Polymorph

[MadBear]

In the niche situation that I'm fighting a group of baddies in a giant arena, and a group of reinforcements are about to come through the door, can I turn one of archers into a whale to block said door? With 90hp's it'd give us a few rounds to focus on the rest of the group and even possibly make our escape.

[Strill]

Yes you can.

[Blood of Gaea]

In the niche situation that I'm fighting a group of baddies in a giant arena, and a group of reinforcements are about to come through the door, can I turn one of archers into a whale to block said door? With 90hp's it'd give us a few rounds to focus on the rest of the group and even possibly make our escape.

Also, consider just casting an Minor Illusion on the door, make it look like the door disappear, or the door knob is on the wrong side. It will take them at least one turn to realize it's not real, and cost you no spell slots. :)

[Levism84]

Wasn't there something that gave a bonus to creatures against polymorph saves if the form wouldn't be viable for the environment, like a whale on land? That might be 3.5 sneaking into my brain. Either way, the DM might consider giving the archer advantage on the save if you turn the creature into a beast that doesn't have a land speed (such as a whale). Although, since it can survive (for a limited time) on land and doesn't breathe water, it might not get advantage after all. Just something to think about.

[Vogonjeltz]

In the niche situation that I'm fighting a group of baddies in a giant arena, and a group of reinforcements are about to come through the door, can I turn one of archers into a whale to block said door? With 90hp's it'd give us a few rounds to focus on the rest of the group and even possibly make our escape.

So long as it's valid per the rules of polymorph, why wouldn't you be able to?

[Shaofoo]

When you say archers do you mean your own archer or the enemy.

Because either way it won't work.

The whale would still be friendly to the enemy and they can freely move through the space though it is difficult terrain and if it was an enemy whale they can move through the space of an enemy that is two sizes larger or smaller than you so you can't prevent movement like that either since the whale is Huge so Medium is two sizes small. They might risk that huge Bite attack but it isn't an impassable obstruction.

Also there is the fact that a Killer Whale is CR 3 and the target needs to be of CR 3 or more to turn into a whale so just any archer wouldn't cut it.

Also I would also question the fact if the character would know that whales exist in this world but I am just going to assume that this is a world where whales exist and the character would know what a whale is.

But if I were to rule it, if you roleplayed it right and said that the big bad turned killer whale is squeezing the door shut then I would allow it being an impassable object but if you just tell me that you polymorph any target and hoping to cover the entrance I will go for the rules, you would have delayed the opposition but not prevent it.

[Slipperychicken]

Also I would also question the fact if the character would know that whales exist in this world


Whaling has literally existed since 3000 BC IRL. For a character who lives far from major fishing centers, I'd call it a Nature check of 10, maybe 15. Even if his people's entire culture was far removed from whaling (say in the middle of the desert), the D&D universe contains extremely prodigious researcher-adventurers, progenitor civilizations and their troves of knowledge, long-distance travelers who spread stories of exotic beasts, international communication that's instantaneous and free (Sending), as well as literal water-breathing, and the ability to ask the gods about this kind of stuff. Word tends to spread, so I'd call it a DC 20 nature check at the very most.

[Vogonjeltz]

Whaling has literally existed since 3000 BC IRL. For a character who lives far from major fishing centers, I'd call it a Nature check of 10, maybe 15. Even if his people's entire culture was far removed from whaling (say in the middle of the desert), the D&D universe contains extremely prodigious researcher-adventurers, progenitor civilizations and their troves of knowledge, long-distance travelers who spread stories of exotic beasts, international communication that's instantaneous and free (Sending), as well as literal water-breathing, and the ability to ask the gods about this kind of stuff. Word tends to spread, so I'd call it a DC 20 nature check at the very most.

So like a 1/5 chance they know about whales without knowing who we are talking about?

I'd put it more at 1/30, especially considering there will be entire populations that never even see an ocean.

