Light Cleric 5 Evocation Wizard 2 - where to from here?

[Hexilim]

The main character focus for me is a follower of Pelor or Belenus, a zealot of sorts who worships the Sun and wishes to expel darkness wherever he goes.

Character: Variant Human, Light Cleric 5, Evocation Wizard 2.
Feats: Magic Initiate: Druid (Shillelagh, Produce Flame, Goodberry), Warcaster.
Gear: Medium Armor, Arcane Focus Quarterstaff (WIS), Holy Symbol emblazed Shield.
Stats: 10, 14, 12, 14, 16, 8

Idea is to use the evocation wizards sculpt spell to throw faerie fire around to help allies, then rush into melee and throw fireballs, burning hands, command to provoke OAs for even more damage for the team etc. - mainly because it seems like a whole lot of fun!

Perhaps even pick up polearm master eventually to make use of my bonus actions at all times?
Greenflame blade?

However, I'm not sure where to go from here?

15 Wizard 5 cleric?
12 Wizard 8 cleric?
4 wizard 16 cleric?
2 wizard 18 cleric?

The wizard comes packed with tons of utility and fun, the cleric with more damage (however, between burning hands, scorching ray and fireball I'm not sure I need more versions?). What am I not thinking about?

And a final thought - I'm thinking of trying to suggest swapping some spells out on the Light Domans list:
* Flaming Sphere for Heat Metal
* Daylight for Crusader's Mantle

I don't expect this to be agreed with, but both flaming sphere and daylight feels wasted due to radiance of the dawn and other cleric damage spells taking their place already.

TLDR; How would you continue the build above and what choices do you think would best help both fluff and mechanics?

[djreynolds]

You're already 5th level, it'd would take a long time to get to 15 wizard level. Get enough to sculpt spell and leave it. I would've personally grabbed sorcerer but you lack charisma to make it worth it for "meta-magic". But duel caster never works out, even for eldritch knight/wizard.

17/3 or 18/2. Just enough for sculpt spell and some extra utility. You can switch out spells, but you're spell book if full of enough oomph already.

[Hexilim]

duel caster never works out, even for eldritch knight/wizard.

Why?

Plenty of synergy between the CHA casters imo (warlock sorcerer, warlock bard etc), but wizard being the odd one out due to INT makes it hard to dual with another caster, I can agree on that.
Still unsure what you are basing the comment on.

I did look at sorcerer as well but the very limited spell list kept me away from it.
While metamagic is nice, I'm not sure it's worth pursuing as the cost for sculpt spell is far higher than the wizard feature (which was the main reason for the dip in the first place).

Twin spell certainly could be useful, but I'm not sure it outweighs having a familiar, spell book and non-prepared rituals?

[Strill]

The majority of a caster's power comes from their highest level spells, which can single-handedly decide encounters. By taking two levels in another class, you're left perpetually without your highest level spells. That's why caster multiclasses don't work.

[Hexilim]

The majority of a caster's power comes from their highest level spells, which can single-handedly decide encounters. By taking two levels in another class, you're left perpetually without your highest level spells. That's why caster multiclasses don't work.

But isn't this based on the assumption that a class will be played at level 20 - which is quite rare indeed?
Additionally, with only 1 slot per long rest for the highest level spells, it feels odd to base your character around this concept, but maybe I'm missing something?

Looking at the cleric spell list, past 5 I see mainly situational spells aside from a few very potent spells, but most are healing focused and I can't say I feel like I would miss out on anything really.
Though this is based on my inexperience in higher level play.

I guess a more relevant question then is - are the lvl 7-10 spells for a cleric really that important and game changing that it's worth optimizing for a theoretical end-game build that might be a year away?
Or are the added utility and class features of another caster through 1-19 going to be the more optimized build?
Looking at a "lifetime efficiency" angle.

Optimization to me means making the character you have currently the best it can be given the limitations found within, rather than theoretically imagining a situation that likely won't occur. I should probably have clarified that.

Thanks for the input!

[Strill]

But isn't this based on the assumption that a class will be played at level 20 - which is quite rare indeed?No. Not at all. At any given level you will be behind by one spell level, and will thus be missing your highest level spells.

Cleric spells are designed such that the Cleric gets the counters to status effects at the same levels where you begin to encounter monsters with those status effects. When you multiclass, you leave yourself constantly open to the latest status effects.

As I said before, the highest level spells trump everything that came before. For example, take a level 7 Cleric. They can cast Banishment, which can easily trivialize encounters by taking the strongest enemy out of the fight while you mop up its allies. Once the boss comes back, your entire party will have attacks readied to kill it immediately.

A Cleric 5, _____ 2 will be stuck without that spell. They can't come anywhere near to deciding encounters with a single spell.

[Citan]

You're already 5th level, it'd would take a long time to get to 15 wizard level. Get enough to sculpt spell and leave it. I would've personally grabbed sorcerer but you lack charisma to make it worth it for "meta-magic". But duel caster never works out, even for eldritch knight/wizard.

17/3 or 18/2. Just enough for sculpt spell and some extra utility. You can switch out spells, but you're spell book if full of enough oomph already.

Hi!
I tend to disagree with you on part of the bolded sentence. I don't see how, for example, the lvl 9 EK ability could not benefit a Bard whose spelllist includes many debuffs. Or how Paladin and any CHA-based caster (preferably Sorcerer for Metamagic or Bard for Magic Secrets) could not synergize.

