Same Class, Different Archetype

[McNinja]

If a PC wanted to "multiclass" into a different archetype, how would this work? Say if a Divination wizard then decides they want to also be a necromancer. How would that work out? I know there's a Sage Advice tweet about it - it's definitely not intended since the rules for multiclassing in the PHB are meant for delving into different classes altogether, but I'm curious as to how this could work.

[Strill]

I don't see any need, nor any way for it to work out. The Diviner can just cast Necromancy spells like anyone else if they want to be involved in necromancy. They don't need extra perks.

Giving them the Necromancer perks would be unfair because those 2nd-level school perks are intentionally powerful. Giving up two levels of progression on your current school is nothing compared to the kinds of school perks you could cherry-pick.

[JackPhoenix]

Multiclass is designed only for different classes:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/23/can-i-multiclass-into-same-class/

[KorvinStarmast]

If a PC wanted to "multiclass" into a different archetype, how would this work? Say if a Divination wizard then decides they want to also be a necromancer. How would that work out? I know there's a Sage Advice tweet about it - it's definitely not intended since the rules for multiclassing in the PHB are meant for delving into different classes altogether, but I'm curious as to how this could work. The DM would ask the Munchkin who wants to do this where the Wicked Witch of the East got her shoes. I suggest looking once again at the archetype decision point in the PHB. See also the link provided by JackPhoenix.

[DivisibleByZero]

If a player wants two subclasses for the same class, the two easiest ways I see to do it would be:
1) Retrofit that subclass onto a different class chassis. Then they'd multiclass for real, but with a homebrewed/retrofitted subclass for the second class.
2) Substitute ASIs for subclass features. Then they'd basically take the subclass features instead of an ASI or a Feat.

[McNinja]

Personally, I'd let someone take on another archetype after level 20, since that's when everything ends anyways, why not just let them start a new archetype/class? Assuming no one dies, I'm going to have my players go up to 35th level, so we'll see what happens.

[McNinja]

If a player wants two subclasses for the same class, the two easiest ways I see to do it would be:
1) Retrofit that subclass onto a different class chassis. Then they'd multiclass for real, but with a homebrewed/retrofitted subclass for the second class.
2) Substitute ASIs for subclass features. Then they'd basically take the subclass features instead of an ASI or a Feat.
I like the second idea. It could still be quite powerful regardless of how they end up taking it, but #2 is an excellent idea.

[Daishain]

Probably the easiest way to handle it without forcing dead levels or other such weirdness is to let the character pick among the subclass features available at the appropriate levels.

Bear in mind, this can and will lead to a power increase. The option should be offered to other players in the group, and you should consider tweaking the difficulty.

[DivisibleByZero]

I like the second idea. It could still be quite powerful regardless of how they end up taking it, but #2 is an excellent idea.

That's actualy exactly what I do for a few subclasses already.
I've made some tweaks to some of the classes, and that was one of them.
In our game, Battlemaster Fighters can forgo their first ASI to gain the Champion subclass, thereby becoming a Battle Champion.
Assassin Rogues can do the same for Thief, thereby becoming Thief Assassins.
Both EKs and ATs also gain access to a third school of their choosing with which they can learn spells, in addition to the two listed.

On a related note, at our table the Beastmaster subclass has been rolled into the Ranger base class, but it has been changed somewhat. All Rangers are Hunters, and all have access to the Beastmaster abilities as well. Rangers now must cast Animal Friendship to gain a companion (the HD of the companion depends on the level of the spell used to summon it), at which point they can use the BM abilities. If the beast companion dies, it must be summoned again via another spell slot.

[steeldragons]

What I am thinking I would do in this situation (though I do rather like the substitute in the option from the other archetype in an ASI slot. That's really quite good.)...

Anywho, I figured it would not really be problematic to simply let/make the new archetype pick up wherever they leave off.