[MaxWilson]

In the niche situation that I'm fighting a group of baddies in a giant arena, and a group of reinforcements are about to come through the door, can I turn one of archers into a whale to block said door? With 90hp's it'd give us a few rounds to focus on the rest of the group and even possibly make our escape.

Out of curiosity, are those homebrewed whale stats or did WotC publish some that I missed? If so, where?

Edit: oh, is this just the MM's Killer Whale? I could always make up my own stats for a Sperm Whale or Blue Whale but would be interesting to know of anything official.

[Doof]

Is there an exact clause for the knowledge requirement in Polymorph? Because Wild Shape (polymorph-lite for wilderness experts) requires a druid to have seen a beast in question for them to transform. I don't know if reading about a whale in a book or hearing a story about some real big fish from the local bard would qualify as proper knowledge in this case.

So if Bear Grylls can't wildshape into a wombat unless having seen one firsthand, it can't be fair for just any bookworm to transform people into one because they heard a story about it, can it?

[Slipperychicken]

The spell doesn't require special familiarity. But it is suspect to attempt to summon a creature which your character is not aware of.

If I were to specify them, I'd put them down as 1) that the creature is indeed real, and 2) the caster has a passable understanding of its physiology (you can still summon a lion if you think they're normally friendly to humans, but no dice if you think they have wings and horse-legs).


So like a 1/5 chance they know about whales without knowing who we are talking about?

I'd put it more at 1/30, especially considering there will be entire populations that never even see an ocean.

I wasn't clear on this, but for populations that haven't seen an ocean (there are plenty of ways for them to know regardless), I had it at DC 20. Accounting for below-average intelligence scores, that means less than 5% of the population, perhaps 2 or 3%, can recall a half-decent description of a whale. For someone who is reasonably smart and well-learned in all things natural, the chance improves greatly, but is still quite bad. Even a genius with 18 int who studies the natural world for a living (proficiency +2) has about a 35% chance to know about whales if he comes from one of those areas. If he got advantage from the use of a library or something, he still has less than a 60% chance to know. Which is somewhat depressing when you think about it.

[Doof]

Now I really want to convince a wizard about a completely fictitious creature and let him try to polymorph into one.

[Vogonjeltz]

The spell doesn't require special familiarity. But it is suspect to attempt to summon a creature which your character is not aware of.

If I were to specify them, I'd put them down as 1) that the creature is indeed real, and 2) the caster has a passable understanding of its physiology (you can still summon a lion if you think they're normally friendly to humans, but no dice if you think they have wings and horse-legs).

I'd say they had to know what the creature looks like, but I wouldn't require them to know anything about the nature of the creature. i.e. If they've seen a picture of a dragon, or have some mental comprehension of a dragon as a thing, they can polymorph a CR appropriate creature into a dragon (or at least a wyrm or whatever). But I wouldn't require them to be a dragonologist or seen a dragon in life, or fought one or whatever.

Presumably this is just a metagaming issue at heart. The player knows what an Orc is, but the character doesn't. So if they are trying to do something the character doesn't know about, they're just cheating. Feel free to penalize them.

[JackPhoenix]

Now I really want to convince a wizard about a completely fictitious creature and let him try to polymorph into one.

And that's how owlbears, griffons and many aberrations were created...

[Doof]

And that's how owlbears, griffons and many aberrations were created...

My amazement knows no bound. Mein gott you're right

[Malifice]

Also, consider just casting an Minor Illusion on the door, make it look like the door disappear, or the door knob is on the wrong side. It will take them at least one turn to realize it's not real, and cost you no spell slots. :)

Love that spell.

[Shaofoo]

Also, consider just casting an Minor Illusion on the door, make it look like the door disappear, or the door knob is on the wrong side. It will take them at least one turn to realize it's not real, and cost you no spell slots. :)

Sorry that is not how Minor Illusion works. You can create a sound or an image of an object, nothing that says that you can make objects or part of objects disappear. Otherwise you can just wear a sheet over your head and cast Minot Illusion on it to make it disappear and now you are Invisible without using a spell slot or concentration, definitely not intended like the way you are saying.

