[3.5] Hypothetical Pseudo-Gestalt Question

[Thurbane]

Say, for the sake of argument, you were allowed to play any Tier 4 or lower class gestalted with any NPC class (Adept, Expert etc.) alongside regular (non-gestalt) Tier 3 and higher characters - are there any combos that would lift them up an entire Tier?

Would, say, a gestalt Monk//Adept have enough advantage over a standard Monk to rise up a full tier?

Would there be any worthwhile combos that didn't involve Adept?

...just pondering a possible variant rule for an offshoot game I may run one day.

Cheers - T

[Dread_Head]

Adept is usually classified as tier 4 so any tier 5 or 6 class gestalted with it is likely to rise an entire tier. Some of the Tier 4's might even make it into tier 3 if gestalted with Adept. Particularly classes like Rogue, Scout or Ranger.

Expert combined with some of the classes in tier 5 is probably enough to push them up a tier as more skills from any list will bring some solid utility to a fighter, paladin or knight.

Edit: A warrior gestalt is unlikely to push any class up a tier but will help some classes out in combat (rogue, monk, scout etc).
And commoner and aristocrat don't really offer enough to have any effect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Warrior, Adept, and Expert are the only two that matter. Warrior gives you a bit more combat punch, Expert greatly improves your skills, Adept is a nice utility boost with the potential for more, given appropriate build resources. Given that...


Rogue benefits from either Warrior (rendering Daring Outlaw superfluous) or Adept (gaining more tricks). I don't think Warrior is enough to boost it, but Adept might be. Introduces more MAD on an already-MAD chassis, though.
Barbarian doesn't really work well with any of them-- the Adept's spells conflict with Rage, although they get a share of buffs, they're already better than Warriors, and they get 4+Int skill points. I'd probably take Expert, but I don't think any of them push him up a tier.
Warlock... melee Warlocks will love Warrior for more attacks with Eldrich Glaive and/or better Eldrich Claw strikes, and anyone will love Expert to give them the skills to go with their utility Invocations. Either way, I'd say they move up a tier, assuming the aforementioned abilities and/or Hellfire Warlock are on the table.
Warmage... Expert really helps, especially since you have high Cha and Int as a secondary score. Say hello to a high-damage party face skillmonkey! Tier 3, easy. They're really tier 3.5 anyway.
Scout works out pretty much the same as the Rogue.
The Ranger gets bupkiss. The most they can hope for is a few new skills from Expert, but nothing is going to budge them here.
Hexblade likes Expert for much the same reasons as the Warmage. You can be a passable face, though your offense still isn't very good. Adept is pretty redundant and too MAD to be worth it, methinks.
(Adept would be pretty decent gestalted with Warrior...)
Marshal... would like Expert (party face) or Adept (MAD), but is low enough in the tier that I'm not sure he'd be lifted out of it. Still an improvement, but not the biggest one.
Fighter plus Expert is a decent mundane badass, while adding Adept makes him a solid gish. The former lifts him into high T4, the latter maybe all the way to T3-- especially if Dungeoncrasher and/or Zhentrim Warrior are added.
Monk combos beautifully with Adept, given the Wis focus on both classes. Warrior would help some, but the buffs and utility spells go a long way, methinks-- especially with a dip in Contemplative or Soverign Speaker or something. T4 with Adept, and maybe with Warrior too.
Ninja likes Adept for the Wisdom synergy, obviously, but might take Warrior as well. It gives you another good save and a full BAB, so you can brawl it up much more nicely. Adept probably hits T3; Warrior T4.
Healer would LOVE Adept to pick up some offensive casting and double down on Wisdom. Warrior might also work, on a "stand and fight and keep yourself topped off" kind of way. The unicorn companion can help you be a decent mounted fighter,at that. That's certainly enough to get you to T4; Sanctified Spells and domain dips can get you the rest of the way to T3.
Swashbuckler... Doesn't get much from anyone. Expert might help a bit on the skill side- you can at least afford stealth and social skills, or or Knowledge Devotion it up- but warrior does nothing and Adept doesn't have great synergy. No tier change.
Soulknife would enjoy the Warrior's improved BAB, letting it at least do what it's supposed to. Might get to T4, but probably not.
Paladin would very much enjoy the Expert's skills, letting it put its high Charisma to proper use. Combine with Serenity and you've solved at least the biggest issue with the class. Proper ACFs can do the rest, as the A-Game Paladin demonstrates. T3 easy, once spats come into play.
Knight... Pretty much the same as Paladin, but you're let down by no spells and weaker support. Maybe T4.
Divine Mind can take Adept and enjoy it greatly, or Warrior and enjoy it somewhat- you'll probably wind up a standard power attacker, but you'll get some decent tricks. T4 easy.
Soulborn... Expert lets you be a good face, and you get magic tricks when power attack starts to to lose its luster. You should have a solid T4, maybe even 3 with a dip in Incarnate.
Samurai is similar to the Knight- Expert helps, enough to get into T5, but the main chassis gives even less- you're basically a Warrior//Expert.


