Is Hel's Might == Righteous Might?

[durron597]

In #1008 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1008.html), is Hel's Might == Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm)?

It seems to me that the answer is no, because that spell only increases the caster by one size category. We see in #1004 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1004.html) that the balcony is at least 20 feet tall, which means that the HPoH is now probably on the order of 25-30 feet tall, which is a lot more than:


This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8.

which would make HPoH only about 10 feet tall, max. so I bet it's a higher level, custom spell. Do we have a good idea of how many high level spells HPoH has left?

[ORione]

The strip's title is "Not to Scale".

[Psyren]

"Large" in D&D is anywhere between 8ft.- 16ft. Plenty of wiggle room there, especially since Durk can then climb up the wall as part of his move.

EDIT: He's definitely climbing up the wall, you can see the top of his boot in the last panel.

[Kantaki]

I dont think the HPoH is as big as the balcony is high. As far as I can see it looks like he is in the progress of climbing up the wall and just is high enough to reach over the balcony.

Anyway, Hel's Might is most likely the same spell as Thor's Might and that A) Righteous Might gets a deity specific name.
That Durkon/the HPoH look bigger than they should might be a artistic choice - it makes them look more impressive/dangerous - the same reason the goblins are human-sized.

[durron597]

The strip's title is "Not to Scale".

I agree that particular frame is probably not to scale / shown in perspective, but it would still be utterly wrong if he were standing on the floor. However, keep reading...


"Large" in D&D is anywhere between 8ft.- 16ft. Plenty of wiggle room there, especially since Durk can then climb up the wall as part of his move.

EDIT: He's definitely climbing up the wall, you can see the top of his boot in the last panel.

Ah, of course, you're right, he's definitely climbing up the wall, that explains everything, it surely is just simply Righteous Might. Thanks.

[factotum]

I'm not so convinced--if the spell is just Righteous Might, why not just call it that? It's not like the Bigby's Hand spells, where the name "Bigby" is considered part of D&D brand identity and thus unable to be used in third-party works like OotS. That, and the fact both Thor's and Hel's Might seem to increase Durkon's size far more than Righteous Might would, suggest to me they're different spells.

(Also note that Hinjo explicitly said Thor's Might made Durkon "15 feet tall" in strip #453, so it tripled his size whereas Righteous Might explicitly doubles it).

[BobTheDog]

(Also note that Hinjo explicitly said Thor's Might made Durkon "15 feet tall" in strip #453, so it tripled his size whereas Righteous Might explicitly doubles it).

Also note that strip 453 specifically points out how the spell changes Durkon's size, but not his speed. Exactly as Righteous Might would.

[zinycor]

I'm not so convinced--if the spell is just Righteous Might, why not just call it that? It's not like the Bigby's Hand spells, where the name "Bigby" is considered part of D&D brand identity and thus unable to be used in third-party works like OotS. That, and the fact both Thor's and Hel's Might seem to increase Durkon's size far more than Righteous Might would, suggest to me they're different spells.

(Also note that Hinjo explicitly said Thor's Might made Durkon "15 feet tall" in strip #453, so it tripled his size whereas Righteous Might explicitly doubles it).


Also note that strip 453 specifically points out how the spell changes Durkon's size, but not his speed. Exactly as Righteous Might would.

Then It's a very similar spell to Righteous Might.:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

I'm not so convinced--if the spell is just Righteous Might, why not just call it that? It's not like the Bigby's Hand spells, where the name "Bigby" is considered part of D&D brand identity and thus unable to be used in third-party works like OotS. That, and the fact both Thor's and Hel's Might seem to increase Durkon's size far more than Righteous Might would, suggest to me they're different spells.

I read it much like the line in Clenched Fist: "Clerics who cast this spell name it for their deities."


(Also note that Hinjo explicitly said Thor's Might made Durkon "15 feet tall" in strip #453, so it tripled his size whereas Righteous Might explicitly doubles it).

Eh, I didn't see a tape measure in Hinjo's hand in that scene.

[ORione]

EDIT: He's definitely climbing up the wall, you can see the top of his boot in the last panel.

Where? I don't see it.

[CrispyCriminal]

Where? I don't see it.

It's next to (his) left hand.

[littlebum2002]

It's an Augmented Righteous Might. He spends 6 additional power points and he becomes two size categories larger instead of 1.



