OOTS #1008 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Desert Sun]

Just when I thought all hope was lost, and then you tried to steal it from me anyway. Absolutely awesome fight!

[ts20fan]

Wow, Roy really scraped by on that one for now...

Is that a typo on the last panel? Should it be lifespan over lifepan?

Another unexpected plot twist! Thanks Rich!

[iyaerP]

Hel's might looks like it made him 2 or three size categories bigger than usual.

[Pokonic]

Giant vampires are the worst.

[Larrx]

Durkon's almost as tall as his patron Diety . . . time for a reversal, right? Something has to go well for Roy at some point, yes? Please?

[Bulldog Psion]

Holy wow! Dark oxymoron warning! Dark oxymoron warning!!!! :smalleek:

This is not a drill!!!!

[Luizeu]

Amaziing
Great sneak attack ! and bttf reference

[Teatime]

Is a Dwarf that is a Giant still a Dwarf? #showerthoughts

[RickDaily12]

Hold on. I know all about the whole "story trumps rules" bit.

But didn't Harm reduce Roy to 1 hitpoint? And then the negative levels down to -9?

Even with Diehard, shouldn't Roy be dead by core rules? ( again, story), but mechanically speaking?

[hrak]

Brilliant way to bridge one cliff hanger into another while poking at all the theories of someone saving Roy.

I still believe Roy has got this, and the way he wins here I think will prove he has got what it takes to take on another high level undead caster. His Brains!

[DaOldeWolf]

HPoH aint playing around though it was a great idea from Wrecan to help without attacking. Cheers to him.

Roy, hurry and drink the potion!!!!

[CoffeeIncluded]

How the hell did he get that big? That's way larger than Large! And he's back in the northern lands so...yeah, things are still bad. Nice save from Wrecan though.

[Veya]

Giant vampires... yep, this is escalating intenselly.

[Shekinah]

A lawful rogue always makes me smile. Makes me think that Belkar is going to do something that will go against said rules. Also, it will be funny. And Loki will probably like it.

[canpinter]

And that is how you do a fake out.

[Kish]

Hold on. I know all about the whole "story trumps rules" bit.

But didn't Harm reduce Roy to 1 hitpoint?

Apparently not.

No, nothing in the comic ever said that it did.

No, Harm is not guaranteed to reduce someone to 1 hit point, particularly not a near-epic fighter who's already demonstrated the ability to pass Will saves caused by its caster.

[Vrock_Summoner]

And the tables turn!

... Twice. Damn it, they're back in Durkula's favor again.

[ti'esar]

"Hel's Might??"

...Oh, carp. :smalleek: That can't be good.

Love Wrecan's rules-abiding contribution to the confrontation. Though I still think his shield looks weirdly like a giant button.

Edit: And does this make him a rogue?

[BranMan]

Well, you know what they say.

The Hel is mightier than the Thord!

Also, did anyone else think that the potion suddenly took 9 levels in cleric?

[littlebum2002]

I'm really enjoying the writing for Wrecan. He's almost as clever with his language as Roy.

[Venusaur]

Hold on. I know all about the whole "story trumps rules" bit.

But didn't Harm reduce Roy to 1 hitpoint? And then the negative levels down to -9?

Even with Diehard, shouldn't Roy be dead by core rules? ( again, story), but mechanically speaking?

Harm only reduced to 1 hit point in 3.0. In 3.5 it does 10 points of damage per caster level (max 150) with half on save.

[Draconium]

Well, this ought to be really fun. :smallbiggrin: Roy, you better heal up soon, before the Giant Vampire Dwarf gets ya... That was an odd sentence.

[IamWeasel]

Does Durkula take damage twice? Roy hitting him and him hitting the floor?

[Stabbey]

Hmmm... I'm guessing that Roy did make his save versus the Harm, because if he really had been reduced to 1 HP and then sent to -9 via the slam attack/energy drain, precedent from the comics is that once you are at 0 HP or less, you are incapacitated and can't act.

[President]

Strip 1008 published on 10/08. This pleases me.

Also Roy, less dialogue, more drinking potions!

[Mith]

Didn't he still have his normal movement speed? I recall that being referenced back in Azure City.

[Ravens_cry]

Wasn't it already established that the </Insert God Here>'s Might spells do not increase your speed?

[AlexanderML]

I love the moment when the two hear "Hel's Might".

[zimmerwald1915]

Harm only reduced to 1 hit point in 3.0. In 3.5 it does 10 points of damage per caster level (max 150) with half on save.
So as little as 70 damage here, then. Perfectly survivable for Roy.

Carry on.

[Spoomeister]

Hm. Fight's been going for a while now.

Who stands to gain the most by having the fight take long enough for the other representatives to do their sub-vote and return to the chamber?

[Smolder]

My expression is the same as Roy's in the second to last panel.

Also: Wrecan is awesome.

[Lord Raziere]

"Sneak attack from behind is a thing I cannot do, because that would be against the rules"

I see what you did there. :smallwink:

[ramakidin]

That first panel totally threw me for a loop. I thought Belkar was back in the game and it turns out to be Wrecan doing something awesome. Hurry up Belkar!

[Arin]

I don't know who was psyched out more by the fact that it wasn't Belkar, Durkon or us. ;)

[Omnicras]

The Thor's might gag strikes again. Although I suppose it is called Hel's might now.

[happycrow]

I love how Durkula simply CANNOT.STOP.GLOATING.

Just like his Mommy.

[Fungi]

I really thought a potion was talking for a confused minute.

[1chapelcredit]

And HPoH appears to be fully healed.

Great.

[NeoSeraphi]

Also, did anyone else think that the potion suddenly took 9 levels in cleric?

I absolutely thought that the first time I saw it. I thought "Rich, please, don't tell me that's some kind of ooze cleric".

[MrMercury]

"SNEAK ATTACK FROM BEHIND"

"loljk but I made you look lol"





I think it's time for Roy to whip out his undead-slaying sword powers! That should even the fight with a giant undead dwarf

[Toper]

Holy crap, a talking potion!

Somebody better get Roy a pondful of holy water or a really long stake...

[CrispyCriminal]

With all the stops ol' Durky is doing, how the heck is Xykon going to compare? Meteor Swarm and Energy Drain can only do so much for cinematic bad***ry, even with witty lines.

[Great equalizer]

If HPoH attacks Roy and Wrecan takes the hit, would it make HPoH everyone's target?

[Solarix]

Didn't he still have his normal movement speed? I recall that being referenced back in Azure City.

It doesn´t affect speed. But it does grant reach, which can be used to easily hit Roy from its current location.

[Excise]

Maybe Wrecan isn't a rogue, and the rules he was talking about were the D&D rules ;-)

[Ridin'TheCrash]

I feel so bad for Roy, guy cant catch a break

[Seward]

Hold on. I know all about the whole "story trumps rules" bit.

But didn't Harm reduce Roy to 1 hitpoint? And then the negative levels down to -9?

Even with Diehard, shouldn't Roy be dead by core rules? ( again, story), but mechanically speaking?


No. Roy clearly made the save against Harm, so he had more than one hitpoint left. Otherwise the followup punch and level drain would have ended the fight.

[Malfarian]

drink Roy Drink!

[prism6691]

Hel's might looks like it made him 2 or three size categories bigger than usual.

He is not as large as the deities that were summoned/proxied. He is either large or huge and climbed back up. You can almost see one of his boots.

[RayGallade]

Also, did anyone else think that the potion suddenly took 9 levels in cleric?

Chalk me up as another guy who thought that. Definitely a double take moment.

[Brendanicus]

Ugh, there are absolutely no end to Durkula's tricks, are there? Great props to Wrecan, completely saved the day in the simplest, smartest way possible. Fun twists on running jokes are always the best.

[ss49]

The comis title is "Not to Scale".

How, how is HPoH going to lose?

(I also thought the potion was speaking. For a moment.)

[ORione]

Maybe Durkula will step on one of the High Priests and that will count as attacking them.


Durkon's almost as tall as his patron Diety . . . time for a reversal, right? Something has to go well for Roy at some point, yes? Please?

There were two reversals in the strip. Unfortunately, that means we're going in the same direction again.


Edit: And does this make him a rogue?

His armor looks awfully heavy for a rogue. I think it's just that he doesn't need a class ability to say the words "sneak attack".

[Lombard]

"I tried to think of the most harmless thing. Something I loved from my childhood. Something that could never ever possibly destroy us. Mr. Stay Puft!"

[FolcoTook]

Go Wrecan! That was funny... right up to the 30 foot vampire, anyway.

[Baron Pineapple]

Wasn't it already established that the </Insert God Here>'s Might spells do not increase your speed?

They don't increase your speed, but since they do increase your height, that affects your starting point of movement for Climbing, as well as your base Jump.

Durkula simply was able to get to the balcony faster because of the added height, not because of any increase to land speed.

[137beth]

I think it's just that he doesn't need a class ability to say the words "sneak attack".

Yea probably. After all, V said it.


Although hel's might be a rogue. Pun intended.

[Stabbey]

The comis title is "Not to Scale".
How, how is HPoH going to lose?


Victory comes from within.

[Nosferatu]

Lol, those first two panels... :smallbiggrin:

[Ghost Nappa]

"SNEAK ATTACK FROM BEHIND"

"loljk but I made you look lol"


"Oh darn, I can't believe I fell for that."

[Rock270]

This is like the Crystal golem fight all over again, everything seems to be progressing so slowly until you go back and read it at a pace somewhat faster than one comic a week. At least the Giant is posting them semi-regularly, keep up the good work!:smallbiggrin:

[Mandor]

With all the stops ol' Durky is doing, how the heck is Xykon going to compare? Meteor Swarm and Energy Drain can only do so much for cinematic bad***ry, even with witty lines.

Who knows? Perhaps in the not too distant future, Xykon, like Tarquin before him, will discover that he's not the real villian.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

C'mon, as if this c-list loser Durkula made of angst and petty resentment could compete with the one, the only, Lord Xykon.

[RolkFlameraven]

Doh! :smalleek:

Love how Wrecan did that, but love even more that an undead cared about said sneak attack enough for Roy to bullrush him away. Wrecan's got some bluff ranks it seems, I'm still thinking he is a ranger of some kind.

[SaintRidley]

Wrecan trolls by playing a game of "I'm not touching you." Nice.

[Zweisteine]

Wrecan's got some bluff ranks it seems, I'm still thinking he is a ranger of some kind.

Nah. I think he literally just shouted "sneak attack from behind," and because rogues tend to shout that out when doing it, the HPoH turned around.

