Archer or Sorcerer

[newsman77]

Hello Fellow Gamers,

Our group is about to start up again, after a brief pause, with all new fresh faces. I've decided to take the plunge and play my first truly ranged character. For years, I play the hardened and tough front line defender, but it's time to try something else.

What would you recommend for a first time ranged character? I've been toying with the 2 builds below. What do you think?

A) Thornin Deadeye (Battlemaster Fighter) - He's a gruff, no nonsense human sharpshooter who's dead set on becoming the best trick shot in the world. He's also suspicious of EVERYONE! The idea is variant human to grab crossbow expert and then take Fighter (Battlemaster) to get those trick shots and maybe stay right with fighter all the way. That would give him access to plenty of ASI or Feats, which Alert will be one of them. I like to picture the handcross bow as his six-shooter and maybe a regular Crossbow or Longbow as his rifle. He's very Clint Eastwood.

or

B) A Warlock/Sorcerer multiclass - He's a half-elf prince who made a deal with a demon for more power. Only it backfired. The Demon double crossed him and led his enemy to victory, thus assuring the prince would lose his kingdom and be forced to serve the demon. But our prince is tough and will fight for his freedom. This would be half-elf Warlock-Sorcerer multiclass, starting with Warlock 2 (the deal with the demon), then going sorcerer the rest of the way (working to gain his freedom).

Of course, I'm always open to other suggestions, but it has to be a ranged combatant with some usefulness outside of combat.

[snowman87]

I've not had a great deal of experience with Fighters, personally, except playing alongside them, but it seems like the real debate you should be deciding on is: Multiple Attacks vs. Higher Damage Attacks/Versatile Spells. The Sorcerer and Warlock only ever get to attack once per turn without multiclassing a fair bit but they get some really neat stuff, regardless. The Eldritch Blast of the Warlock with Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear or Repelling Blast makes an incredible ranged attack, especially at lower levels. Plus the spellcasters can do lots of other effects. But compare that to the Fighter's multiple attacks combined with Action Surge. You could kill up to eight low level bad guys in one round if you hit every time. Plus the armor and health boosts. It's just a matter of how you want to play.

[Paeleus]

For your fighter idea: You could totally shut the battlefield down by taking a 2 level dip in UA variant Ranger to grab another fighting style and 4 more superiority die + maneuvers. Of course you'll miss an ASI and your 4th attack, but the trade off is fair I think. Disarm>Push>Trip on repeat seems hilariously awesome.

[TopCheese]

Hello Fellow Gamers,

Our group is about to start up again, after a brief pause, with all new fresh faces. I've decided to take the plunge and play my first truly ranged character. For years, I play the hardened and tough front line defender, but it's time to try something else.

What would you recommend for a first time ranged character? I've been toying with the 2 builds below. What do you think?

A) Thornin Deadeye (Battlemaster Fighter) - He's a gruff, no nonsense human sharpshooter who's dead set on becoming the best trick shot in the world. He's also suspicious of EVERYONE! The idea is variant human to grab crossbow expert and then take Fighter (Battlemaster) to get those trick shots and maybe stay right with fighter all the way. That would give him access to plenty of ASI or Feats, which Alert will be one of them. I like to picture the handcross bow as his six-shooter and maybe a regular Crossbow or Longbow as his rifle. He's very Clint Eastwood.

or

B) A Warlock/Sorcerer multiclass - He's a half-elf prince who made a deal with a demon for more power. Only it backfired. The Demon double crossed him and led his enemy to victory, thus assuring the prince would lose his kingdom and be forced to serve the demon. But our prince is tough and will fight for his freedom. This would be half-elf Warlock-Sorcerer multiclass, starting with Warlock 2 (the deal with the demon), then going sorcerer the rest of the way (working to gain his freedom).

Of course, I'm always open to other suggestions, but it has to be a ranged combatant with some usefulness outside of combat.

Go with Warlock/Sorcerer and pick up spellsniper. You have the best ranged option in Warlock 2 (pick up agonizing blast and darkvision invocations).

