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Talya
2007-05-21, 11:57 AM
There've been plenty of threads on making a fighter useful, so I'm thinking of easy ways to fix the monk class. I don't want to do anything complex like BWL did with his art of war abilities for the fighter, I'm considering trying an existing mechanic and adding it to the monk.

So...what if we used Tome of Battle? Now, I don't want to simply adapt swordsage to unarmed...i prefer the style of the monk to the swordsage, anyway.

What if, instead, you simply made the monk a fourth "martial adept" class, the weakest of them in martial adept abilities, but not cut any of their existing abilities at all? Perhaps just gave them very low maneuvers readied and learned progression, a pumped up "stance" progression (with perhaps eventually gaining the warblade's ability to use two stances at once), and an ability to recover maneuvers during an encounter?

I'd also like to go back to the 3.0 BAB progression for monk iterative attacks. (greater flurry = +15/+15/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3), but remove the ability to use two weapon fighting.

Indon
2007-05-21, 02:14 PM
While personally, I think the monk's a pretty solid class, an idea I've seen thrown around a couple times would be to simply make them a full BAB bonus class (So 20/15/10/5 at level 20).

Driderman
2007-05-21, 02:16 PM
I wasn't aware that the monk was broken...
:smallconfused:

Indon
2007-05-21, 02:17 PM
I wasn't aware that the monk was broken...
:smallconfused:

Generally, when people talk about tweaking monks, they're small tweaks and not argued about very much, so they're not really on the forum's proverbial radar.

Talya
2007-05-21, 04:18 PM
I wasn't aware that the monk was broken...
:smallconfused:

The common "wisdom" around here is the monk is the weakest of the core classes, and that's with all the melee classes already being substantially weaker than cleric/druid/wizard (and to a lesser extent, sorceror.) The monk is apparently the most broken of them all, and I'm thinking they'd approve a lot more than a simple full BAB progression to fix the monk.

goat
2007-05-21, 04:29 PM
The problem with monks is that they don't deal much in the way of damage.

And they don't do magic.

And they don't have lots of skill points.

And they don't have lots of HP.

And they're not Face-men.

And... well, they're capable at most things, but good at nothing.

Droodle
2007-05-21, 04:30 PM
In my humble opinion, all the monk needs is a full BAB progression and to have his unarmed attacks count as two handed weapons.

Talya
2007-05-21, 04:34 PM
In my humble opinion, all the monk needs is a full BAB progression and to have his unarmed attacks count as two handed weapons.

And the ability to enchant their fists without dipping into a PrC.

Jasdoif
2007-05-21, 04:49 PM
And the ability to enchant their fists without dipping into a PrC.You can enchant gauntlets. Unless your DM is both picky and inflexible you should be able to flurry with them, too, since a gauntlet attack is considered an unarmed strike except that it always does lethal damage. If nothing else, that makes a good case that getting the ability to imbue your own unarmed strikes as a class feature isn't a real balance issue at all, though you'd need to address how and if this would interact with gauntlets.

What would be really handy is adding Wisdom to damage on unarmed strikes and monk weapons, so you don't have to keep up your Strength. Mitigates the MAD somewhat.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-21, 05:02 PM
You can enchant gauntlets. Unless your DM is both picky and inflexible you should be able to flurry with them, too, since a gauntlet attack is considered an unarmed strike except that it always does lethal damage. If nothing else, that makes a good case that getting the ability to imbue your own unarmed strikes as a class feature isn't a real balance issue at all, though you'd need to address how and if this would interact with gauntlets.


... and consider the non-proficiency issue. :smalltongue:

Jasdoif
2007-05-21, 05:10 PM
... and consider the non-proficiency issue. :smalltongue:...yes. Add in an explicit proficiency for unarmed strikes, just to avoid silly "RAW vs common sense" arguments. It's a more interesting argument with gauntlets, however :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2007-05-21, 05:19 PM
You can enchant gauntlets.


Except then you'd do the damage of a "gauntlet" rather than your own unarmed progression.