[Smolder]

For a second I was worried that Durkula would dominate Wrecan, but if he did that, it would be breaking the rules of the moot, wouldn't it? It might result in other HPs getting involved. Powerful as he is, Durkula is still just a Dispel away from ash.

[Subzero008]

Hold on. I know all about the whole "story trumps rules" bit.

But didn't Harm reduce Roy to 1 hitpoint? And then the negative levels down to -9?

Even with Diehard, shouldn't Roy be dead by core rules? ( again, story), but mechanically speaking?

You die at -10. I thought this was established already.

Once you go below 0 the dice rolls to not die start. Roy's probably high Con, so he's not likely to keep bleeding/dying/whatever.

[Draconi Redfir]

Hold on. I know all about the whole "story trumps rules" bit.

But didn't Harm reduce Roy to 1 hitpoint? And then the negative levels down to -9?

Even with Diehard, shouldn't Roy be dead by core rules? ( again, story), but mechanically speaking?

Do we have any evidence to suggest either of those occorences ever happened?:smallconfused: I mean yes the harm spell was used, but how do we know he was dropped to 1hp? The touch that took place after that had no verbal components so it's impossible to tell what it could be, it could very well have been a inflict light wounds.

[King of Nowhere]

so, every time there is a new oots, i keep thinking it would be the resolutive one. and every time the battle goes on without a clear victor, even if durkula had seemed to hold a clear advantage since the last four or five comics. not that i'm complaining, since it's a beautiful fight.

Also, last comic it appeared that durkula had finished roy, but apparently he hadn't cast the spell yet, merely displaced the sword that roy was using to parry.

and last thing, i assumed thor's might was a domain spell or power: it is not a core spell, we never saw other clerics use it, and we never saw durkon casting it more than once per day. how can durkula still cast it? is it an homebrewed core spell after all? or a vampire retains some domain powers? By the way, durkon is bigger than he used to be: compare his relative scale in the last strip with that here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) or here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html). I'd go with "domain power", that sales with level.

[jidasfire]

Doh! :smalleek:

Love how Wrecan did that, but love even more that an undead cared about said sneak attack enough for Roy to bullrush him away. Wrecan's got some bluff ranks it seems, I'm still thinking he is a ranger of some kind.

In 993, Wrecan references being sent by the church of Marduk, whom we've seen in passing have paladins in their employ. Given his status as a bodyguard, heavy armor and shield, and kinship to Roy, suggesting a lawful demeanor, I am pretty sure Wrecan is a paladin.

[Draconi Redfir]

Durkon's feet aren't visible, it's possible they aren't touching the floor and he's currently spider-climbing the wall again. It DOES look like he's clinging to that railing after all.

[Anarion]

Well, there's our massive cleric for the event. Now things are getting serious. I really want to see Roy go full on giant strength though and just heave Hel's might boosted Durkon over a wall.

[Basement Cat]

Love it!!!

Can't directly interfere? Psychological warfare!

Still, I get the feeling that Durkula's "Hel's Might" is the beginning of the end for his bad guy domination.

Why? Call it instinct. Or call it The Giant's talent for drawing victory from defeat for our heroes.

Granted the heroes need to be stomped from time to time to emphasize both/either the bad guys' capability/heroes' resolve but...well...I suspect we're being set up for the very first time a "vampire" overcomes his/her evil dominating spirit for the sake of the Good.

<_<
>_>
<_<

Granted my record as a prophet for OotS plot curves is pretty much zero but....HEY!?!?!?!

[Father Miles]

Maybe Wrecan isn't a rogue, and the rules he was talking about were the D&D rules ;-)

That is exactly what I thought he meant. I'm sure Rich did that intentionally... who says there's no humor?

[rbetieh]

Nah. I think he literally just shouted "sneak attack from behind," and because rogues tend to shout that out when doing it, the HPoH turned around.

You know, not that Roy could know this, but this is exactly how you beat this vampire.

"Hey buddy, remember when we were in situation X and I did Y"
"Yeah..."
Exact opposite of Y.

The guy is a sucker...he thinks that just because he has all of Durkons memories that he has an edge. The thing is, he thinks he has such a great advantage that he isn't bothering to learn. That and he seems more focused on beating Durkon than Roy, just saying.

[Fish]

Throw that healing potion into that big open mouth, Roy.

[StLordeth]

Damn no Belkar yet :'(

[GAZ]

His head is significantly smaller than Hel's and he's closer to our view. I don't think Durkula is that big. More likely he spider-climbed back up.

I love Wrecan's helping without helping. Very funny. And kinda zen.

[BranMan]

Throw that healing potion into that big open mouth, Roy.

ooh, do potions work like that? I suppose they are positive energy, so they should hurt undead just like a cure wounds spell. Still, I think Roy could use the healing moreso than the damage.

[SaintRidley]

and last thing, i assumed thor's might was a domain spell or power: it is not a core spell, we never saw other clerics use it, and we never saw durkon casting it more than once per day. how can durkula still cast it? is it an homebrewed core spell after all? or a vampire retains some domain powers? By the way, durkon is bigger than he used to be: compare his relative scale in the last strip with that here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) or here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html). I'd go with "domain power", that sales with level.

It's a standard cleric spell that's been reskinned to be more personalized to each cleric's deity. The spell in the SRD is Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm).

[SamDerringer]

Durkula attacking Wrecan seems like the best case scenario here, as it would probably vive a green light for outside interference (Veldrina's, at the very least.)

[georgie_leech]

Victory comes from within.

Now I wonder if Durkon might be able to cast spells in there. And what would happen if he used Thor's version. :smallbiggrin:

[rbetieh]

It's a standard cleric spell that's been reskinned to be more personalized to each cleric's deity. The spell in the SRD is Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm).

I still find it rather humorous that Durkon (and Vampire Durkon's) best move is a page ripped right out of Rita Repulsas playbook. Maybe, it's the wine talking tonight, but the first thing I thought about was "Make my monster GROW".

Has Elan been saving a Zord just for this moment?

[ShaneWegner]

BOSS BATTLE! Tap Left and Right to dodge his swinging appendages. Use your knowledge of architecture to hide behind columns to bait him into smashing them, bringing down the dome and flooding him deadly sunlight!

*Deadly if someone dares a dispel on his sunlight protection anyway, which statistically SOMEONE is going to think they have nothing left to lose by trying. Maybe Loki's priest would find it funny.

[The Guardian]

In 993, Wrecan references being sent by the church of Marduk, whom we've seen in passing have paladins in their employ. Given his status as a bodyguard, heavy armor and shield, and kinship to Roy, suggesting a lawful demeanor, I am pretty sure Wrecan is a paladin.

You think a Paladin would sit idly by due to a technical rule rather than try to save the world from destruction and 10 million souls from permanent enslavement? I highly doubt he's a Paladin.



On another note... the funniest part about this strip is that undead are immune to sneak attacks. :smallbiggrin::smallyuk:

[georgie_leech]

You think a Paladin would sit idly by due to a technical rule rather than try to save the world from destruction and 10 million souls from permanent enslavement? I highly doubt he's a Paladin.


Sure he would, if direct assistance A) goes against his oath, and more importantly B) is just likely to result in Cleric Mutually Assured Destruction. Paladins are allowed to make choices in light of their likely consequences.

[Deprox]

Why? Why is this happening?

. . . WHY DIDN'T THE POTION GROW?

[The Guardian]

Sure he would, if direct assistance A) goes against his oath, and more importantly B) is just likely to result in Cleric Mutually Assured Destruction. Paladins are allowed to make choices in light of their likely consequences.

So you are saying end of the world + soul enslavement isn't pretty much the worst-case scenario, and there's some even worse consequence that could result from this Moot should a Paladin intervene?

[rbetieh]

So you are saying end of the world + soul enslavement isn't pretty much the worst-case scenario, and there's some even worse consequence that could result from this Moot should a Paladin intervene?

If the god voted Yes and the Paladin accepts "Greater Good" arguments as fundamentally aligned with Good.....

Not that I do, but enough people (including D&D writers) accept these kinds of arguments as Good to pass the alignment test. Besides, "soul ceases to exist" probably sounds worse than "soul goes to its earned afterlife, except dwarves" to most people. Not that either is a fundamentally Good outcome, just one is decidedly less Evil than the other.

[Killer Angel]

:smalleek:
Well, of course Durkula would have buffed himself, given the chance... :smallsigh:

[CrispyCriminal]

So you are saying end of the world + soul enslavement isn't pretty much the worst-case scenario, and there's some even worse consequence that could result from this Moot should a Paladin intervene?

Deity's wish would likely come first. A paladin can feel free to fall on the spot and die should they fail, and then face the consequences soon after in a chair sitting on a cloud high up in the sky (or even space). But hallowed ground is neutral for a reason, it's practically a pardon from following their oath.

Now, if that paladin was non-theistic on the other hand...

[littlebum2002]

As much as I enjoyed this comic, "sneak attack from behind" should have been a PERFECT cliffhanger ending on the last strip, only to completely throw us on this strip.

[Blanth]

You know; for a main character of short stature, Durkon gets tossed around a lot.

[Sky_Schemer]

He is not as large as the deities that were summoned/proxied. He is either large or huge and climbed back up. You can almost see one of his boots.

Per the comic's title, he's not to scale. :smallwink:

[WindStruck]

Warning: vampires in panel are closer than they appear.

[Alex Warlorn]

That spell's only good for a quick one-two punch! Just go full defense and dodge his next couple mega attack and you'll be in the clear! He didn't use that before! Meaning he didn't want to use it before! You have his back against the wall!

[knhaw]

Hmmm. I'd like to throw a speculation out there....

With Durkula at a huge size with Hel's Might, his eyes are at least two feet in diameter. Would it be possible for Roy to peer into said eyes and see the bound and captive Durkon like in comic 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)? Admittedly, it could just be a stylistic thing The Giant did and one does not literally see the bound spirit inside the eye of a vampire. But... I think it'd an interesting thing to help reveal to Roy what's happening (perhaps followed up with a desperate vampire demanding Durkon help him bluff Roy, resulting in Durkon tricking him with a "when to help" memory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) and subsequent green glow on Roy's sword, as others have speculated).

[Robot Samurai]

You know; for a main character of short stature, Durkon gets tossed around a lot.

Nobody tosses a dwarf!

[Trillium]

Strip 1008 published on 10/08. This pleases me.

Also Roy, less dialogue, more drinking potions!

we can only wish strips up to 1031 released with same timing...


...hey, Giant, don't you DARE do one strip per year!

