Paladin taking dex and str

[sophontteks]

So my friend calls me all excited because he bought the new D&D. I switched to pathfinder since 4th, but I gotta say, I'm pretty pleased with the new, new direction 5th is taking...
Anyway, I read the players handbook a thousand times, and I worked real hard on my character's storyline and mechanics. All that good jazz. Now I got this Paladin I'm pretty excited about, and I'd like some help wrapping him up.
He is a human variant paladin of the noble background aiming for oath of the ancients (for flavor). He's taking polearm master out the gate as well.

Now, I don't like to be a strict power gamer, but I do keep an eye for these things, and try to come up with a decent balance. At this point I'm having a bit of a conflict with what I want to roleplay, and what I want mechanically. My paladin is cali****e, and these people are known for being pretty fast, and not known for heavy armor.

So I'm temped to do this...
str: 16
dex: 13
Con: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16
Then bump up dex to 14 with another feat (maybe resilience) and wear medium armor. The problem is, mechanically, the 13 dex looks like total crap, ya know. Most paladins would have that 13 in con, and bump it up to 14 as soon as they can, but if it doesn't kill me, I'd like to run some dex.
I do at least get a initiative bonus which is nice...

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this or alternate suggestions which might fit better? I was also playing with the idea of having average dex and taking awareness if this route felt too risky. I just want the feel of a warrior a little more accustomed to skirmishing then tanking.

Currently I know my party will feature a druid of the moon, and a arcane trickster rogue. There will be a fourth member who is still a wildcard.

[Citan]

So my friend calls me all excited because he bought the new D&D. I switched to pathfinder since 4th, but I gotta say, I'm pretty pleased with the new, new direction 5th is taking...
Anyway, I read the players handbook a thousand times, and I worked real hard on my character's storyline and mechanics. All that good jazz. Now I got this Paladin I'm pretty excited about, and I'd like some help wrapping him up.
He is a human variant paladin of the noble background aiming for oath of the ancients (for flavor). He's taking polearm master out the gate as well.

Now, I don't like to be a strict power gamer, but I do keep an eye for these things, and try to come up with a decent balance. At this point I'm having a bit of a conflict with what I want to roleplay, and what I want mechanically. My paladin is cali****e, and these people are known for being pretty fast, and not known for heavy armor.

Hi! :)

Do you have any strong reason to build up your Strength? Such as, having a character background centered on chivalry, or wanting to go dual-hand heavy weapons?

Considering what you said, about your character being more of the agile type and not wearing heavy armor, couldn't you consider a sword & board build? Unless the shield is really out of place with your character fluff...

You'll find on this board a lenghty topic about merits and requirements of DEX-based Paladin, but the sure thing is that they are as viable as STR-Paladin.
It would mesh well with your Oath too, since it's a bit tank-oriented.
As such, you could put 16 in DEX and 13 in CON. Sure, it's a bit strange for a Paladin to have such mediocre strength, but it mechanically works.
The only problem, but the real problem, is that you're locked into pure Paladin (since multiclass requirements are STR & CHA 13). So if you want to keep even the slightest chance to multiclass it's a no-go.

If however you want to stay STR-based build, I'd personnally swap the DEX and CON, because I'd prefer the increased survivability and concentration over a slight better evasion against some spells. But it's a personal preference, no opinion on what would be the "best mechanical" choice.

Hope that helps ;)

[bid]

Polearm without heavy armor requires sacrifices, maybe reduce Cha for 16 14 12 8 10 14.

You cannot do better than AC 17 without a shield, compared to 21 for a tank. And you have the moon druid to soak up damage.

[sophontteks]

Hey thanks for the response. I'm aware of the dex builds, and I mulled around with them a bit, but they didn't quite click.
The dex build was my first consideration with a rapier, shield, and a whip. The problem is I'm not really aiming for tanky, but rather control. With the dex build I could take shield mastery, but the bonus push is strength-based, which really turned me off. I mean, I do have the whip, which can be handy with some of the ancients abilities, but overall I wasn't sure if it was bring the control I was hoping for.

The big turn on for strength is the polearms with polearm mastery. I can hit with my polearm as a reaction, and as part of this, I could entangle the opponent if ancients wrath or ensnaring strike was readied. Now that opponent is stuck out of attack range, and all my friends have advantage. On top of this I got this bonus attack between smites, and that crazy-awesome re-roll damage for two-handed weapons ability.

I dunno, tough choice here. I've found at least one other thread with another aspiring-paladin struggling with this exact same choice.

EDIT: I did misread the ancients ability, I thought it was a concentration spell based on an attack.
I guess maybe I can see the dex pally work. If I get lots of opportunity to push, both the druid and the thief will be pretty darn happy with me. Losing +3/4 on the push check vs. getting a free check. It could work.

[Lollerabe]

Sounds to me like you only find the fluff part of a dex build appealing, and I can relate - leather armor, rapier/whip wielding paladin? Nah not for me.

I am currently playing a paladin in a Calimshan setting, and I went with the specific trumps general, you might have been a nimble and fast child, but your years of training to become a champion of light clad in heavy armor forced you to forego your innate talent and rely on strength and bruteforce.

