Lycanthropy Racial Hit Die

[PraxisVetli]

Can someone explain to me how this works?
I was under the impression that players had to pay the RHD off in levels, but now I'm reading the template and I'm just baffled.
If a player is say, a second level warblade werewolf, what do their levels look like? How do skill points (mainly the x4 at first level) work? Where does the LA play in?
I thought I understood but maybe I don't.
Break it down for me?

[Cerefel]

As far as determining the character's ECL, just ignore the extra HD and focus on the class levels and the LA

[Andezzar]

As far as determining the character's ECL, just ignore the extra HD and focus on the class levels and the LAThat is wrong. RHD are part of the ECL. Just think of them as levels in the class "werewolf".

A werewolf warblade 2 has ECL 6 or 7 if he is a natural werewolf. 2 warblade levels + 2 RHD +2 or 3 Level adjustment.

From then on he is treated as any other level 6 character. Yes being a werewolf sucks.

[DrMotives]

The 4x skills at level 1 have nothing to being a werewolf, as the werewolf's RHD can't be the character's 1st HD. Class level first, that gets the 4x. Otherwise, the template add RHD in the form of multiclassing into animal, with the number of RHD determined by the animal type. These levels will suck, but they give 2 skill points + int per level, and determine total character level for feats and ability increases. The part that can be bought off isn't those, but the LA from the template. Remember, it says they're RHD, but they really work like picking up a terrible PrC for as many levels as the animal has HD.

[Milo v3]

Racial Hit Dice are basically levels your character has in their creature type. So, they'd have the 2 warblade levels, and then the 2 animal Hit Dice that wolves get. Given them an effective character level of 6 (if afflicted) and 7 (if natural) but only 4 character levels, 2d12 HD + 2d8 HD when it comes to health, skill points are ([4+int*4] for first level + [4+int] + [2+int]+[2+int] + [2+int]), you should have 2 feats for selection + bonus feats of (Iron Will, Track, Weapon Focus (bite), and your saves from class levels should be Fort +6, Ref +3, Will, +0.

You can't buy off RHD without shenanigans, it's not LA, they are basically actual levels.

[DrMotives]

(Iron Will, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)


Well, 2 of those. All lycanthropes get Iron Will as a bonus, and the wolf levels gives track as a bonus feat, but weapon focus (bite) isn't a bonus. It's just the default feat choice for wolves & werewolves.

[Milo v3]

Well, 2 of those. All lycanthropes get Iron Will as a bonus, and the wolf levels gives track as a bonus feat, but weapon focus (bite) isn't a bonus. It's just the default feat choice for wolves & werewolves.

I was sure lycanthropes got all of their animals feat's as bonus feats, regardless of whether or not they are bonus feats for the animal itself.

[Andezzar]

Milo v3 is right.
Add the base animal’s feats to the base creature’s. If this results in a lycanthrope having the same feat twice, the lycanthrope gains no additional benefit unless the feat normally can be taken more once, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the lycanthrope more feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any "extra" feats are denoted as bonus feats.

[DrMotives]

Nah. The sample werewolf has weapon focus bite, but only the other 2 have the little B superscript marking them as bonus feats. So any werewolf (or normal wolf) could be built to replace that with some other feat choice.

[torrasque666]

Nah. The sample werewolf has weapon focus bite, but only the other 2 have the little B superscript marking them as bonus feats. So any werewolf (or normal wolf) could be built to replace that with some other feat choice.
Aye, but unless the DM specifically tells you that the wolf that started the curse gives you a different feat from the normal feat line up, that is the feat you get. Without knowing if a DM has changed the wolf's(or any monster's) statblock, all we have to work with is the default feats.

[PraxisVetli]

I'm so confused.
It sounds a lot like (relatively, obviously theres LA) free hit points and minor save/skill bonuses.
Why does everyone say it sucks?

[Milo v3]

I'm so confused.
It sounds a lot like (relatively, obviously theres LA) free hit points and minor save/skill bonuses.
Why does everyone say it sucks?

