Rune Magic

[Azreal]

Anyone who's seen the Rune Magic Prestige class what do you think of it?

Also as a double whammy, does anyone have any ideas of Master Runes to create of their own?

[Sigreid]

There's a pretty long thread running on this, but I'll bite. I would prefer that they handled prestige classes as boons that are earned instead of a separate class. Part of that is that I kind of resented how you had to target your desired prestige class at level 1 and build for it in 3.x, and part of it is that while the abilities were cool, none of them were cool enough to derail your character for it. No a cool bonus you could earn to separate yourself from all the other x class people out there, nice!

[Maxilian]

There's a pretty long thread running on this, but I'll bite. I would prefer that they handled prestige classes as boons that are earned instead of a separate class. Part of that is that I kind of resented how you had to target your desired prestige class at level 1 and build for it in 3.x, and part of it is that while the abilities were cool, none of them were cool enough to derail your character for it. No a cool bonus you could earn to separate yourself from all the other x class people out there, nice!

I think he wanted to talk more about the class per se, not what we think of Prestige class (cause as you said... there's a thread for that)

O.T: I like it and i have a plan for a Fighter with the Earth Rune: Crushing Brand (mainly cause the rune gives:

bludgeoning damage dealt by the weapon ignores resistance and immunity.

If you roll the maximum on the weapon’s damage die or dice, the target of your attack is knocked prone if it is a creature.

So i will make a Fighter using the GWF Fighting style, the Savage feat and the GWM feat to make it more likely to active the effect as much as i can, not sure about the archetype yet (i think this could go well in a Eldritch Knight cause it can be combined with the Green Flame cantrip for some extra damage or Champion to make the most of the GWM feat), not sure about the race yet, i'm going to use the Greatclub as my main weapon (1d8), cause its easier to get max damage on the dice that way then... eventually take the Sentinel feat, so i have more attacks to take advantage of the effect (also the GWF style applies on every hit and the Savage feat is one per turn, so it can be used again in the OA), and the sentinel feat will let me hit someone, throw them prone and their speed will be 0 so they won't be able to move that turn

[TopCheese]

I think he wanted to talk more about the class per se, not what we think of Prestige class (cause as you said... there's a thread for that)

O.T: I like it and i have a plan for a Fighter with the Earth Rune: Crushing Brand (mainly cause the rune gives:

bludgeoning damage dealt by the weapon ignores resistance and immunity.

If you roll the maximum on the weapon’s damage die or dice, the target of your attack is knocked prone if it is a creature.

So i will make a Fighter using the GWF Fighting style, the Savage feat and the GWM feat to make it more likely to active the effect as much as i can, not sure about the archetype yet (i think this could go well in a Eldritch Knight cause it can be combined with the Green Flame cantrip for some extra damage or Champion to make the most of the GWM feat), not sure about the race yet, i'm going to use the Greatclub as my main weapon (1d8), cause its easier to get max damage on the dice that way

See, the Fighter class should grow like this organically and not need another class (such as a prestige class) to allow them to be this awesome.

Rune Magic looks interesting and if they are going to implement PrCs this way then I like what it gives me. Sadly I think that this prc is too good to not go after. If PrCs are allowed then why wouldn't you go for one (such as rune magic) instead of going on with a class that has stopped growing?

I just hope PrCs don't become a band aid or step on subclasses toes too much.

[Maxilian]

See, the Fighter class should grow like this organically and not need another class (such as a prestige class) to allow them to be this awesome.

Rune Magic looks interesting and if they are going to implement PrCs this way then I like what it gives me. Sadly I think that this prc is too good to not go after. If PrCs are allowed then why wouldn't you go for one (such as rune magic) instead of going on with a class that has stopped growing?

I just hope PrCs don't become a band aid or step on subclasses toes too much.