[DaggerPen]

Commenting without reading the rest just yet but:

1. Oh, that was beautiful. Thank you Wrecan.

2. But here I thought it never seemed to work out that way? :p (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html)

Things are looking tough here, but at least they're not as bad as the cliffhanger from the last comic. Better put that college training to use and start chugging, Roy.

[Onyavar]

Strip 1008 published on 10/08. This pleases me.

Also Roy, less dialogue, more drinking potions!

Total agreement on both accounts.


Didn't he still have his normal movement speed? I recall that being referenced back in Azure City.
Wasn't it already established that the </Insert God Here>'s Might spells do not increase your speed?

Here, right? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) That was also my first thought. Let's hope Hippo gets into a rage about the impracticality of that spell once he realizes it.

Sad enough that his reach IS higher, and he can just climb up.


Victory comes from within.In that case, Undurkon doesn't stand a chance.


Hmmm. I'd like to throw a speculation out there....With Durkula at a huge size with Hel's Might, his eyes are at least two feet in diameter. Would it be possible for Roy to peer into said eyes and see the bound and captive Durkon like in comic 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)? Admittedly, it could just be a stylistic thing The Giant did and one does not literally see the bound spirit inside the eye of a vampire. But... I think it'd an interesting thing to help reveal to Roy what's happening (perhaps followed up with a desperate vampire demanding Durkon help him bluff Roy, resulting in Durkon tricking him with a "when to help" memory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) and subsequent green glow on Roy's sword, as others have speculated).

I see how that could work out. It doesn't need to be the visual of a bound Durkon, but Roy could just figuratively realize that the real Durkon doesn't have this expression in his eyes.
Roy (suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere): This is not Durkon.

[sotanaht]

Hold on. I know all about the whole "story trumps rules" bit.

But didn't Harm reduce Roy to 1 hitpoint? And then the negative levels down to -9?

Even with Diehard, shouldn't Roy be dead by core rules? ( again, story), but mechanically speaking?

It's hard to believe he could survive even 70 damage with all that he's taken so far, but there could be some other mitigating factors going on.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Nice.

Minimal effort intervention. A bit anticlimatic to see Roy just getting up like that after looking so out for the count on the last two pages, but it does mean all the other twists to this battle people came up with are still in play.

I'm also secretly hoping this might mean Durkon doesn't react when he hears a "hafling rage attack from above" or something similar coming, but that's probably too far fetched an idea.

Still, purely rules wise this should help Durkon just as much as it helps Roy. He may have taken less damage so far (having "only" been slashed almost in half) but he has better ways to undo it (unless Roy has got some not-so-basic potions there, which is probably the case given it works in the story).

[EarwaxRock]

Also, did anyone else think that the potion suddenly took 9 levels in cleric?

Yes. Glad to see I wasn't the only one.


Who stands to gain the most by having the fight take long enough for the other representatives to do their sub-vote and return to the chamber?

I'm fairly well convinced that Hel's plan must involve the demigods not showing up, at least for a while, otherwise HPoH's killing the ushers was a grave mistake (since it seems that's what's preventing the vote right now).

[Bulldog Psion]

Holy crap, a talking potion!

Add me to the list of those who thought this is what was being shown, initially. :smallbiggrin:


Somebody better get Roy a pondful of holy water or a really long stake...

Great comment -- really made me grin! :smallsmile:


Maybe Wrecan isn't a rogue, and the rules he was talking about were the D&D rules ;-)

Yeah, it looks like it's a mix of "I can't attack you because of the Godmoot rules," and "D&D rules don't allow my class to sneak attack." Quite clever, really. :smallsmile:

[Trillium]

Too bad HPoH is already off the floor. Would've been cool if he accidentally stepped on one of other HPs, giving them carte blanche to dust him.

[rockdeworld]

Hel's might looks like it made him 2 or three size categories bigger than usual.
I noticed that too. It's apparently variable size, like animated Godzilla.

Edit: or the comic's title (which I dare hope applies to position too)

[Seward]

and last thing, i assumed thor's might was a domain spell or power:

The spell is "Righteous Might". Makes you big, strong, tough. It's one of the staple "cleric trying to be a fighter" spells that is usually not worth spending a round to cast compared to actually doing something, but in situations where you have time to get it up and nothing else pressing to do, it does add some nice, if round-level buffs. I like Rich renaming it to the deity, because it is kind of a stupid name if the cleric isn't especially Righteous.

"Thor's Lightning" is probably a domain spell. Normal clerics get nothing like it.

[Seward]

As much as I enjoyed this comic, "sneak attack from behind" should have been a PERFECT cliffhanger ending on the last strip, only to completely throw us on this strip.

Actually to me, the funniest part about him falling for Sneak Attack! was that undead are immune to sneak attack.

He's EXTRA dumb to get distracted by that.

[daanh]

Also, did anyone else think that the potion suddenly took 9 levels in cleric?

Yes, I did.

[pendell]

An update! Whooo!

I totally did not see that coming by Wrecan. Well done! Both the character and the author who always find a way to surprise me.

...

The priests are more generous than I. I would have interpreted Wrecan's actions as violating the *intent* of the rules. He may have interfered with words rather than actions, but he interfered nonetheless.

And that SHOULD be enough to warrant his immediate execution.

Happily, the priests are more literal-minded than I. Unhappily, this is probably why they are standing around with their thumbs firmly inserted , as opposed to imitating Wrecan's fine example.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Nobody tosses a dwarf!

True, but Durkula is just an oddly shaped Vampire, not actually a Dwarf.



Yeah, it looks like it's a mix of "I can't attack you because of the Godmoot rules," and "D&D rules don't allow my class to sneak attack." Quite clever, really. :smallsmile:

That was my take as well.



Hmmm. I'd like to throw a speculation out there....

With Durkula at a huge size with Hel's Might, his eyes are at least two feet in diameter. Would it be possible for Roy to peer into said eyes and see the bound and captive Durkon like in comic 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)? Admittedly, it could just be a stylistic thing The Giant did and one does not literally see the bound spirit inside the eye of a vampire. But... I think it'd an interesting thing to help reveal to Roy what's happening (perhaps followed up with a desperate vampire demanding Durkon help him bluff Roy, resulting in Durkon tricking him with a "when to help" memory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) and subsequent green glow on Roy's sword, as others have speculated).

Sounds like a very viable theory. I support this as a possibility.

------------

Ideas of my own, Roy has been expecting to battle Xykon and his many negative level inducing undead underlings... could Potion of Restoration be among the emergency cleric in a pouch supplies Roy is now carrying on himself? Also, we know the Mechane had crates of potions for Roy to choose from. Could some special heal all damage and effects potion have been an option, and since healing/cure effects hurt undead, would such a potion dust Durkula or miraculously purify him of his vampirism and heal Durkon fully?

[Trillium]

Nobody tosses a dwarf!

Bah, just don't tell the elf.

[Neltharak]

Roy, we know talking is a free action, but drink that thing already !

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Mwah, Roy's land speed is higher, he could just keep running around the cathedral chugging potions.

Because outside of all the rulewise problems with that (spells with range...) that's totally the most dramatic and thrilling thing that could happen.

[Trillium]

Mwah, Roy's land speed is higher, he could just keep running around the cathedral chugging potions.

Because outside of all the rulewise problems with that (spells with range...) that's totally the most dramatic and thrilling thing that could happen.

Durkula can just turn into Wolfkula or Batkula and maybe even put out some serious punishment in melee in such a form.

[Eireannx]

An update! Whooo!
The priests are more generous than I. I would have interpreted Wrecan's actions as violating the *intent* of the rules. He may have interfered with words rather than actions, but he interfered nonetheless.

And that SHOULD be enough to warrant his immediate execution.



Why? The rules are that you mustn't raise arms against another, not that you mustn't 'interfere'.

The intent is to prevent him from harming anyone else, and he didn't harm Durkula in any reasonable interpretation of the rules. He also didn't use any spells or abilities beyond talking, so I can't see how he raised arms against another.

Even the priests in their discussions felt they could cast spells to aid Roy, it's just that priests of Gods who voted the other way would then buff Durkon. (See strip 1002 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html))

[obaryb]

Could Wrecan just shield Roy from Durkula? Would be against the rules? Distracting vampire is not, obviously...

[Shadowhawk2012]

One thought I've had, now that Durkula is now many sizes bigger will Roy be able to see a small Durkon in the corner of his eye? Because we really need Roy to get serious soon and based on the lack of emotionally driven anti-undead sword auras I get the impression he is still holding back to some extent.

[DaggerPen]

An update! Whooo!

I totally did not see that coming by Wrecan. Well done! Both the character and the author who always find a way to surprise me.

...

The priests are more generous than I. I would have interpreted Wrecan's actions as violating the *intent* of the rules. He may have interfered with words rather than actions, but he interfered nonetheless.

And that SHOULD be enough to warrant his immediate execution.

Happily, the priests are more literal-minded than I. Unhappily, this is probably why they are standing around with their thumbs firmly inserted , as opposed to imitating Wrecan's fine example.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The bodyguard of the HPOH is now attacking his patron cleric in order to take advantage of a rules loophole to nullify Hel's vote to destroy the world, which she made in order to take advantage of a rules loophole that would give her the souls of all the dwarves on the planet, which the other gods are powerless to stop because of a set of rules that prevent them from changing a vote once made.

I think we passed "intent of the rules" as a relevant factor a few miles back.


Mwah, Roy's land speed is higher, he could just keep running around the cathedral chugging potions.

Because outside of all the rulewise problems with that (spells with range...) that's totally the most dramatic and thrilling thing that could happen.

I can hear the Yakety Sax from here.


Could Wrecan just shield Roy from Durkula? Would be against the rules? Distracting vampire is not, obviously...

This was one of my first thoughts, but it'd have to be used very carefully - after all, Roy needs to be able to attack or else the HPOH wins anyway. So a dramatic dive into the path of a HPOH attack may work, but any extended human shielding seems right out.

[tigerusthegreat]

Durkola could also be buying time for his vampire friends to kill Baldur's emissary and then the cote is clearly decided as yes.

[dtilque]

Well, there's our massive cleric for the event. Now things are getting serious. I really want to see Roy go full on giant strength though and just heave Hel's might boosted Durkon over a wall.

Or, since Durkula is hanging on the railing, attack the railing and cause it to fail, thus dropping the (oxymoron warning) Giant Dwarf onto the nave's floor.

[Bulldog Psion]

Actually to me, the funniest part about him falling for Sneak Attack! was that undead are immune to sneak attack.

He's EXTRA dumb to get distracted by that.

Well, there are plain old sneak attacks -- attacks launched without the target suspecting it -- and Sneak Attacks -- a class feature dealing extra damage.