Or maybe that's something else. ;)

[factotum]

Eh, I didn't see a tape measure in Hinjo's hand in that scene.

Look at panels 7 and 8 of page 2 of the strip, then. Compare the size of Hinjo with Durkon both while Thor's Might is active and when it is not. It certainly doesn't look to me that Durkon is only twice the size in panel 7 that he is in panel 8!

[Psyren]

Even if you disagree with "doubles," it's just semantics. 15ft. is still Large, which is one size category up from Medium, so it still fits with Righteous Might. Just say that the mathematics are inexact with regards to Dwarves (who are Medium despite being short) and it gets everyone to same rung in Large size regardless of their starting rung in Medium and it fits.


It's an Augmented Righteous Might. He spends 6 additional power points and he becomes two size categories larger instead of 1.



Or maybe that's something else. ;)

As stated above, he only went up one size category. But I see what you did there :smalltongue:

[Pyron]

"Lady Hel, I've been reading the description of Righteous Might... and I'm not sure it can actually make your high priest THAT large." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

[littlebum2002]

"Lady Hel, I've been reading the description of Righteous Might... and I'm not sure it can actually make your high priest THAT large." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

The way I read this was almost certainly not the way you intended for it to be read.

[Psyren]

"Lady Hel, I've been reading the description of Righteous Might... and I'm not sure it can actually make your high priest THAT large." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

He got in trouble for that - #453 again

[Half-Lord]

Noob question What advantages does turning big have for HPoH? I've never seen the spell Righteous Might used before

[littlebum2002]

Noob question What advantages does turning big have for HPoH?

Hel's Might: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm)

Bonus to strength (damage) and Constitution (HP)
Bonus to armor
Damage reduction

and that's about it, I think.

[Psyren]

Hel's Might: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm)

Bonus to strength (damage) and Constitution (HP)
Bonus to armor
Damage reduction

and that's about it, I think.

Large+ size also gives reach, which is the main benefit for melee types.

[littlebum2002]

Large+ size also gives reach, which is the main benefit for melee types.

#facepalm

Of course

[eilandesq]

He got in trouble for that - #453 again

Honey bad--er, Hel don't give a **** about that.:smallsmile:

[Phoniex]

Is it possible that hel's might subs the con bonus for an additional size bonus? So instead of +2 to con (useless to hel's undead) you instead increase size by 2 size categories? So medium->large->huge?

[Snails]

As a practical matter, the real advantage of Righteous Might is to be a more effective grappler due to the size boost, which could be a huge tactical advantage if Roy can be denied his greatsword attacks.

The other stuff is small potatoes, almost a roundoff error when facing Roy. The reach and DR are very nice against mooks, but a vampire is already a tough target for mooks and Roy is not a mook.

[factotum]

Even if you disagree with "doubles," it's just semantics. 15ft. is still Large, which is one size category up from Medium, so it still fits with Righteous Might.

You must be reading a different description of the spell than I am? The description on the SRD goes:

This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one

So it's the doubling in size which is the primary effect, and that happens to increase your size category. If the spell just said "Your size category increases to the next larger one" you'd have a point.

[Psyren]

You must be reading a different description of the spell than I am? The description on the SRD goes:

This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one

So it's the doubling in size which is the primary effect, and that happens to increase your size category. If the spell just said "Your size category increases to the next larger one" you'd have a point.

No, we're reading the same spell. I'm saying you're laser-focused on the less important part. The spell descriptions were not written with dwarves in mind.

Dwarves are a paradox; they are very short, to the point that the lower bound of Dwarven height (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#heightAndWeight) would actually make them Small. (3'9" base +MIN[2d4] = 3'11" = Small size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat). But adult dwarves count as Medium by RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm) due to their stocky build. The spell therefore gets them to next size category, Large, even if doing so means it has to more than double their size. One of those two has to give ("double their size," and "next size category") and both RAW and the Giant chose the former.


Is it possible that hel's might subs the con bonus for an additional size bonus? So instead of +2 to con (useless to hel's undead) you instead increase size by 2 size categories? So medium->large->huge?

He's not Huge - even if Hinjo's "15ft." is totally accurate, that's still Large.