That is, as someone rightly said, if a diviner wants to "be a necromancer", then start focusing on/using necromancer spells. That part's a given/no brainer on the player's part. If they aren't doing that and just want the necro "powers", not that any of my players woudl do that, but if someone did try it, it would get shot down entirely.

Presuming that powergaming is not the case/motive, what are the implcation (if any) of letting/making/having the player take the secondary archetype abilities in the slots of the original archetype?

All subclasses within a class gain a set number of "extra features" from their subclasses at a set series of levels. If you have been a diviner and gained their 2nd level trait and their (what is it? 6th (?) level feature and then, for whatever reasons changes into a necromancer (searching for more power against a serious undead threat or "Vecna is rising we must prepare to fight back!" or whatever it happens to be)...

...then what is the harm in having them have to wait and take their NEXT feature (10th level for a wizard subclass) in the FIRST feature of the second subclass?

They do not "break" the game by having more subclass features than anyone else of their class...and their character will never achieve the full array of powers of one subclass or the other...a "full Diviner" and a "full Necromancer" will both be more divinery/necromish [tm], respectively, than the split character. But they can take the 2nd level ability at 10th and the 6th level feature at 14th...as any wizard subclass normally can.

As the OP has stated, he is taking these particular characters to 35th level (so I imagine you have ideas in place of where to continue granting/gaining feature?). So, conceivably the PC can extend his reach into the Necro tricks.

But for a "typical" table [if such a thing can be said to exist in D&D] that is just going up to 20th, would this approach really cause any issues?

I personally would also make sure the players know they can do this ONCE within a character. But that's just me.

[Garimeth]

That's actualy exactly what I do for a few subclasses already.
I've made some tweaks to some of the classes, and that was one of them.
In our game, Battlemaster Fighters can forgo their first ASI to gain the Champion subclass, thereby becoming a Battle Champion.
Assassin Rogues can do the same for Thief, thereby becoming Thief Assassins.
Both EKs and ATs also gain access to a third school of their choosing with which they can learn spells, in addition to the two listed.

On a related note, at our table the Beastmaster subclass has been rolled into the Ranger base class, but it has been changed somewhat. All Rangers are Hunters, and all have access to the Beastmaster abilities as well. Rangers now must cast Animal Friendship to gain a companion (the HD of the companion depends on the level of the spell used to summon it), at which point they can use the BM abilities. If the beast companion dies, it must be summoned again via another spell slot.

How do you find the balance? I am thinking about doing the same thing with fighter and ranger when I run 5e, and would be curious to know your experiences.

[Mr.Moron]

Maybe not exactly as archetype, but "Paladin of Two Oaths" or "Dual Study Wizard" seem like broadly viable concepts. I think you'd have to dive solidly into the realm of home brew to pull it off though, the archetypes probably aren't easily stapled together.

[DivisibleByZero]

How do you find the balance? I am thinking about doing the same thing with fighter and ranger when I run 5e, and would be curious to know your experiences.

I honestly don't think it impacts balance much at all.

