Gaining CR levels for your followers.

[Blood of Gaea]

Bit of cheese to gain at least one CR 4 follower a day.

You need two casters, one who can cast Animal Shapes, and one who can cast True Polymorph.

First you need a group of followers of CR 0-3 each. If you don't have any, you can use a 9th level Mass Suggestion to gain some for a year. However you can't order them to do something that would be extremely dangerous to themselves, so gaining loyal ones is better.

Second, the first caster will change them into Elephants with Animal Shape, this makes them a CR 4.

Then True Polymorph them into a better CR 4 monster, of any type, hold them spell for an hour, and it is a permanent change.

If you used Mass Suggestion to gain followers, I'd recommend Succubi. They can be sent to charm and kiss people to death, without putting them self in serious danger.


Thoughts? Did I miss a rule that prevents this? And of course most DM's would likely smack you with the "no" stick.

[Meepo_]

Bit of cheese to gain at least one CR 4 follower a day.

You need two casters, one who can cast Animal Shapes, and one who can cast True Polymorph.

First you need a group of followers of CR 0-3 each. If you don't have any, you can use a 9th level Mass Suggestion to gain some for a year. However you can't order them to do something that would be extremely dangerous to themselves, so gaining loyal ones is better.

Second, the first caster will change them into Elephants with Animal Shape, this makes them a CR 4.

Then True Polymorph them into a better CR 4 monster, of any type, hold them spell for an hour, and it is a permanent change.

If you used Mass Suggestion to gain followers, I'd recommend Succubi. They can be sent to charm and kiss people to death, without putting them self in serious danger.


Thoughts? Did I miss a rule that prevents this? And of course most DM's would likely smack you with the "no" stick.

Looks like this works, provided you can find an endless supply of followers willing to be turned into elephants and then to stand still for an hour while you hocus pocus them into black pudding.

[Blood of Gaea]

Looks like this works, provided you can find an endless supply of followers willing to be turned into elephants and then to stand still for an hour while you hocus pocus them into black pudding.

Ah, but that is what Mass Suggestion is for, you supplement your truly loyal followers with it. You just Mass Suggestion them for a year to follow your commands, then turn them into a Succubus. Then send them as assassins, or just to charm people. It wouldn't be extremely dangerous, so Mass Suggestion works.

Heck, they would even be infiltrators. Imagine doing this to the Kings adviser, who then charms him, and then shapeshift into looking like how they did as a human.

[Meepo_]

Ah, but that is what Mass Suggestion is for, you supplement your truly loyal followers with it. You just Mass Suggestion them for a year to follow your commands, then turn them into a Succubus. Then send them as assassins, or just to charm people. It wouldn't be extremely dangerous, so Mass Suggestion works.

Heck, they would even be infiltrators. Imagine doing this to the Kings adviser, who then charms him, and then shapeshift into looking like how they did as a human.

That would certainly be an interesting way to frustrate your DM. Might piss of some infernal overlords that you're doing their job better than they can. Of course you have to be level 17 to do this stuff, and compared to earlier versions this barely qualifies as cheese.

[Blood of Gaea]

That would certainly be an interesting way to frustrate your DM. Might piss of some infernal overlords that you're doing their job better than they can. Of course you have to be level 17 to do this stuff, and compared to earlier versions this barely qualifies as cheese.

Oh yeah of course, and you actually need two casters, or to use a Simulacrum, because Animal Shapes and True Polymorph are concentration spells.

The reason I call it cheese is more because it's clearly not intended, more then it's supremely overpowered.

[NNescio]

Ah, but that is what Mass Suggestion is for, you supplement your truly loyal followers with it. You just Mass Suggestion them for a year to follow your commands, then turn them into a Succubus. Then send them as assassins, or just to charm people. It wouldn't be extremely dangerous, so Mass Suggestion works.

Heck, they would even be infiltrators. Imagine doing this to the Kings adviser, who then charms him, and then shapeshift into looking like how they did as a human.

Suggestion/Mass Suggestion isn't a Dominate effect, despite what Vaarsuvius' use of it may have lead you to believe.

A course of activity. That's it. And it has to be reasonable, 'though there's signficant leeway (like the provided example of making a Knight give away his horse).

"I suggest that you follow every single command of mine" is way, way beyond the power of this spell, both RAW and RAI.

[JoeJ]

Oh yeah of course, and you actually need two casters, or to use a Simulacrum, because Animal Shapes and True Polymorph are concentration spells.

The reason I call it cheese is more because it's clearly not intended, more then it's supremely overpowered.

You'd have to be a bard to do it with Simulacrum. No other class gets access to all the required spells. And a simulacrum can't recover spell slots, so they could only help you once and then you'd need a new simulacrum.

It's a little cheesy, and I doubt that it's RAI to base True Polymorph off the CR of a spell effect rather than of the original creature. It also seems like an awful lot of work for little gain, since even with two casters you can only do this once per day.

[Blood of Gaea]

You'd have to be a bard to do it with Simulacrum. No other class gets access to all the required spells. And a simulacrum can't recover spell slots, so they could only help you once and then you'd need a new simulacrum.

It's a little cheesy, and I doubt that it's RAI to base True Polymorph off the CR of a spell effect rather than of the original creature. It also seems like an awful lot of work for little gain, since even with two casters you can only do this once per day.

