Longbow?

[Gerrtt]

I'm not sure why, but I always thought Haley was using a shortbow seeing how as it's on the rogue's weapon list and spending a feat to learn to use a longbow would be silly since rogues are feat starved anyways. Not to mention that when your damage comes from sneak attack your base weapon damage matters less and less as you get stronger. Just curious if anyone else thought the same thing.

[kpenguin]

Maybe Haley used that Human bonus feat for MWP: Longbow. Or maybe rogues in OOTSverse get longbow proficiency. My question is why its a longbow and not a composite longbow.

[Setra]

Maybe Haley used that Human bonus feat for MWP: Longbow. Or maybe rogues in OOTSverse get longbow proficiency. My question is why its a longbow and not a composite longbow.
Maybe Longbow is just easier to say?

[Adeptus]

Maybe Haley used that Human bonus feat for MWP: Longbow. Or maybe rogues in OOTSverse get longbow proficiency. My question is why its a longbow and not a composite longbow.

What the he** is a composite longbow? Must be some D&D thing again.

Longbow, check
Composite bow, check

But a composite longbow? That doesn't mean anything :(

[Green Bean]

Isn't longbow proficiency part of the half-celestial package? :smallamused:

[Setra]

What the he** is a composite longbow? Must be some D&D thing again.

Longbow, check
Composite bow, check

But a composite longbow? That doesn't mean anything :(
If memory serves... a Composote [Length]bow is the same as a normal bow, except you can apply your strength bonus to attacks.

[Ladorak]

No, that's a Mighty Longbow. I don't have the handbook to hand, but as i recall it gives improved range.

[Glorfindel]

No, that's a Mighty Longbow. I don't have the handbook to hand, but as i recall it gives improved range.
Correct, see:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons

(scroll to Martial weapons, Ranged section).

[Raven T.]

All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow.

There's your answer. It does increase the range increment by 10ft, as well.

[Grendita]

Composite also means a bow made of more than one material, for example wood and bone as opposed to just normal wood. So I assume a Composite longbow is a bow which is taller than its user and made out of two matierials.

[evileeyore]

Composite also means a bow made of more than one material, for example wood and bone as opposed to just normal wood. So I assume a Composite longbow is a bow which is taller than its user and made out of two matierials.

A [D&D] Longbow need not be taller than you. In fact most aren't. They are just bows too big to used mounted. And coincidentally do 1 die type more damage than Short Bows and have a slightly greater range.

[Spiryt]

She could take profinency beacuse of range 40' of difference is big difference when shooting on distance. Sneak atack however has max 30' range anyway (she certainly isn't order of the bow initiate.)

[the_tick_rules]

OOTS doesn't always follow PHB, anything's possible

[Charity322]

She can wield it mounted because she shot at those giants while on the horse.

And if she's a Rogue she might be a Dex build and not have a high Str modifier for a composite bow.

[Tharr]

The great arrows used might be special in some way.

[ocato]

Isn't longbow proficiency part of the half-celestial package? :smallamused:

This idea will never die.

[Flying Elephant]

This idea will never die.
Hey, outsiders do get martial weapon proficiency for free, even just aasimars.

[ocato]

I'm not discrediting it. It might turn out true. But for months after the last OOTS, people will still go "I bet he forgot to tell us" if it doesn't.

[kpenguin]

She can wield it mounted because she shot at those giants while on the horse.

And if she's a Rogue she might be a Dex build and not have a high Str modifier for a composite bow.

Composite longobows can be wielded while mounted. I think there was a lengthy discussion at sometime on the gaming board.

[Gavin Sage]

Well since seeming Haley has spent all her feats on bowmanship she might as well go for the higher damage potential.


Hey, outsiders do get martial weapon proficiency for free, even just aasimars.

The problem is its simpler to say that's how she used her human bonus feat. Occam Razor dices Celestial Haley too pretty ribbons. Speculation or potential explanations are not in fact evidence.

[One_Wolf]

Maybe she's a half-elf and doesn't know it? :biggrin:

-One Wolf

[Droodle]

Maybe Haley has a level of scout.

[Tharr]

The magical bracers power.

[kabbor]

Well since seeming Haley has spent all her feats on bowmanship she might as well go for the higher damage potential.