[Malifice]

Sorry that is not how Minor Illusion works. You can create a sound or an image of an object, nothing that says that you can make objects or part of objects disappear. Otherwise you can just wear a sheet over your head and cast Minot Illusion on it to make it disappear and now you are Invisible without using a spell slot or concentration, definitely not intended like the way you are saying.

Yeah. Superimpose an door in front of the door with no handle.

[Shaofoo]

Yeah. Superimpose an door in front of the door with no handle.

Minor Illusion has a limit that it can only make an object that can fit into a 5 foot cube and I am pretty sure that unless you are in a compound for small people only that most doors go way beyond the 5 foot mark. Also if the enemy actually owns and knows the compound and if magic is known as it should be then that trick won't work, they will know that the door was tampered with and would reach out without hesitation.

Sometimes it can work but most times it won't. It would be a good desperation tactic but don't be mad if I decide that it won't work because I play my enemies with logic.

[Dalebert]

Because either way it won't work.


You are absolutely technically correct, it seems to me. That said, I'd let it work for rule-of-cool reasons the first time just based on the facts of the matter--the whale is really, REALLY big, right in front of a medium-sized door, and it's completely immobile. Normally the idea is that a friendly creature is allowing you to pass. This one can't move out of the way even if it wants to. It may only threaten 9 squares which allow movement by medium creatures, but in this case, it's reasonable to think it's actually completely blocking just one square in front of the door. If you're willing to blow a 4th level slot to throw up a kinda crappy wall that's easily chopped down in two or three rounds, I'd say that's a creative way to do it.

The second time and thereafter, I would introduce reasonable complications that you might expect and roll for chances it didn't work out just right. Like maybe the whale's position isn't just right to block the door, a purely random thing. So now he has to fail his save and there's another effective "save" to see if he actually landed just right.

[NNescio]

On a tangential note, Minor Illusion is awesome when combined with Chill Touch, as it is one of the few spells (the only cantrip, IIRC) that is an attack but doesn't launch a projectile which can 'physically interact' with the illusion.

Throw in one level of Death Domain Cleric for Reaper...

Not too overpowered though, since you need one round setting this up, and the illusion can be ruined by anyone shooting a projectile through it (or spending an action to Investigate, but that wastes an action and only applies to the creature doing the Investigating, and can fail) since they know you're there (even if they still can't see you) after you attacked them. Most of the time you have better spells to cast.

[Shaofoo]

You are absolutely technically correct, it seems to me. That said, I'd let it work for rule-of-cool reasons the first time just based on the facts of the matter--the whale is really, REALLY big, right in front of a medium-sized door, and it's completely immobile. Normally the idea is that a friendly creature is allowing you to pass. This one can't move out of the way even if it wants to. It may only threaten 9 squares which allow movement by medium creatures, but in this case, it's reasonable to think it's actually completely blocking just one square in front of the door. If you're willing to blow a 4th level slot to throw up a kinda crappy wall that's easily chopped down in two or three rounds, I'd say that's a creative way to do it.

The second time and thereafter, I would introduce reasonable complications that you might expect and roll for chances it didn't work out just right. Like maybe the whale's position isn't just right to block the door, a purely random thing. So now he has to fail his save and there's another effective "save" to see if he actually landed just right.


If the whale was friendly to the enemy I would assume that even though he has an animal brain he would still regard his allies as his allies and he would try to get out of the way as much as possible, although he won't be able to do much he could still squirm and shift to get out of the way. The point is that the whale will be aware of the situation and wouldn't try to impede his friends if he can. The whale will impede the enemy but not prevent it because the whale doesn't want to prevent it.

If the whale was an enemy to the enemy I would rule that it is much more difficult because the whale would be actively thwarting the enemy and would be trying to stop the enemy. In this case I would definitely roll a saving throw for each enemy wanting to squeeze through and they still risk that massive bite.

Basically the former is taking an enemy out of the fight to slow down everyone else while the latter is taking a party member out to stop (or severely restrict) the enemy.

