What parts Make Wizards Overpowered?

[Masakan]

I'm not talking about what kind of feats or how much, I mean which spells they use.
Like a Blasting wizard is good at dealing damage but by no means unbearable, They ever popular "God" Wizard Debilitates pretty much everyone, but that just makes things easier for everyone else, if anything these are probably the most socially accepted Variants of Wizards.

I Did notice that a lot of the reasons people consider them broken, Involve stuff like Polymorph line and endless summons(Which is why planar Shepard is almost universally banned.

What else is there?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Their ability to have answers for an extremely wide variety of situations, more than virtually any other class, is what really pushes them to the top.

[Platymus Pus]

Wizards snowball, that's mainly the reason. They get more and more and more.
A guy with an axe is always going to just be a guy with an axe. A guy that warps the fabric of reality to his will to a small degree though...

[Troacctid]

Some individual spells are overpowered, the baseline power level for high-level spells is too high, and they get so many spell slots that they're not under any realistic pressure resource-wise.

Next question please.

[Masakan]

Some individual spells are overpowered, the baseline power level for high-level spells is too high, and they get so many spell slots that they're not under any realistic pressure resource-wise.

Next question please.

Ok.Did you guys just read the title or did you actually bother to read what I posted?
Also what individual spells make them so Broken?

[Taveena]

S'the thing, isn't it? A well-placed Stinking Cloud or Sleet Storm just ENDS the fight. The enemies can't respond. At lower levels, Sleep or Color Spray can do that, too.

The whole point of the God Wizard is that you're playing a team game, and it's better if your teammates have something to do.

[Masakan]

S'the thing, isn't it? A well-placed Stinking Cloud or Sleet Storm just ENDS the fight. The enemies can't respond. At lower levels, Sleep or Color Spray can do that, too.

The whole point of the God Wizard is that you're playing a team game, and it's better if your teammates have something to do.

Stinking Cloud Can be emulated by Noxious smokesticks, Not as powerful to be sure, but still good for dealing with spellcasters.

Color Spray imo isn't worth getting simply because it doesn't scale well at all, neither does sleep.

IS Sleet storm really that strong? I don't see it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Color Spray imo isn't worth getting simply because it doesn't scale well at all, neither does sleep.
Who cares? You're a wizard, you can learn as many spells as you want.

It's not just the power of spells- it's the variety. A wizard can ALWAYS have something good up his sleeve, regardless of the situation. You don't have to be a Schrodinger wizard, just leave a few spell slots open to prepare later, and/or take Uncanny Forethought.

[Troacctid]

Ok.Did you guys just read the title or did you actually bother to read what I posted?
Also what individual spells make them so Broken?

You asked what makes the Wizard overpowered. If you wanted to know what the most overpowered spells are, that's a different question.

Individual spells don't make Wizards overpowered. A Wizard with just one spell wouldn't be overpowered (see: Shadowcaster). The overall baseline power level of spells in general is too high.

[Masakan]

Who cares? You're a wizard, you can learn as many spells as you want.

And that mindset is why people generally tend to respect sorcerers more.

[Troacctid]

And that mindset is why people generally tend to respect sorcerers more.

No it isn't. Common people usually hate and fear Sorcerers, and other spellcasters look down on them as inferior bootleg versions of Wizards.

[Masakan]

No it isn't. Common people usually hate and fear Sorcerers, and other spellcasters look down on them as inferior bootleg versions of Wizards.

Hehe I'm sorry you obviously assumed I was talking about in game.
Many of the campaigns I've been in as well as people I've talked to, Generally do not like players who gravitate towards wizards. Hell many of them played wizards themselves at one point and somewhere along the line they felt that they needed to take a shower.
But if you wanna talk in game, Wizards are generally considered, Unsociable, Introverted, Bigoted, and effectively look at everyone else as inferior.....kinda reflects the people who like to play them to be perfectly frank.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And that mindset is why people generally tend to respect sorcerers more.
I don't understand that response at all, given that "having lots of options" is the entire point of the Wizard.


