Vengeance Paladin. Shield VS Two Hander.

[Snig]

Almost every vengeance paladin build I look at has them using a greatsword / maul with the GWF + GWM, or Polearm + Sentinel. I know vengeance paladins mesh well with these weapons and are one of the top classes for burst potential, but how much synergy and potential am I losing out on by taking a Longsword + Shield, with Shield master + Dueling?

I'm seriously considering this route, but if its subpar compared to a 2h, then i'll reconsider.

[bid]

You lose the Sentinel OA to stop (one) enemy from passing through. That's the biggest deal.

Other than that, you already have a damage dial with smite and shield + defense style can stops half the damage. That extra 15% damage from -5/+10 is nice but not necessary.

[Snig]

You lose the Sentinel OA to stop (one) enemy from passing through. That's the biggest deal.

Other than that, you already have a damage dial with smite and shield + defense style can stops half the damage. That extra 15% damage from -5/+10 is nice but not necessary.

I was actually planning on keeping sentinel along with shield master.

[Pex]

I took shield for the AC and heavy armor master to shave off a few damage. To compensate with offense I took dueling style for the damage. I don't care if it's not the most damage possible. I just need it to be good enough, which it is. Smites are there when needed and spells give added support. Not being the most absolute optimal isn't necessary as along as you're good enough. Nothing wrong with being most absolute optimal, but you don't have to resent not being that when what you have is good enough. Don't worry about which is "best". Do what's fun for you.

[djreynolds]

Almost every vengeance paladin build I look at has them using a greatsword / maul with the GWF + GWM, or Polearm + Sentinel. I know vengeance paladins mesh well with these weapons and are one of the top classes for burst potential, but how much synergy and potential am I losing out on by taking a Longsword + Shield, with Shield master + Dueling?

I'm seriously considering this route, but if its subpar compared to a 2h, then i'll reconsider.

Will you multi-class? If no. Dexterity based sword and board is fantastic, you just can't multi-class. You damage is coming from smiting. Sure GWF + GWM are cool, but two-weapon fighting allows extra AC with the feat and a bonus attack that could smite.

What are your rolls? SPBI is very limiting. You got 5 feats, and who cares about 19th level. Anyone can fight with two short swords? But you need charisma for your saves, and for your con saves are big. You can spend a feat for resilient con, but can have 20 in charisma. How many feat do you have?

There is a thread going around about range options of the paladin as well. Lots to think about.

For me who is manning the front lines with you? A fighter or barbarian or monk?

[Mrglee]

It is subpar(less damage by far, for a small amount of tankiness). I also feel it is less thematic, as assuming this is for Frank, I picture someone obsessed with vengeance and a desire to punish evil wielding something like a great axe or some other large weapon made for crushing those with wicked hearts. The shield seems more like a tool for defense and protecting others is all.
EDIT: Duel Wielding is also an option, still subpar, but a dex focused Paladin is playable, and able to get more smites out early. I would argue it is better with Oathbreaker though.

[Lollerabe]

Just had my first session yesterday as my newly rerolled paladin - lvl 5 OOD.

S&B is AMAZING the bonus action prone/shove attempt every round is insane. Not only do you boost ur non ranged allies DPR a ton - you add crowd control with a class that usually has non.

At yesterdays session I even think i dealt more damage than our polearm barb and rogue/ranger, granted I won't continue to do so, but by all means go SB it's fun and truely effective.

I think it fits frank perfectly, he can't allow people to die on his watch and him being able to move/prone units fits that. Besides with the higher AC you can jump in front of your squishies and not worry to much about the AOO you trigger. I did that 2-3 yesterday, which seemed very paladin like in my opinion :)

So yeah do it!

Edit: Oh yeah party composition plays a big role as well. If you have a totembarb that's dying to go wolf, by all means go for GWs as he'll ensure you do crazy DPR. Is you team filled with ranged attacks? That might make prone less hot etc. Otherwise above summary still stands

[Snig]

Party comp is a Frenzy Barb, Cleric ( light or life), Sorcerer, and the last is undecided.

[Lollerabe]

Well stick to S&B with shieldmaster then, if your life cleric goes hill dwarf he can grab a warhammer - thus being fairly usefull in melee when you give him advantage. Regardless he can frontline.

Not sure if you guys have houseruled frenzy barb, if not I would strongly suggest advicing your barb not to go that route. Not that it's any of my business though.

But yeah party looks fine for a SB, so by all means do it. You might encounter some annoyance with hunters mark and shieldmaster bonus action economy - but besides that you'll be great.

[Captain Panda]

If you want a shield, go for it. I actually think people on forums often overemphasize raw damage and act as though defense and AC don't matter as much. Remember that bounded accuracy means that every point of AC is precious, and that a dead/unconscious character deals no damage. Shields are awesome. :smallsmile:

[TheOOB]

Shield with dueling style is very powerful, and dueling style may be the strongest melee fighting style available. +2(more with magic shields) AC is huge and before feats the damage different between dueling and great weapon fighting isn't huge.

It depends on what you're trying to do for your party. Many Vegance-a-dins go two handed to maximize the alpha strike damage, but a 1h and shield build will still likely do the highest single target damage in the party, but be stronger at fighting groups of foes. Depends on what you want/need.

[Firechanter]

Yah. SnB in general is really not bad in 5E; Shield Master aside it's up to +5AC in the long run that GWFers are prolly never gonna get. (Also note that +3 Shields are only "Very Rare", not "Legendary" as the other +3 gear.) Granted, theoretically there are Animated Shields, but it's not guaranteed that you can get one -- or in case of our group, the DM made it clear that there would simply be no Anim. Shields in his games.