IF you wanna go ahead with the dex build you have to let go of the standard awesome feats - shieldmaster*, polearm master and GWM, they won't work (at least not to their full potential).

*Actually you could change it up a bit, take one lvl of rogue, get expertise in athletics (thus having the same + as a 16str paladin) and go shieldmaster - that way you would still have +6 athletics at lvl 5 and a +1d6 sneak on the first attack when they are prone. It could work.

Otherwise look into other feats instead of the weaponstyle feats. Mounted combatant is awesome once you have find steed, resilient Con is always good, and inspiring leader is the bees knees if no one else grabs it.

My honest opinion ? Drop dex, wield a polearm and be play the paladin you want to play. I'm not a min/maxer either but I hate playing something subpar just because it might add a bit more fluff.

Edit: Or talk you your DM? Maybe you can refluff a rapier to be a 1d8 finesse warspear? Then you could grab sentinel and be a dex phalanx dude? 300 style :)

[djreynolds]

I believe in concept vs optimization.

That said, if you have a cool concept but he sucks in combat, it will not be fun.
Why medium armor? For medium armor master down the line. For flavor.
Is the dexterity to multiclass with to rogue or ranger?
I like the oath of ancients, the "guy the druid calls when someone spoils the land"
Its not going to kill you to have a 14 dexterity. A higher charisma will bump up every save and help on concentration checks.
You don't need 20's in everything. But you will want a 20 in strength at some point. And a high charisma. There are bracers of dexterity around I'm sure the DM can provide them.

Listen you can't stealth in heavy armor, but their are some armor like breast plate that allows you to stealth without the need for MAM. You can take resilient in con and then next ASI at even them up 12 + 14. A 12 in con with proficiency and charisma save bonus at 6th is good enough. But you have to bump strength and charisma for saves. If you have pole-arm master, then sentinel should be you next feat at 4th. You'll get by with 16 strength for awhile. Let the moon druid shapechange and do the shoving.

[sophontteks]

I do not plan to multiclass, the dex is purely a flavor thing. The HP from less con isn't the end of the world what with reach and a crazed moon druid in front of me. There's a lot going to the polearm pally with my current team, but that concentration check...That sucks. Polearm pally would have less AC and less concentration and I think that may be too much if I want to cast any concentration spells at all.

So I went back to the dex pally. Shield, rapier, whip, longbow. I'm tempted to pick scimitar for flavor, but its a tiny 1d6 weapon (have they ever seen a scimitar?). I'm looking at shield master for a feat despite the less-then-optimal athletics check. I figure, the shield bash is a bonus action and against any serious threat I'd be casting spells with that bonus action, but when I don't wanna burn spells, I have a chance to push with every attack. The wording of the shield bash also hints that it doesn't need to be made after the attack, just as part of an attack action.

Alternatively, I could maybe pick up martial adept instead. On the plus side it doesn't use up a bonus attack, but on the downside I can only use it once per fight, and I only get to roll a d6. I also plan to pick up sentinel down the road as my final feat.

I just want to be able to help control the tempo of the fight more then tanking or DPSing. Ancient pally's have entangle abilities, and if I add some additional chances to knock targets prone or hold them in place I'd be pretty happy just watching everyone else steal the glory afterwards.

[Sigreid]

I think your build boils down to one question: how much are you going to miss 2hp per level over the game. I'll make the bold statement of not much. Especially with your self heals and some OA control spells.

[somehownotsingl]

My two cents: a melee paladin with no CON bonus makes me really, really nervous.

You're doing quite a few things to keep from getting hit hard (reach, CHA to saves eventually, resistance to spells via oath power eventually), but you're a melee character -- you are going to have many, many opportunities to get hit hard, even with the crazed bear druid in front of you. Those missing hypothetical HP will hurt you in my experience. Our paladin has 14 CON with a high AC and still gets bloodied a few times a day.

Also -- unless I missed someone mentioning this already -- a lot of the best pally spells require concentration. You'll have to boost CON at some point or risk losing some very helpful spells very quickly. One possibility is, of course, through various feat choices (some of which even give you advantage); a few of those have been mentioned on this thread. But even then, I think you'll want a CON of at least 14 at some point. Starting off at 10 puts you in a bit of a hole, in my opinion.

[djreynolds]

I do not plan to multiclass, the dex is purely a flavor thing. The HP from less con isn't the end of the world what with reach and a crazed moon druid in front of me. There's a lot going to the polearm pally with my current team, but that concentration check...That sucks. Polearm pally would have less AC and less concentration and I think that may be too much if I want to cast any concentration spells at all.

So I went back to the dex pally. Shield, rapier, whip, longbow. I'm tempted to pick scimitar for flavor, but its a tiny 1d6 weapon (have they ever seen a scimitar?). I'm looking at shield master for a feat despite the less-then-optimal athletics check. I figure, the shield bash is a bonus action and against any serious threat I'd be casting spells with that bonus action, but when I don't wanna burn spells, I have a chance to push with every attack. The wording of the shield bash also hints that it doesn't need to be made after the attack, just as part of an attack action.