Not only will you be a master of ranged damage but you will have more/better options outside of your ranged attack.

Pick up misty step and you won't need a melee option but picking up shocking grasp wouldn't be a bad idea.

Quicken and Careful Spell metamagic are two of the best. Pop off a spell such as Sleet Storm while you plunk creatures from afar.

[TheOOB]

Depends on what your looking for, the fighter is likely the better character, only because warlock/sorcerer is a terrible multiclass combo(warlock multiclasses poorly with most classes, spell casters especially).

[TopCheese]

Depends on what your looking for, the fighter is likely the better character, only because warlock/sorcerer is a terrible multiclass combo(warlock multiclasses poorly with most classes, spell casters especially).

Nope.

Warlock 2/Sorcerer X is a fantastic multiclass combo. You can turn those Warlock spell slots into SP, do 1d10+cha force damage (x4 eventually), and you get the Dragon AC formula. You are an abolute beast.

I prefer Warlock 3/Sorcerer X but Warlock 2 works wonders.

[newsman77]

Thanks for the feedback.

Paeleus - That's Awesome!! How do you get 4 more superiority dice? I'd gladly give up a 4th attack for that fun. :) It plays right into the character concept of being the master trick shot. So you like Disarm, Push & Trip as the maneuvers instead of something like say Menacing Attack. Isn't that the one that does not let monsters get closer to you because they're frightened? How cool would it be to trick shot someone so that they're literally shaking in their boots!

Snowman & TopCheese - That sounds really cool too. You both make good arguments, especially for the Warlock/Sorcerer. I like the utility of being able to do different things. As a Warlock, don't you really want Devil's Sight Innvocation. That sounds like it's way better than regular dark vision. That could open the door to picking variant Human and picking up a feat first. I was thinking dragonborn, but you give up your action for a breath weapon? Although I'll be honest, I do like the half-elves in this edition.

[Theodoxus]

One character concept I'm toying with is a typical Fey Knight - H-Elf (Paladin 1/Warlock 2/Paladin x). He has a tricked out looking bow (think something like a high end World of Warcraft bow), but it's stringless, and fires force bolts (Eldritch Blasts). Very fey!

Then, when the proverbial poopie hits the windy-whirly, he can drop his bow, pull out his melee weapon of choice and go to town. If someone grabs his bow, thinking it's all magicky and high muckity muck, they get sadified when they realize it's just a toy prop.


As a twist, I was also thinking going with a dwarf and crossbow. I love the idea of a Zen Archer, and am quite sad there isn't a viable option for that - this at least brings back the feeling and fluff, if not the crunch. Of course, a dwarf is less optimal, but that's part of the allure.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Thanks for the feedback.

Paeleus - That's Awesome!! How do you get 4 more superiority dice? I'd gladly give up a 4th attack for that fun. :) It plays right into the character concept of being the master trick shot. So you like Disarm, Push & Trip as the maneuvers instead of something like say Menacing Attack. Isn't that the one that does not let monsters get closer to you because they're frightened? How cool would it be to trick shot someone so that they're literally shaking in their boots!

Snowman & TopCheese - That sounds really cool too. You both make good arguments, especially for the Warlock/Sorcerer. I like the utility of being able to do different things. As a Warlock, don't you really want Devil's Sight Innvocation. That sounds like it's way better than regular dark vision. That could open the door to picking variant Human and picking up a feat first. I was thinking dragonborn, but you give up your action for a breath weapon? Although I'll be honest, I do like the half-elves in this edition.

Here's the link for the article Paeleus was referring to:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes

[Paeleus]

Thanks for the feedback.

Paeleus - That's Awesome!! How do you get 4 more superiority dice? I'd gladly give up a 4th attack for that fun. :) It plays right into the character concept of being the master trick shot. So you like Disarm, Push & Trip as the maneuvers instead of something like say Menacing Attack. Isn't that the one that does not let monsters get closer to you because they're frightened? How cool would it be to trick shot someone so that they're literally shaking in their boots!