But if you wanna talk in game, Wizards are generally considered, Unsociable, Introverted, Bigoted, and effectively look at everyone else as inferior.....kinda reflects the people who like to play them to be perfectly frank.
Just for that, I want to play the most friendly, cheerful, personable wizard out there.

[Masakan]

I don't understand that response at all, given that "having lots of options" is the entire point of the Wizard.


Just for that, I want to play the most friendly, cheerful, personable wizard out there.

Good Luck, The game as a whole gives you almost no feasible reason to play any good aligned wizard, let alone any sort of actual benifit. This is why most Wizards I've seen tend to go neutral, all the best prestige classes for them tend to be either neutral aligned or straight evil.

[Manly Man]

Just for that, I want to play the most friendly, cheerful, personable wizard out there.

Make sure to give him a somewhat lower Constitution score so you can bump up the Charisma and have it that no matter how awesome of a friend he is, he still can't hold his liquor for jack-all, and still ends up being liked because of how funny he is when he's drunk.

[Draconium]

Good Luck, The game as a whole gives you almost no feasible reason to play any good aligned wizard, let alone any sort of actual benifit. This is why most Wizards I've seen tend to go neutral, all the best prestige classes for them tend to be either neutral aligned or straight evil.

Evil and Neutral characters can still be friendly, cheerful, and personable, though.

[Masakan]

Evil and Neutral characters can still be friendly, cheerful, and personable, though.
..........I fail to see the connection.

[EugeneVoid]

Generally do not like players who gravitate towards wizards. Hell many of them played wizards themselves at one point and somewhere along the line they felt that they needed to take a shower.
But if you wanna talk in game, Wizards are generally considered, Unsociable, Introverted, Bigoted, and effectively look at everyone else as inferior.....kinda reflects the people who like to play them to be perfectly frank.

Kicking off a bait thread with that tasty ad hominem. Mmm

[Necroticplague]

1. Options. Wizards have all the options they care to have. Even if all the spells were very situational (many aren't), they have enough to cover every situation.
2. Resource use. Wizards can turn downtime into power.
3. Intentionally designed that way, due to moronic misconception. The idea is, a wizard was strong to start, then weakened later when they run out of spells. However, in my experience, when the wizard is out of spells, everyone else is too close to death to want to continue on, so the wizard almost never has to deal with not having spells.
4.Individual spells. Some spells are, on themselves, overpowered enough to alter balance. Many are in core, as the wizard was, so the wizard gets more of them then a lot of other casters.

[Masakan]

Kicking off a bait thread with that tasty ad hominem. Mmm

Well am I wrong? If I am Please tell me.


1. Options. Wizards have all the options they care to have. Even if all the spells were very situational (many aren't), they have enough to cover every situation.
2. Resource use. Wizards can turn downtime into power.
3. Intentionally designed that way, due to moronic misconception. The idea is, a wizard was strong to start, then weakened later when they run out of spells. However, in my experience, when the wizard is out of spells, everyone else is too close to death to want to continue on, so the wizard almost never has to deal with not having spells.
4.Individual spells. Some spells are, on themselves, overpowered enough to alter balance. Many are in core, as the wizard was, so the wizard gets more of them then a lot of other casters.

Thank you for actually answering my question.

[Kantolin]

Good Luck, The game as a whole gives you almost no feasible reason to play any good aligned wizard, let alone any sort of actual benifit. This is why most Wizards I've seen tend to go neutral, all the best prestige classes for them tend to be either neutral aligned or straight evil.

Sanctified Spells are pretty good. Generally better than Vile ones, especially the gems like Luminous Armour.

Edit:

Well am I wrong? If I am Please tell me.

Absolutely: You are incorrect with your assertion.

If anything, wizards have at least some encouragement to want to talk with other wizards, as other wizards are the best way for both of you to get spells. Most of the PCs I've seen are willing to just 'share spellbooks' even if they only get one or two spells out of it and the NPC wizard gets several, because that brings positive rapport and will get both more spells in the future and doesn't require either to risk their lives trying to kill the other to decode their possibly-trapped spellbook.

Most people I've seen play wizards were not particularly introverted. When I play a wizard, I usually am the altruistic buffer sort with the occasional control spell.