I don't think this is really a problem, i mean... is not really an awesome buff (not the best buff in damage but is pretty fun), i have been using Fighters a lot lately (making WIS and CHAR based character without multiclassing is possible and fun), it depends a lot on the player, i really like how it was made cause... this PrC doesn't give nothing big to X or Y class in specific, this is just another way of MC for me (just with a lvl restriction, it doesn't bother me at all)

Note: the same question could be said about Multiclassing? i mean... most of the abilities that this PrC give you are not as strong as a camtrip (the simple runes -maybe a little stronger but still not a big deal-) and the extra things that are given are not OP either, they are just good (in general), really nice to make THAT character concept that you want (you can only take 1 lvl, it won't hurt you much and you will get a couple of nice things to play with -Its basically, 1 lvl for 1 rare magic item)

[TopCheese]

I don't think this is really a problem, i mean... is not really an awesome buff (not the best buff in damage but is pretty fun), i have been using Fighters a lot lately (making WIS and CHAR based character without multiclassing is possible and fun), it depends a lot on the player, i really like how it was made cause... this PrC doesn't give nothing big to X or Y class in specific, this is just another way of MC for me (just with a lvl restriction, it doesn't bother me at all)

Note: the same question could be said about Multiclassing? i mean... most of the abilities that this PrC give you are not as strong as a camtrip (the simple runes -maybe a little stronger but still not a big deal-) and the extra things that are given are not OP either, they are just good (in general), really nice to make THAT character concept that you want (you can only take 1 lvl, it won't hurt you much and you will get a couple of nice things to play with -Its basically, 1 lvl for 1 rare magic item)

I'm not a fan of the current multiclassing system either. Prestige classes adding to this type of issue is another animal all together.

If Rune Magic is a good example with how other PrCs are made, I could see multiclassing not being worth it and players will always go for PrCs.

[Maxilian]

I'm not a fan of the current multiclassing system either. Prestige classes adding to this type of issue is another animal all together.

If Rune Magic is a good example with how other PrCs are made, I could see multiclassing not being worth it and players will always go for PrCs.

I love MC and i like this PrC (Could be better but meehh), but still i see no reason why this would make MC useless, IMO this will solve the more than 2 class MC problem (you lose way too much), the PrC will bring more 2 Class + PrC characters, cause... look at it in this way... most of the PrC stuff don't stack with any class abilities, while is easier to find things to stack (or combine) with MC

[TopCheese]

I love MC and i like this PrC (Could be better but meehh), but still i see no reason why this would make MC useless, IMO this will solve the more than 2 class MC problem (you lose way too much), the PrC will bring more 2 Class + PrC characters, cause... look at it in this way... most of the PrC stuff don't stack with any class abilities, while is easier to find things to stack (or combine) with MC

Multiclassing via feats is a pretty simple and effective way of making multiclassing both worth it without taking away from your core class.

PrC feats would be fantastic too. Easier to design and balance too.

The current MC/PrC system just begs to be exploited.

[Azreal]

I think he wanted to talk more about the class per se, not what we think of Prestige class (cause as you said... there's a thread for that)


Yeah this is what I wanted, not another rehash debate about prestige classes in general.

[Maxilian]

After thinking a little bit more about it, i found 2 good options with a fighter to take advantage of the Earth Rune: Crushing Brand:

-Fighter Champion (as stated above) Human variant to get all the needed feats as fast as possible
(5 or 6 lvl Fight, 1 lvl scrib)

Another good options is

-Fighter Battlemaster: (5 Fight, 1 Scrib)
Human Variant
Feats:
Savage attacker
Sentinel
Tavern Brawler

I really like this one for a tank build, The low damage of the Tavern Brawler makes it easier to get a Max roll to throw my enemy prone, the ability to grapple on a bonus action is really good (even more when your enemy is prone), the sentinel feat is mainly for control (and it gives you more attacks that can be made out of your turn, so... you can use Savage attacker once again) and whenever you throw someone prone with your reaction they won't be able to stand (even when your enemies do get to stand, they will lose half of their speed, that will make the Wizard and Ranger in your party happy), the Battlemaster archetype to take advantage of your Maneuvers, mainly:

*Precision attack: these build use way too many feats, so this will affect your hit chance, its not normally needed but... when you find yourself fighting that boss, you will be happy you have this

*Maneuvering Attack: There's always that moment when you need your allies to get closer to you, this is for those moments (If you ever tried to tank here, you know this feeling)

*Distracting attack: Advantage for the next attack for your teammates? is nice, even more if you have a rogue in your party

*Disarming strike: Really good when cordinated with someone else.

*Menancing Strike: Is good, even more for a tank, the problem is that you won't be taking many ASI's so it will fall behind with a low DC

[Blood of Gaea]

I see it as a good 1 or 2 level dip.

[Yorrin]

I briefly mentioned this over in the other thread, but Earth Rune + Air Rune on a sling is pretty hilarious. Double max range, ignores resistance, 25% knockdown, potentially some +1s if you've got the spell slots for it. I'd definitely pick those two first as a Rune Master specifically for that interaction.