The problem is its simpler to say that's how she used her human bonus feat. Occam Razor dices Celestial Haley too pretty ribbons. Speculation or potential explanations are not in fact evidence.

I think you'll find that Occam's Razor has a pretty complete "Fictional Work Exception" provision.

Indeed, in most fictional work, the most unlikely, mind-bogglingly comfustacated solution is generally correct.

[Kreistor]

But a composite longbow? That doesn't mean anything :(

A composite bow is a bow made of multiple materials. It is, like the composite armour on the M1A2 tank, not a single material, but layers of different materials that provide different qualities in different places in the machine.

The terms short bow or long bow says nothing inherently about the materials the bow is made of. A short bow or a long bow could be made of either a single material or composite materials just from their names. In DnD, the lack of composite means that it lacks the extra range of a composite bow.

For a bow, you want the part away from the body to remain rigid, providing structural strength and to be resilient to expansion. You want the inner part to compress to provide the power of a spring. For most peoples, there was no one material that did both jobs. The Mongols, for instance, created a bow from different materials glued together that did the jobs.

The Welsh were the luckiest archers on the planet. There was one tree, the yew tree, that did do both jobs; thus, the Welsh longbow provided the composite functionality without the composite manufacturing process.

The DnD stats are modelled from the normal bows of the world. Non-composite bows stats are the norm; thus, since a Welsh longbow had exceptional material strengths, it would actually qualify as a composite longbow despite being made of a single material, while a normal longbow would be made from some other single tree material (thus having shorter range due to poor compression), or a composite bow that was inferior due to the lack of good materials for its construction.

So far as I know, no one ever made a composite long bow in our world, but theoretically it should have been possible. The Mongols didn't want big bows, because they rode (and shot from) short ponies and their bows needed to not hit the ground as they rode, but had they a need for a longbow, their process probably would have made a good composite long bow.

[Kreistor]

There are several possibilities for Haley to have gotten her proficiency with longbow.

1) Haley has a second class she has never mentioned (a 1 level dip for martial weapons, for instance). Could be a PrC, too. Ranger, at the very least, would be an excellent choice for her, but one would think she would have mentioned a favored enemy by now.

2) Haley took WPF(Longbow). [I would have to ask "If the Greatbow was available, why not go for that instead?"]

3) Haley is an aasimar. (Outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons.) Some have suggested this, for whatever reason. [I don't agree with it, but it is a possibility. Aasimar are supposed to be visibly identifiable, like tieflings.] It is conceivable, if unlikely.

[Gavin Sage]

I think you'll find that Occam's Razor has a pretty complete "Fictional Work Exception" provision.

Indeed, in most fictional work, the most unlikely, mind-bogglingly comfustacated solution is generally correct.

No I find it much more useful in fictional settings since there is a much more solid grasp of the facts then the real world gives us.

[vrellum]

What if the bow isn't actually hers, but she grabbed it because the badguys were too far away to hit with a shortbow? Maybe the nonprofiency penalty is why she missed with all 4? shots.

[GSFB]

Or maybe the Giant uses the simple "a bow is a bow is a bow" house rule.

Seriously, if you are at all proficient with one sort of bow, then (as long as you have the strength to pull the string), you can use any sort of bow. We are talking about hitting goblin-sized targets thirty feet away, not Olympic-level archery competition. Until you get to distant or tiny targets, where you need to compensate for windage and elevation, there isn't much difference from one bow type to another, other than how hard you have to pull.

Who wants :haley: to find a fiberglass compound bow?

[Bogardan_Mage]

Maybe she's a half-elf and doesn't know it? :biggrin:

-One Wolf
1) No ear.
2) Half-elves don't get longbow proficiency anyway. Only full elves do.

[Eogan]

Who wants :haley: to find a fiberglass compound bow?

Ugh! How gauche! No thank you.

Although, if she were to happen upon a yumi whilst in Japanoland... :smallcool:


Not to mention that when your damage comes from sneak attack your base weapon damage matters less and less as you get stronger.
I don't play D&D. Does bow damage really continue to increase as you get stronger? Because that's a completely idiotic concept. The only thing that should increase with strength is draw-speed and accuracy. Over-drawing a bow is a VERY bad idea, especially one made from natural materials.