It's not free hitpoints or save/skill bonuses. You count as a level 6 or 7 character when it comes to how much XP you get and what foes your GM sends against you, but you only have 2 class levels while your other party members have 6 or 7.

According to the game, your character is now meant to be even in battle against creatures like huge elementals, flesh golems, aboleth, wyverns and xills.

[PraxisVetli]

It's not free hitpoints or save/skill bonuses. You count as a level 6 or 7 character when it comes to how much XP you get and what foes your GM sends against you, but you only have 2 class levels while your other party members have 6 or 7.

So the compensation isn't in leveling HD, it's in the xp!
I actually never thought of that. So while the rest of the group is getting level appropriate xp, you're stuck counting as however many levels higher getting minimal xp, which is heightened by the LA. THATS why Lycanthropy blows.
Right?
Am I finally getting this?

[Milo v3]

So the compensation isn't in leveling HD, it's in the xp!
I actually never thought of that. So while the rest of the group is getting level appropriate xp, you're stuck counting as however many levels higher getting minimal xp, which is heightened by the LA. THATS why Lycanthropy blows.
Right?
Am I finally getting this?

Your group will also now be attacked by stronger creatures than they should be facing because according to the game you're a lot more powerful than them (even though you aren't really that much more powerful).

[PraxisVetli]

Your group will also now be attacked by stronger creatures than they should be facing because according to the game you're a lot more powerful than them (even though you aren't really that much more powerful).

So then is it better to pick up Lycanthropy early mid or late game?
I feel like mid to late game the few CR/ECL won't matter as much as lower levels.
A ECL 12 seems like they would do better against an ECL 14 than a ECL 1 vs an ECL 3.
Or does it not matter much.
Also.
How can it not be your first HD?
What about natural Lycanthropes? Aren't they a Lycanthrope before they're a chosen class, seeing as how they're born that way?

[Milo v3]

So then is it better to pick up Lycanthropy early mid or late game?
It's never good to pick it up, unless you have a decent level'd necromancer who can give negative levels.


I feel like mid to late game the few CR/ECL won't matter as much as lower levels.
They can easily slaughter you. I mean, your group might be level 2's, and they have to fight CR 6 creatures.


A ECL 12 seems like they would do better against an ECL 14 than a ECL 1 vs an ECL 3.
Except it wouldn't be ECL 12 vs. ECL 14. The gap between your class level and ECL is +4 or +5.


How can it not be your first HD?
Because you need your class level first (which gives your first HD), and then you add on the template.


What about natural Lycanthropes? Aren't they a Lycanthrope before they're a chosen class, seeing as how they're born that way?
Doesn't matter, they'd probably be born with their class, or as a commoner which is then latter retrained into their starting class.

[Thurbane]

I'd strongly recommend recommend reading Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) - it is a really good source on understanding how monstrous characters, RHD and LA work.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's really not that hard to understand when you break it down a little. Lets take the Warblade 2 werewolf as an example.
You're a Warblade 2. Assuming you have no LA your ECL is also 2. Now you contract Lycanthropy.
You get the HD of the animal. Wolves have 2 HD, so you get 2 animal HD. You are now a Warblade 2/Animal 2.
Lycanthropes get LA. Your Warblade wasn't born a werewolf, so he's afflicted. That means he gets 2 LA.
You are now a Warblade 2/Animal 2. Your ECL is 6, meaning you will face challenges as a 6th level character.

The problem with that, aside from the LA, is that animal HD are pretty bad. They don't give you class features or advance any, and their HD, saves and skill points aren't all that impressive. The stat boosts and abilities you gain don't really make up for that.

So you're already weaker than someone with just 4 levels of Warblade would be, but you also get 2 LA on top of that.
And since stronger animals like tigers and bears get more animal HD they're even weaker, because a big part of their levels is taken up by animal HD that don't really add much to your power but count fully for ECL.

[JyP]

I am late to this thread, but there are savage progression rules on wizard's archive site which breakdown this lycanthropy in 4 levels you gradually take - and you are not forced to take animal levels, taking only the 2 infected lycanthrope levels. I find this very useful.