What a monk at 20 needs is for their entire body (from toe to forehead) to be a 2d10 +5 Holy weapon of wounding.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-21, 05:19 PM
...yes. Add in an explicit proficiency for unarmed strikes, just to avoid silly "RAW vs common sense" arguments. It's a more interesting argument with gauntlets, however :smallbiggrin:

I was referring to the gauntlets :smallwink:



Using wisdom for something is a good way of rebuilding the monk.
It could replace str entirely for almost all combat purposes and the monk might actually become a decent grappler/tripper.

Talya
2007-05-21, 05:20 PM
It could replace str entirely for almost all combat purposes and the monk might actually become a decent grappler/tripper.

A goliath monk is a terrifying grappler at only +1 LA.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-21, 05:24 PM
Except then you'd do the damage of a "gauntlet" rather than your own unarmed progression.


The only function a gauntlet has is to turn non-lethal damage into lethal.


Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.


A goliath monk is a terrifying grappler at only +1 LA.

At low levels or against casters, yes.

TheThan
2007-05-21, 05:40 PM
I like the idea of giving the monk “combat styles” as suggested Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les)

A full BAB progression and maybe some other styles other than what’s listed would go along way in making the monk better.

Diggorian
2007-05-21, 05:43 PM
I changed Monks in my campaign to accentuate their purity of form, renaming the class Ascetic (http://landsofaltear.wikispaces.com/Ascetics).

Hope it helps, if not I'm open to suggestion as the camp hasnt started.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-21, 05:47 PM
in this forum anything that isn't a spell caster, or even a "good" one, stinks.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-21, 05:50 PM
Not true.

Monks are just pretty sucky all around. Fighters are as well. And Samurai. And Ninjas. Bards are ok and even excellent with proper planning.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-21, 05:56 PM
in this forum anything that isn't a spell caster, or even a "good" one, stinks.

That is a different debate really.

Talya is trying to make mechanic changes to the monk to improve the class' ability, but that does not mean we need to discuss whether wizards are more powerful.
(At least I hope that won't be necessary.)

One could of course still disagree with the premise that monk's need fixing, but I cannot see if that is what you are trying to do in your post?

Talya
2007-05-21, 06:05 PM
thing is, I love the "flavor" of the monk class, from 1 all the way up to 20, but it doesn't multiclass well, and while one of the hardest classes in the game to kill, it doesn't really offer much threat to the enemy.

MAD is also a big problem for monks.

Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom are all important, and intelligence and charisma aren't entirely without value for them either. (Intelligence because they have a lot of class skills, charisma only really useful for certain exalted feats and/or for roleplaying reasons.)

Fighters need all of two skills: strength and constitution. Moderate amounts of dexterity can be useful, wisdom for will saves, but it won't be enough to save them anyway.

A wizard needs Intelligence and thats about it. (Although constitution and dexterity are important if they want to survive long enough to "be batman.")

Druids can get by on Wisdom and natural spell.

We could continue....but monks, more than any other class, benefit from very high ability score totals. A fighter at all 10s and 12s is better than a monk with the same. A wizard can get by so long as he has 14 or better intelligence to start.

A monk with 18s for strength, dexterity, constitution, and wisdom, will be equalled by a fighter with 18s for strength and constitution and 10's for everything else.

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-21, 06:09 PM
Personally, I would also make the flurry of blowas ablity a standard action, to go along with the whole skirmisher outlook. Probably alter it so that it uses the normal base attack progression, plus maybe a -2 throughout. Definatly needs more work, but now the main ablity and main theme don't conflict. Plus, make abundant step similar to the Horizen walkers ablity(Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds), and take away their random ablitites.

Talya
2007-05-21, 06:11 PM
Personally, I would also make the flurry of blowas ablity a standard action, to go along with the whole skirmisher outlook. Probably alter it so that it uses the normal base attack progression, plus maybe a -2 throughout. Definatly needs more work, but now the main ablity and main theme don't conflict. Plus, make abundant step similar to the Horizen walkers ablity(Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds), and take away their random ablitites.

Random abilities?

JaronK
2007-05-21, 06:12 PM
First off, make Monks proficient with unarmed strikes.