[Draconium]

..........I fail to see the connection.

That's just it. There really isn't a connection between alignment and just being a likable person.

[EisenKreutzer]

Well am I wrong? If I am Please tell me.

I have a friend who loves to play wizards. He is the nicest, kindest, gentles person I know.

[Necroticplague]

Well am I wrong? If I am Please tell me.

You are. There's no logical reason liking to play wizards would correlate with any of those traits.

[Masakan]

That's just it. There really isn't a connection between alignment and just being a likable person.

Wait there isn't? I always imagined Chaotic Evil characters being the kind who will kick a kid lying on the floor dying just because they think it's fun.

Or that true Neutral characters are hopelessly apathetic and don't really care about anything
Lawful Evil are tyrants
Chaotic Neutral are generally hedonists
Chaotic Good=Revolutionaries
Neutral Good=Mediators

Things like that. Oversimplification I know. But I don't see how True Neutral or Lawful Neutral or any of the evils could be likeable without being fake, Chaotic Neutral Maybe because at least they wouldn't be fake about it.


I have a friend who loves to play wizards. He is the nicest, kindest, gentles person I know.
Because THAT'S saying a lot.


You are. There's no logical reason liking to play wizards would correlate with any of those traits.
Is it? If you have power and you know you have power...why wouldn't you use it?

[OldTrees1]

Input:Output ratios

1) Character creation resources -> Option mobility
Wizards, like the rest of the Tier 1 casters get to select an enormous amount of valid options gained per level. The resulting variance of their repertoire means they can adjust to be at an advantage.

2) Cost -> Effect
At the low end Wizards can do 1 spell per round, so the cost is rather constant at 1 turn per effect. This is reasonable. The effect side is where it gets messy since often that single spell can be a win condition.

1st level spells from the PHB that can easily be Win Conditions (at, or in some cases above, relevant levels)
Grease
Obscuring Mist
Charm Person
Sleep
Color Spray
Silent Image
Cause Fear

In summary:
Wizards get too many options per level for Win Condition effects and those effects cost too little to use.


Wait there isn't? I always imagined Chaotic Evil characters being the kind who will kick a kid lying on the floor dying just because they think it's fun.
You would benefit from this link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448812-Alignment-Handbook-Super-Thread

[Sayt]

It's hard to point at specific problem spells, because Wizards (of the Coast) printed a lot of spells.

But generally speaking, Ice assassin is a big one that lets you kill almost anything under RAW. Foresight puts a jam on people taking you by surprise and doesn't actually interact with the people doing the sneaking. Craft Contingent Spell lets you arbitrarily nope stuff.

Resetting wish Traps is literally an exercise in minting money.

But fundamentally: There are too many spells with too much scope and without enough restriction on the kinds of things spells can do. Counterspelling is fundamentally reactive and loses out on action economy. Anti-magic effects are all too easily cheated and leave the weak classes even weaker by shutting down things they need.

[Necroticplague]

Is it? If you have power and you know you have power...why wouldn't you use it?

Why would using it inherently require being introverted, bigoted, unsociable, and full of themselves? If anything, these personality flaws actually get in the way of proper use of your power.

[Solaris]

And that mindset is why people generally tend to respect sorcerers more.

In your social circles, perhaps. In the ones I've been in, sorcerers are generally considered wizards with training wheels.


But if you wanna talk in game, Wizards are generally considered, Unsociable, Introverted, Bigoted, and effectively look at everyone else as inferior.....kinda reflects the people who like to play them to be perfectly frank.

Sure, if you wanna stick on stereotypes.
Of course, in some settings they're just as respected as doctors, scientists, and engineers are in the real world - and for much the same reasons. They may not necessarily be liked, and may or may not be feared, but they're certainly respected.
That, and unlike sorcerers who have no such organizations, wizards tend to organize into guilds. These guilds are great for PR, so while the sorcerer's stuck with having to explain how he's not like those sorcerers, the wizard's already got a guild backing him up with alleviating fear of his power (and probably shunting blame off for mad wizards onto sorcerers, as well, because obviously only someone who lacks the discipline to study could go insane and do whatever it is the mad wizard did).