Alternatively, I could maybe pick up martial adept instead. On the plus side it doesn't use up a bonus attack, but on the downside I can only use it once per fight, and I only get to roll a d6. I also plan to pick up sentinel down the road as my final feat.

I just want to be able to help control the tempo of the fight more then tanking or DPSing. Ancient pally's have entangle abilities, and if I add some additional chances to knock targets prone or hold them in place I'd be pretty happy just watching everyone else steal the glory afterwards.

You know what you want and the concept is cool, play it and post your build. Others may give advice for optimization and just take for what it is worth. Sometimes hit points are that important.

But IMO do not wait on sentinel as your last feat. Sentinel is a powerful feat and a real game changer and should be taken as early as possible. Stopping an enemy in his tracks can save allies and their hit points. Take it at 4th level or 8th, no later. Free AoO.

Shield master is great and yes, according to Mr Crawford can be used before you attack.

But if you have polearm master now, sentinel is your next feat above all else because they work in concert with each other. Each allows you to have additional chances to smite.

For me shield master and pole-arm master are separate builds that a fighter can acquire because he has 7 feats and 1 stat to max. You have 5 feats, 6 with variant, and must put ASI in strength and charisma. At 6th level you give save bonuses to your whole party based on your charisma.

But that is optimization over concept. Have fun.

[Squeak]

You know what you want and the concept is cool, play it and post your build. Others may give advice for optimization and just take for what it is worth. Sometimes hit points are that important.

...

For me shield master and pole-arm master are separate builds that a fighter can acquire because he has 7 feats and 1 stat to max. You have 5 feats, 6 with variant, and must put ASI in strength and charisma. At 6th level you give save bonuses to your whole party based on your charisma.

But that is optimization over concept. Have fun.

This is an important point to bear in mind for a Paladin.

Remember that the fighter has 7 feats and only needs to max CON and one of STR or DEX whereas a Paladin has 5 and really want to max either STR or DEX and CHR and also have a decent CON too. So feats are already very tight for a Paladin even without trying to have high scores in both STR and DEX.

On my Oath of the Ancients DEX Paladin I plan to max DEX and CHR with 14 CON and went Variant Human so that I can fit in two feats as well. My STR is 10, and I took Acrobatics as a skill to help with being grappled/knockdowns. Even so I am going to have less CON than any of the other fighter classes and if I am lucky, the same as the the Rogue, Cleric or Monk, which is not a particularly comfortable position to be in.

[djreynolds]

Sounds like a very cool build.

[sophontteks]

I sided on low con being too dangerous, and wasn't accurate with the background. Here's my dex paladin ;).
str-10
Dex-16
Con-13
Int-8
Wis-10
Cha- 16
Oath of the ancients
Noble (variant)
Shield Master
Rapier, whip, shield.

He is a little low on flavor, mechanically. Hes just a typical dex pally (if that could be considered typical), but it fits his background.

While a typical noble paladin would wear heavy armor, this guy is nobility with a desert background. This gives this cool mix of a fast, light fighting style combined with this noble swagger. I think this was worth losing awesome background skills.
Besides, I wrote my entire noble retinue their own back story ;).

Only thing I struggle with is taking perception or stealth, though I know I should take perception. I also gotta figure out when to get that second feat.

[bid]

While a typical noble paladin would wear heavy armor, this guy is nobility with a desert background. This gives this cool mix of a fast, light fighting style combined with this noble swagger. I think this was worth losing awesome background skills.
Besides, I wrote my entire noble retinue their own back story ;).
Did you adjust the noble background to survival + persuasion? That seems pretty thematic.

[sophontteks]

Did you adjust the noble background to survival + persuasion? That seems pretty thematic.
I would, but I read up on the Cala****e background and I think the standard version is a better fit, even though its terrible. Survival wouldn't work because the upper class Cali****e people are really into the life of comfort.

Fortunately, my retinue really has the whole survival bit covered. Noble looks weak on paper, but its alternate power giving three servants is pretty strong no matter how you cut it.
I have a guide who would be pseudo survival. She also uses ravens to communicate as part of this. I have a straight up servant who can't break out of his slave background. He would be useful for many mundane tasks like watching the horses and carrying loot. Finally I have a begrudging roguish halfling who can advise on any shady encounters and operate as a half-decent cook.

Even though they are mundane and useless in encounters, they cover a lot of my character's weaknesses. I'm sure their usefulness depends on the DM, but its not hard to imagine getting advantage on survival with the guide, and advantage on insight and sometimes perception with the halfling. I mean, they are with me to fill a non-combat role after all.

[Ardantis]

Since 5e came out, I secretly wanted to build a Str and Dex primary Fighter. Medium Armor, maybe some Stealth, but also a Great Weapon with maybe Polearm. He'd be a little fragile, but dang could he bring on the pain in a surprise round plus all the Dex goodies. He'd basically be a Commando like that Sneak Attacking heavy armor stealth prestige class from 3.5. Lead the party, charge in on unsuspecting foes, and stay in the mix.

I hope your Pally works the way you envision it.