[Troacctid]

If you want things to get really weird, try being something like a were-raven. You'd end up with ¼ of an animal hit die on top of your class levels.

[Bronk]

So then is it better to pick up Lycanthropy early mid or late game?
I feel like mid to late game the few CR/ECL won't matter as much as lower levels.
A ECL 12 seems like they would do better against an ECL 14 than a ECL 1 vs an ECL 3.
Or does it not matter much.


I agree... If you become an afflicted lycanthrope early in the game, it's more disruptive to the game, leveling and so on, but you might have time to buy off the LA. On the other hand, later on it might not be as disruptive, but it becomes harder or impossible to buy off the LA before epic levels.

Either way, without deleveling tricks to lose your RHD, you'd be losing out on your full BAB (and initiator levels in your case) if you're a fighty type, so by level twenty you'd lose out on your last attack, or caster levels if you're a magicky type (same problem with the savage progression).



How can it not be your first HD?
What about natural Lycanthropes? Aren't they a Lycanthrope before they're a chosen class, seeing as how they're born that way?

You're right, if you're a natural lycanthrope your first levels are animal levels, just as the monster appears in the monster manual. You get slightly better abilities this way (like a better DR) and, as long as you have the permission from your DM to start at a higher level, and you weren't planning on trying any tricks to get rid of those racial HD anyway, it's probably the better way to go.

If you were planning on using tricks to get ahead, you'd be a bit out of luck though, because you'd never be able to lose your first level (which would be one of the racial levels) without dying.

[Chronos]

When you first contract lycanthropy, it's a decent-sized power boost. It's just that you're then stuck at that power level until you've paid for all of that power, and how much you pay is a lot more than what it's worth.

[PraxisVetli]

Thank you all.
I've read Urpriest's Monstrous Guide, I should've known to check there.
I think it was the cact of it not being the first HD that threw me off.
Also, the ECL thing confused me.
But thanks to all of you, now I can stop spouting nonsense to my player, explain to him how this all works, and let them choose.
Thanks again!


Uncle say 'one more thing.'
Does anyone perhaps have a link to the wizards archive JyP mentioned?

[Andezzar]

Here (https://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fsp%2F20040117a) you go. Get it while it's still there.

[Flickerdart]

I am late to this thread, but there are savage progression rules on wizard's archive site which breakdown this lycanthropy in 4 levels you gradually take - and you are not forced to take animal levels, taking only the 2 infected lycanthrope levels. I find this very useful.
It's not that useful, since you lose most of the benefits of being a lycanthrope:

"Taking levels in the appropriate animal template class gives the character the animal's Hit Dice and hit points (in all forms), saving throw bonuses (in all forms), skill points (in all forms), racial skill bonuses (in all forms), conditional skill modifiers (in animal form), ability score modifiers (in hybrid or animal form), natural armor bonus, and special attacks (such as the wolf's trip)."

A lycanthrope without animal HD blew two levels on DR 5, +2 Wisdom, 3 crappy feats, and cosmetic forms.

[JyP]

It's not that useful, since you lose most of the benefits of being a lycanthrope:

"Taking levels in the appropriate animal template class gives the character the animal's Hit Dice and hit points (in all forms), saving throw bonuses (in all forms), skill points (in all forms), racial skill bonuses (in all forms), conditional skill modifiers (in animal form), ability score modifiers (in hybrid or animal form), natural armor bonus, and special attacks (such as the wolf's trip)."

A lycanthrope without animal HD blew two levels on DR 5, +2 Wisdom, 3 crappy feats, and cosmetic forms.
we are talking about infected lycanthrope : your wizard which got bitten can suck with 4 lost levels, or 2 levels instead. Adventurers being bitten willingly to make great builds are not so frequents - at least I hope :smallwink:

In my last campaign, where a PC was bitten by a wererat, at least savage progression did not disrupt all as it only blocked his progression during 2 levels, where he progressed on lycanthrope only. Afterwards he went the warshaper way directly...