Consider for the fighter:
At lvl3, BMfighter gets his manuevers and now crits on 19. It impacts, sure, but not much.
At lvl7, their abilities are mostly fluff anyway, with hardly any impact at all.
At lvl10, all they get is an extra +1 damage per maneuver used and a 2nd style. Not all that impactful.
At lvl15, when init is rolled, if they have no SupDice, then they get one. And they crit on 18 now. That's pretty big, but let's face it, most games don't go that long, and if you do go that far then by the time you get there it really isn't game breaking.
Consider for the rogue:
At lvl3, assassinate and fast hands are both great, but assassinate isn't a given and takes some setup, so it's situational. People on boards love to comment on hoe great it is, but I find it much less reliable than they'd have you believe.
At lvl9, you become even better with a skill that you're probably amazing at already (so who really cares?), and you get great out of combat, (probably) long term disguises. It's cool, but it's nothing that you couldn't pull off with decent rolls anyway, so it's basically just fluff.
At lvl13, I find the same is true for assassins yet again, where the perk is really nothing that you couldn't already pull off with good rolls, so really all you get is UMD (which is admittedly awesome).
At lvl17, you get two turns during round one. This usually has basically zero impact, because on your first turn you got sneak attack/assassinate off already and so this basically just means you can put out the damage that you could have at level 3 with no setup needed.
On EKs and ATs:
Because both of those classes have caster type subclasses, those two subclasses each got a third school of their choice to learn spells from to balance the fact that their counterpart subclasses each got stronger. This had the added effect of allowing for more customization and differentiation between EKs and ATs (so that they all weren't the same anymore).
I also allow ATs to sneak attack with any Wizard cantrip that has a ranged attack roll, but if they want to apply sneak attack to the roll then it is always cast as if they were a 1st level caster (it doesn't scale). So they have to choose, do they want to cast it as normal with scaling, or as a 1st level caster without it scaling and apply sneak attack? It adds flavor without adding power.
Wizard only to preempt potential Eldritch Blast shenanigans (with multiple attack rolls), and ranged only to preempt potential shocking grasp shenanigans (with prohibiting reactions).
For ranger:
I'll just copy/paste from my houserules text:

- Ranger -
–- The Beast Master Archetype is being rolled into the Ranger base class. The Ranger's "companion" for the day would be the target of a modified Animal Friendship spell, called Summon Animal Companion (the companion is hereby referred to as the Ranger's Beast Friend), which would need to be renewed each day, and the BM features only apply if the Ranger has a Beast Friend.
–- The Summon Animal Companion spell is only available to Rangers, and all Rangers learn this spell automatically. A Ranger can only have one companion at a time. When first cast, or when a companion needs to be replaced, the DM tells you which beasts are in the area for you to befriend at the time, so he has some control over which beasts are available, to keep abuse to a minimum. Basically, companions need DM approval.
–- The CR of a Ranger's Beast Friend is set by the spell level used to befriend the companion beast.
---- 1st level slot = companion max CR 1/8 or lower
---- 2nd level slot = CR 1/4 or lower
---- 3rd = CR 1/2 or lower
---- 4th = CR 1 or lower
----- 5th = CR 2 or lower
*note: This means that All Rangers are both Hunters and Beast Masters, but the Beast Master abilities are only usable if the Ranger sacrifices one (or more, if the beast dies) spell slots each day to gain a Beast Friend.
These changes have been working just fine as far as our table is concerned.
Incidentally, I have made slight changes to some of the other classes as well, but these are the only ones that have multiple subclass options straightaway.

I originally granted the Open Hand to Monks in exchange for their first ASI because I felt that too many of their abilities were so base to the class that they should have been a part of the base class to begin with. But in that case I found that it actually did have an impact on balance, so I removed that tweak and it is now standalone just as it is in the PHB.

[steeldragons]

OR, extending the thought I had earlier, allowing the player the choice between their subclasses...but still only on their normal feature gain levels.

Ex.: You're a Diviner. You get the 2nd level feature (cuz that's what makes you a diviner in the first place). At 5th level, you want to "switch"/refocus your studies into Necromancy [for whatever in story reasons]. Fine. At 6th level, you can pick up the 6th level diviner trick or the 2nd level necro trick. Let's say they take the 2nd level Necro trick. Ok. So you are a 6th level mage with Portent and Grim Harvest and [since it's really just a ribbon thing/who cares] 1/2 price and time on Divination and Necromancy spells.

When you come to 10th level, you can now decide if you want the 6th level Diviner feature or the 6th level Necro feature. Let's say, you want the undead thralls, so you go with Undead Thralls.

And so on.

[Garimeth]

I honestly don't think it impacts balance much at all.

Consider for the fighter:
At lvl3, BMfighter gets his manuevers and now crits on 19. It impacts, sure, but not much.
At lvl7, their abilities are mostly fluff anyway, with hardly any impact at all.
At lvl10, all they get is an extra +1 damage per maneuver used and a 2nd style. Not all that impactful.
At lvl15, when init is rolled, if they have no SupDice, then they get one. And they crit on 18 now. That's pretty big, but let's face it, most games don't go that long, and if you do go that far then by the time you get there it really isn't game breaking.
Consider for the rogue:
At lvl3, assassinate and fast hands are both great, but assassinate isn't a given and takes some setup, so it's situational. People on boards love to comment on hoe great it is, but I find it much less reliable than they'd have you believe.
At lvl9, you become even better with a skill that you're probably amazing at already (so who really cares?), and you get great out of combat, (probably) long term disguises. It's cool, but it's nothing that you couldn't pull off with decent rolls anyway, so it's basically just fluff.
At lvl13, I find the same is true for assassins yet again, where the perk is really nothing that you couldn't already pull off with good rolls, so really all you get is UMD (which is admittedly awesome).
At lvl17, you get two turns during round one. This usually has basically zero impact, because on your first turn you got sneak attack/assassinate off already and so this basically just means you can put out the damage that you could have at level 3 with no setup needed.
On EKs and ATs:
Because both of those classes have caster type subclasses, those two subclasses each got a third school of their choice to learn spells from to balance the fact that their counterpart subclasses each got stronger. This had the added effect of allowing for more customization and differentiation between EKs and ATs (so that they all weren't the same anymore).
I also allow ATs to sneak attack with any Wizard cantrip that has a ranged attack roll, but if they want to apply sneak attack to the roll then it is always cast as if they were a 1st level caster (it doesn't scale). So they have to choose, do they want to cast it as normal with scaling, or as a 1st level caster without it scaling and apply sneak attack? It adds flavor without adding power.
Wizard only to preempt potential Eldritch Blast shenanigans (with multiple attack rolls), and ranged only to preempt potential shocking grasp shenanigans (with prohibiting reactions).
For ranger:
I'll just copy/paste from my houserules text:

- Ranger -
–- The Beast Master Archetype is being rolled into the Ranger base class. The Ranger's "companion" for the day would be the target of a modified Animal Friendship spell, called Summon Animal Companion (the companion is hereby referred to as the Ranger's Beast Friend), which would need to be renewed each day, and the BM features only apply if the Ranger has a Beast Friend.
–- The Summon Animal Companion spell is only available to Rangers, and all Rangers learn this spell automatically. A Ranger can only have one companion at a time. When first cast, or when a companion needs to be replaced, the DM tells you which beasts are in the area for you to befriend at the time, so he has some control over which beasts are available, to keep abuse to a minimum. Basically, companions need DM approval.
–- The CR of a Ranger's Beast Friend is set by the spell level used to befriend the companion beast.
---- 1st level slot = companion max CR 1/8 or lower
---- 2nd level slot = CR 1/4 or lower
---- 3rd = CR 1/2 or lower
---- 4th = CR 1 or lower
----- 5th = CR 2 or lower
*note: This means that All Rangers are both Hunters and Beast Masters, but the Beast Master abilities are only usable if the Ranger sacrifices one (or more, if the beast dies) spell slots each day to gain a Beast Friend.
These changes have been working just fine as far as our table is concerned.
Incidentally, I have made slight changes to some of the other classes as well, but these are the only ones that have multiple subclass options straightaway.

I originally granted the Open Hand to Monks in exchange for their first ASI because I felt that too many of their abilities were so base to the class that they should have been a part of the base class to begin with. But in that case I found that it actually did have an impact on balance, so I removed that tweak and it is now standalone just as it is in the PHB.

Thanks!

#10char

[Human Paragon 3]

I would let them retraoctively change their subclass. If a diviner wants to become a necromancer, he needs to give up his diviner features.

[Anlashok]

I'm a little confused by the hostile responses at the top of the thread. OP states pretty clearly that he knows it's not intended or designed and just looking for advice on how things might work.