Hey, if you're changing the rules anyway, you might as well throw that one in there... it's obviously a mistake that they're not, but there you go.

Full BAB would help a lot, as would some ability to get around DR. Perhaps give them Ki Strike: Cold Iron would help a bit.

Another option that would work great would be to give them the Kensai's ability, but only on their fists. That would solve a lot of issues.

JaronK

Talya
2007-05-21, 06:14 PM
Perhaps give them Ki Strike: Cold Iron would help a bit.

At 20, Ki Strike should include all special materials, as well as good (or evil if appropriate), and lawful.


Another option that would work great would be to give them the Kensai's ability, but only on their fists. That would solve a lot of issues.


I really like that, although I'd change it to apply to their entire body, not just individual fists. (Fists, feet, knees, forehead, elbows, you name it.)

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-21, 06:18 PM
"No, no, no. That finger is flame burst. This one is ghost touch. Remember, my left hand is the voral one. The right is the keen one. And my left foot is dragons bane. My right is elf bane, oh wait. Elf Bane is my head"

That could be very funny in game.

Get all the monk special abilities to go off Charisma and play an 8 Wisdom monk with each finger enchanted as a different bane weapon.

"Now which finger do I poke goblins with again?"

JaronK
2007-05-21, 06:21 PM
Pfft. :smallsmile: I was more thinking that the entire monk's body would be enchanted as one thing. Obviously, the flaming enchantment would be worlds of fun (no, I didn't bring a torch, why do you ask?).

You could just start the Kensai progression at level 11, and remove the increased cost for multiple body parts being used, and go with that.

Another option would be to give monks access to one martial adept school, as well as a small number of manuevers.

JaronK

Talya
2007-05-21, 06:22 PM
Pfft. :smallsmile: I was more thinking that the entire monk's body would be enchanted as one thing.

Me too.


Another option would be to give monks access to one martial adept school, as well as a small number of manuevers.


This is the route I was thinking of taking in my initial post.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-21, 06:41 PM
If you wish to give the monk maneuvers, why not simply use the unarmed Swordsage adaptation? The Swordsage is nigh-identical to the Monk in terms of thematics; the only difference is the Sublime Way. If you are adding the Sublime Way to a monk, are you not simply creating a Swordsage with a different set of class abilities?

ocato
2007-05-21, 06:48 PM
Well, I would also say that getting magical gauntlets should allow you to 'enchant' your unarmed strikes. Or a ring/amulet if you think magic gauntlets shouldn't make your kicks magical. That's really a matter of arguement, but I'd saying using ring slots for 'weapon' enchantments is a bit of a loss for them. I mean, gauntlets of ogre strength don't limit your strength to your arms. You can jump higher now, can't you? Give them full BAB as well, obviously. The fact that their unarmed strike damage scales on its own isn't bad, I'd say, but this is a pretty rough MAD class, to be certain. I would like to see a form of the feat Kung-Fu Genius that allows you to maybe use your strength for your AC (maybe overpowering enemy's arms as they swing at you) or Constitution (having the purity of body to ignore attacks as if you had armor on) or somesuch. I say feat because Wisdom is good flavorwise. I don't want to force people's monks to be bruisers. I could support ki strike causing unarmed attacks to function as magical for more reasons than Damage Reduction. I think a high level monk ought to be able to make a lawful (axiomatic?) attack. Monks aren't really my bag, I'm afraid, but I support giving them some love. They can do some great things, but they get one-trick-ponied into fighting humanoids. I feel silly punching a dragon.

Talya
2007-05-21, 06:49 PM
If you wish to give the monk maneuvers, why not simply use the unarmed Swordsage adaptation? The Swordsage is nigh-identical to the Monk in terms of thematics; the only difference is the Sublime Way. If you are adding the Sublime Way to a monk, are you not simply creating a Swordsage with a different set of class abilities?


So...what if we used Tome of Battle? Now, I don't want to simply adapt swordsage to unarmed...i prefer the style of the monk to the swordsage, anyway.


I like the monk class abilities...all of them. I just realize there aren't enough to make them matter. Applying a weak addition of the Sublime Way to the monk keeps the monk abilities in place.

my_evil_twin
2007-05-21, 06:55 PM
Needing strength is a big problem for the monk, practically and thematically.