[hamishspence]

No, we're reading the same spell. I'm saying you're laser-focused on the less important part. The spell descriptions were not written with dwarves in mind.

Dwarves are a paradox; they are very short, to the point that the lower bound of Dwarven height (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#heightAndWeight) would actually make them Small. (3'9" base +MIN[2d4] = 3'11" = Small size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat). But adult dwarves count as Medium by RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm) due to their stocky build.

They wouldn't be the only examples where a lower or upper bound actually takes makes the creature shorter than the theoretical minimum for its size class, or larger than the theoretical maximum.

For example half-ogres (Races of Destiny) can easily be well under 8ft tall (the minimum is 6' 7").

[factotum]

Dwarves are a paradox; they are very short, to the point that the lower bound of Dwarven height (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#heightAndWeight) would actually make them Small. (3'9" base +MIN[2d4] = 3'11" = Small size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat). But adult dwarves count as Medium by RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm) due to their stocky build. The spell therefore gets them to next size category, Large, even if doing so means it has to more than double their size. One of those two has to give ("double their size," and "next size category") and both RAW and the Giant chose the former.


Er, hold on a sec. So a Dwarf who is an inch or two too short to be normally considered Medium is still considered Medium. Why, then, does the same thing not extend to a Dwarf whose height is doubled, but is still too short to be normally considered Large? If there's a general exception for the race I don't see why it can't still apply when they're under the influence of a spell. And note there's nothing in the spell description that says "If this doubling in size would not increase the creature to the next size category, the spell adds on a bit just to make sure".

[SaintRidley]

"Double your height and quadruple your weight" is functionally meaningless text in D&D. There are a few things where it's useful (whether your fighter can drag your corpse, etc.). It's flavor text. The "become Large" part is the first mechanically significant part of the spell, and there are benefits conferred (DR, con bonus) which have nothing to do with the size increase. In any realistic gaming scenario a DM is going to look at the spell and just go "you're Large now" and just not worry about height and weight at all. Likewise, in any realistic storytelling scenario (and you know I don't mean a realistic story but a realistic example of how someone might tell a story), especially where the author is on record as not willing to be beholden to the precise letter of the rules, the storyteller will probably do the same as the DM.

[Psyren]

Er, hold on a sec. So a Dwarf who is an inch or two too short to be normally considered Medium is still considered Medium. Why, then, does the same thing not extend to a Dwarf whose height is doubled, but is still too short to be normally considered Large? If there's a general exception for the race I don't see why it can't still apply when they're under the influence of a spell. And note there's nothing in the spell description that says "If this doubling in size would not increase the creature to the next size category, the spell adds on a bit just to make sure".

Because again, the spell is written under the assumption that doubling your height would get you to the next size category. But in cases where that's not true - like the Dwarf - the second part of that takes precedence.

Consider it artistic license or a rules convenience. Or if that doesn't work for you, write the Giant a sternly worded letter. I'm sure it will matter a great deal.

[Kantaki]

Er, hold on a sec. So a Dwarf who is an inch or two too short to be normally considered Medium is still considered Medium. Why, then, does the same thing not extend to a Dwarf whose height is doubled, but is still too short to be normally considered Large? If there's a general exception for the race I don't see why it can't still apply when they're under the influence of a spell. And note there's nothing in the spell description that says "If this doubling in size would not increase the creature to the next size category, the spell adds on a bit just to make sure".

The spell says that the increase in size changes your size category to the next larger one. Since it doesn't say that this only happens if you are large enough it happens even then if you are actually to short to count for the next size category. Considering that dwarves count as medium even if they are too short for the category because they are fat of their build it makes sense that they would count as large when they are still short enough to be medium. The spell makes them bigger, not thinner.

[zinycor]

I believe that most people how play DnD look at the spell and say: "Yeah, you get to the next size category." And I believe that's the way that it's intended to be.

[Bulldog Psion]

If we assume Hinjo is about 6 feet tall, then Durkon's about 18 feet tall in #453.

With that said, it's definitely Righteous Might, and the exact size doesn't matter except that it looks better to have Durkon looming over everyone, so that's how it's done, IMO. :smallsmile:

[dancrilis]

An example of none strict doubling can be seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html).
We know that mass enlarge person doubles the height by the rules but we can see that it seems to in fact quadruple it.
Much like Hel's Might and Thor's Might do (which might be somewhat different spells).