[Maxilian]

I briefly mentioned this over in the other thread, but Earth Rune + Air Rune on a sling is pretty hilarious. Double max range, ignores resistance, 25% knockdown, potentially some +1s if you've got the spell slots for it. I'd definitely pick those two first as a Rune Master specifically for that interaction.

I think you would need more than 2 lvls for that (as far as i understand, at lvl 2 you can take 1 of the simple effects of any other rune you don't have)

Complex Properties:

Complex properties are usable only by a character who attunes to a master rune and who
possesses the Rune Lore class feature.
Unless otherwise noted, you must have a master rune on your person in order to use its properties.


You need to posses another master rune for that

Note: You would ignore not only resitance but also immunities!

[Maxilian]

I see it as a good 1 or 2 level dip.

True, depending what you get after lvl 5 it could be worthy (the ability to move your stats around every short rest is really good)

[Yorrin]

I think you would need more than 2 lvls for that (as far as i understand, at lvl 2 you can take 1 of the simple effects of any other rune you don't have)

You need to posses another master rune for that

The Runic Discovery feature overrides this (second paragraph, last sentence.)

[Sigreid]

I think he wanted to talk more about the class per se, not what we think of Prestige class (cause as you said... there's a thread for that)



My comment still stands. I think these abilities are great boons, but not great class abilities.

[Maxilian]

The Runic Discovery feature overrides this (second paragraph, last sentence.)

You're right, this make the class more powerful cause you're getting a bunch of stuff everytime you get 1 lvl (it mostly give you a lot of versatility right now, it may become more interesting if we get a bigger runes options), but right now, i don't think there's a real reason to take more than 2 lvls

[AgentPaper]

Something specific I wanted to bring up in regards to the earth rune:

As currently written in order to get the knockdown effect on a maul, you need to roll a 6 on both dice, rather than just one. This gives you a ~2.7% chance of knocking someone down normally, or a ~5% chance if you have the great weapon fighting style. Compare this to attacking with a light hammer, which gives you a flat 25% chance to knock someone down.

However, if you rule that a maul can knock someone down if either die rolls a 6, then instead the mail has a normal ~30% chance to knock someone over, and a ~40% chance with great weapon fighting style.

I don't think it's really OP to let the stone rune maul guy be really good at knocking people down, though it might be a good idea to give larger creatures a Str save to resist it.

[8wGremlin]

Shrieking Bolt (Complex Property) from the Pennant of the Vind Rune is interesting on the 6th level Radar Barbarian character.


Damage a target up to a mile away... not great, but interesting.


Shrieking Bolt (Complex Property). As an action, you scribe this rune in the air between you and a creature you can see while you expend a spell slot. The creature must make a Strength saving throw (DC 12 + the spell slot’s level). On a failure, it takes 2d8 bludgeoning damage plus 1d8 bludgeoning damage per level of the expended spell slot, and is pushed in a straight line directly away from you for 10 feet per level of the expended spell slot. On a successful saving throw, the creature takes half as much damage and is not pushed away from you.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15153.200

[Yorrin]

Shrieking Bolt (Complex Property) from the Pennant of the Vind Rune is interesting on the 6th level Radar Barbarian character.


Damage a target up to a mile away... not great, but interesting.


Shrieking Bolt (Complex Property). As an action, you scribe this rune in the air between you and a creature you can see while you expend a spell slot. The creature must make a Strength saving throw (DC 12 + the spell slot’s level). On a failure, it takes 2d8 bludgeoning damage plus 1d8 bludgeoning damage per level of the expended spell slot, and is pushed in a straight line directly away from you for 10 feet per level of the expended spell slot. On a successful saving throw, the creature takes half as much damage and is not pushed away from you.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15153.200

I keep thinking there's got to be something overpowered that can be done with that, but I can't figure out any real way to buff it up or otherwise abuse it.

[Maxilian]

Something specific I wanted to bring up in regards to the earth rune:

As currently written in order to get the knockdown effect on a maul, you need to roll a 6 on both dice, rather than just one. This gives you a ~2.7% chance of knocking someone down normally, or a ~5% chance if you have the great weapon fighting style. Compare this to attacking with a light hammer, which gives you a flat 25% chance to knock someone down.