[SPoD]

I don't play D&D. Does bow damage really continue to increase as you get stronger? Because that's a completely idiotic concept. The only thing that should increase with strength is draw-speed and accuracy. Over-drawing a bow is a VERY bad idea, especially one made from natural materials.

Sort of. If you have a high Strength, you can buy a bow that is made for your Strength, and it does more damage, but you cannot apply your Strength to a bow that is not made for it. So if you have a +4 Strength bonus, you can get more damage out of a bow built for +4, but if you pick up a bow built for +2, you only get +2. And if you pick up a bow built for +6, you still get to add +4 damage, but it's tough to pull back right and you get a -2 to your attack roll to see if you hit.

So yeah, you can't overdraw the bows, so much as you can reverse-engineer the right type of bow for you based on your Strength.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't play D&D. Does bow damage really continue to increase as you get stronger? Because that's a completely idiotic concept. The only thing that should increase with strength is draw-speed and accuracy. Over-drawing a bow is a VERY bad idea, especially one made from natural materials.

Bow-damage doesn't increase. A rogue's Sneak Attack damage increases and sneak attack can be used with ranged weapons.

Damage is also about precision, hence critical hits dealing more damage and the Weapon Specialisation feat.

[Kreistor]

I don't play D&D. Does bow damage really continue to increase as you get stronger? Because that's a completely idiotic concept. The only thing that should increase with strength is draw-speed and accuracy. Over-drawing a bow is a VERY bad idea, especially one made from natural materials.

That's not how it works. When you buy a bow with the mighty quality, it has a strength bonus rating. If your strength bonus is the same or higher, your damage with that bow is 1Dx+the bow's str bonus. If your strength is less, your bow damage is 1Dx+your strength bonus. So, yes, bows have a cap beyond which you can't pull it harder, but you can under-draw the bow if you lack the strength to pull the full weight of it.

Strength has no affect on accuracy of ranged weapons, only damage, in DnD.

[Rincewind]

I'm not sure why, but I always thought Haley was using a shortbow seeing how as it's on the rogue's weapon list and spending a feat to learn to use a longbow would be silly since rogues are feat starved anyways. Not to mention that when your damage comes from sneak attack your base weapon damage matters less and less as you get stronger. Just curious if anyone else thought the same thing.

... Well maybe she just used a longbow?

[factotum]

... Well maybe she just used a longbow?

Then she would get a -4 on her to hit roll, unless she happened to have taken the martial weapon proficiency feat for a longbow. Seems to me that's the LAST thing she'd want to do when trying to hit a difficult target at long range.

[Delgarde]

2) Haley took WPF(Longbow). [I would have to ask "If the Greatbow was available, why not go for that instead?"]

Because while there's no actual rules for it, not all GMs will let a player get away with carrying something that big while clambering around on the rooftops. A greatbow may be superior in every way, but it's hardly a realistic choice of weapon for the typical rogue...

[vrellum]

Then she would get a -4 on her to hit roll, unless she happened to have taken the martial weapon proficiency feat for a longbow. Seems to me that's the LAST thing she'd want to do when trying to hit a difficult target at long range.

Unless the target was too far away to be hit by a shortbow.

[Firestar27]

A composite bow is a bow made of multiple materials. It is, like the composite armour on the M1A2 tank, not a single material, but layers of different materials that provide different qualities in different places in the machine.
You may be right, but there is something that you are overlooking. I remember reading somewhere (might be in a DnD book and therefore may lack historical accuracy) that a normal is unbent without a string. It is straight in its unstrung form. A composite bow is bent in its unstrung form and it is even more bent in its strung form. I may be wrong though.

[Kreistor]

You may be right, but there is something that you are overlooking. I remember reading somewhere (might be in a DnD book and therefore may lack historical accuracy) that a normal is unbent without a string. It is straight in its unstrung form. A composite bow is bent in its unstrung form and it is even more bent in its strung form. I may be wrong though.

You're thinking of re-cruving the bow, I think. A recurve makes teh force you exert on the bow a flat value across the entire draw. Non-recurved bows have need greater draw strength as they bend.