Your average kung-fu action hero looks like he has maybe 12 strength. They're not weak, but their damage dealing potential clearly comes from elsewhere.

I think what we need is a way to downplay strength in relation to a monk's damage output without making it irrelevant. Here's a series of changes I have in mind, see what you think:

1. All monks get Weapon Finesse for free at first level.
2. Monks add their wisdom bonus, as well as their strength bonus, to hit and damage rolls.
3. Monks get an unclassed bonus to unarmed damage (like the AC bonus) equal to 1/4 their class level.

Let's take an example monk (from the PHB2), with str 13, dex 15, wis 14, and imagine him at 10th level. He'll have two ability increases, which are probably best put into str and dex, so he has str 14 and dex 16. By the RAW his unarmed strike will have +9 to hit, and deal 1d10+1 damage. Mr. Sword-and-board can tell Mr. Monk to sit down before he hurts himself.

The same monk, with these changes, can put his ability increases into wis, so at level 10 he has str 13, dex 15, wis 16. His unarmed strike will have +12 to hit, and deal 1d10+6 damage. At this rate, he's not outshining the fighter, but he's doing damage worth paying attention to.

How does that sound?

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-21, 07:19 PM
Random Ablilities like speaking all languages and such. The ones that make the monk look better than he actually is by filling up the special ablities colum. The ones that are really just flavor, or could be substantial, if the number of uses weren't counted in weaks, and the DC way to low.

AngelAndrius
2007-05-21, 07:32 PM
There are some really great ways to make monks great and awesome. take Vow of Poverty and Intuitive Attack. Two great feats that make the monk nigh unbeatable and really fun to play. Add Touch of Golden Ice and you are deadly. I know this is just one option, and it doesn't cover all the bases but it certainly is an option. All the above was from the BoED.

Also, an idea I have used before.

I gerstalted monk and soulknife for 12 levels and it was awesome, we just allowed me to enhance my fists and upgraded my damage by four monk levels when i had my 'knife' out. Perhaps think of a mechanic like that? So you're not the human torch the whole time :smallamused:

Well haveing played both these options, and monk being my favorite core class, I can tell you that I certainly had fun and definitely was not behind in power.

JaronK
2007-05-21, 08:10 PM
There are some really great ways to make monks great and awesome. take Vow of Poverty and Intuitive Attack. Two great feats that make the monk nigh unbeatable and really fun to play. Add Touch of Golden Ice and you are deadly. I know this is just one option, and it doesn't cover all the bases but it certainly is an option. All the above was from the BoED.

IT'S A TRAP! Seriously. Look at what you can get with Vow of Poverty... and then look at what you can get using the normal wealth by level guidelines. In the end, the VoP monk ends up weaker, and a lot less flexible due to being unable to fly or bypass most forms of DR. Vow of Poverty is for druids who don't want to wear gear. For monks, it means burning two feats to become weaker. It would be better if there were a lot of good exaulted feats, but there aren't.

JaronK

Talya
2007-05-21, 09:08 PM
IT'S A TRAP! Seriously. Look at what you can get with Vow of Poverty... and then look at what you can get using the normal wealth by level guidelines. In the end, the VoP monk ends up weaker,
No, no you can't, for pure combat abilities. People keep saying the monk's main problem is its inability to do damage. A VoP monk ends up doing far more damage than a monk ever can, otherwise, unless you houserule in some fist enchantments, and even then it would be close. 2d10+5+2d6 is NOT going to be overcome by a monk using equipment. They also end up with higher armor class without going WAY beyond wealth by level guidelines.

The biggest thing they lose is flexibility, with gadgets that let them fly and the like.

Sir Giacomo
2007-05-22, 08:43 AM
Hi all,

more info can be gained from a similar, older thread here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37762

I would guess that the monk class is quite fine and does not need fixing. Its specialty is being the best non-casting class vs casters of all kind. Combined with an AMF effect it is awesome.