[Deprox]

The nicest part of rules lawyering is that, deep inside, one knows what really matters about the spell/class feature, but since the description has some unclearly written part (usually for fluff), one can argue about that for hours and not be wrong.

[factotum]

Consider it artistic license or a rules convenience. Or if that doesn't work for you, write the Giant a sternly worded letter. I'm sure it will matter a great deal.

What would be the point of that? :smallconfused: I'm the one arguing that Hel's/Thor's Might are homebrew spells that are not the same as Righteous Might. It makes zero difference to the story whichever way round it is, and the Giant has definitely used homebrew spells elsewhere in the comic--I have no problem with that. The only difference this makes is to the specific question asked in this thread, which is, "Is Hel's Might the same as Righteous Might?".

[dancrilis]

What would be the point of that? :smallconfused: I'm the one arguing that Hel's/Thor's Might are homebrew spells that are not the same as Righteous Might. It makes zero difference to the story whichever way round it is, and the Giant has definitely used homebrew spells elsewhere in the comic--I have no problem with that. The only difference this makes is to the specific question asked in this thread, which is, "Is Hel's Might the same as Righteous Might?".

I am personally dubious that if Thor's Might is Righteous Might that Thor's Might would be Hel's Might, it doesn't seem to offer many significant benefits to the undead.

[Psyren]

What would be the point of that? :smallconfused: I'm the one arguing that Hel's/Thor's Might are homebrew spells that are not the same as Righteous Might. It makes zero difference to the story whichever way round it is, and the Giant has definitely used homebrew spells elsewhere in the comic--I have no problem with that. The only difference this makes is to the specific question asked in this thread, which is, "Is Hel's Might the same as Righteous Might?".

Except we know how much effort the comic has shown spell research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) to require. So assuming it's a homebrew spell because of a quirk in the stick-figure art when there's a much simpler answer makes no sense to me.

[Snails]

I think we absolutely must trust that apparent size of something in a comic that is entitled "Not to Scale". What can possibly go wrong with that kind of logic?

IMNSHO the Giant is very purposefully making a dig the kind of analysis found in this thread. "Hel's Might" is clearly similar to "Thor's Might" that is clearly similar to "Righteous Might".

Whether is reasonably maps to the well known 5th level spell or is a specialty 6th or 7th level spell is not yet known. The apparent size is very weak evidence of anything important. The HPoH could well be Huge and yet this spell might prove inferior to the 5th level spell when fighting Roy. Extra size can very easily be a liability unless you have the feats to make grappling an effective tactic -- if you are dumb enough to simply try to grapple the AoO(s) can result in Roy killing you very quickly.

[Bulldog Psion]

If Durkon doubled in height, he'd be probably around 8 feet tall. He wouldn't look all that much larger than the humans in that case. This method of showing him highlights that he has gotten considerably bigger than his usual size.

Plus, like I said, it's more dramatic. And gave the opportunity for Julia's oxymoron joke. :smallwink:

[zimmerwald1915]

I am personally dubious that if Thor's Might is Righteous Might that Thor's Might would be Hel's Might, it doesn't seem to offer many significant benefits to the undead.
But it offers significant benefits to the vampire against Roy, mostly psychological. Thor'sHel's might has always been Durkon's Big Gun, the spell he pulls out when he gets serious. And to Roy's knowledge, it's never failed to get him devastating results. Given that this whole fight, for the vampire, has been about messing with Roy's head, that's powerful.

[dancrilis]

But it offers significant benefits to the vampire against Roy, mostly psychological. Thor'sHel's might has always been Durkon's Big Gun, the spell he pulls out when he gets serious. And to Roy's knowledge, it's never failed to get him devastating results. Given that this whole fight, for the vampire, has been about messing with Roy's head, that's powerful.

True, and I suspect that <God's> Might spells are that OOTS version of Righteous Might, but if the arguement is being made that they are instead a custom spell I would see no reason to expect them to all be the same custom spell (although in this case there would be no reason for them not to be either as we do not have the spec of that theoretical custom spell which might be very useful to the undead).

[Atomic Knight]

Just to chime in: The humor of "Not To Scale" has to do with the fact HPoH IS, indeed, scaling the balcony.