Apologies for not providing a reference link. JakOfAllTirades posted a link to the spelless ranger above.

Hmmm. I really like Menacing Attack and I think it is a must have. I'm conflicted on the usefulness of this manuever for an archer though. I like the idea of keeping baddies away, but wouldn't that just force them out of your line of sight as well? Thereby removing something to attack until the end of your next turn? I'm not completely sold on the synergy with this build, but Menacing Attack by itself is too good to not have.




Here's the link for the article Paeleus was referring to:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes

Thank you sir.

[djreynolds]

Right in the guide sections above. Way of the bowman, Eldritch Knight Archer

[Garimeth]

I'd say the bigger question is if your group is hurting for a scout or an arcane character.

FWIW though, I dig the fighter character.

[Sigreid]

Well, with fighter if you decide you hate ranged, knuckle dragged is still on the table.

[newsman77]

Well, with fighter if you decide you hate ranged, knuckle dragged is still on the table.

This is very true. Seems like it could be a big plus towards the Sharpshooter.

Thanks Garimeth!! Appreciate it. The idea of the wild west shooter is really, really appealing... but so is the single stat (CHA) based caster.

[PoeticDwarf]

For your fighter idea: You could totally shut the battlefield down by taking a 2 level dip in UA variant Ranger to grab another fighting style and 4 more superiority die + maneuvers. Of course you'll miss an ASI and your 4th attack, but the trade off is fair I think. Disarm>Push>Trip on repeat seems hilariously awesome.

If you do that, you can better take three levels ranger for horde breaker.

[djreynolds]

Often overlooked is ranger 11 for volley. It's pretty good for multiple hordes. In fact Ranger13/battlemaster 7 is actually pretty good but redundant. Ranger 12, battle-master 4, tempest cleric isn't bad or war cleric.

[newsman77]

If you do that, you can better take three levels ranger for horde breaker.

Where would you break off to take Ranger if you go Fighter? 5 seems important for Extra Attack. If you go 5, you might as well go 6 for the ASI. 7 has a great ability to judge how big and bad your opponent is. You might then go head to 8 for another ASI. After that seems logical... but is it too late in the game?

[broodax]

Minor note, if you do Warlock/Sorc, you're better off taking Sorc first for the con save proficiency. Of course that may not work if you're starting at level 2 and need to fit in both warlock levels in your backstory.

[djreynolds]

Where would you break off to take Ranger if you go Fighter? 5 seems important for Extra Attack. If you go 5, you might as well go 6 for the ASI. 7 has a great ability to judge how big and bad your opponent is. You might then go head to 8 for another ASI. After that seems logical... but is it too late in the game?

It tough, but the fighter to 4 isn't bad or even 3 just to get superiority dice and action surge. Since archers are dex dependent and you just need sharpshooter, class features will out weigh feats IMO.

I like volley, it can be nasty if you are fighting a lot of opponents. Ranger 11 is real nice and then just fill the rest in. Once you've decided on what you want for your chassis, ranger or fighter, than the other is just a cherry pick for action surge or horde breaker/ colossus slayer.

Fighter to 12 or ranger to 12 is all you need. Now you have your attacks. Cleric will give great utility to the ranger as both have wisdom. Rogue is always nice for sneak attack damage as well.

I guess what is your other job in the group. Scout-rogue fits, back up tank- straight ranger or fighter, cleric, party face- valor bard alone can cover a lot of bases, back up healer-cleric.

What is your vision of this archer? What is the party composition? Get that and then optimize.
What else outside of combat are you doing?

I actually made a 12 eldritch knight/8 wizard archer and he rocks. But we already had a melee rogue, a cleric, a paladin, a sorcerer. So I just shot stuff up in full plate, covered up for the sorcerer with spells not worth his time, and tanked with paladin. That's a big party though and we started higher.

From low levels its different.

For me, you have three chassis ranger, fighter, and valor bard. And fighter gives two additional choices, battle-master and eldritch knight. All three are very easy to multiclass with rogue, or cleric, or another martial class.