It might be an issue similar to Miko's "samurai" vs. "samurai class" thing. :smallwink: Multiple closely related but not identical things, some of them part of the D&D rules, and some of them just part of the world in general.

[OneBoot]

Also, did anyone else think that the potion suddenly took 9 levels in cleric?

:smallsmile: I did as well, for a confused moment (and from Wrecan's puzzled expression in that panel, apparently he did too, lol)

Those first two panels, oh man, I laughed for a good minute! I mostly play rogues, and I ALWAYS yell "Sneak Attack!" before throwing the dice. :smallbiggrin:

My prediction on how things will go down: HPoH will grab Roy, gloat some more, and prepare or begin to cast a final Harm to finish Roy off. That's when real Durkon will have his breakthrough moment and manage to overcome the HPoH's control.

Belkar's still a wild card for me; he might get involved, or he might not. I'm leaning towards not, just because I feel like this scene is about Durkon's story and the resolution of his character arc more than anything. I'm really hoping he's still alive. :smallfrown:

Huzzah!
--OneBoot :D

[Quild]

Actually to me, the funniest part about him falling for Sneak Attack! was that undead are immune to sneak attack.

He's EXTRA dumb to get distracted by that.

Undead are immune from the extra damages of Sneak Attack. You're still willing to know who's the guy yelling that he's attacking you (Yor, is that you?!). Considering this quick check to be more important than the already almost dead guy is not that stupid.
There are some way to deal extra damage to undeads. I believe that someone specifically had a plan to Sneak Attack an undead in Start of Darkness, but there are other ways.
HPoH may not know that undead are immune to sneak attack. Even if he's an undead himself, yes.

[Trillium]

Actually to me, the funniest part about him falling for Sneak Attack! was that undead are immune to sneak attack.

He's EXTRA dumb to get distracted by that.

There's actually a Paladin (!) spell in Book of Exalted Deeds that allows them sneak attack undead, because magic.
Fair chance Durkula knew about existence of such a spell.

[Keltest]

We can see the top edge of Durkon's boot. Whats he standing on? Or is he just climbing up the railing and hoping its good dwarven stonework?

[Braininthejar2]

"Now shall you deal with me, o hero, and all the powers of HEL!"

[dtilque]

We can see the top edge of Durkon's boot. Whats he standing on? Or is he just climbing up the railing and hoping its good dwarven stonework?

He's climbing the railing. Which is why I suggested Roy could attack the railing and cause it to fail. Hopefully, he could do this out of Durkula's reach, so he wouldn't be subject to slams or touch attacks.

If you look up Righteous Might, it's only supposed to make the caster twice their normal height. Durkula is definitely larger than that. (Not to scale, indeed!) So he shouldn't have nearly the reach that it looks like he has.

[Sotris]

Didn't he still have his normal movement speed? I recall that being referenced back in Azure City.Now that got me thinking... What if Roy references or implies something related to a previous time Durkon had used Thor's Might, Durkula fails to catch it (or thinks it's about something else entirely) and that plot element finally comes into play?

OK I'm grasping at straws here, but at this point I'll gladly accept any plot device that will give Roy a chance.

[greatscott]

Why? Why is this happening?

. . . WHY DIDN'T THE POTION GROW?

Because the potion was not undead?

[Trillium]

Know who would be size-fitting for Durkula to fight right now?

Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator!

Bloodfeast is technically Belkar's animal companion, so he can legally participate in the fight... even if he's delivered by Haley's arrow and dispelled by V mid-flight.

[Kantaki]

Did turning into a giant ever end well for villains? I think Durkon using Hel's Might was a mistake.

Add me to thase that thought the potion was talking at first.

[Roland Itiative]

Well, now the boss has taken its second form. The fight shouldn't last much longer now :P

[zinycor]

An update! Whooo!

I totally did not see that coming by Wrecan. Well done! Both the character and the author who always find a way to surprise me.

...

The priests are more generous than I. I would have interpreted Wrecan's actions as violating the *intent* of the rules. He may have interfered with words rather than actions, but he interfered nonetheless.

And that SHOULD be enough to warrant his immediate execution.

Happily, the priests are more literal-minded than I. Unhappily, this is probably why they are standing around with their thumbs firmly inserted , as opposed to imitating Wrecan's fine example.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

As i understand it, is not against the rules to interfere in this combat, The clerics don't do it out of their own conviction that it isn't the best idea to do so (since if someone cast a buff on roy, someone else would cast a buff on Durkula as well).

[D.One]

"Sneak attack from behind..." LOL

[jidasfire]

You think a Paladin would sit idly by due to a technical rule rather than try to save the world from destruction and 10 million souls from permanent enslavement? I highly doubt he's a Paladin.



You know, that or he knows if he tried anything, he'd be blasted to dust by half or more of the high priests in attendance, he probably isn't as high level as Roy anyway, and he IS doing what he can within the confines of the situation around him by helping Roy. I realize there's a contingent around here who seems to think good is only good if it's both unhumanly saintly and suicidally impractical, but I'd say Wrecan is a fine example of a paladin, which I remain pretty sure he is based on every single point I already made.

[Dr.Zero]

In the meantime, anyway, Durkula seems to be fast healing quite well.
He had 2 tick lines (abdomen, shoulder) in 1006 to show he was injured. Then they quickly became two thin lines.
And now I cannot see them at all anymore, and the one in the abdomen should be visible.

And Thor's Might (now Hel's Might) was always Durkon most effective spell, really. The big guns, as he called it.
Against the goblins when they faced Xykon the first time, against the druid when he turned in a bear, against the ninja and the hecueva in Azure City. It always worked.
The only time it failed was against the big devil summoned by Qarr. But still with that spell he managed to go toe to toe with it.

To make it short, Roy should die quickly if a miracle isn't happening. Of course a miracle will happen, since the world cannot end here, so we have only to wait what kind of miracle it will be. :)

[Baphomet]

Prediction: Belkar returns, wins the fight against HPoH, but not with straight combat. He uses some sort of lateral thinking nonsense that ends in HPoH's defeat but breaks some rule of the Godsmoot. Is subsequently executed by the clerics. He evaded justice for a lifetime of evil, but meets his end for committing a good act.

EDIT: I'll up the ante even more. Possible lateral thinking nonsense he might use: if a cleric or that cleric's entourage attacks another cleric on the neutral ground, that cleric becomes a valid target for all the other clerics to attack. Belkar is technically part of HPoH's entourage. Belkar attacks another cleric so that all the other clerics are no longer bound by the rules protecting HPoH from them. HPoH is destroyed by all the other clerics, Belkar is killed for initiating the attack.

[St Fan]

There's actually a Paladin (!) spell in Book of Exalted Deeds that allows them sneak attack undead, because magic.
Fair chance Durkula knew about existence of such a spell.

It's not a paladin spell, and it's not from the Book of Exalted Deed. The spell is "Grave Strike" from the Complete Adventurer.

The limitation is that it's a personal spell, so in theory it can only be used by a multiclassed character both able to cast cleric spells and to make sneak attacks.

The trick is, since it's a 1st-level Divination cleric spell, it is also eligible for "Imbue with Spell Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm)"; thus the cleric of the party can imbue it to the rogue. One of the best use of the combo, in fact.

[Vinyadan]

OMG vampire King Kong :smalleek:

Please don't become the Peter Jackson movie. Let's remain in Bad Taste territory with self-replicating humanoid monsters running around, with Hel as the Martian.

(This is a critique to the movies. I actually like the development.)

[Alakallanar]

It's hard to believe he could survive even 70 damage with all that he's taken so far, but there could be some other mitigating factors going on.

Agreed.

Assuming Durkon and Roy are both level 14 and that Durkon has STR 16:

Comic 1002 Panel 6: Unknown Spell. Let's assume Inflict Light Wounds (Reach). 1w8+5
Comic 1003 Panel 10: Slam + 2 Negative Levels. 1w6+13
Comic 1004 Panel 3: Flame Strike. Assume Roy saves. 7w6
Comic 1004 Panel 12: Slam + 2 Negative Levels. 1w6+13
Comic 1006 Panel 8: Harm. Assume Roy saves. 70
Comic 1007 Panel 23: Slam + 2 Negative Levels. 1w6+13

Total: 114 + 10w6 + 1w8 => ~153 Damage on average

Roys HP assuming CON 20: 154HP

So assuming Roy made all his saves, and assuming a pitiful STR for Durkon (10 before becoming a vampire) and assuming the spell in Comic 1002 was only a pathetic ILW and assuming Roy has a relatively high CON for a character with no dump stats the damage is still about the same as Roys max HP.

[Werbaer]

So you are saying end of the world + soul enslavement isn't pretty much the worst-case scenario, and there's some even worse consequence that could result from this Moot should a Paladin intervene?
Ending the world and let all souls go to their regular afterlife (which includes dwarfen souls to go to their death goddess) is the worst that can happen?

How about the snarl slaying all gods and undoing all souls?

[Trillium]

It's not a paladin spell, and it's not from the Book of Exalted Deed. The spell is "Grave Strike" from the Complete Adventurer.

The limitation is that it's a personal spell, so in theory it can only be used by a multiclassed character both able to cast cleric spells and to make sneak attacks.

The trick is, since it's a 1st-level Divination cleric spell, it is also eligible for "Imbue with Spell Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm)"; thus the cleric of the party can imbue it to the rogue. One of the best use of the combo, in fact.

Ah, right, BoED has Good poisons. Mixed up two sources and two rogue-features-for-saints.

[FlumphPaladin]

Did turning into a giant ever end well for villains? I think Durkon using Hel's Might was a mistake.

Add me to thase that thought the potion was talking at first.

The only way it could have been a worse move is if he had turned into a giant snake.

[Jay R]

The priests are more generous than I. I would have interpreted Wrecan's actions as violating the *intent* of the rules. He may have interfered with words rather than actions, but he interfered nonetheless.

Sure, but the "intent" of the rules was to prevent combat as a political tool in the godsmoot. So Roy's actions also violate the intent. The only reason there's no rule for a bodyguard attacking his own cleric is because that's never likely to happen, since it's the opposite of a bodyguard's job.


Or, since Durkula is hanging on the railing, attack the railing and cause it to fail, thus dropping the (oxymoron warning) Giant Dwarf onto the nave's floor.

But that would require using Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) in a fight, and who would ever do something like that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)?

[Grey Watcher]

The bodyguard of the HPOH is now attacking his patron cleric in order to take advantage of a rules loophole to nullify Hel's vote to destroy the world, which she made in order to take advantage of a rules loophole that would give her the souls of all the dwarves on the planet, which the other gods are powerless to stop because of a set of rules that prevent them from changing a vote once made.

I think we passed "intent of the rules" as a relevant factor a few miles back.

(By the way, I realize that the following is probably just saying aloud what most people have already figured out, but I wanna say it anyway.

I think part of the reason for favoring the letter of the law over the spirit in this case is because the Gods have such wildly differing agendas, portfolios, and personalities that the letter of the law is as much as they agree upon. I mean, if the High Priest of Sunna tried to kill Roy on the grounds that "The intent of the rule is clearly to forbid attacking priests!", I'm sure the High Priest of, I dunno, Loki would counter under the reasoning that "Nope, the exception was clearly left in to in to make sure that internal affairs would not be interfered with."

And the whole thing would descend into a crazy cacophony of divine magic flying every which way.

Also, I am sorelty tempted to sig that last line of yours. :smallbiggrin:


Know who would be size-fitting for Durkula to fight right now?

Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator!

Bloodfeast is technically Belkar's animal companion, so he can legally participate in the fight... even if he's delivered by Haley's arrow and dispelled by V mid-flight.

I thought Mr. Scruffy was Belkar's offical Animal Companion. Bloodfeast is just an ordinary (well, as ordinary as a dinosaur gets in a non-prehistoric setting) animal that Belkar was able to succeed at the appropriate skill checks to befriend.

[grandpheonix]

I dont know how I didnt think of this earlier... why not get rid of his holy symbol? Without it, no spells.

*gloats gleefully*

[Samalpetey]

Someone tell me I'm not the only one getting major Asura's Wrath vibes from this. Anybody?

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

Look's like Hel is paying attention now...

And maybe this will cause the next "sneak attack from behind" by Belkar to be ignored...

[Trillium]

I thought Mr. Scruffy was Belkar's offical Animal Companion. Bloodfeast is just an ordinary (well, as ordinary as a dinosaur gets in a non-prehistoric setting) animal that Belkar was able to succeed at the appropriate skill checks to befriend.

Can't ranger have multiple Animal Companions? Or, rather, is the bond so strong one cannot pretend that Bloodfeast is the animal companion if it isn't?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Roy better start running while drinking that potion.

[sdeath]

OK, so I'll try a prediction again and see if I'm right THIS time.

I'm going to bet that Durkula is going to casually swat Wrecan, because Evil + vampire + annoyed, and at least injure him if not kill him. There's a reason Wrecan jumped into this scene, and is nice and close to a giant, enraged, murderous vampire. That is going to wind up being a huge mistake on Durkula's part BECAUSE... drumroll... that would be an attack of one deity's followers by another's, which is unacceptable by the terms of the Godsmoot, triggering obligatory participation against the attacker by at least the majority of the high priests there.

It won't be much of an attack, because he'll be focused on Roy; it'll be incidental. But the simple act of acting to harm a bodyguard ensures that he'll turn back around in time to see a Ballroom Blitz breaking out, with more than half of the high priests unleashing Smite Face upon his, well, face, and possibly a few priests trading blows. He has no choice, then, but to flee, and consequently foil Hel's plan by negating his vote. (He'll also be fleeing without his magic staff, putting him at a large disadvantage when it comes time to refresh that Protection from Daylight spell. Maybe one of his new baby vampires can bring it to him, though.)

And where will he flee? Why, towards "Home", of course. Where he's got a grudge to settle. Where there's plenty of dwarves to feast upon and turn into slaves. After all, if you can't murder them all at once and give them to your god wholesale, well, you can certainly do it the old-fashioned and fun way - one at a time - right? And that's just as good. In some ways, it's even better. And Hel can't exactly blame him, because it's not like he didn't do his best to do her will. That Roy came out swinging with a greatsword and a loophole isn't Durkula's fault.

Actually, that sparks another prediction: the fallback plan for Hel, which she will activate when the going gets too rough, is to send HPoH to blow the gate himself, or threaten as much, to force the other gods to end the world anyway. If he makes it to the other side of the gameboard first, Hel wins. That turns this into a three-way race, with a corresponding amplification of drama - you have OOtS, who wants to preserve the gate; Xykon, who wants to take it over; and Durkula, who wants to destroy it. Battle Royale in the making.

[HandofShadows]

Great page but :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: for Roy.

[Jay R]

Of all the predictions for this strip, how many people had, "Wrecan distracts the HPoH briefly"?

[foobar1969]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, "Not to Scale" is a double entendre. It refers to both Durkon's size increase and that he no longer needs to scale (climb) the wall, he can hop up, or even just attack with reach from the lower level.

[drazen]

With all the stops ol' Durky is doing, how the heck is Xykon going to compare? Meteor Swarm and Energy Drain can only do so much for cinematic bad***ry, even with witty lines.

I've always held a theory that the Final Battle won't be against Xykon. It's going to be against Redcloak. After all, if Xykon is destroyed, he reappears in Wrong-Eye's magic bag, and doesn't destroying the bag destroy everything inside it permanently?

This cleric fight is probably going to give Roy some ideas.



Assuming Durkon and Roy are both level 14 and that Durkon has STR 16...

Did the assumptions take into account Roy's massive STR plus his Belt of Giant Strength? He's pretty beat up, I'll call it 5-20 HP. Or maybe in OOTS World, the level drains don't do damage and just remove 5 max HP, rather than losing 2 levels and 10 current HP. I don't play D&D or RPG's (aside from one well-known online "parody" RPG for a number of years) and have seen the rules discussed here but the former makes more intuitive sense to me.

[Ivrytwr]

Wow.
That is one giant dwarf.

Thanks Giant!

[Breccia]

No Roy don't just stand there! Drink the potion! What's wrong with you?!

Oh, and prediction territory:
Isn't the Mechane mostly made out of wood?
Has anyone else seen The Little Mermaid?

[Vectner]

CODzilla rises...

[Skull the Troll]

Did turning into a giant ever end well for villains? I think Durkon using Hel's Might was a mistake.

Add me to thase that thought the potion was talking at first.

I believe that's a corollary to Evil Overlord rule #34 (no not that rule 34) :

I will not turn into a snake, it never helps.

[Sloanzilla]

Roy should just go through a door or down a corridor for a second. Fifth level spell wasted.


Someone said something earlier in this thread along the lines of "righteous might is a way to spend a round if you have it- but not that important."

That's not the case. The self-buff trio, including righteous might, is precisely why the 3.X cleric is sometimes considered to be overpowered (well, that and persistent spell/nightsticks). A buffed up clericzilla is one of the most dangerous things in the game.

[Dalek Kommander]

No Roy don't just stand there! Drink the potion! What's wrong with you?!

Now that HPoH can reach Roy, if Roy tries to drink a potion he will now provoke an attack of opportunity. The rules of D&D, and the rules of Drama for that matter, strongly discourage munchkins from reducing combat to a boring exercise of inventory management where the person who brought the most healing potions wins.

[Trillium]

Now that HPoH can reach Roy, if Roy tries to drink a potion he will now provoke an attack of opportunity. The rules of D&D, and the rules of Drama for that matter, strongly discourage munchkins from reducing combat to a boring exercise of inventory management where the person who brought the most healing potions wins.

You wanna say there's something WRONG with hero eating three watermelons and a roast deer leg between two sword swings, as some Dovakhiins are known to do?

[notjoshing]

The building was not constructed with creatures of that size in mind. Now is the time for Roy's superior architectural knowledge to turn the tide.

[deimos3428]

Roy finally gets a break as Thor's lawyers appear and drag the HPoH off for (alleged) trademark infringement of the Might spell...

[Shining Wrath]

Amid all the rules lawyering, no one has raised the point that by helping Roy up, Wrecan is almost certainly breaking the rules? That is more than just words, that is changing a fighter from a prone to a standing posture.

Never thought for a second that a potion was using HPoH's voice bubble.

Roy is strong enough to hit HPoH right in the face and launch him back into the nave - which may count as an attack, but by who?

[littlebum2002]

Amid all the rules lawyering, no one has raised the point that by helping Roy up, Wrecan is almost certainly breaking the rules? That is more than just words, that is changing a fighter from a prone to a standing posture.

Never thought for a second that a potion was using HPoH's voice bubble.

Roy is strong enough to hit HPoH right in the face and launch him back into the nave - which may count as an attack, but by who?

"A bodyguard who raises arms against the priest of another god must be put to death immediately"

When did Wrecan raise arms against the HPoH?

[Svata]

Isn't the Mechane mostly made out of wood?
Has anyone else seen The Little Mermaid?

It's a witch!

[Trillium]

"A bodyguard who raises arms against the priest of another god must be put to death immediately"

When did Wrecan raise arms against the HPoH?

Technically, he raised Roy's arms, along with the rest of Roy... and nobody can argue that Roy is against HPoH.
Such fancy wording may veeery well be lawyered in-comic.

[wolfdreams01]

I don't have anything useful to contribute but I just wanted to say that I am really loving the fight scene thus far. The way both hero and villain are pulling out all their tricks (from Roy's Spellbreaker ability to Durkula's Spider Climb) really makes the combat feel epic. I also love how this vampire plot arc turned out to be all about Durkon's character development - that totally snuck up on me until the very last minute. Great job, Rich!

[Svata]

"A bodyguard who raises arms against the priest of another god must be put to death immediately"

When did Wrecan raise arms against the HPoH?

His arms look pretty raised in panel 2.

[hroþila]

"A bodyguard who raises arms against the priest of another god must be put to death immediately"

When did Wrecan raise arms against the HPoH?
Yup. There are basically no rules about what you can and can't do in a fight, because the rules didn't envision a fight in the first place.

Of course, Wrecan did help Roy, but he'd have to take it A LOT further to warrant the Yea-priests doing anything beyond cheerleading for Durkon, risking further escalation.

[littlebum2002]

Technically, he raised Roy's arms, along with the rest of Roy... and nobody can argue that Roy is against HPoH.
Such fancy wording may veeery well be lawyered in-comic.

I must have missed the panel where he grab's Roy's sword and raises it. I was under the distinct impression that Roy raised Roy's arms.


Now that HPoH can reach Roy, if Roy tries to drink a potion he will now provoke an attack of opportunity. The rules of D&D, and the rules of Drama for that matter, strongly discourage munchkins from reducing combat to a boring exercise of inventory management where the person who brought the most healing potions wins.


Roy can certainly provoke an AoO, but since Durkula's arms are currently being used to climb back up to the second floor, he won't be able to do anything about it.

[Seward]

Someone said something earlier in this thread along the lines of "righteous might is a way to spend a round if you have it- but not that important."

That's not the case. The self-buff trio, including righteous might, is precisely why the 3.X cleric is sometimes considered to be overpowered (well, that and persistent spell/nightsticks). A buffed up clericzilla is one of the most dangerous things in the game.

And it is a parody in most games. Here's how it actually works.

Spend one round casting divine power+quickened divine favor
spend one round casting rightous might
Get one attack because nobody is standing next to you, or get ganked because your party died while you were doing nothing but buffing yourself.

Fight is over because nearly all high level fights take about 3 rounds.

You actually need persistent spell for it to work the way the CodZilla advocates say it works. Which, except for very high level play also requires divine metamagic and a lot of turn attempts. Which requires nightsticks, usually promptly banned (assuming divine metamagic or persistent spell are not also banned)

What is more typical and works better, you cast the buffs right before kicking down the door to the boss fight, should you correctly identify when the Boss fight will happen and the Boss doesn't use those same rounds to either interrupt or make things worse, say by having every demon in the room summon more demons or casting its own self-buffs (since you're shouting out verbal components which are easy to notice). In that situation, yeah, a cleric is a pretty good fighter - except he is still often more useful to the party actually using cleric spells, rather than wading into melee, and because of this significant amount of the time the giant cleric with enhanced strength, bab, hit and damage modifiers gets only a few swings in during the battle, sometimes none.

[Cinnibar]

I am waiting for the Snail to pop in and whup his new rival, the Giant Dwarf Vampire Cleric. :D

[ChillerInstinct]

...Ooh, right. That.

...On the bright side, Durkon's heart is now a bigger target...?

[LordRahl6]

I am waiting for the Snail to pop in and whup his new rival, the Giant Dwarf Vampire Cleric. :D

Oh! Nice One Cinnibar! Too bad SSaDT is non-canon.:smalltongue: Still loved the Catch phrase at the end. That's Sunday comics Gold!:smallbiggrin:

[GigaGuess]

Did Durkula REALLY just fall prey to "Look! A distraction!"

How IS that WIS score looking?

[A's B Backfire]

Why is the undead creature so concerned with a sneak attack?

Rules Based - prevalence of magic items enabling sneak attacks vs. undead.
Story Based - Is Durkon's own persona showing through?

[Lexible]

Somebody better get Roy a pondful of holy water or a really long stake...

Well, we already know that potions affect a single creature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) regardless of size (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html), and Roy is holding a potion of something inimical to vampires, with a clear shot to a gaping maw right in front of him.


Prediction: Belkar returns, wins the fight against HPoH, but not with straight combat. He uses some sort of lateral thinking nonsense that ends in HPoH's defeat but breaks some rule of the Godsmoot. Is subsequently executed by the clerics. He evaded justice for a lifetime of evil, but meets his end for committing a good act.

EDIT: I'll up the ante even more. Possible lateral thinking nonsense he might use: if a cleric or that cleric's entourage attacks another cleric on the neutral ground, that cleric becomes a valid target for all the other clerics to attack. Belkar is technically part of HPoH's entourage. Belkar attacks another cleric so that all the other clerics are no longer bound by the rules protecting HPoH from them. HPoH is destroyed by all the other clerics, Belkar is killed for initiating the attack.

That is seriously clever. I am not sure that such a violation would make an entire delegation (priest plus bodyguards plus bodyguards' righteous dino-mount animal companions) subject to sanction/death, or if it would just make the individual member of the entourage subject to it. If the latter, nice try Belky, but buh-bye, and HPoH remains.

[Anansiil]

This is so pleasant! The fight seems so one-sided, and then, an interesting reversal that is never cheesey. I'm loving it :smallcool:

[Reathin]

Hel's looking fairly annoyed over there. She can't hear the dialogue, apparently, but can she see the fight? And wondering why it's taking so long to get the verdict that will crown her new Queen of the Northern Pantheon? Or can she actually see this, and is bothered by something else?

[rewinn]

"A bodyguard who raises arms against the priest of another god must be put to death immediately"


(emphasis added)

PREDICTION: Belkar's rival in "OtOoPCs" reveals himself as a bodyguard and launches a Massive Kick Attack! :smallbiggrin:

[CardboardPizzas]

I think I know what's gonna happen here. Belkar, having fallen out of the window a few strips back, will land on the 'just cruising' Mechane. Elan will make a few deus ex machina remarks while Belkar will tell them of Durkula's plan. They will, in mirror of when Belkar first told them Durkon had died, be skeptical as he had been ranting about Durkon being evil the entire time they were on the Mechane. But, through his knowledge of cliches, Elan will believe him, and they will all make their way to the Godsmoot. Just as Giga Durkula is about to finish Roy and Wrecan off, Elan barges in, proudly shouting that there is another voter, holding Banjo the Clown in all his glory aloft. Odin, recognising Banjo from when he tried to join the Asgardian pantheon at the start of the No Cure For The Paladin Blues arc, gives the thumbs up and Banjo, Northern God of Puppets, votes no on the destruction of the world. This infuriates Hel and Durkula, and, for failing her, Hel destroys Durkula, leaving the body of Durkon open for resurrection by the high level clerics attending while Hel attempts to crush Banjo. However, Elan's early prophecy is fulfilled, and the Godsmoot hears the call... of BANJULHU! Hel and Banjulhu fight, with Banjulhu being the victor. As a reward, Banjo rises to Asgard and Elan becomes the high priest, as the members of the Order (Roy somewhat reluctantly) except V, who worships the elven God of wisdom and the now resurrected Durkon, who worships Thor cry out a hearty 'HAIL BANJO!!!'

[SteveDJ]

Ok, throwing out my prediction before taking the time to read all 7 pages of comments -- where, it probably has already been predicted, but anyways...

When Durkula says "NOW who's the short one?" ...

...it is the perfect lead-in for the entrance of Belkar ... with an answer like "...ME!"

[Alakallanar]

Did the assumptions take into account Roy's massive STR plus his Belt of Giant Strength? He's pretty beat up, I'll call it 5-20 HP. Or maybe in OOTS World, the level drains don't do damage and just remove 5 max HP, rather than losing 2 levels and 10 current HP. I don't play D&D or RPG's (aside from one well-known online "parody" RPG for a number of years) and have seen the rules discussed here but the former makes more intuitive sense to me.

Roy's STR has no influence on how much he can take, only on how much he can dish out.

[CardboardPizzas]

Roy's STR has no influence on how much he can take, only on how much he can dish out.


I've always held a theory that the Final Battle won't be against Xykon. It's going to be against Redcloak. After all, if Xykon is destroyed, he reappears in Wrong-Eye's magic bag, and doesn't destroying the bag destroy everything inside it permanently?

This cleric fight is probably going to give Roy some ideas.




Did the assumptions take into account Roy's massive STR plus his Belt of Giant Strength? He's pretty beat up, I'll call it 5-20 HP. Or maybe in OOTS World, the level drains don't do damage and just remove 5 max HP, rather than losing 2 levels and 10 current HP. I don't play D&D or RPG's (aside from one well-known online "parody" RPG for a number of years) and have seen the rules discussed here but the former makes more intuitive sense to me.

Is your parody RPG, by any chance, Kingdom of Loathing?

[RblDiver]

Wrecan could stand in front of Roy, providing him cover and time to drink up. If HPOH attacks him...

[zinycor]

Ok, throwing out my prediction before taking the time to read all 7 pages of comments -- where, it probably has already been predicted, but anyways...

When Durkula says "NOW who's the short one?" ...

...it is the perfect lead-in for the entrance of Belkar ... with an answer like "...ME!"

That's an excelent point! nice!

[Doug Lampert]

And it is a parody in most games. Here's how it actually works.

Spend one round casting divine power+quickened divine favor
spend one round casting rightous might
Get one attack because nobody is standing next to you, or get ganked because your party died while you were doing nothing but buffing yourself.

Fight is over because nearly all high level fights take about 3 rounds.

You actually need persistent spell for it to work the way the CodZilla advocates say it works. Which, except for very high level play also requires divine metamagic and a lot of turn attempts. Which requires nightsticks, usually promptly banned (assuming divine metamagic or persistent spell are not also banned)

What is more typical and works better, you cast the buffs right before kicking down the door to the boss fight, should you correctly identify when the Boss fight will happen and the Boss doesn't use those same rounds to either interrupt or make things worse, say by having every demon in the room summon more demons or casting its own self-buffs (since you're shouting out verbal components which are easy to notice). In that situation, yeah, a cleric is a pretty good fighter - except he is still often more useful to the party actually using cleric spells, rather than wading into melee, and because of this significant amount of the time the giant cleric with enhanced strength, bab, hit and damage modifiers gets only a few swings in during the battle, sometimes none.
Clerics get Silence, a level 2 spell you can cast on an object while a good distance off, and then have someone carry the object between you and the door so you can cast and they can't hear you. But that's more elaborate than most people bother with, because you can also have someone teleport you in after everyone buffs.

All that said, yeah, it turns out that being a better fighter than the fighter is one of the WORST things a cleric can do in a battle. So generally they don't do it unless divine metamagic and nightsticks make doing so almost free and they're going against a trash fight rather than a boss.

But the fact that being a better fighter than the fighter is a poor cleric option is really all you need to know about balance in 3.x D&D.

[Vinyadan]

Did turning into a giant ever end well for villains? I think Durkon using Hel's Might was a mistake.

Where is Megazord when you need him?

[WindStruck]

Throw that healing potion into that big open mouth, Roy.

That would be a great idea actually. I think if you drink a potion, it's as if you cast the spell on yourself, so you don't get a save whatsoever. :smallsmile:

[autolycusfel]

I haven't been reading comments until recently, but if a cleric exiting invalidates their vote, why hasn't one of the other "Yes" clerics, assuming their god doesn't like this outcome given Hel's monologue, exited the room?

[drazen]

Is your parody RPG, by any chance, Kingdom of Loathing?

Yes, but not under this username. I quit in 2012 when I met my (now) wife (not on KoL). Played a little this summer while I was home recovering from surgery, but don't otherwise have the time for it anymore. It got way too complicated and time-consuming, to the point that I'd have to look up how to do most anything on the wiki, which was really sort of ridiculous.

The only other parody one I even know of is Progress Quest, but isn't that just a joke that you do nothing and it levels you up without actually do anything?

[Bulldog Psion]

I haven't been reading comments until recently, but if a cleric exiting invalidates their vote, why hasn't one of the other "Yes" clerics, assuming their god doesn't like this outcome given Hel's monologue, exited the room?

Probably falls under the "no backsies" rule, I'd imagine.

[georgie_leech]

I haven't been reading comments until recently, but if a cleric exiting invalidates their vote, why hasn't one of the other "Yes" clerics, assuming their god doesn't like this outcome given Hel's monologue, exited the room?

Because people who are faithful enough to become the High Priest of their deity aren't terribly likely to twist said deity's intentions without a clear directive?

[Doug Lampert]

I haven't been reading comments until recently, but if a cleric exiting invalidates their vote, why hasn't one of the other "Yes" clerics, assuming their god doesn't like this outcome given Hel's monologue, exited the room?

There appears to be a barrier visible in panel seven of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html), it may just be a warning, but it could also be that the clerics are simply unable to leave.

[JoeyTheNeko]

yay for a surprising rescue! the fight is apparently far from over, awesome.

and this proves that the clerics of OOTS land name righteous might after their god's name. nice touch, since that's how it's described as being named in the players handbook.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, the other priests can learn from Wrecan.

"Greater Dispel! is a spell I can't cast on you."
etc.

[littlebum2002]

I don't play D&D or RPG's (aside from one well-known online "parody" RPG for a number of years) and have seen the rules discussed here but the former makes more intuitive sense to me.


Is your parody RPG, by any chance, Kingdom of Loathing?


Yes, but not under this username. I quit in 2012 when I met my (now) wife (not on KoL). Played a little this summer while I was home recovering from surgery, but don't otherwise have the time for it anymore. It got way too complicated and time-consuming, to the point that I'd have to look up how to do most anything on the wiki, which was really sort of ridiculous.


Wow, did this conversation bring me back! I played that game for years but got tired of it and quit. And yeah, I tried playing it again awhile back but it's just so in depth now it's almost impossible to play without cheating. I don't know how (or if) they still get new players

[a1chemi]

Wrecan could stand in front of Roy, providing him cover and time to drink up. If HPOH attacks him...

I've seen a lot of people suggesting that Durkula might incidentally damage another priest or bodyguard and therefore be promptly dusted.

Besides this being incredibly anti-climactic as a battle resolution goes, Wrecan said explicitly in this comic that feigning a sneak attack was the most he could do.

[Svata]

Wow, did this conversation bring me back! I played that game for years but got tired of it and quit. And yeah, I tried playing it again awhile back but it's just so in depth now it's almost impossible to play without cheating. I don't know how (or if) they still get new players


I started about two months ago. And what cheating? Haven't cheated at all, and I've been doing well. Four Ascensions under my belt so far.

[CrispyCriminal]

Now to see if Roy is 'good' enough not to be tempted to dismember our giant vampire's hand(s) and send him crashing down on the other high priests.

Bit evil, but almost guaranteed to cause the vampire to bite into more than he can suck.

[Grey Watcher]

So a giant vampire dwarf priest is pretty scary.

You might even say he's a ...

... clerical terror.

:smallcool:

[Bulldog Psion]

So a giant vampire dwarf priest is pretty scary.

You might even say he's a ...

... clerical terror.

:smallcool:

You might say that, assuming that you had no mercy whatsoever.

Apparently, sir, you don't. :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

I started about two months ago. And what cheating? Haven't cheated at all, and I've been doing well. Four Ascensions under my belt so far.

I meant using the wiki. I tried playing without it and just couldn't figure it out well enough

[Smolder]

I've seen a lot of people suggesting that Durkula might incidentally damage another priest or bodyguard and therefore be promptly dusted.

Besides this being incredibly anti-climactic as a battle resolution goes, Wrecan said explicitly in this comic that feigning a sneak attack was the most he could do.

Sure, but he can do something by doing nothing, so long as he's standing in between Roy and Durkula. I'm sure that Durkula is smart enough to know to avoid hurting Wrecan, but that may buy Roy (and Belkar) precious time.

[littlebum2002]

Sure, but he can do something by doing nothing, so long as he's standing in between Roy and Durkula. I'm sure that Durkula is smart enough to know to avoid hurting Wrecan, but that may buy Roy (and Belkar) precious time.

If Wrecan stands between Roy and Durkon, it certainly does mean that Durkon can't attack Roy, but more importantly it means Roy can't attack Durkon.

If Roy's only goal was "don't get killed by Durkon" he could have just stayed on the mezzanine in the first place. Roy is the one under pressure to end this ASAP, not Durkon.

[Svata]

I meant using the wiki. I tried playing without it and just couldn't figure it out well enough

Ah. I made do with advice. Only had to wiki during that blasted volcano maze.

[a1chemi]

Sure, but he can do something by doing nothing, so long as he's standing in between Roy and Durkula. I'm sure that Durkula is smart enough to know to avoid hurting Wrecan, but that may buy Roy (and Belkar) precious time.

Characters don't tend to try to logic around their own declarations.

[screwtape2]

Roy's gonna get killed again! YAAY!

[gerryq]

His armor looks awfully heavy for a rogue. I think it's just that he doesn't need a class ability to say the words "sneak attack".

I initially thought that was breaking the fourth wall a bit by using the "say the power you use" trope outside its scope. But of course, in 'reality' one could pretend to attack or cast a spell just as easily.

[drazen]

Wow, did this conversation bring me back! I played that game for years but got tired of it and quit. And yeah, I tried playing it again awhile back but it's just so in depth now it's almost impossible to play without cheating. I don't know how (or if) they still get new players

They get a few, but the activity level seems to be significantly diminished. Most of the people I knew haven't logged in for months, sometimes years. It's usually the same thing, once you get married/have kids you just have no time for it. I still go back every year for my Crimbo loot, though ;)

Back to the topic at hand of the vampire... too bad Roy doesn't have any wood. The vampire's (physical) heart would be a good target if he could get another wooden spear.

Only three ways I see it ending: Belkar intervenes, Roy does something clever, or the vampire inadvertently squishes a high priest while he's a giant oxymoronic dwarf.

[CrispyCriminal]

You know, with a lack of a break as well as the giant dwarf, I get this morbid feeling this is going to play out like a baby with a toy: Lots of thrashing around and getting slammed onto surfaces, and in the case of energy drain it'd translate to getting drooled on.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That was a pretty clever move by Wrecan. I was wondering when Durkon would pull out Hel's might, though.

[RblDiver]

If Wrecan stands between Roy and Durkon, it certainly does mean that Durkon can't attack Roy, but more importantly it means Roy can't attack Durkon.

If Roy's only goal was "don't get killed by Durkon" he could have just stayed on the mezzanine in the first place. Roy is the one under pressure to end this ASAP, not Durkon.

It only has to last long enough for Roy to potion up, then he can get back into the fray.

[pentagram]

Wrecan saved Roy's life. ...I think he would have liked that.

[Windscion]

Wrecan ... is acting like a PC, not an NPC. And he and Roy get along nicely. Almost like he is being positioned to replace Belkar in the order. Of course he is unlike Belkar in every possible way except being female. (He could hardly be a worse tracker than Belkar, which is what Roy thought he was getting when he recruited Belkar.)
Yeah, keep dreaming.

[Bulldog Psion]

Wrecan saved Roy's life. ...I think he would have liked that.

Bittersweet, isn't it? :smallfrown:

[Pallas]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

This has been bugging me for a while now. Does anyone else think that the design on Wrecan's shield looks reminiscent of Marduk's eyes, seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)?

Now that Durkula is tall enough to hit his head on the ceiling, maybe Roy finally has a chance to put his cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to good use.

[eilandesq]

While time is of the essence, Roy definitely needs to heal a bit to be a plausible opponent for Durkula at this point--it's hard to tell from what we've seen up to now, but if Roy retreats to the window side of the balcony, will Durkula be able to get to him at his current size?

[Gusion]

If we were in Pathfinder (which is imo, frankly, far superior to 3.5) there are rules for a called shot to the heart specifically related to vampires.

But in 3.5 vampires are immune, along with all undead, to the standard called shot.

I somewhat doubt those windows are really meant to keep people from crashing through them. I'd wager even the magical shielding is probably more akin to "False Image" + "Dimensional Lock" than offering physical protection.

So if someone was going to fly into the window, what hasn't it happened yet? Because it is taking this long for Belkar (who the ship picked up while falling - they've had lots of practice) to persuade them.

So seeing Belkar fly in through the window like a genuine hero and stabbing giant Durkula in his now-much-bigger non-beating heart... that sounds cool to me. Of course one of the clerics might just snuff Belkar out of existence for it without waiting to find out that he was also an official bodyguard (remember, only Roy, Wrecan, and Veldrina know that.)

It is probably something like implosion + disintegrate... something really really nasty to instill fear into anyone considering the idea of breaking the rules. And I think that would require something that doesn't allow for an easy resurrection.

[wyrmhole]

"Hel's Might??"

...Oh, carp. :smalleek: That can't be good.

Love Wrecan's rules-abiding contribution to the confrontation. Though I still think his shield looks weirdly like a giant button.

Edit: And does this make him a rogue?

It certainly doesn't mean he is a rogue -- there's a double meaning in his words if he isn't a rogue. Which is funnier, which is why I think that's what it means.

[Yendor]

Coming up next: the balcony can't support not-Durkon's weight.

"Aargh! Stupid shoddy construction!"
:durkon: "Now, if ye were thinkin' like a dwarf, ye'd na haf missed tha'."

[Orcus The Vile]

For one second I thought the potion bottle was the one saying it. LOL

[Rogar Demonblud]

And again it must be said: The Giant is AWESOME!

[KorvinStarmast]

Strip 1008 published on 10/08. This pleases me. Also Roy, less dialogue, more drinking potions! With all of the foreplay Rich has provided for the last ten strips, why should Roy not continue with the windbag routine? It's all about as much dialogue as you can fill a square with. :smallyuk:

"Sneak attack from behind is a thing I cannot do, because that would be against the rules" I see what you did there. :smallwink: Yeah, that was nice.

Maybe Wrecan isn't a rogue, and the rules he was talking about were the D&D rules ;-) Ya think?

Fun twists on running jokes are always the best.No, Haley not being able to talk was the best.

(I also thought the potion was speaking. For a moment.)That's the beer talking.

"Oh darn, I can't believe I fell for that." :smallbiggrin:

I think we passed "intent of the rules" as a relevant factor a few miles back.We have a winner.
Roland Itiative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19930044&postcount=136)

Well, now the boss has taken its second form. The fight shouldn't last much longer now :PWell played.
And last but not least:
Baphomet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19930104&postcount=141)
I like the cut of our jib, nicely played.

The above post is not a clerical terror ... my groan meter just broke, by the way. :smallyuk:

[Sloanzilla]

Maybe it is just my gaming group, but our DM seems to like drawn out fights and giving us enough notice (if we are smart) where we have a round to buff. Melee-via-buff clerics usually outshine everyone with the exception of crowd control wizards.

[Fitzclowningham]

Bittersweet, isn't it? :smallfrown:

Yes it is. Hope he can see this.

[Haar]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

This has been bugging me for a while now. Does anyone else think that the design on Wrecan's shield looks reminiscent of Marduk's eyes, seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)?

Now that Durkula is tall enough to hit his head on the ceiling, maybe Roy finally has a chance to put his cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to good use.

Considering Wrecan is in some way related to the Western Pantheon, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Marduk as, I dunno, a patron god or something. He COULD be religious.


So if someone was going to fly into the window, what hasn't it happened yet? Because it is taking this long for Belkar (who the ship picked up while falling - they've had lots of practice) to persuade them.

So seeing Belkar fly in through the window like a genuine hero and stabbing giant Durkula in his now-much-bigger non-beating heart... that sounds cool to me. Of course one of the clerics might just snuff Belkar out of existence for it without waiting to find out that he was also an official bodyguard (remember, only Roy, Wrecan, and Veldrina know that.)

It is probably something like implosion + disintegrate... something really really nasty to instill fear into anyone considering the idea of breaking the rules. And I think that would require something that doesn't allow for an easy resurrection.

We don't know Belkar's fate yet, and we won't know unless it happens.

And even if Belkar becomes relevant to the situation, there's still the matter of his stabbers being misplaced.

But I doubt the priests or bodyguards will do anything. Did they do anything when Roy jumped down and attacked Durkon out of the blue? No, and unless Wrecan or Veldrina yelled it offscreen, the priests didn't know then, either.

[dtilque]

(re: attacking the railing)
But that would require using Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) in a fight, and who would ever do something like that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)?

Who indeed? Just remember that I was the first (and so far only) person to suggest it as a tactic.


Since no one has mentioned it yet, "Not to Scale" is a double entendre. It refers to both Durkon's size increase and that he no longer needs to scale (climb) the wall, he can hop up, or even just attack with reach from the lower level.

I read it as Rich admitting that he intentionally drew Durkula too large just for the effect in the last panel. He's something like 4 or 5 times as large as his normal height, where the spell is supposed to enlarge to just twice the height. In future strips he may be drawn the correct size.


I haven't been reading comments until recently, but if a cleric exiting invalidates their vote, why hasn't one of the other "Yes" clerics, assuming their god doesn't like this outcome given Hel's monologue, exited the room?

The barrier we see in strip 1005 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html) may prevent that. My theory is that it is imposed by the gods for the duration of the moot and keeps all participants from leaving. Furthermore, it keeps anyone not authorized from entering and also prevents various magical forms of travel (teleport, gate, summoning, etc.) and communication (sending and anything else) from crossing it. Except of course for the spells needed for the moot. There's only indirect evidence supporting my theory, though.



This has been bugging me for a while now. Does anyone else think that the design on Wrecan's shield looks reminiscent of Marduk's eyes, seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)?

It's been pointed out before somewhere on this board. Personally, I think he's a worshipper of the button goddess.


Now that Durkula is tall enough to hit his head on the ceiling, maybe Roy finally has a chance to put his cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to good use.

I already suggested a way that doesn't involve the ceiling.

[Snails]

While time is of the essence, Roy definitely needs to heal a bit to be a plausible opponent for Durkula at this point--it's hard to tell from what we've seen up to now, but if Roy retreats to the window side of the balcony, will Durkula be able to get to him at his current size?

True, but there is really no way of knowing how much "juice" Roy is packing in just one potion. By the standard rules, there are significant practical limits, but the normal restrictions probably do not apply to characters of such high level.

Remember: (1) the mileage Roy got out of one single potion when fighting Thog in the arena is a strong hint that the potency of potions need not follow the restrictions of the DMG -- I would not find it crazy at all if Roy is holding a Potion of Heal right now. (2) Nale owned potions of Death Ward, which is too high for the standard rules, thus proving higher level spells were available -- if Roy had such a potion on hand the battle could be drawn out for a very long time.

[Cazero]

But in 3.5 vampires are immune, along with all undead, to the standard called shot.
That's why Roy couldn't decapitate the zombie dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html)

Turning into a giant dwarf was a fatal mistake ! Now the called shot houserule on massive creature is applicable, and you won't be able to cast anymore without those fancy hands of yours !

[Orful Biggun]

Well, we already know that potions affect a single creature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) regardless of size (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html), and Roy is holding a potion of something inimical to vampires, with a clear shot to a gaping maw right in front of him.

Yes, I think ... if I had to say one way or another, this is exactly the horse I'd want to be betting on. I haven't seen much about it beyond what Toper said and Lexible's reply, but I'm sold.

As a plot device to resolve this combat, it's almost perfect, IMO: throwing a heal potion (or two) into Durkula's cakehole is a vintage Roy-style "winning with his smarts" move; the action itself, as Lexible pointed out, has a clear-as-day precedent in strip 0923 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html) (where, take note, V is ... yep, throwing the potion bottles into Bloodfeast's mouth); doing this won't require participation by, or help from, anyone else (or any other airship, etc.); and the whole thing even includes a bit of the old "the bigger they are the harder they fall" ...

Only a few things might I quietly add. One, I was very much banking on "somethin' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html)" that I have yet to see. And what about Belkar? I just really can't shake the belief that he still has a part to play in this ... somehow. Same for Durkon.

Of course it could still all happen, Durkon says something that distracts Durkula long enough for Roy to sink a couple three pointers, and Belkar shows up to help actually win the fight. Still bothered by that "somethin'" remark, though ...

[Yendor]

Who indeed? Just remember that I was the first (and so far only) person to suggest it as a tactic.

There's a few ways it could go. Anything involving Roy's architectural knowledge and exploiting not-Durkon's size would be good. Preferably in a way that prevents him climbing back up again.


I read it as Rich admitting that he intentionally drew Durkula too large just for the effect in the last panel. He's something like 4 or 5 times as large as his normal height, where the spell is supposed to enlarge to just twice the height. In future strips he may be drawn the correct size.

There's some weird perspective going on here. When Roy was up against the railing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html), it was around the level of his belt. He looks much smaller here. I think not-Durkon's about three times his normal height, which is consistent with the other times the spell's been used.

[Sky_Paladin]

There's more than one way to kill a vampire - and we've seen when Malack perished just how effective sunlight can be.

Roy might be able to find a way to use the sun, such as a reflective surface, or a hole in the wall.

[dtilque]

There's more than one way to kill a vampire - and we've seen when Malack perished just how effective sunlight can be.

Roy might be able to find a way to use the sun, such as a reflective surface, or a hole in the wall.

Durkula was outside in the sunshine to go from the Mechane to the Temple, for instance here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html). He obviously cast Protection from Daylight on himself. There was an earlier strip where in a discussion between Roy and V, one of them said he was expected to figure out the spell at about that time. Assuming that's the case, it's virtually certain Durkula has prepared the spell two or three times (I'm sure he remembers how Malack was destroyed when he used the only instance of the spell he had prepared). So even if they get him outside and dispell it, he has a backups.

tl;dr Sunshine won't be a factor in this fight.

[dtilque]

There's some weird perspective going on here. When Roy was up against the railing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html), it was around the level of his belt. He looks much smaller here. I think not-Durkon's about three times his normal height, which is consistent with the other times the spell's been used.

You're right, Roy is drawn too small in that last panel. If we use him as the basis, it looks like Durkula is 20 feet tall or more. Using the railing, he's only 15 feet or so, which, as you say, is about how tall he was in previous instances. So Rich intentionally threw out proportion in order to make Durkevil look more menacing. Thus the strip title.

[Doorhandle]

You're right, Roy is drawn too small in that last panel. If we use him as the basis, it looks like Durkula is 20 feet tall or more. Using the railing, he's only 15 feet or so, which, as you say, is about how tall he was in previous instances. So Rich intentionally threw out proportion in order to make Durkevil look more menacing. Thus the strip title.

Was worth doing too. I do so hope this ends god-of-war (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1ompKbegok)style. Or shadow of the colossus style. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9g0g-_xahY)

[Shining Wrath]

So a giant vampire dwarf priest is pretty scary.

You might even say he's a ...

... clerical terror.

:smallcool:

And what will you do with the Internet you just won?

[Kish]

I haven't been reading comments until recently, but if a cleric exiting invalidates their vote, why hasn't one of the other "Yes" clerics, assuming their god doesn't like this outcome given Hel's monologue, exited the room?
They can't; Rich spelled out that that's the point of the barrier currently preventing the High Priest of Balder from going to look for the ushers rather than just standing at the door yelling for them.

[Haar]

They can't; Rich spelled out that that's the point of the barrier currently preventing the High Priest of Balder from going to look for the ushers rather than just standing at the door yelling for them.

I don't think it's so much this. As the HPoSunna pointed out, I don't think any of the High Priests are simply going to abandon their gods' votes in sake of their own personal opinions.

We don't know if the barrier can be passed, but I'd assume it can because how else would the priests of the demigods get in otherwise?

[CrispyCriminal]

Oh, NOW I get the pun from the last panel.

You know Durkula is sucking fumes from the memories he has from the comic strips when he's quoting from DCFs.

[Emperordaniel]

I don't think it's so much this. As the HPoSunna pointed out, I don't think any of the High Priests are simply going to abandon their gods' votes in sake of their own personal opinions.

We don't know if the barrier can be passed, but I'd assume it can because how else would the priests of the demigods get in otherwise?

I think the barrier is a one-way deal; you can get in, but you can't get out again.

[M.A.D]

What are the chances that somebody on the Mechane sees Durkula's giant form through the window and decides to snipe him with the ship's ballistae? And would such a shot kill him if it were able to land a direct hit?

[a1chemi]

What are the chances that somebody on the Mechane sees Durkula's giant form through the window and decides to snipe him with the ship's ballistae? And would such a shot kill him if it were able to land a direct hit?

I feel certain that the Deus Ex Mechane has already had its moment of rescue. So...very low...I guess.

[Bulldog Psion]

What are the chances that somebody on the Mechane sees Durkula's giant form through the window and decides to snipe him with the ship's ballistae? And would such a shot kill him if it were able to land a direct hit?

A ballista deals 3d8 damage, according to the D20 SRD. That averages out to 13.5 damage per hit; with DR 10, Lurky would take 3.5 points of damage from an average hit. It would barely tickle him. Even with a maximum roll of 24, 14 damage wouldn't be exactly battle-ending.

So even if they could somehow guess what was happening and somehow line up a shot, the effect of the ballista would unfortunately be trivial, most likely.