- Giacomo

Talya
2007-05-22, 08:58 AM
Hi all,

more info can be gained from a similar, older thread here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37762

I would guess that the monk class is quite fine and does not need fixing. Its specialty is being the best non-casting class vs casters of all kind. Combined with an AMF effect it is awesome.

- Giacomo


Lesser Aasimar monk (LA+0) with the outsider wings feat and Vow of Poverty pretty much does overcome most of the issues people have with monks, it's true...

Sir Giacomo
2007-05-22, 09:15 AM
Lesser Aasimar monk (LA+0) with the outsider wings feat and Vow of Poverty pretty much does overcome most of the issues people have with monks, it's true...

In fact, magic items also fill most gaps and problems that non-casters have vs casters.

- Giacomo

Corncracker
2007-05-22, 09:15 AM
Lesser Aasimar monk (LA+0) with the outsider wings feat and Vow of Poverty pretty much does overcome most of the issues people have with monks, it's true...

What book is Lesser Aasimar in?

Funkyodor
2007-05-22, 09:21 AM
I've been thinking about the weapon problems that monks seem to have. Monks attack with their entire bodies, monks belt gives a normal person minor monk lvl's for unarmed damage. How about just treat a monks belt as an enchantable weapon for monks? +1 monks belt, add a couple grand to the cost. +3 Holy flaming belt? Add alot more. You could have a couple of different belts for different foes.

Indon
2007-05-22, 09:59 AM
IT'S A TRAP! Seriously. Look at what you can get with Vow of Poverty... and then look at what you can get using the normal wealth by level guidelines. In the end, the VoP monk ends up weaker, and a lot less flexible due to being unable to fly or bypass most forms of DR. Vow of Poverty is for druids who don't want to wear gear. For monks, it means burning two feats to become weaker. It would be better if there were a lot of good exaulted feats, but there aren't.

JaronK

A monk who can reliably count on being buffed with Polymorph in combat would have little reason not to take Vow of Poverty. If anything, it's a little cheesy since, hey, they have no gear to subsume into their new form.

Monks really benefit more from being polymorphed (particularly into larger forms) than any other core class.

AngelAndrius
2007-05-22, 03:53 PM
Lesser Aasimar monk (LA+0) with the outsider wings feat and Vow of Poverty pretty much does overcome most of the issues people have with monks, it's true...

One tiny problem with that make-up. In order to get the wings, you need celestial bloodline, a feat that requires you to be able to cast arcane spells without preparation. I looked at VoP and nothing in there allows you to do that.

So you'd have to multi-class

which is sort of counter-intuitive to fixing the monk class :smallamused:

Khantalas
2007-05-22, 03:59 PM
Umm... no, you don't?

You just need one level in monk to qualify for Celestial Bloodline, which has all good saves already.

AngelAndrius
2007-05-22, 04:08 PM
Celestial Bloodline

Type: Bloodline
Sources: Dragon #311
Dungeon Compendium Vol. 1

One of your distant ancestors was a good outsider. The characteristics you display might depend in part on the kind of celestial heritage you have.
Descendants of devas or archons tend to be very decisive - quick to judge and quick to act. Characters with couatl or lillend ancestors are often physically beautiful, and they tend to favor snakes and other reptiles as familiars. Titan-blooded descendants are usually taller than average for their races, and they usually have boisterous personalities. The most common sources of celestial blood, however, are minor good gods or the avatars of more powerful beings. A sorcerer descended from such a line can be very passionate about his faith, whether he follows his ancestor's religion or not.
Characters with the Celestial Bloodline feat are usually good-aligned, although not always. Their yearn for adventure stems either from a desire to aid others, an innate need to combat evil, or both. As such, celestial-blooded characters tend to focus their spell selections on good- or neutral-aligned spells that aid others.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.
Benefit: Your ancestry gives you a bonus spell known at each spell level, starting at 1st, according to the following list.