As a Wizard you can, but you either need the Epic boon for a second 9th level slot, or to make the Simulacrum without a Wish.

1. Make a Simulacrum.
2. Cast Mass Suggestion on your target, if it is needed.
3. Long Rest.
4. Simulacrum uses Wish for Animal Shapes.
5. Use True Polymorph.

This method is obviously less efficient, because it will cost you 1,500gp every time you do it.


Suggestion/Mass Suggestion isn't a Dominate effect, despite what Vaarsuvius' use of it may have lead you to believe.

A course of activity. That's it. And it has to be reasonable, 'though there's signficant leeway (like the provided example of making a Knight give away his horse).

"I suggest that you follow every single command of mine" is way, way beyond the power of this spell, both RAW and RAI.

If you choose to rule it that way, that is fine. Though it would still work for an assassination, by telling the Succubus to charm then kiss "insert name".

If you think that is too much. Then "Charm (insert name).". Then do it again "When (insert name) is charmed by you use your kiss until they die.".

You could also do other things by stacking Mass Suggestion that way too, by casting it every day, you can still add enough effects in to get a lot of use out of it

Of course, this is much easier and will go more smoothly, if they are just loyal to you in the first place.

[JoeJ]

As a Wizard you can, but you either need the Epic boon for a second 9th level slot, or to make the Simulacrum without a Wish.

1. Make a Simulacrum.
2. Cast Mass Suggestion on your target, if it is needed.
3. Long Rest.
4. Simulacrum uses Wish for Animal Shapes.
5. Use True Polymorph.

This method is obviously less efficient, because it will cost you 1,500gp every time you do it.

You could do that but, just for comparison purposes, 1460 gp will hire two mercenary soldiers for a year, and that doesn't require 12 hours of casting time or an epic boon.

[NNescio]

As a Wizard you can, but you either need the Epic boon for a second 9th level slot, or to make the Simulacrum without a Wish.

1. Make a Simulacrum.
2. Cast Mass Suggestion on your target, if it is needed.
3. Long Rest.
4. Simulacrum uses Wish for Animal Shapes.
5. Use True Polymorph.

This method is obviously less efficient, because it will cost you 1,500gp every time you do it.

If you're going to (ab)use Simulacrum and Wish, you might as well just daisy-chain Simulacrums instead. Much easier and relies on less arm-twisting of RAW. Still an automatic DMG to the face, but then again we're talking TheoOp here right?




If you choose to rule it that way, that is fine.

RAW, that's how it works. RAI, it doesn't give you ongoing control (beyond one triggered suggestion during that period of control), because otherwise Dominate effects would be obsolete.



Though it would still work for an assassination, by telling the Succubus to charm then kiss "insert name".

If you think that is too much. Then "Charm (insert name).". Then do it again "When (insert name) is charmed by you use your kiss until they die.".

You could also do other things by stacking Mass Suggestion that way too, by casting it every day, you can still add enough effects in to get a lot of use out of it

I allow that. You need to use a lot of resources though, so it's justified, Easier is to just say "kill that person" and leave it to your follower.

That said, it might not be reasonable if they have some sort of stigma against killing, however. Plus sitting still for the earlier transformations are also unreasonable unless they're already loyal followers in the first place (in which case you don't need Suggestion).



Of course, this is much easier and will go more smoothly, if they are just loyal to you in the first place.

This is how you abuse Animal Shapes.

Tame a big bunch of hamster rats. Or cats, dogs, whatever, but you can fit more rats in the effective radius of 30 ft. Actually, no, not cats. Cats are bastards.

Animal Shape all of them into Elephants. They still retain their mental scores and alignment.

(Or just one. True Polymorph only affects one creature anyway)

Use your elephants for whatever stampede you need (optional).

True Polymorph one of the Elephants into a Succubus. It now gains the mental ability scores of a Succubus, but would still retain its original alignment and personality.

There, done. Repeat.

Easier method?

Take a block of rock or wood of medium size or above. Use Creation if you're too lazy or cheapskate to get the materials.

True Polymorph the chunk of whatever material into a Succubus. Or you might as well go up to CR 9, it lets you do it.

Said follower is friendly to you and you decide its movement and action (so it pretty much obeys you completely) for the duration of the spell. It no longer automatically follows your orders once the spell becomes permanent (and it may not remain friendly), so treat it nice. It'll probably be a loyal follower since you just created it ex nihilo after all (well, more like ex terra). If not, just Mindrape Modify Memory it.

[Blood of Gaea]

Your right that Mass Suggestion isn't a good way to go about it really, but it wasn't supposed to be. This is a method to buff up allies, Mass Suggestion can just make it semi viable for non followers.

If I just wanted a CR 9 to do what ever I wanted it too, there is a pretty easy way to do it.

1. Have some cast Conjure Fey or Elemental as a 9th level spell, or True Polymorph an object into a celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend of CR 9. Then tell them to sit still and do nothing.

2. Have someone else cast Planar Binding on them as soon as they are summoned, it will take effect as the spell is on it's last round. If it fails, the creature goes away, and you try again tomorrow. If you have the Epic Boon for an extra 9th level slot, you can do this yourself.

To turn it into a CR 9 whatever you want, either have a third caster True Polymorph them, or do it tomorrow.