However, if you rule that a maul can knock someone down if either die rolls a 6, then instead the mail has a normal ~30% chance to knock someone over, and a ~40% chance with great weapon fighting style.

I don't think it's really OP to let the stone rune maul guy be really good at knocking people down, though it might be a good idea to give larger creatures a Str save to resist it.

The Maul does need to roll 6 in both dices, that's why i like this, cause that gives people a reason to use other thing that's not a Maul (damage wise, that's what you're going to take), but i think this ability is mainly to make low dice weapons more useful

[Maxilian]

I keep thinking there's got to be something overpowered that can be done with that, but I can't figure out any real way to buff it up or otherwise abuse it.

I think the idea to hit someone from one mile with a wind current, its really good...

Also... i have brainstormed a lot lately with this UA, but... no, you can't really abuse anything, but they are pretty neat.

Note: Well... you can use the Scrying spell to look for someone and just kill them from your own home

[CNagy]

Anyone who's seen the Rune Magic Prestige class what do you think of it?

Also as a double whammy, does anyone have any ideas of Master Runes to create of their own?

The more I look at it, the more I think that the rune system is in concept what the 4 Elements Monk should be rocking.

[Ardantis]

As a first Prestige Class, this sets the bar for other Prestige Classes. Here's what I like:

1) "Find a rune" is a great story hook. Prestige Classes (as opposed to MC) are all about the journey, and the Rune Scribe hook is generic enough to fit in many different campaigns as well as being mechanically relevant to the class. It also differentiates Rune Scribe from subclasses, which are for more "common" archetypes of characters. Rune Scribes represent secret lore, as should all Prestige Classes in one way or another.

2) Any class can gain benefit from Rune Scribe. As mentioned, fighters and other weapon wielders can earn solid bonuses from Earth and Air runes, plus the class advances spell slots which is good for casters. Also the attribute buffing can flexibly add to any stat. Granted, not all Prestige Classes will be this accessible, but as a first go this is great.

3) Fighters *should* have to PrC out to feel that awesome. That's what makes the hidden lore of the Rune Scribe so powerful. It is less generic that the fighter subclasses because it represents sequestered, special knowledge and technique which can make a fighter with Earth runes into a resistance-ignoring knockdown machine, fueled by the power of forgotten language. That's what I like so much about the new approach to subclasses vs. Prestige Classes- now we have a distinction between common archetypes and unique orders. It's way better than 3rd edition, where every single different character type was a prestige class (which led to cluttering and overlap), and its better than 2nd, where even very powerful suites of abilities were represented by shallow kits (which consisted of shallow mechanics).

[Maxilian]

As a first Prestige Class, this sets the bar for other Prestige Classes. Here's what I like:

1) "Find a rune" is a great story hook. Prestige Classes (as opposed to MC) are all about the journey, and the Rune Scribe hook is generic enough to fit in many different campaigns as well as being mechanically relevant to the class. It also differentiates Rune Scribe from subclasses, which are for more "common" archetypes of characters. Rune Scribes represent secret lore, as should all Prestige Classes in one way or another.

2) Any class can gain benefit from Rune Scribe. As mentioned, fighters and other weapon wielders can earn solid bonuses from Earth and Air runes, plus the class advances spell slots which is good for casters. Also the attribute buffing can flexibly add to any stat. Granted, not all Prestige Classes will be this accessible, but as a first go this is great.

3) Fighters *should* have to PrC out to feel that awesome. That's what makes the hidden lore of the Rune Scribe so powerful. It is less generic that the fighter subclasses because it represents sequestered, special knowledge and technique which can make a fighter with Earth runes into a resistance-ignoring knockdown machine, fueled by the power of forgotten language. That's what I like so much about the new approach to subclasses vs. Prestige Classes- now we have a distinction between common archetypes and unique orders. It's way better than 3rd edition, where every single different character type was a prestige class (which led to cluttering and overlap), and its better than 2nd, where even very powerful suites of abilities were represented by shallow kits (which consisted of shallow mechanics).

I totally agree, IMO melee PCs can take advantage of the Fire rune too (make your weapon fire damage and you will be able to reroll all the damages you do! not OP but its quite good)

[Azreal]

I'm definitely a fan of Rune Scribe to supplement other classes and give them a more unique flavor as well.

[Maxilian]

I'm definitely a fan of Rune Scribe to supplement other classes and give them a more unique flavor as well.

Yeah, i hope to see a full version of the Rune Scribe soon! :smallbiggrin: