Need some help optimizing a TWF Warlord (Path of War)

[ZZTRaider]

I'm getting ready to start a Play by Post over on the Paizo forums as a TWF Warlord. This is my first experience with any of the Path of War stuff, so I'm still figuring things out and would appreciate some help in making some final tweaks before we get started (as well as figure out a general game plan for how to progress my character).

The rest of the part consists of a Monster Tactician Inquisitor (http://paizo.com/people/CaunStratego) looking at reach weapons, a Dervish Defender Warder (http://paizo.com/people/BrittiriLongtread), a Hedgewitch (http://paizo.com/people/Ryzern) from Spheres of Power, and a Battle Host Occultist / Zweihander Sentinel Warder (http://paizo.com/people/DreadguardLienhol) multiclass.

20 Point Buy
LVL 3
Full HP at 1st. Half+1 every level after.
Dwarves, Humans, Half Orcs, Halflings, Gnomes, Tieflings, Aasimar, the elemental races, and Samsarans.
No 9th level casters. Yup, no wizards, witches, clerics and all that. Magic is ubiquitous and powerful but not to that level. Also no Summoners.
No Brawlers, Barbarians, Cavaliers, Gunslingers, Swashbucklers, Slayers, Rogues, Fighters, or Monks. Including Unchained versions.
Sphere’s of Power (except Cleric sphere archetype), Path of War (including the new harbinger and mystic stuff) and Machinesmith allowed. Other 3pp allowed with discretion (though it’s an automatic no on 9th level casters)
We’ll also be utilizing These Feat Tax House Rules (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/) to alleviate many feat taxes and allow for a stronger variety of characters.
Two Traits or Three with a meaningful drawback
Abilities that raise caster level in the case of sphere casters can only raise it up to character level. Never beyond.

Most notably from that list:
Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, and Power Attack are all just default things a character can do when appropriate.
Improved and Greater TWF have been merged into a single scaling feat.

With all of that said, here is my character (http://paizo.com/people/AiseiluraSaravosa). Any feedback is welcome, but I do have some specific questions.

Is there any reason to not take the Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury) prestige class?
If not, when is the best point to switch from Warlord?
How many levels of Dragon Fury should I take?

Both Discipline Focus and Hone Weapon (from the Expanded playtest) seem like really solid damage boosts, since they're adding flat increases to every hit.
How early should I be trying to pick them up? Should I wait until I at least have an iterative?
(As an aside, whetstones normally only work for non-magical weapon. I'd tend to assume Hone Weapon bypasses that restriction, or else it wouldn't be worth a feat at all, but it doesn't explicitly call that out. Does anyone know of any clarifications for this either way?)

Since the party is so melee heavy (and includes an Inquisitor), teamwork feats seem like a pretty decent idea as long as everyone else buys in. Paired Opportunists and Outflank work really well together, but pretty much require Combat Reflexes for that to work out. I've got the Dexterity to make good use of it, but it feels like it really starts to put some pressure on feats early on, especially if I want to take Discipline Focus and Hone Weapon early. Plus, Outflank loses a little bit of its luster because I'll be using my Charisma modifier for flanking bonuses.
Since attacks of opportunity will be a single attack, am I overvaluing these feats?
Should I try to fit Precise Strike in there somewhere, too?
When should I go for each of these?

Since I'll be using kukris and will eventually take Improved Critical, Seize the Moment seems potentially good. I don't know that anyone other than me will end up qualifying for it, though.
Is it worth taking to use with Warleader?
Does this change if I go into Dragon Fury, significantly delaying (or outright preventing) when I can use Warleader as a move action?

Gang Up makes it a lot easier to get flanking, without requiring me to switch over to Golden Commander Stance, losing the extra attack, damage, and initiative bonuses from Battle Dragon's Stance.
Is it worth shifting my point buy a bit so I can start with 13 Intelligence (which I'd probably want to bump to 14 for the extra skill points) for Gang Up to try to ensure flanking?
Does this change depending on how much emphasis I put on the teamwork feats?

From the Expanded playtest, the Thrashing Dragon Style feats look decent.
I've never actually use style feats before; do styles persist outside of combat or will that essentially always be my first swift action?
For that matter, do stances persist outside of combat? Battle Dragon's Stance providing an initiative bonus suggests that they do, but the existence of the Fuse Styles feat suggests that may not be the case.
The second feat, Thrashing Dragon Pounce, seems like the best in the chain, since it would make single attack strikes more useful. Is this a correct assessment, or are there enough ways to get in more than a single attack on a strike that I don't need to worry about it?
Am I correct in thinking that the third feat, Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind, is likely not worth it? It seems that the cases that it might be useful I would be better served by just using Thrashing Dragon Twist or Thrashing Dragon Frenzy, but that does take maneuvers readied slots, so I'm unsure of the opportunity cost.

Martial Charge sounds potentially good, but it also seems to fill a similar niche to Raging Hunter Pounce.
Is it worth it to combine with maneuvers like Thrashing Blades?
Is it worth it earlier than rather high level maneuvers?

Advanced Study seems intriguing.
Do I even want to try to pick it up for more maneuvers known from my in-class disciplines? It seems like I'll still be mostly limited by maneuvers readied.
Since it doesn't say otherwise, I'm assuming that I must still meet prerequisites for maneuvers selected from out-of-class disciplines, which would limit me to fairly low level maneuvers. Are there any that are worth taking a feat to grab?

Extra Readied Maneuver sounds pretty good in theory, as it potentially expands my versatility with maneuvers and gives me more longevity between recovering maneuvers.
Is the extra versatility worth the feat slot?
Will I typically be recovering maneuvers slowly enough to even worry about longevity? I don't have a good sense of how much I'll be recovering through gambits.

I think that covers my outstanding questions... though, looking back, it looks like I'm asking a lot more than I thought I was. So, many thanks to anyone that actually takes the time to answer some or all of them.

[Tuvarkz]

Will be answering in Bold, for what I can.



Is there any reason to not take the Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury) prestige class?
If not, when is the best point to switch from Warlord?
How many levels of Dragon Fury should I take?

Both Discipline Focus and Hone Weapon (from the Expanded playtest) seem like really solid damage boosts, since they're adding flat increases to every hit.
How early should I be trying to pick them up? Should I wait until I at least have an iterative?
(As an aside, whetstones normally only work for non-magical weapon. I'd tend to assume Hone Weapon bypasses that restriction, or else it wouldn't be worth a feat at all, but it doesn't explicitly call that out. Does anyone know of any clarifications for this either way?)

Discipline Focus is more worth it for the boost to Save DCs rather than damage.

Since the party is so melee heavy (and includes an Inquisitor), teamwork feats seem like a pretty decent idea as long as everyone else buys in. Paired Opportunists and Outflank work really well together, but pretty much require Combat Reflexes for that to work out. I've got the Dexterity to make good use of it, but it feels like it really starts to put some pressure on feats early on, especially if I want to take Discipline Focus and Hone Weapon early. Plus, Outflank loses a little bit of its luster because I'll be using my Charisma modifier for flanking bonuses.
Since attacks of opportunity will be a single attack, am I overvaluing these feats?
Should I try to fit Precise Strike in there somewhere, too?
When should I go for each of these?

Yeah, if your party can work together, Teamwork feats will work well

Since I'll be using kukris and will eventually take Improved Critical, Seize the Moment seems potentially good. I don't know that anyone other than me will end up qualifying for it, though.
Is it worth taking to use with Warleader?
Does this change if I go into Dragon Fury, significantly delaying (or outright preventing) when I can use Warleader as a move action?

You should probably use Warleader on the first round when it's a standard, using the move action to reposition. When it becomes a move action, do it in the second round.

Gang Up makes it a lot easier to get flanking, without requiring me to switch over to Golden Commander Stance, losing the extra attack, damage, and initiative bonuses from Battle Dragon's Stance.
Is it worth shifting my point buy a bit so I can start with 13 Intelligence (which I'd probably want to bump to 14 for the extra skill points) for Gang Up to try to ensure flanking?
Does this change depending on how much emphasis I put on the teamwork feats?

From the Expanded playtest, the Thrashing Dragon Style feats look decent.
I've never actually use style feats before; do styles persist outside of combat or will that essentially always be my first swift action?
For that matter, do stances persist outside of combat? Battle Dragon's Stance providing an initiative bonus suggests that they do, but the existence of the Fuse Styles feat suggests that may not be the case.
Stances (As well as tactical presences) do persist out of combat. The main purpose of Fuse Styles is to in the same swift action, to get the Style, and to change from an initiative boosting stance into the stance you'll want to be during combat. Example: An initiator with Black Seraph maneuvers also possesses the Riven Hourglass Stance, which grants him a +4 to initiative. The moment he starts combat, he wants to enter Black Seraph Style, but also switch into Black Seraph's Glare stance for the easy demoralization. Thus, with fuse styles, he enters both at the same time, and follows with a Circle of Razor feathers to simultaneously sicken and intimidate all of the nearby enemies.
The second feat, Thrashing Dragon Pounce, seems like the best in the chain, since it would make single attack strikes more useful. Is this a correct assessment, or are there enough ways to get in more than a single attack on a strike that I don't need to worry about it?
Am I correct in thinking that the third feat, Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind, is likely not worth it? It seems that the cases that it might be useful I would be better served by just using Thrashing Dragon Twist or Thrashing Dragon Frenzy, but that does take maneuvers readied slots, so I'm unsure of the opportunity cost.

Martial Charge sounds potentially good, but it also seems to fill a similar niche to Raging Hunter Pounce.
Is it worth it to combine with maneuvers like Thrashing Blades?
Is it worth it earlier than rather high level maneuvers?

It's more about mobility than pure power, rather. As you said, Raging Hunter Pounce fills the damage burst. It instead serves to land those disabling maneuvers at a greater distance, considering that most charging maneuvers are mainly damage boosts with minor additional effects.

Advanced Study seems intriguing.
Do I even want to try to pick it up for more maneuvers known from my in-class disciplines? It seems like I'll still be mostly limited by maneuvers readied.
Since it doesn't say otherwise, I'm assuming that I must still meet prerequisites for maneuvers selected from out-of-class disciplines, which would limit me to fairly low level maneuvers. Are there any that are worth taking a feat to grab?

Some maneuver levels have more than 2 maneuvers that are worth it, mostly appearing at maneuver levels 4/6/8. Check what you want for your toolkit and grab as necessary. You are better off picking a martial tradition for any nonstandard disciplines you may want to pick

Extra Readied Maneuver sounds pretty good in theory, as it potentially expands my versatility with maneuvers and gives me more longevity between recovering maneuvers.
Is the extra versatility worth the feat slot?
Will I typically be recovering maneuvers slowly enough to even worry about longevity? I don't have a good sense of how much I'll be recovering through gambits.

It's not longetivity but versatility. The Warlord doesn't have a method to quickly change readied maneuvers, unlike a few of his fellow initiators. Get it.

I think that covers my outstanding questions... though, looking back, it looks like I'm asking a lot more than I thought I was. So, many thanks to anyone that actually takes the time to answer some or all of them.

[Elricaltovilla]

Is there any reason to not take the Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury) prestige class?
If not, when is the best point to switch from Warlord?
How many levels of Dragon Fury should I take?

The only reason to not take Dragon Fury levels is because you don't want to. On the other hand, the only reason to take Dragon Fury levels is because you want to take them. Taking levels in Dragon Fury would change your focus a bit from more of a maneuver based focus to a raw damage focus, and you'll lose out on some of the Warlord's teamwork abilities. 5 and 8 look like decent break points if you don't want to take it all the way to 10.


Both Discipline Focus and Hone Weapon (from the Expanded playtest) seem like really solid damage boosts, since they're adding flat increases to every hit.
How early should I be trying to pick them up? Should I wait until I at least have an iterative?
(As an aside, whetstones normally only work for non-magical weapon. I'd tend to assume Hone Weapon bypasses that restriction, or else it wouldn't be worth a feat at all, but it doesn't explicitly call that out. Does anyone know of any clarifications for this either way?)

Neither of them are particularly necessary. TWFing with PoW on the table is very strong on the damage front, you can afford to wait until most of your build is together before taking either one. Worth noting when picking between the two:

Dragon Fury requires Discipline Focus as a Prerequisite
Discipline Focus raises Save DCs for your maneuvers as well as damage
Hone Weapon has a higher total damage bonus
Hone Weapon requires out of combat action and has a time limit on its effects



Since the party is so melee heavy (and includes an Inquisitor), teamwork feats seem like a pretty decent idea as long as everyone else buys in. Paired Opportunists and Outflank work really well together, but pretty much require Combat Reflexes for that to work out. I've got the Dexterity to make good use of it, but it feels like it really starts to put some pressure on feats early on, especially if I want to take Discipline Focus and Hone Weapon early. Plus, Outflank loses a little bit of its luster because I'll be using my Charisma modifier for flanking bonuses.
Since attacks of opportunity will be a single attack, am I overvaluing these feats?
Should I try to fit Precise Strike in there somewhere, too?
When should I go for each of these?

Attacks of Opportunity can be very powerful if you choose to focus on them. For starters they'll be as accurate as your highest Iterative attack.
I'd probably give Precise Strike a pass
Paired Opportunist is a great way to increase your DPR with Attacks of Opportunity


Since I'll be using kukris and will eventually take Improved Critical, Seize the Moment seems potentially good. I don't know that anyone other than me will end up qualifying for it, though.
Is it worth taking to use with Warleader?
Does this change if I go into Dragon Fury, significantly delaying (or outright preventing) when I can use Warleader as a move action?

Don't take Improved Critical. Enchant your Kukris with Keen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/keen)
Like I said, I highly recommend Keen enchantment over Improved Critical. Check out Butterfly's Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) instead. Especially if an ally is using something with a really high Crit multiplier
Going Dragon Fury will lessen your teamwork abilities, although not enough to particularly worry about.


Gang Up makes it a lot easier to get flanking, without requiring me to switch over to Golden Commander Stance, losing the extra attack, damage, and initiative bonuses from Battle Dragon's Stance.
Is it worth shifting my point buy a bit so I can start with 13 Intelligence (which I'd probably want to bump to 14 for the extra skill points) for Gang Up to try to ensure flanking?
Does this change depending on how much emphasis I put on the teamwork feats?

Your house rules eliminate the need to take Combat Expertise, but not the Int 13 requirement that usually comes with it? You might want to point out how silly that is to your DM, since PF requires you to meet all the prerequisites of prerequisite feats too (that's why INT 13 is there on Gang Up).
It changes how much you depend on flanking, not teamwork feats.

The problem with Gang Up is that it requires you to 3v1 opponents, which can leave your party open to AoEs and counter-flanking. It can be useful, but I wouldn't consider it to be something to rely on.


From the Expanded playtest, the Thrashing Dragon Style feats look decent.
I've never actually use style feats before; do styles persist outside of combat or will that essentially always be my first swift action?
For that matter, do stances persist outside of combat? Battle Dragon's Stance providing an initiative bonus suggests that they do, but the existence of the Fuse Styles feat suggests that may not be the case.
The second feat, Thrashing Dragon Pounce, seems like the best in the chain, since it would make single attack strikes more useful. Is this a correct assessment, or are there enough ways to get in more than a single attack on a strike that I don't need to worry about it?
Am I correct in thinking that the third feat, Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind, is likely not worth it? It seems that the cases that it might be useful I would be better served by just using Thrashing Dragon Twist or Thrashing Dragon Frenzy, but that does take maneuvers readied slots, so I'm unsure of the opportunity cost.

Style Feats do not persist outside of combat, you need to spend a swift action every encounter to activate them.
Stances do persist outside of combat.
To clarify with Thrashing Dragon Pounce: You don't get the bonus damage of the strike on the extra attack. Too many people try to wheedle that out and it is neither intended nor allowed by the feat. It does however allow you to TWF when you normally wouldn't, which can help you get the damage bonuses from boosts or stances that require TWFing.
Whirlwind Attack is one of those things that people would love to have, but rarely take because it's so feat intensive. This is a much easier to obtain Whirlwind Attack. It can be useful if you find yourself surrounded, or if you want to have a little fun, at this point you're already two feats into the style. If you want it, take it but no Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind isn't necessary.


Martial Charge sounds potentially good, but it also seems to fill a similar niche to Raging Hunter Pounce.
Is it worth it to combine with maneuvers like Thrashing Blades?
Is it worth it earlier than rather high level maneuvers?

Martial Charge extends your threat range with powerful maneuvers. There are pounce maneuvers out there, but once they're used they have to be recovered. Martial Charge essentially turns all your strikes into pounce maneuvers.


Advanced Study seems intriguing.
Do I even want to try to pick it up for more maneuvers known from my in-class disciplines? It seems like I'll still be mostly limited by maneuvers readied.
Since it doesn't say otherwise, I'm assuming that I must still meet prerequisites for maneuvers selected from out-of-class disciplines, which would limit me to fairly low level maneuvers. Are there any that are worth taking a feat to grab?

You'll be limited by your maneuvers readied, yes. But Advanced Study can mean the difference between knowing and readying 1 9th level maneuver, or being able to know and ready 3 9th level maneuvers. It's your choice if that's worth it or not.
Yes, you must still meet maneuver prerequisites. Low level boosts and counters are usually the best to grab. Look at stuff in Riven Hourglass, Mithral Current, Elemental Flux or Cursed Razor. Just because it's low level, doesn't mean it isn't useful.


Extra Readied Maneuver sounds pretty good in theory, as it potentially expands my versatility with maneuvers and gives me more longevity between recovering maneuvers.
Is the extra versatility worth the feat slot?
Will I typically be recovering maneuvers slowly enough to even worry about longevity? I don't have a good sense of how much I'll be recovering through gambits.

I think that covers my outstanding questions... though, looking back, it looks like I'm asking a lot more than I thought I was. So, many thanks to anyone that actually takes the time to answer some or all of them.

Extra Readied Maneuver is one of those "if you can fit it in" feats. You won't usually need it, but it's nice to have.
Gambits are both really easy and really good to use. They'll honestly compete with boosts for your swift action pretty regularly. Don't forget that using a gambit gives you a luck bonus equal to your CHA modifier on the D20 roll used to perform the gambit, that is a huge benefit in and of itself, but the additional Reward of the Gambit is often as good as another boost by itself, and it benefits your allies. Gambits are one of the best recovery methods in PoW and PoW:E.

[Snowbluff]

Acrobatic Gambit is a good source of Damage (if you have multi hit standard action maneuvers), and the Victory Gambit is a good bonus to hit.

[ZZTRaider]

Alright, that helps a lot, thanks!

As far as Improved Critical vs Keen... I definitely see the benefits of an enchantment over a feat; money is more available in the long run, usually. I'm just uncertain about my ability to get two well enchanted kukris with keen. Since this is a play by post, I haven't played with this DM before, so I don't know what to expect on availability for weapons that are exactly what I want. Are there any magic items I can look for or anything that would essentially let me treat both weapons as if they're enchanted like my mainhand?

[Greenish]

Hone Weapon might be "just" damage, but it's a scaling damage boost for your whole party. What with how many beatsticks you have, I'd definitely consider taking it, if you can stomach the silliness.

[EDIT]: You might also want Deft Maneuvers (from your link), to better utilize many of the warlord gambits. Even if you have a maneuver to avoid provoking, the +2 will help.

[Vhaidara]

Side note about victory gambit: it can't recover if you kill with a strike. It specifies an attack or full attack. I learned that the hard way.

[Snowbluff]

Side note about victory gambit: it can't recover if you kill with a strike. It specifies an attack or full attack. I learned that the hard way.

... Oh wow. It's a good thing I prefer Gambits with stronger bonuses then. I like the ones that give buffs to my allies for a full round.

[Callin]

I got an idea for a Vanguard Warlord using Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting (POW Ex) to use a Heavy Shield. I like the Offense and Defense it gives when it comes to TWF. You keep access to Thrashing Dragon and a Shield is a Close Weapon so you can use Broken Blade (if you get it through other means) as well. As a Standard Action you could get 3 Shield Bashes with Flurry Strike or 1 Weapon 2 Shield Bashes with Swift Claws from Thrashing Dragon. Good way to be Mobile and still get plenty of Attacks. Also you can Shield Bash when you use a Counter against an Adjacent Opponent.

Something to look at if you dont want to go the standard TWF route.

[Snowbluff]

I got an idea for a Vanguard Warlord using Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting (POW Ex) to use a Heavy Shield. I like the Offense and Defense it gives when it comes to TWF. You keep access to Thrashing Dragon and a Shield is a Close Weapon so you can use Broken Blade (if you get it through other means) as well. As a Standard Action you could get 3 Shield Bashes with Flurry Strike or 1 Weapon 2 Shield Bashes with Swift Claws from Thrashing Dragon. Good way to be Mobile and still get plenty of Attacks. Also you can Shield Bash when you use a Counter against an Adjacent Opponent.

Something to look at if you dont want to go the standard TWF route.

The Iron Turtle Snap style feat gives you a weapon hit on a bash. >:3

[Dusk Eclipse]

I honestly wish there were ways to mix styles feats other than MotMS, some combinations are ridiculously fun.

[Snowbluff]

I honestly wish there were ways to mix styles feats other than MotMS, some combinations are ridiculously fun.

Yeah, style feat rules are a freaking travesty. I miss [Tactical].