For pure casters mix however, indeed, any mix past dip 2 will make your character less powerful spellwise. You clearly lose encounter-defining spells at higher levels. So if you're role is that of a caster it would be a bad idea.

It does not mean that it's bad in all cases, because you gain versatility or focused efficiency instead (take Bard / Sorcerer for example to ensure that the Bestow Curse succeeds with Heightened Spell and have more diversified spelllist).
You just have to consider yourself not as a caster but more as a half-caster such as some archetypes (and plan accordingly to have a way to deal decent sustained damage).

[Nifft]

But isn't this based on the assumption that a class will be played at level 20 - which is quite rare indeed?

At level 20, a 2 or 3 level dip is less relevant, because you hit level 17 and get your 9th level spells.

The other guy's point is more relevant before level 20, when 2 levels of something else do cost you something.


For pure casters mix however, indeed, any mix past dip 2 will make your character less powerful spellwise. You clearly lose encounter-defining spells at higher levels. So if you're role is that of a caster it would be a bad idea.

It does not mean that it's bad in all cases, because you gain versatility or focused efficiency instead (take Bard / Sorcerer for example to ensure that the Bestow Curse succeeds with Heightened Spell and have more diversified spelllist).
You just have to consider yourself not as a caster but more as a half-caster such as some archetypes (and plan accordingly to have a way to deal decent sustained damage). Agree, it can work out, and making it work out is about figuring out if you can get a benefit which is worth what you lose.

Sorcerers who dip two levels in Warlock seem to like the benefits. Dipping 3 levels is viable, if your party makes use of short rests.

[CNagy]

Also keep in mind that these boards are optimization-heavy.

In the actual game, it doesn't often matter if you are 9th level with access to just 4th level (or even 3rd level) spells. Sometimes it makes a difference, but it's not the sort of thing you'll be noticing in every single encounter. It matters even less if there is another full caster in the party. There are very, very few ways to build a character to failure.

That said, looking at your character I don't see any reason to keep adding Wizard levels. Evoker's abilities all strike me as "meh" save for Sculpt, which you already have, and Overchannel, which you'd have to get to character level 19 just to use. Best just stick with Cleric from here on out unless there are some Wizard spells you absolutely want to have.

[Hexilim]

Also keep in mind that these boards are optimization-heavy.

In the actual game, it doesn't often matter if you are 9th level with access to just 4th level (or even 3rd level) spells. Sometimes it makes a difference, but it's not the sort of thing you'll be noticing in every single encounter. It matters even less if there is another full caster in the party. There are very, very few ways to build a character to failure.

That said, looking at your character I don't see any reason to keep adding Wizard levels. Evoker's abilities all strike me as "meh" save for Sculpt, which you already have, and Overchannel, which you'd have to get to character level 19 just to use. Best just stick with Cleric from here on out unless there are some Wizard spells you absolutely want to have.

I suppose adding the "optimization" tag to the thread I should've expected this feedback. I just thought of it as "how can I optimize what I have" which isn't perhaps what the intention of the tag means here, my bad.

Fair points and more along the lines of what I was looking for, I was thinking that counterspell would almost be a necessity for a caster, but there will be a sorcerer/warlock in the team as well who could likely fill that role.

Thanks for your input!

[Hexilim]

No. Not at all. At any given level you will be behind by one spell level, and will thus be missing your highest level spells.

Cleric spells are designed such that the Cleric gets the counters to status effects at the same levels where you begin to encounter monsters with those status effects. When you multiclass, you leave yourself constantly open to the latest status effects.

That makes sense, but I still think it's very situational making it hard to claim it's always the optimal choice.
But I do understand your point better now, thank you.

[Theodoxus]

It also depends on what the campaign is focused on. If you're dealing with lots of popcorn encounters, then using AOEs with your sculpting ability will be sufficient. If you're instead dealing with intrigue and potential threats from the dark corners of society, where status effects are common, you might want to diversify with more wizard spells to overcome additional threats (although, given you went with the 2nd and 3rd most blastery options (outside of fire sorc) for classes, I'm assuming you're looking more at the first than the second).

As someone who played a Cleric 4/Arcane Trickster x - when I got my 3rd level of rogue, and thus my 3rd level spell slot, I was excited by the prospect of boosted spell power, but saddened I didn't have 3rd level spells. There isn't much more, outside of rituals (which are a huge thing, so it should be considered) that wizard offers over more cleric. I could see going to 4/16, for the ASI - but if you're not sure where the campaign will end, it probably matters less (and even so, I'd hit 8 Cleric first (1 for the ASI and 2 for the damage boost to Sacred Flame.)

So, I guess, were I in your shoes, I'd truck on with Cleric until I found an in game reason to continue with Wizard... (Though I really want a reason to play a Cleric10/Wizard10 game someday.)

[djreynolds]

I like the idea of the evocation and sculpt spell with the cleric spells, it could be very potent.

I would like to see how it works out, pros and cons for you.

But sculpt spell may only work for so many of your comrades if they are all in melee. But he idea of centering a fireball on yourself is cool. And clerics do have some awesome evocation spells and you can tank. So its a viable idea at least.

Cool idea

For eldritch knight, what do you want? An extra attack? Are you the primary caster or primary melee? I had a thread on it, I'm looking into it as well. Cantrip and attack is cool though. But why? If you're not the party's main caster and not the primary melee person, go for it they will appreciate it.