It certainly helps, a lot. Expert turns you into a decent skillmonkey on top of whatever you already had, while Adept adds a lovely dusting of buffs, utility, and offensive spells that can easily be expanded by a domain or two. Even Warrior can be used on occasion to turn a bag-o-weak-tricks guy into a gishy guy.

[Flickerdart]

I would set the cutoff point at T5 - T4s and T3s in the same party work just fine, but the T5s really need help.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Something like this is actually suggested as a balance fix in the tier system thread (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0), second post:


Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.


Making it so any Tier 4 or lower class can gestalt with any NPC class makes the Tier 5-6 classes less desirable than the above fix, since that lets them gestalt with other Tier 5-6 classes, and Tier 3 classes don't get any help at all. Keep in mind however that the above fix is designed to put characters on par with a Tier 1-2 party, so if you're aiming for more of a Tier 3 play range then I think you're onto something. However, I would make it so Tier 4 can't gestalt with Adept or Magewright, since adding Warrior or Expert gestalt should be enough to bring any of those up to the level of a Tier 3. Just about any full BAB class can benefit from gestalting Expert for improved skills and a good Will save. Just about any non-full-BAB class can benefit from gestalting Warrior for BAB and Fort saves and maybe HD, or Expert for improved skills and Will save. Gestalting Adept or Magewright with the Tier 5-6 classes will add much-needed utility and buffing, but Tier 4 classes shouldn't need that much of a boost. Also remember that Expert can get you UMD as a class skill, and that alone is sometimes worth an entire tier.

[Chronos]

Warlock is already pretty close to the line between Tiers 3 and 4, and some (including I) would argue that they should already be considered a 3. Given a boost like this, they'd definitely be comfortably into 3, but they're still going to be far from reaching 2.

And Incarnate wasn't listed there-- Assuming that they're considered to be of a tier that's allowed to combine with NPC classes, either Expert or Warrior will serve them quite well. As-is, they're already half-decent at either skillmonkeying or combat, but they get there through nonstandard means. Give them full BAB or actual skill points in addition to what they've got, and they'd be quite competent at one or the other, while still being moderately good at the other.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And Incarnate wasn't listed there
I think they're usually considered T3, but they could certainly use an Expert gestalt...

[atemu1234]

Gestalt usually is considered to keep tier at the highest tier of its components. A Fighter // Wizard is T1, for example.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the great breakdown, Grod.

Wouldn't Ranger and especially Paladin get some decent synergy from Adept?

Paladin can use DMM, after all.

[nedz]

Thanks for the great breakdown, Grod.

Wouldn't Ranger and especially Paladin get some decent synergy from Adept?

Paladin can use DMM, after all.

Yes - this is what I wanted to say.

Grod's list is good, but Ranger and Paladin would benefit from Adept. Both have Wisdom as a tertiary stat and both could use more spells. Given Adept's limited spell list it's not quite a tier, IMHO, but it's probably half a tier; because more options.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wouldn't Ranger and especially Paladin get some decent synergy from Adept?
It certainly wouldn't hurt, but... Both have great spell lists, at least when you take splats into account. They already get buffs and utility and- at least for the paladin- healing. Neither is likely to have the Wisdom to make good use of the offensive spells. Adept is just... redundant.

Now, if you MERGED the two casting options, instead of just getting both, so they got 5th level casting from both lists, that would be an entirely different story. A lovely T3 story.