:D
cleric: you're fine. hell, let's have two clerics
binder: I need to nerf this class.

wow.

good luck and have fun in ravenloft.

[A Tad Insane]

Cool, compromise is good. What did you agree on?

I want to know, too

[atemu1234]

as the thread's said so far, this is complete nonsense.

binders are t3 at best. as has been mentioned, link your dm to the tier list and the binder handbook.

when the topic is "my dm won't allow (subsystem)" and it's not tob, the issue isn't always that the gm has an irrational dislike of it, it's more likely that he's just too lazy to bother learning the rules.

if you show him what binder does, he'll have no valid reason to ban it. if he persists... that's already a red flag.

you have two clerics who are not nerfed at all because of course you do. I bet he thinks all clerics do is heal, and they're certainly not the most powerful class in the game.

your dm probably thinks that the later in the run a subsystem is because power creep. this is erroneous.



I have been running this ravenloft game for a little over a year. WhamBamSam is right, binder is a great fit thematically and mechanically. you can deal adroitly with a lot of the undead monsters and find interesting ways of dealing with other problems in the module as well.


cleric: you're fine. hell, let's have two clerics
binder: I need to nerf this class.

wow.

good luck and have fun in ravenloft.

Actually, that's usually true with TOB as well. Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

Also, fun in Ravenloft. Heh.

Also, I'll bite- what drawbacks?

[Crake]

Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

I feel this quoteworthy, if I may?

[atemu1234]

I feel this quoteworthy, if I may?

Of course, my friend.

[Crake]

Of course, my friend.

Coolios, thanks

[Blackhawk748]

Binders are almost tailor made fluff wise for Ravenloft, so i dont see why your DM has an issue, unless he just doesnt get Binder Fluff.

Also i want to know what the compromise is too.

[Venger]

Actually, that's usually true with TOB as well. Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

Also, fun in Ravenloft. Heh.

Also, I'll bite- what drawbacks?

Well, yeah. I didn't mean that dms never ban tob because they're too lazy to read the book, as a subsystem of course that's true. I meant it's the only subsystem where people in threads will regularly reveal their dm won't allow it because "{Scrubbed} I hate anime." incarnum's fluff is also regarded as universally terrible, but it's almost never the primary reason a dm bans it.

I bet OP has to make some kind of caster level check or not bind his vestiges or something. "for balance."

[Debihuman]

The Powers That Be in Ravenloft take the place of deities and vestiges in Ravenloft, if you are playing it straight. Clerics and the like lose their connection to their deities but still receive spells and such. It's more to get the feel of how cut off the demiplane is from the rest of the cosmos.

You should actually read up on Ravenloft. Which edition is this? It was licensed to White Wolf for 3rd edition and 3.5. It's one of my favorite settings as I'm a big fan of gothic horror. White Wolf did a nice of job of keeping the flavor from 2nd edition.

Debby

[Coidzor]

I disagree, while the Dark Powers certainly can do a whole lot which means they can definitely futz around with Binding in the Demiplane of Dread, I can't see even them being capable of completely cutting off an area from that which doesn't exist.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think I see the DM's point. In a setting where many actions are the slippery slope into evil, inviting powers of questionable morality to use your soul as a summer home would...Probably not be the world's greatest idea. It'd be a bit like slathering oneself in barbecue sauce before facing a ravenous ghoul. This is a setting where even summoning a holy mount blessed by the gods on one's home world is a very bad idea and curses linger and often backfire.

I think Clerics get around this because the Dark Powers actually fuel their magic, so they don't need a connection to their god. Given the theme of imprisonment within Ravenloft, the DM might be denying it because of it, even from the void of nothingness and nowhere that these vestiges hang out in. Having something pop in, even a vestige might break that theme in a way the DM is not comfortable with or worries about it ruining the tone for others. Could also be a problem that Darklords would be given an out in the form of trying to become a vestige. Overall a bad idea, but some might be desperate enough to do it.

[atemu1234]

Guys, guys: The DM is missing a cool opportunity. HAVE THE GUY SUMMON DARK POWERS' VICTIMS. Refluff, replace, and work from there. Heck, maybe even the Dark Powers themselves.

[A Tad Insane]

Snip

A binder without vestiges is worse than a cleric without spells. Furthermore, most vestige's manifestations are rather high on the 'spoopy' spectrum. How far would a binder go to bind a vestige to get them through the day? How far would they go to silence any witnesses? Even without saying the dark ones get to hijack a power that literally no other entity can (because it physically doesn't exist), binders are loaded with way more moral dilemmas than your average cleric.


Re: Torrasque (because I don't want to spam)

But binders don't summon! (Unless it's a vestige with summoning, e.g. zzycelldjhqhd) Vestiges are "beings that cannot exist inhabit(ing) a place that cannot exist". Their manifestations are just illusions that represent them, and can't be interacted with beyond making a pact.

[torrasque666]

Remember though that few things can escape the demiplane of Dread, summoned creatures don't even get to leave. They get stuck once the duration ends (and are free to take action against the one who brought them there). Divination spells that rely on contacting a different plane (like Commune) get screwed over. So it stands to reason that bringing even a portion of the vestige into Ravenloft would then leave it stuck there, possibly drawing the entirety of the entity (try saying that five times fast) into Ravenloft over time.


Long story short, Ravenloft doesn't play well with things that involve any sort of summoning, which Binders technically do before they can make their pacts.