* 1. Protection from evil
* 2. Daylight
* 3. Magic circle against evil
* 4. Rainbow pattern
* 5. Dismissal
* 6. Guards and wards
* 7. Sequester
* 8. Sunburst
* 9. Summon monster IX (good outsiders only)


Special: If a character takes this feat any time after 1st level and has already learned any of the spells on this list in the class that granted her access to this feat, she gains no additional spells known at those spell levels. This restriction does not apply if she learned any of these spells as a member of another spellcasting class.
Characters with this feat cannot learn or cast spells with the evil descriptor, and all such spells are removed from the spell lists of all their spellcasting classes.

Khantalas
2007-05-22, 04:10 PM
Oh.

I'm looking at the Celestial Bloodline from Races of Faerun. You know, the book with Outsider Wings.

Of course, the two feats have nothing to do with each other, crunch wise.

V OK, I get it. Now, go here (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/feats_a-m.htm). Get down to the line where it says Celestial Bloodline. Note that the feat Outsider Wings is from the same book as that. A book won't reference material that isn't published yet. However, it will reference itself.

AngelAndrius
2007-05-22, 04:13 PM
lol sorry for the double post, weird compy thing.

The feat I have is the only one I know of.

Jasdoif
2007-05-23, 12:22 AM
I was referring to the gauntlets :smallwink: The irony is that if you don't consider monks proficient with unarmed strikes, then it doesn't matter. The nonproficiency penalty on the gauntlets is the same as that on unarmed strikes; and if you pick up simple weapon proficiency for your unarmed strikes you're proficient with the also-simple gauntlets :smalltongue:



Anyway...I've been thinking about this off and on, and here's what I've come up with.

Giving them full BAB is basically mandatory. They look to be front-liners, what with the improvement to the melee-ranged unarmed strikes.

Adding Wisdom to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and monk weapons will be good for reducing MAD. Probably cap the bonus at half your monk level, to avoid solely taking the class as a one level dip. Monk weapons is handy because it includes shuriken, if you simply can't close to melee you can at least flurry with shuriken.

Add a soulknife-ish special ability improvement for all unarmed strikes. It's nice because it's free, and it's changeable given time. (and you can carry various monk weapons if that time is something you don't think you'll have)

Wholeness of body is pretty weak. Let's make it...2+Wis (minimum 1) per monk level.

Diamond Soul is pretty sad, there's tons of ways to ignore or reduce SR. So at level 13, we'll also give the monk a partial flurry ability: As a standard action, a monk can make an attack with an unarmed strike or monk weapon, followed by two unarmed strikes, all at her base attack bonus. Like if you added flurry on top of a single attack. (Probably needs tweaking....)

Quivering Palm...I dunno. Once per week is a pretty odd limit, but I'm not sure what could be done with it.

Ki Strike (adamantine)...let's change this. A monk's unarmed attacks can be treated as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Only one is activate at a time, and it takes several hours of mediation to switch. The monk does not take a penalty on damage when using the silver property, and the monk retains the (normally adamantine-only) ability to ignore hardness of 20 or less with all properties.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon is odd, but I can't think of anything else so let's leave it....

Perfect Self is questionable. I mean, by level 20 most opponents have magic weapons or the ability to overcome that damage reduction. So let's add another type of DR: One that's overcome by whatever properties aren't being used on ki strike. So if you have ki strike (adamantine) active, you gain DR 10/cold iron or silver. If you have ki strike (cold iron) active, you gain DR 10/adamantine or silver.

Orzel
2007-05-23, 05:49 AM
I think I'm the only one against full BAB for monks. In my mind they are a "skills class" first and skills classes get 3/4 BAB. The only core skills class that should get full BAB is the ranger because they are equally "warrior class" and "Skills class".


Here's 2 of my ideas

Give them an ability that so if a monk moves at least 15' (20' for large, 10' for small) they can make a full attack the same round.

Instead of unarmed damage increasinf, as the monk levels they gain access to special monk only unarmed weapons based on their monk level. They gain a new unarmed attack every 2 levels. A level 8 medium monk could grab the 1d10 basic strike, the 1d4 icy strike, 1d4 fiery strike, the 1d6 +2 enhancement strike, or the 1d6 stike with 10' reach. An level 10 he could grab another of the 5.

Talya
2007-05-23, 07:30 AM
I think I'm the only one against full BAB for monks. In my mind they are a "skills class" first and skills classes get 3/4 BAB.

Skills class? They have the same skill ranks as barbarian, and fewer than a ranger.

Talya
2007-05-23, 07:32 AM
In fact, magic items also fill most gaps and problems that non-casters have vs casters.

- Giacomo

Magic items actually CANNOT equal vow of poverty, short of epic levels. Find me that +8 wisdom item otherwise?

AngelAndrius
2007-05-23, 04:40 PM
Giving them full BAB is basically mandatory. They look to be front-liners, what with the improvement to the melee-ranged unarmed strikes.

Adding Wisdom to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and monk weapons will be good for reducing MAD. Probably cap the bonus at half your monk level, to avoid solely taking the class as a one level dip. Monk weapons is handy because it includes shuriken, if you simply can't close to melee you can at least flurry with shuriken.

Add a soulknife-ish special ability improvement for all unarmed strikes. It's nice because it's free, and it's changeable given time. (and you can carry various monk weapons if that time is something you don't think you'll have)

Wholeness of body is pretty weak. Let's make it...2+Wis (minimum 1) per monk level.

Diamond Soul is pretty sad, there's tons of ways to ignore or reduce SR. So at level 13, we'll also give the monk a partial flurry ability: As a standard action, a monk can make an attack with an unarmed strike or monk weapon, followed by two unarmed strikes, all at her base attack bonus. Like if you added flurry on top of a single attack. (Probably needs tweaking....)

Quivering Palm...I dunno. Once per week is a pretty odd limit, but I'm not sure what could be done with it.

Ki Strike (adamantine)...let's change this. A monk's unarmed attacks can be treated as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Only one is activate at a time, and it takes several hours of mediation to switch. The monk does not take a penalty on damage when using the silver property, and the monk retains the (normally adamantine-only) ability to ignore hardness of 20 or less with all properties.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon is odd, but I can't think of anything else so let's leave it....

Perfect Self is questionable. I mean, by level 20 most opponents have magic weapons or the ability to overcome that damage reduction. So let's add another type of DR: One that's overcome by whatever properties aren't being used on ki strike. So if you have ki strike (adamantine) active, you gain DR 10/cold iron or silver. If you have ki strike (cold iron) active, you gain DR 10/adamantine or silver.

capping the bonus was a great idea. it really helped to balance that power.

adding your wisdom mod each level is a little bit rediculous. say by this level you have a wis mod +3, that's five hit points every level, at 7, 35hp. statistically, you won't even averge 5 on your roll for HP. remember, we're trying to fix the monk, not break it. I would make it just 3 hp per monk level, 21 is much less rediculous.

your ki strike and dr sound good to me.

but if anything is weird to me and out of place with the class, its abundant step and empty body. i mean, what the heck?

Indon
2007-05-23, 04:44 PM
Magic items actually CANNOT equal vow of poverty, short of epic levels. Find me that +8 wisdom item otherwise?

Well, there are many things that magic items can do that VoP can't. Magic items provide significantly increased versatility and capability, as opposed to simply power in the form of enhancement bonuses.

But, I feel there's upsides and downsides.

Jasdoif
2007-05-23, 04:52 PM
adding your wisdom mod each level is a little bit rediculous. say by this level you have a wis mod +3, that's five hit points every level, at 7, 35hp. statistically, you won't even averge 5 on your roll for HP. remember, we're trying to fix the monk, not break it. I would make it just 3 hp per monk level, 21 is much less rediculous.A paladin's lay on hands gets Charisma bonus times paladin level, and can be used to heal yourself, heal your allies, or damage undead. Given that, I didn't think 2 + Wis per level for only healing yourself was unreasonable.

Indon
2007-05-23, 05:09 PM
A paladin's lay on hands gets Charisma bonus times paladin level, and can be used to heal yourself, heal your allies, or damage undead. Given that, I didn't think 2 + Wis per level for only healing yourself was unreasonable.

Well, if you also move offensive combat over to Wisdom (applying wis instead of str to hit or damage), you decrease the monk's multiple attribute dependency; both Monks and Paladins have this, but if a Monk ends up with less, he'll end up having a higher Wisdom. So even just Wis per level ends up being more potent than Lay on Hands, in terms of raw HP per day.