[Thurbane]

There's also the Quasi-Lycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) template (LA +1, no RHD), but for an pretty limited version of Disguise Self, and DR 10/silver, it's just not worth it.

There's also one for turning into vermin, but I can never find the link...

[Milo v3]

There's also one for turning into vermin, but I can never find the link...

Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a). WHITETEXT

[Dread_Head]

There's also the Quasi-Lycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) template (LA +1, no RHD), but for an pretty limited version of Disguise Self, and DR 10/silver, it's just not worth it.

I've played as a Quasilycanthrope Shifter Druid in a lowish level (4-5) campaign and it worked pretty well, not much was penetrating the DR so he was pretty survivable. With LA buyoff I'd say it's a reasonable choice.

If you play a Quasilycanthropic Shifter into (pre-errata) Weretouched Master you get basically everything a lycanthrope of your choice would have but on a much better chassis.

[Flickerdart]

we are talking about infected lycanthrope : your wizard which got bitten can suck with 4 lost levels, or 2 levels instead.
If you're not actually interested in being a lycanthrope, you don't even need to take two levels:
a) The rules for template classes (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) state: "Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession." You can take 1 level and then bug out.
b) The template class description literally says "A character who chooses to keep his lycanthropic curse can progress in the werewolf template class to gain werewolf abilities." So if you choose not to keep it, you take no levels whatsoever.

[Chronos]

I think that "choosing not to keep one's lycanthropic curse" means getting a Remove Curse spell etc., as described in the template entry. I don't think that the existence of the template class is meant as a get-out-of-lycanthropy-free card.

[Flickerdart]

I think that "choosing not to keep one's lycanthropic curse" means getting a Remove Curse spell etc., as described in the template entry. I don't think that the existence of the template class is meant as a get-out-of-lycanthropy-free card.
Even if you elect to follow that interpretation, nothing about the class overrides the general template class rules provided in the first, linked Savage Progressions article.

[Rebel7284]

Lycanthropy can allow for some ridiculous builds due to effectively allowing you to enter prestige classes early.

See this thread by me: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?401453-Using-Lyconthropy-for-early-entry

[Dusk Eclipse]

There's also the Quasi-Lycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) template (LA +1, no RHD), but for an pretty limited version of Disguise Self, and DR 10/silver, it's just not worth it.

There's also one for turning into vermin, but I can never find the link...

Quasilycanthrope is a decent way to sneak into Warshaper though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem with that, aside from the LA, is that animal HD are pretty bad. They don't give you class features or advance any, and their HD, saves and skill points aren't all that impressive. The stat boosts and abilities you gain don't really make up for that.
Eh, a 2-level dip in a PrC that gave you +2 Wis, 2 NA, DR 5-10/silver, scent, bonus feats and an alternate form with three natural weapons and a net +10 to ability scores? With a d8 HD, medium BAB, and two good saves? That's not bad in the slightest. It's the LA that hurts werewolves more then the animal HD.

[Milo v3]

I thought that you couldn't dip savage progressions and you had to take the whole thing?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I thought that you couldn't dip savage progressions and you had to take the whole thing?

The monstrous classes you need to take it full. Savage progressions run by different rules.

[Ger. Bessa]

Since Urpriest has been mentioned (well,his guide, but I'm talking about the prc) as well as de-levelling with negative energy, I remind everybody that werewolf (afflicted) is not only a template but also a disease that can be cured.

So it's a way to get racial hit dices. And higher max skill ranks.

So is it legal to play a human monk 1 (take the 2 prerequisites for ur priest)/werewolf (2hd+2la) /monk 2->Ur priest 2 then cure that disease with one way or the other ? (remove curse/Nosomatic surgeon levels)

The end result would be a monk 3/Ur priest 2 at ecl 5. Qualifies by its 8 ranks in his skills, and 2 feats taken at lv1.
(Then lv4 spells at ecl7, lv9 spells at lv12 and prc options).

Cheesy ? Sure. RAW Legal ? That's my question.

[atemu1234]

Quasilycanthrope is a decent way to sneak into Warshaper though.

Ooooohhhh. I like.