[Honest Tiefling]

A binder without vestiges is worse than a cleric without spells. Furthermore, most vestige's manifestations are rather high on the 'spoopy' spectrum. How far would a binder go to bind a vestige to get them through the day? How far would they go to silence any witnesses? Even without saying the dark ones get to hijack a power that literally no other entity can (because it physically doesn't exist), binders are loaded with way more moral dilemmas than your average cleric.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fluff of the Binder (never had the opportunity to play one, however). And while the reason you provide is thematic, it also seems like a one-way ticket to Darklordom. Having a single player be in a situation to be more likely to be splatted or turned into an NPC might be something for most DMs to avoid. I think the DM should have communicated more about the why of things, but I can see why from a tonal perspective the Binder either doesn't fit, or fits in too well. In that it defies imprisonment that the plane basically operates by, or the player might become a Darklord themselves. Some people would love to play with that dilemma, others might not want the weakness of it.


Guys, guys: The DM is missing a cool opportunity. HAVE THE GUY SUMMON DARK POWERS' VICTIMS. Refluff, replace, and work from there. Heck, maybe even the Dark Powers themselves.

Admittedly, I think this is a very cool option. I would personally worry that channelling the Dark Powers might seem a bit railroady (they aren't powers that really take no for an answer...) but might avoid a lot of issues if the player was okay with it and a mechanical way for the bad pacts to fulfill the schemes of the Dark Powers could be devised.

[Coidzor]

Guys, guys: The DM is missing a cool opportunity. HAVE THE GUY SUMMON DARK POWERS' VICTIMS. Refluff, replace, and work from there.

The Dark Powers' Victims are former adventurers who got grabbed by the mists because the Dark Powers are jerks and the Dark Lords themselves. Also the current party.

Dark Lord themed binding would be a bit wiggy, and a fair amount of work. But potentially interesting. Maybe.


Heck, maybe even the Dark Powers themselves.

wat


Remember though that few things can escape the demiplane of Dread, summoned creatures don't even get to leave. They get stuck once the duration ends (and are free to take action against the one who brought them there). Divination spells that rely on contacting a different plane (like Commune) get screwed over. So it stands to reason that bringing even a portion of the vestige into Ravenloft would then leave it stuck there, possibly drawing the entirety of the entity (try saying that five times fast) into Ravenloft over time.

What? No. it doesn't.


I think I see the DM's point. In a setting where many actions are the slippery slope into evil,

I'm pretty sure the point of Ravenloft is that the universe hates the party, except for when it's using the party to torment a Darklord, which the universe hates worse than the party, not that the actions themselves are the slippery slope into evil so much as the universe will actually retroactively change itself for maximum suffering as the result of any action, any time where this seems to be to the contrary is merely an investment in order to get a larger payoff of suffering down the road.


inviting powers of questionable morality to use your soul as a summer home would...Probably not be the world's greatest idea.

You do realize that the only time morality enters into it is if you make a bad pact and are compelled to act in a way that is not the most ethical, right?


It'd be a bit like slathering oneself in barbecue sauce before facing a ravenous ghoul.

So now Binders are tanking the Dark Powers? :smallamused:


Could also be a problem that Darklords would be given an out in the form of trying to become a vestige. Overall a bad idea, but some might be desperate enough to do it.

You can't intentionally become a Vestige, and no Darklord would attempt to do so unless the DM wanted it, so this thought is empty of meaning.

[torrasque666]

What? No. it doesn't. No, it kinda does. Everything that gets brought into Ravenloft gets stuck there (with a few exceptions explicitly called out, like the Vistani). And given that a Binder does have to summon their vestiges before they can make their pact, you then have the question of what happens when the vestige's pact expires? Or if the Binder decides not to bind them after all and doesn't complete the pact? The vestige was still summoned into a plane where almost nothing escapes.

Alternatively, tell me how it doesn't rather than just saying "no". Because otherwise I can just say "yes" right back. And then its just childish.

[WhamBamSam]

No, it kinda does. Everything that gets brought into Ravenloft gets stuck there (with a few exceptions explicitly called out, like the Vistani). And given that a Binder does have to summon their vestiges before they can make their pact, you then have the question of what happens when the vestige's pact expires? Or if the Binder decides not to bind them after all and doesn't complete the pact? The vestige was still summoned into a plane where almost nothing escapes.

Alternatively, tell me how it doesn't rather than just saying "no". Because otherwise I can just say "yes" right back. And then its just childish.Because a vestige is, in many respects less than nothing and the void isn't a place that can be cut off from/otherwise interact weirdly with Ravenloft, so much as it is just "nowhere." Binding a vestige isn't really "summoning" in the usual sense. The thing that appears in the binding circle isn't really appearing there but rather "looking in."

[Tzardok]

A few months back I asked Afroakuma how nonstandard ways of doing magic would change in Ravenloft. He gave me his answer here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII&p=24151522#post24151522) but I'm going to quote the part on vestiges for your convenience:



• What is given to a vestige may be more than was intended, and will be harder to get back. Checks to resist a vestige's influence or conceal signs are more difficult, and these elements may become exaggerated or twisted in new ways by the plane. Sense of self may be imperiled. The Vistani are familiar with pact magic and avoid its practice, with those who engage with vestiges known as laugotte if they can resist the signs and influences, or folto if they cannot. Some Vistani possess the skills to help a folto, but such a service is entirely at their discretion and associated with two personal costs - the one required to sever the pact, and the one imposed to teach fools not to toy with dangerous forces.


I hope I was able to help. :smallsmile:

[Ventruenox]

Mödley Crüe: The Dark Powers of Ravenloft may not revive threads here.