Talya
2007-05-23, 05:10 PM
Well, if you also move offensive combat over to Wisdom (applying wis instead of str to hit or damage), you decrease the monk's multiple attribute dependency; both Monks and Paladins have this, but if a Monk ends up with less, he'll end up having a higher Wisdom. So even just Wis per level ends up being more potent than Lay on Hands, in terms of raw HP per day.

All other things being equal, a self-only ability should be more potent than a similar ability that can be used on others as well.

Jasdoif
2007-05-23, 05:22 PM
Well, if you also move offensive combat over to Wisdom (applying wis instead of str to hit or damage), you decrease the monk's multiple attribute dependency; both Monks and Paladins have this, but if a Monk ends up with less, he'll end up having a higher Wisdom. So even just Wis per level ends up being more potent than Lay on Hands, in terms of raw HP per day.With Divine Grace, a paladin gets a great benefit out of a high Charisma. Also, we're not fixing the Paladin here :smalltongue:

I don't see precisely what the problem is. Wholeness of Body is a standard action; using it in combat means the monk isn't doing any of that smacking they're supposed to be doing and are probably getting hurt more as a result, although it may be extra handy in the right situation (like if you have Diehard and you're into negative HP). Using it out of combat means the cleric doesn't need to blow healing spells on you.

A monk is severely hampered by using armor or a shield, and thus can't take good advantage of all the cool magic armor enhancements, like heavy fortification. I don't feel hit point recovery is a bad tradeoff for this.

Jerthanis
2007-05-23, 06:42 PM
One of the things I've always sort of seen as the Monk's "thing" in addition to mobility and defense was the stunning fist ability. Stunning fist as written can be unexpectedly good, with its DC being 10 + 1/2 character lvl + wisdom being almost close to comperable to a wizard's highest level spell DCs if the Monk has really good wisdom. Stun effects cause people to drop whatever they're holding and lose their dex bonus in addition to being unable to take actions can be just amazing. Coupled with its later save-or-die ability (which should definately be 1/day or even scale up to 2 or 3/day by the end) I've always thought that the way to make Monks more unique and powerful would be the ability to mix a plethora of save-ors into its standard melee attacks.

We're all probably familiar with the idea of pressure points, and how experts can strike them to disable people without exerting overt amounts of force. I've intended to write up a list of bonus feats to this end, allowing Monks to strike someone and reduce their movement speed, and then perhaps allow that ability to act like a slow effect at later levels. Perhaps also an attack that sickens for, say, 5 rounds, and then if hit by the same attack (and fail the save again) they're nauseated for 5 rounds. I'd say that also these abilities should include Will saves as well as Fortitude saves, to facilitate the monk being useful against a slightly wider variety of enemy. Also, to help the problem of striking very well armored monsters and opponents, the ability to have the attack deal no damage, but act as a touch attack a certain number of times per day would help their lower base attack problems.

If Monks could do such things, set up some enemies for sneak attacks with stun, disable some attackers with slow, be able to nauseate others, disabling them almost completely, and be able to do this all with a decent chance of success and you'll have a worthwhile melee class that preserves its uniqueness and even gains something that nothing else (other than hexblades) has. Also, it'll divert the Monk's focus away from dealing raw damage (where it's always going to be hard to believe that any fist, no matter how well trained will outdamage a sword) and into a specialized melee debuff type.

I might try writing some feats up like this and put them up for comment in the Homebrew section if I get around to it.

EvilElitest
2007-05-23, 07:04 PM
"No, no, no. That finger is flame burst. This one is ghost touch. Remember, my left hand is the voral one. The right is the keen one. And my left foot is dragons bane. My right is elf bane, oh wait. Elf Bane is my head"

That could be very funny in game.

Get all the monk special abilities to go off Charisma and play an 8 Wisdom monk with each finger enchanted as a different bane weapon.

"Now which finger do I poke goblins with again?"

Ok, i was literally rolling on the ground for that one
from,
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