Frankly the idea of a dual specialist wizard or an assassin who wants to be sneaky instead of a master of disguise seem like perfectly valid concepts, certainly not something to mock and ridicule.

[JackPhoenix]

Subclass abilities should be (actual results may vary) balanced against each other at the same level, but not necessarily between the levels. As was already said, level 2 arcane tradition features are more powerful then level 6/10 features. Trading the same level features shouldn't be too problematic, though it undermines the reasons to have different subclasses in the first place.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I can see this working better for some classes than others.

Could a cleric take a second domain? Maybe, if both domains are in the portfolio of his deity. But if he's trying to follow two different deities, nothing good will come of it.

What about Warlocks? I doubt that serving two patrons is possible. Would any patron grant two pact boons? I see lot of potential OP/abuse down that path. Seriously, pick any two of Blade, Chain, and Tome, then see what happens.

[L Space]

Could a cleric take a second domain? Maybe, if both domains are in the portfolio of his deity. But if he's trying to follow two different deities, nothing good will come of it.


Haven't you ever heard of the Cleric Exchange Program? It promotes the sharing of history, culture, and traditions of the participants' home pantheon. :smallwink:

In all seriousness I could potentially see it if the other deity was within the same pantheon and the gods weren't overtly antagonist towards each other. I know in Ancient Greece it wasn't unheard of for priests to pray to different/multiple gods depending on the subject of the prayer.

[numerek]

Subclass abilities should be (actual results may vary) balanced against each other at the same level, but not necessarily between the levels. As was already said, level 2 arcane tradition features are more powerful then level 6/10 features. Trading the same level features shouldn't be too problematic, though it undermines the reasons to have different subclasses in the first place.

It is actually fairly complicated because I'm sure many barbarian's would like totems 3rd level abilities with the rest of frenzies abilities.

Not all subclasses are frontloaded there are many high level abilities that are powerful.

Option 1:
Probably allows some combinations that are more powerful than currently available

I was thinking along the sames lines as some others have posted.
At each point that subclass features are granted you can choose any subclass to progress in but you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.

This gets complicated with subclass abilities that improve with progression in the class.

In the case of eldritch knight and arcane trickster that would mean that you would not get spell slot progression until you choose that subclass again at the next subclass feature spot.
Arcane ward would not count wizard levels where the closest previous subclass choice was not abjuration.

Option 2:
Also probably allows some combinations that are more powerful than currently available

Make it more like multiclassing where every level you choose what subclass you are progressing in, that would help fine tune eldritch knights and abjuration type things. But then you would be getting archetype features when you shouldn't be so I would say when you get an archetype features out of sync it delays the classes feature, so a cleric could get 7 domain abilities in as many levels but they wouldn't have the 2nd use of channel divinity per short rest, they haven't got their ability score increase and they won't have destroy undead because they got 7 domain features when they should have only 3 by 7th level so their class abilities are delayed 4 levels. And of course they only get the 1st level domain spells because they have only chosen to progress each domain 1 level. Their next level will have to be in one of the domains which will give them another domain ability which matches with cleric's normally getting a domain feature and a class feature so ...

Option 3:
Most likely no real cases of being overpowered, would depend on how duplicate classes features are handled.

Then you come to the extreme where someone is really dedicated to getting the two subclasses feature if this is the option you give them and they take it. You treat it as true multiclassing in which case the person will be getting many duplicate class features that provide no benefit. And for caster's they get spell slot progression but not the access to the spells they should have, example 5th level abjuration wizard / 5th level evocation wizard will only be able to cast 3rd level spells with their 5th level spell slots. I would say that one could make an argument for this being closest to raw and definitely not overpowered.

If you multi barbarian with barbarian can you now rage 4 times per day but you still only get the +2 to damage? Or is it more like extra attack you can rage twice per day or you can rage twice per day take your pick.