However, OoV is probably the _one_ Paladin archetype that does not work so well with SnB. The point about Vengeance is that you can get Advantage vs one opponent per Short Rest. Sure, Advantage is never bad, but Dueling will never benefit from it nearly as much as GWF, where the synergy between Advantage and GWM (Power Attack) is the cat's pajamas.

If you want to be a Paladin and go S&B, that's great, but you'd get much more mileage out of OoD or OotA than OoV. Personally, I'd take OotA.

[Lollerabe]

Im assuming that Snig is playing his frank castle concept, so OOV is set in stone.

However Chanter is right, out of all the oaths, OOV is properly the one that gains the least from going the SB route.

I think the oaths goes something like this, fighting style and feat wise:

OOD: SB or GW - great at both, depends on flavor or party composition.

OOTA: SB or Polearms - Nothing to undermine SB abilities, and one could argue that OOTA channel has synergy with polearms

OOV: GW or polearms - Basically a tossup, advantage works nicely with GWM, however the lvl 7 feature has a great synergy with polearms if you build around a mobile/positioning based paladin.

The reason that OOV SB is a less optimal route is action economy and overlapping features.

Hunters mark will likely be your bread and butter early, and it's a bonus action to cast/recast thus interfering with your shieldmaster bonus. Advantage isn't something you have a hard time gaining(and again the OOV channel is a bonusaction). Do note however that you can always use your shove to actually just shove them, so it's not like the two can't work together at all.

At the end of the day you have nothing to be worried about, these are all minor min/max things and I doubt you will regret going SB.

If I were you I would however look into a lvl 3 figther dip after you've got 6/7 lvls of paladin.

It will give you another fight style (defense most likely) acces to action surge - which seems like something Frank would do on a BBEG, and either improved crit from champion (which is huge seeing as how often you attack with advantage) or some cool combat maneuvers. Just a thought :)

Edit: The possibility of falling from grace and going oathbreaker into fiendlock is also there :) Frank could end up becoming evil or make a pact with a fiend in his desperate attempt to purge the world of evil. Could be a fun plot twist

[Citan]

Im assuming that Snig is playing his frank castle concept, so OOV is set in stone.

However Chanter is right, out of all the oaths, OOV is properly the one that gains the least from going the SB route.

Hi! Full post just above.
Kept this part to react on it: while damage-wise you're right, I think that S&B can still be of great benefit for OoV, especially because it's focused on one target. While there is conflict on bonus action because Shield Master ability is good, I'd say the real benefit is else: the increased defense against attacks and some spells means that you can go much further into enemy lines than other Paladins, which is great when your prey keeps falling back behind its comrades. So it seems coherent with the basic concept to me. :)

@OP, I agree on Lollerabe's suggestion of going Fighter 3: not mandatory by far (since it pushes away ASI and lvl3 spells), but it could be still nice. For example, you could get BM 3 to get Evasive Footwork (further increase your defense as you move), Trip Attack (prevent your prey from running away in the first place) and Riposte (so you can kill it even faster ^^). If you are usually using spell slots to smite or you are not interested in lvl 3 spells, this can be a reasonable alternative to going straight Pally 9 (I'd personnally go straight 11 though, for the flat additional damage).

[Lollerabe]

Im not sure I follow Citan. All the things you mentioned is something any paladin can do with sb and shieldmaster.

What me and chanter are saying, is that it has less synergy with OOV than any other oath.

When you say:

"the increased defense against attacks and some spells means that you can go much further into enemy lines than other Paladins"

Other paladins means gwm or polearm paladins I assume? In which case it has nothing to do with the actual oath said paladin took.

Im not looking to start a argument just to start one, just wanted to point out that Chanters point still stands:

OOV is the least suitable candidate for SB + Shieldmaster.

That however, as I said earlier dosen't mean it isn't valid, its just less valid from a min/max perspective, than other oaths.

So yeah it work's and you are not nerfing yourself beyond reason in any shape or form :)

Have fun with the char and do chime in after a few sessions, and give us a update on how Frank is doing. Both from a fluff and crunch perspective :)

[Citan]

Im not sure I follow Citan. All the things you mentioned is something any paladin can do with sb and shieldmaster.

What me and chanter are saying, is that it has less synergy with OOV than any other oath.

When you say:

"the increased defense against attacks and some spells means that you can go much further into enemy lines than other Paladins"

Other paladins means gwm or polearm paladins I assume? In which case it has nothing to do with the actual oath said paladin took.

I must have not expressed myself clearly enough :), but you understood right in the fact that I was comparing S&B with other weapon builds in the context of Oath of Vengeance.

Sure it's less good damage-wise, but what I meant is that you can just be significantly more reckless in pursuing your target, because your much better armor and evasion means you are less susceptible to be gang-banged by a group of enemies, should you be surrounded (well, obviously, the best tactic is to stay careful, but well, **** happens).
You are also much less susceptible to most direct damage spells since they target Dex saving throws.
And, consequently, since you have less chance of getting hit, you have better chance of maintaining your Hunter's Mark throughout the fight and much better chance to single-handedly manage the BBEG.

Whereas Polemaster combo requires a very specific build with 2 or 3 feats to be fully potential, and the "basic" GWM combo trades defense and chance to hit (even if advantage makes up for it in general) for damage.

Even the Shield Master bonus action can come in handy, once you spent your CD on one creature, or if you have several melee allies around.

That's why I think that it's pretty viable, even if it's not the obvious choice for a Vengeance. :)