There's nothing to prevent a long bow from being recurved. It can be big and bent instead of small and bent.

[Yeril]

No, that's a Mighty Longbow. I don't have the handbook to hand, but as i recall it gives improved range.

In 3.5 there are no mighty bows, they are called Composite bows.

[Ladorak]

Oh, I play 3.0, thanks for the update. See, who needs to buy new rulebooks when you can just misquote the rules and wait for someone to correct you :smallsmile:

[Zafuel]

1) No ear.
2) Half-elves don't get longbow proficiency anyway. Only full elves do.

Half-human elf. Besides, I still don't get what the problem with her taking the proficiency is.

[Twilight Jack]

There is no problem, per se, except that rogues don't get a whole bunch of feats, so to see her waste one on a weapon that she really doesn't need is a bit startling to some of us. Since many of us have conjectured that there's more to Haley than meets the eye, and since certain celestially based racial templates include automatic proficiency in longbow, it could be taken to suggest her true nature.

Then again, maybe Rich just prefers her with a longbow or happened not to notice the discrepancy with the rogue's normal proficiencies and we're all reading way too much into every tiny detail.

It's still a good time.

[Squark]

To some of the above posters, while yes, when looking in the weapon description, a composite ___bow is madeof multiple materials, most of us either didn't read that part or forgot it... And since the picture of the composite long/short bow is a recurved bow, I can see where the misconception started. Fact is, until I pulled out my phb, I thought there was something wrong with your descriptions, too!

[Tobz]

Most real 'Welsh Longbows' are between 5 and 6 feet tall and drawing one is beyond most women (and a lot of men as well).

If Rich is making Haley use a 'longbow', it's definately the fictional D&D version, probably derived from pretty much all bows longer then 4 feet getting the same misnomer since medieval times in mainland Europe.


Maybe Haley used that Human bonus feat for MWP: Longbow. Or maybe rogues in OOTSverse get longbow proficiency. My question is why its a longbow and not a composite longbow.

Because Haley isn't a STR 18 Half-Orc?

I don't know about D&D rules, but combining both techniques bowyers invented to store more energy into a bow, would likely result in something quite insane.

[Kreistor]

I don't know about D&D rules, but combining both techniques bowyers invented to store more energy into a bow, would likely result in something quite insane.

Recurving doesn't increase the amount of energy in the bow. Recurving changes the way the energy is absorbed. A non-recurve bow is harder to draw the further you draw it, so adding more energy becomes increasingly hard. The recurve straightens that curve. It takes the same amount of strength to pull the string back the first inch as it does the 24th inch.

By changing the thickness of the bow, the amount of energy it takes to draw back increases. Since bowyers could tailor the bows draw strength, it is theoretically possible to tailor such a bow for a weaker person. In our world, bows were facing increasing thicknesses of armour, so the bows had to keep getting stronger, but the opposite choice could have been made, too.

There was a maximum draw strength, though. I watched a dig of a medieval battlefield where they pulled up several skeletons of soldiers. They could tell which ones were archers and which not. Late period longbows got so powerful, that the very structure of the body reacted: the bows warped the bodies of their users. That was as far as it could be taken: any further and the human body couldn't hold the energy without tearing itself apart.

[EyethatBinds]

So no one here could believe that she simply made a less than perfect choice for feats at first level? The entire order of the stick isn't completely focussed on optimization and Haley should hardly be the exception. Keep in mind Belkar has the Craft: Disurbing Mental Image feat even though he mainly uses it on his allies when he could've taken extra rage instead so he could enjoy more numerous uses of his vast wealth of anger.
Just because it isn't a good idea doesn't mean the Order won't do it.

[factotum]

Most real 'Welsh Longbows' are between 5 and 6 feet tall and drawing one is beyond most women (and a lot of men as well).


Only because modern men and women aren't used to using such a weapon. If you trained in using a weapon like that from an early age you would develop the required musculature to use it--heck, even your skeletal structure would change (they've dug up the bodies of mediaeval archers and found the bones in one arm to be much thicker and stronger than the other thanks to constant archery practice).

[Setra]

There is no problem, per se, except that rogues don't get a whole bunch of feats, so to see her waste one on a weapon that she really doesn't need is a bit startling to some of us. Since many of us have conjectured that there's more to Haley than meets the eye, and since certain celestially based racial templates include automatic proficiency in longbow, it could be taken to suggest her true nature.
Or she could just not be optimized.

[vbushido]

So no one here could believe that she simply made a less than perfect choice for feats at first level? The entire order of the stick isn't completely focussed on optimization and Haley should hardly be the exception. Keep in mind Belkar has the Craft: Disurbing Mental Image feat even though he mainly uses it on his allies when he could've taken extra rage instead so he could enjoy more numerous uses of his vast wealth of anger.
Just because it isn't a good idea doesn't mean the Order won't do it.

Except that Craft: Whatever doesn't require a feat. It just requires spending points in the Craft: Whatever skill. Not the optimal buy for a ranger, but nothing saying he can't assign points to it. After all, the point he's not putting in Spot, Search, Listen, Animal Handling, Survival, et. al. are being spent somewhere. Yes, there are crafting feats, but Disturbing Mental Image hardly seems as intensive a study as Wondrous Items and Arms & Armor.

-----
Support your local medical examiner--die strangely

[Setra]

Except that Craft: Whatever doesn't require a feat.
:belkar: I took Craft Disturbing Mental Image as my feat last level. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html)

[Twilight Jack]

Or she could just not be optimized.

Could be. But "just" not optimized isn't as interesting as the possibility of a deeper reason.

Many of the characters in OotS aren't optimized so far as their feat selection goes (or anything else, for that matter). The difference here is that most of their inefficient feat selection has been either funny or had meaning. Haley picking up a longbow proficiency? Not funny and no real meaning, so it's not the possibility that intrigues me.

[Ladorak]

Does anyone else think that maybe that Craft: Disturbing image thing was a joke? Or that maybe it's a longbow because it's a play on 'long shot?'

Or is that too unlikely?

[Twilight Jack]

Does anyone else think that maybe that Craft: Disturbing image thing was a joke? Or that maybe it's a longbow because it's a play on 'long shot?'

Or is that too unlikely?

Of course Craft: Disturbing Mental Image was a joke. On the other hand, the comic's name, while mildly amusing, doesn't factor in on the same level. So we are left with the fact that Haley carries a longbow. Why? Possibilities:

1) Rich neglected to note that a human rogue normally is not proficient in one when writing the dialogue for this comic. Alternately, he just didn't really care at that moment to be perfectly correct as to the rules. After all, it is a narrative not a rules set, no matter how much it may refer itself to that rules set. On the whole, this is the explanation that best fulfills the principal of Occam's Razor, for it requires us to assume the least among that which we do not know definitively.

2) Haley spent a feat to gain such a proficiency, essentially giving up the possibility of any other feat to go from d6 to d8, along with a bit of extra range. Stylistically, this feat choice doesn't make much sense either, as none of us readers actually noted the difference until we'd been told about it. Because it requires a "character" choice devoid of either meaning or any inherent humor that I can see (as opposed to Belkar's Wisdom penalties and lack of a Survival skill), it doesn't seem an adequate explanation.

3) Haley possesses some other ability or template that grants longbow proficiency for free. Since speculation already exists as to her possible celestial heritage, this explanation appeals for the time being, despite its relative complexity. Compound this with numerous clues throughout the comic's run that Haley has a bigger secret than any to which we've yet been made privy, including tiny and ambiguous clues that may suggest to the observant or obsessed that she is of angelic blood. Suddenly, the throwaway line concerning her choice of weapon looms large, since it fits with the nature of other subtle clues that may have been given in the past.

In the end, those of us who believe that Haley may indeed be of such a lineage will be proven either wrong (see explanations #1 and #2 for the longbow, and apply similar rationale to all other "clues"), or correct. If that proves to be the case then Rich is providing these clues intentionally, though surreptitiously enough that the final revelation will still come as something of a shock.

[moleytov]

This wouldn't be the first time shes used a non-optimised weapon however - she didn't seem disturbed by grabbing Elan's rapier to fight miko. Although that may have been more out of necessity than anything else...

[Twilight Jack]

But rogues have rapier proficiency as a class ability, at least.