But... Like... I guess I don't see the significance of debating Hel's Might or Thor's Might or Righteous Might. So far, all we've been shown is a size increase. Until HPoH demonstrates a markedly new / different / unique ability, what's it matter? :)

[factotum]

Except we know how much effort the comic has shown spell research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) to require. So assuming it's a homebrew spell because of a quirk in the stick-figure art when there's a much simpler answer makes no sense to me.

Firstly, this is a spell actually provided by the Gods, not one that anyone had to research. Secondly, it's not just the size issue--it's also, why call the spell something else if it's actually the same thing? Your "simple explanation" completely ignores that point.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Many large creatures have always looked a bit bigger than expected in oots. The page Pyron linked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) contains what I think is a good example. I always figured Leeky Windstaff turned into a large bear there, still he grew to easily over twice Durkon's size, and Durkon then grew to the same size. It seems to be in the spirit of the D&D rules. Small and medium creatures are treated very much alike for purposes of easy gameplay, large is treated like clearly bigger than medium. Furthermore on pages like this Gods are shown to be approximately 4 times as large as presumably medium sized angels. They may be 5 or 6 times bigger, but it looks like definitely less than 8 times. Page 1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) seems to confirm this. Hel is about 6 times the size of the priests, which in my opinion feels more like her being just oversized for dramatic effect than as her being 3 size categories larger than them but of small stature. So the gods are probably huge. Durkon has climbed to the top of the rail and is still dwarfed (I have no regrets) by Hel further in the background.

(There are large creatures that are not drawn as clearly over twice the height of mediums (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0782.html), but in general they're more often drawn too large than too small.)


Firstly, this is a spell actually provided by the Gods, not one that anyone had to research. Secondly, it's not just the size issue--it's also, why call the spell something else if it's actually the same thing? Your "simple explanation" completely ignores that point.

Because Thor's might does not sound like a spell a cleric opposing Thor would like to use very much.

[Psyren]

Firstly, this is a spell actually provided by the Gods, not one that anyone had to research. Secondly, it's not just the size issue--it's also, why call the spell something else if it's actually the same thing? Your "simple explanation" completely ignores that point.

You mean like "Thor's Lightning" (which Malack instantly recognized as a 3rd-level spell, i.e. Lightning Bolt) or "Bixby's Crushing Hand?" The Giant doesn't use the strict PHB names for every spell in the comic; that doesn't make them "homebrew."

Your argument is based entirely on the names (shown above to be inexact) and stick-figure art (also known to be inexact.) In short, nothing concrete.

[littlebum2002]

I'm not so convinced--if the spell is just Righteous Might, why not just call it that? It's not like the Bigby's Hand spells, where the name "Bigby" is considered part of D&D brand identity and thus unable to be used in third-party works like OotS. That, and the fact both Thor's and Hel's Might seem to increase Durkon's size far more than Righteous Might would, suggest to me they're different spells.

(Also note that Hinjo explicitly said Thor's Might made Durkon "15 feet tall" in strip #453, so it tripled his size whereas Righteous Might explicitly doubles it).

Or, you know, it could just mean that his size increase is "Not To Scale". I mean, it's not like the author of the story gave us a hint to that effect or anything...

[durron597]

I believe that most people how play DnD look at the spell and say: "Yeah, you get to the next size category." And I believe that's the way that it's intended to be.

I completely agree.

Please note that, at the time I asked the original question, I was ballparking HPoH's height to be 25-30 feet, because I didn't realize he was climbing the wall.

Personally, I consider going from 4ft tall to 16ft tall to be a reasonable exercise of artistic license, regardless whether or not he should be 8ft tall in RAW. The reason for this question was because it seemed to me, at the time, that he was well beyond Large and at the upper range of Huge, which would have to be a different spell.

In other words, how The Giant chooses to render Large is entirely up to him; well, honestly, how he chooses to render anything is entirely up to him, obviously, but it would be pretty awkward / jarring to have the 5th level spell Righteous Might suddenly do a second size category increase, which is why I asked the question.


Is it possible that hel's might subs the con bonus for an additional size bonus? So instead of +2 to con (useless to hel's undead) you instead increase size by 2 size categories? So medium->large->huge?

This is also possible, and it wouldn't necessarily make the spell any higher level. We have not yet seen enough panels to reason about whether he's larger than he was in #453 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).