[ThisIsZen]

Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive; it describes a character's general tendencies and is based on their action and outlook, rather than dictating their actions. The CE is no more compelled to kick the crying child than an LG character would be - sure, some CE characters might have a sense of humor that trite, but it's equally possible to have a character who's CE in every other way imaginable but has a soft spot for kids.

As to the thread's actual topic, I think everyone else has already answered the question better than I could.

[Masakan]

Why would using it inherently require being introverted, bigoted, unsociable, and full of themselves? If anything, these personality flaws actually get in the way of proper use of your power.

Because all they care about is power, and proving how superior they are to everyone else. They don't care about relationships, they don't care about others well being, they don't care if they are feared or hated if anything they relish it, because they know that that means they have the power
And everything they see and hear before them is theirs to control, they can see everything, do everything, be, create, become......everything.

(OH but the DM Should be able to stop them before they get that bad) It's called Incantatrix, by the time the DM knows what happens it's already too late. You completely taken control of the campaign and nothing can stop you.
What I'm basically saying is that Power Corrupts, and I look at every wizard player at my table with skeptical eyes.


In your social circles, perhaps. In the ones I've been in, sorcerers are generally considered wizards with training wheels.



Sure, if you wanna stick on stereotypes.
Of course, in some settings they're just as respected as doctors, scientists, and engineers are in the real world - and for much the same reasons. They may not necessarily be liked, and may or may not be feared, but they're certainly respected.
That, and unlike sorcerers who have no such organizations, wizards tend to organize into guilds. These guilds are great for PR, so while the sorcerer's stuck with having to explain how he's not like those sorcerers, the wizard's already got a guild backing him up with alleviating fear of his power (and probably shunting blame off for mad wizards onto sorcerers, as well, because obviously only someone who lacks the discipline to study could go insane and do whatever it is the mad wizard did).

Well of course, obviously everyone has to look down on the arcane version of the artist.

[Draconium]

Because all they care about is power, and proving how superior they are to everyone else. They don't care about relationships, they don't care about others well being, they don't care if they are feared or hated if anything they relish it, because they know that that means they have the power
And everything they see and hear before them is theirs to control, they can see everything, do everything, be, create, become......everything.

(OH but the DM Should be able to stop them before they get that bad) It's called Incantatrix, by the time the DM knows what happens it's already too late. You completely taken control of the campaign and nothing can stop you.
What I'm basically saying is that Power Corrupts, and I look at every wizard player at my table with skeptical eyes.

:smalleek: Then you, my friend, have been playing with some really horrible wizards. (In-game behavior-wise.) Wizards don't necessarily have to be anything like that.

[EisenKreutzer]

Because THAT'S saying a lot.

Wait, wait.. Are you saying that my example isn't good enough, or are you implying something else, here? Because I get the impression you are implying something about me and my circle of friends..

You know, I don't think I appreciate your tone. Your claim that people who enjoy playing wizards are bad people is hard for me to digest. I mean, why would you say something like that? Why do you feel it is neccessary to attack people the way you do, for something as trivial as liking something you don't like?

Whats up with that?

[Kantolin]

Wait there isn't? I always imagined Chaotic Evil characters being the kind who will kick a kid lying on the floor dying just because they think it's fun.

As an offhand example, a person who likes to go and torture people because he thinks it's funny is totally in-schtick to want to go drinking with his buddies and boast about it. He won't go torture them for kicks, they're his drinking buddies and he likes chatting with them about it.

Heck, that same Chaotic Evil character could also go to a bar with his lawful good buddy of his adventuring party and boast about how awesome he was for killing those orcs, and could cite how awesome said LG buddy was for that decapitation of the orcish chief who was causing all those problems for the town they're in that is now buying them free drinks. LG guy was there because it was the right thing to do, CE guy was there because he likes killing people and now he gets free drinks, awesome. He won't kill his LG friend for kicks because the LG guy covers his back, they've been friends for decades, and all he really has to do is keep the children-killing on pause for a little while so the guy doesn't whine about it. He gets plenty of targets to kill anyway.

(Now, there then can be interesting drama if the villain offers the CE character [something said character wants] in exchange for killing his LG friend. Then it becomes - which is more important? His friendship, or that other thing? Of course, that can be true in many other alignment cases - will the LG character stand up to an entire court of paladins to defend his good friend who he can trust? I mean, Roy did.)

Edit: Whoa whoa...

It's called Incantatrix, by the time the DM knows what happens it's already too late. You completely taken control of the campaign and nothing can stop you.

Is the statement 'the DM cannot possibly do anything when there is a powerful wizard PC'? Because I mean... that's a completely different question that is /also/ untrue. The DM can do whatever he wants, including have a higher level incantatrix than the PC's.

Is the statement 'Wizards can be powerful, and thus can break the game'? As this is true for an alarming amount of classes - I'm 99% sure that a Warrior (The NPC class) who is an ubercharger or close to it will break a lot of games, or at least require the DM and the rest of the players to readjust to a higher/different power level.

(And then while that warrior would be a lot easier to stop than a wizard, you do have your clerics, artificers, and druids running amok, and the tier 2 sorceror with a strong spell selection is just as locate objecting the sacred artifact and then greater teleporting to it and disjunctioning the BBEG with his army of solars.)

So I mean... you can just say 'No wizards, they will break my game', but you might want to instead have a pleasant talk with your players(or fellow players and DM) about the expected power level. If you only talk to the magic sorts, you might get martials that do N! damage - which is less potent than what the casters /could/ be doing, mind you, but it sure ruins the DM's Blackguard who is also a dragon that he expected to survive a single round of combat :P

(Which is also manageable! But you have to be prepared for it.)

[Masakan]

Wait, wait.. Are you saying that my example isn't good enough, or are you implying something else, here? Because I get the impression you are implying something about me and my circle of friends..

You know, I don't think I appreciate your tone. Your claim that people who enjoy playing wizards are bad people is hard for me to digest. I mean, why would you say something like that? Why do you feel it is neccessary to attack people the way you do, for something as trivial as liking something you don't like?

Whats up with that?

I think this thread alone has shown that one singular mans claim doesn't amount too much, You may think he's a nice guy while 5 other people think he's annoying. It's all about relativity.


As an offhand example, a person who likes to go and torture people because he thinks it's funny is totally in-schtick to want to go drinking with his buddies and boast about it. He won't go torture them for kicks, they're his drinking buddies and he likes chatting with them about it.

Heck, that same Chaotic Evil character could also go to a bar with his lawful good buddy of his adventuring party and boast about how awesome he was for killing those orcs, and could cite how awesome said LG buddy was for that decapitation of the orcish chief who was causing all those problems for the town they're in that is now buying them free drinks. LG guy was there because it was the right thing to do, CE guy was there because he likes killing people and now he gets free drinks, awesome. He won't kill his LG friend for kicks because the LG guy covers his back, they've been friends for decades, and all he really has to do is keep the children-killing on pause for a little while so the guy doesn't whine about it. He gets plenty of targets to kill anyway.

(Now, there then can be interesting drama if the villain offers the CE character [something said character wants] in exchange for killing his LG friend. Then it becomes - which is more important? His friendship, or that other thing? Of course, that can be true in many other alignment cases - will the LG character stand up to an entire court of paladins to defend his good friend who he can trust? I mean, Roy did.)

....That's Confusing.

[Mindtour]

Wait, wait.. Are you saying that my example isn't good enough, or are you implying something else, here? Because I get the impression you are implying something about me and my circle of friends..

You know, I don't think I appreciate your tone. Your claim that people who enjoy playing wizards are bad people is hard for me to digest. I mean, why would you say something like that? Why do you feel it is neccessary to attack people the way you do, for something as trivial as liking something you don't like?

Whats up with that?

Can't tell if this is accidental or a bait thread. I'm leaning towards bait based on his topic history and tone.

[EisenKreutzer]

I think this thread alone has shown that one singular mans claim doesn't amount too much, You may think he's a nice guy while 5 other people think he's annoying. It's all about relativity.

So when someone likes playing wizards, they are automatically power-hungry, insidious bastards who love to gloat, show off and control everyone and everything around them to make themselves feel better?

This is your claim?

[ThisIsZen]

If a Wizard is literally attempting to take complete control of the game, one way or another, he's playing in an arms race he can't win. No one beats the DM, that's why DM vs Player games are often so anti-fun (exceptions to this are things like survival gauntlets and such where the DM is deliberately making things hard but the players know this and that's the whole point of the exercise, of course, but in a standard campaign...).

His Incantatrix brings in a bunch of free metamagic? Talk to him. Tell him he's making the game less fun for you and everyone else. If he persists? No one survives Rule 0, and he's not abiding by the table's gentleman's agreement so should probably look elsewhere for a game.

Beyond that, everything you're describing has nothing to do with all wizards, either in or out of setting, and seems rather more like confirmation bias because you've run into bad Wizard players.

[Masakan]

Can't tell if this is accidental or a bait thread. I'm leaning towards bait based on his topic history and tone.
Buddy if I wanted to bait anyone, It would involve calling everybody on this site unbearable elitist pricks, Who can't seem to shut the hell up about how much better you are for playing certain characters, which may or may not be what I'm feeling at this moment. Just sayin.

And I'm almost sure this is gonna get me banned so excuse me while I log off.

[ThisIsZen]

Well that was short-lived.

[EisenKreutzer]

Dude, thats harsh. Chill out, man, we play this game for fun!

[YossarianLives]

Can I just point out that saying "all wizards must be evil, wizards gain no advantages from being good" is similar to saying that all IRL scientists must be evil and anti-social because silly things such as "morality" and "other people" just get in their way.

[Mindtour]

Buddy if I wanted to bait anyone, It would involve calling everybody on this site unbearable elitist pricks, Who can't seem to shut the hell up about how much better you are for playing certain characters, which may or may not be what I'm feeling at this moment. Just sayin.

And I'm almost sure this is gonna get me banned so excuse me while I log off.

I'm not your buddy, pal. Couldn't resist.

I'm sorry that you may feel that way. If you do, I'd be inclined to believe that you've simply played with less than admirable players. Cheers.

[Kantolin]

....That's Confusing.

Evil characters are also able to have friends. It is perfectly plausible to play an evil character who enjoys and even prefers having other people around.

If a character is evil because they like slitting throats, and they're part of a group that runs around slitting the throats of an enemy army who is invading the country, there are probably a very number of people of that country who are quite okay with the evil character's behavior. Win/Win.

If an evil character grew up with a good character, they probably would disagree on many things. If it comes down to 'push a button to destroy this town of innocent civilians', the good character will not want to do that while the evil character may find it funny and want to, and this could lead to a very spirited argument or a falling out. More likely, though, the evil character will throw up his hands, state, "You seriously need to get that stick out of your rear. Now I'm pissed off and want to go kill something. Let's go report in and see if commander has more missions for us." And they get a mission to go deal with more of these Illithids that have invaded the material plane, or whatever the game's plot is. They can agree on that. They also can both like the same kind of beer and might not find people with black hair attractive. And both can really enjoy when the townsfolk they rescue from the invading whatever throw them a party and build a statue in their honor. They both also might not be okay with that (Either might not like the attention it draws to them out of paranoia, either might find that to be a tremendous waste of effort that could be spent on almost anything else, even if 'anything else' is 'more beer'.)

Evil characters don't have to be jerks, although they can be. They also don't need to be saturday morning cartoon villains.

[Solarium]

Can I just point out that saying "all wizards must be evil, wizards gain no advantages from being good" is similar to saying that all IRL scientists must be evil and anti-social because silly things such as "morality" and "other people" just get in their way.

"Since when did people start expecting science to be Humane? To Study the Body, You cut it Open. To Study the Mind, You isolate it by crushing the heart. Historically, That's How science has advanced."
"The Human Heart is a Machine, and as such we can predict the outcome of any action. Considering My goal is the Power of god....People are just tools"

Serph Sheffield

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review. Obviously.