[MadBear]

Minor Illusion has a limit that it can only make an object that can fit into a 5 foot cube and I am pretty sure that unless you are in a compound for small people only that most doors go way beyond the 5 foot mark. Also if the enemy actually owns and knows the compound and if magic is known as it should be then that trick won't work, they will know that the door was tampered with and would reach out without hesitation.

Sometimes it can work but most times it won't. It would be a good desperation tactic but don't be mad if I decide that it won't work because I play my enemies with logic.

ok, I create an image of a giant pad-locked chain holding the door shut that stretches across the handle and is under 5ft long.

[NNescio]

ok, I create an image of a giant pad-locked chain holding the door shut that stretches across the handle and is under 5ft long.

Yannow, that kind of thing tends to be suspicious and prompt investigation. And touching.

[MadBear]

Yannow, that kind of thing tends to be suspicious and prompt investigation. And touching.

I agree, that's why it'd only work for up to 1 turn, b/c as soon as they interact with it, they know it's fake.

[Malifice]

Minor Illusion has a limit that it can only make an object that can fit into a 5 foot cube and I am pretty sure that unless you are in a compound for small people only that most doors go way beyond the 5 foot mark. Also if the enemy actually owns and knows the compound and if magic is known as it should be then that trick won't work, they will know that the door was tampered with and would reach out without hesitation.

Sometimes it can work but most times it won't. It would be a good desperation tactic but don't be mad if I decide that it won't work because I play my enemies with logic.

A five foot iron plank over the door would work. Make it look like the door is barred shut.

[Shaofoo]

A five foot iron plank over the door would work. Make it look like the door is barred shut.

You are assuming that as soon as they see the door they will just shrug and not even attempt to open it. I am talking about creatures that know the compound from inside out. I would probably rule that the enemy would still try to open the door an find that it can open it.

This trick depends on DM ruling. Such trickery would rarely work if the enemy knows the compound and there is a common knowledge of illusion magic. They might not be so keen to believe if they suddenly see a huge iron bar or a comically large padlock and chains cover the door, especially if they realize that there is a magic user in their presence.

This entire situation is DM fiat basically, the DM can easily have the enemy disbelieve because the illusion is too unbelievable to exist in reality.

But definitely you can't make things disappear with Minor Illusion.

[Malifice]

You are assuming that as soon as they see the door they will just shrug and not even attempt to open it. I am talking about creatures that know the compound from inside out. I would probably rule that the enemy would still try to open the door an find that it can open it.

This trick depends on DM ruling. Such trickery would rarely work if the enemy knows the compound and there is a common knowledge of illusion magic. They might not be so keen to believe if they suddenly see a huge iron bar or a comically large padlock and chains cover the door, especially if they realize that there is a magic user in their presence.

This entire situation is DM fiat basically, the DM can easily have the enemy disbelieve because the illusion is too unbelievable to exist in reality.

But definitely you can't make things disappear with Minor Illusion.

Everything is DM fiat. Depending on the monsters I would almost certainly allow it. It would buy at least a round or two anyways as they figured out what was going on.

Be hilarious watching them try too. A good DM would roleplay such antics out instead of goiing to extreme lengths like 'they're savvy to illusion Magic' rubbish.

[MadBear]

You are assuming that as soon as they see the door they will just shrug and not even attempt to open it. I am talking about creatures that know the compound from inside out. I would probably rule that the enemy would still try to open the door an find that it can open it.

This trick depends on DM ruling. Such trickery would rarely work if the enemy knows the compound and there is a common knowledge of illusion magic. They might not be so keen to believe if they suddenly see a huge iron bar or a comically large padlock and chains cover the door, especially if they realize that there is a magic user in their presence.

This entire situation is DM fiat basically, the DM can easily have the enemy disbelieve because the illusion is too unbelievable to exist in reality.

But definitely you can't make things disappear with Minor Illusion.

meh, then make a 5ft cube of deadly spikes in front of the door. That's something magic users can create on the fly, and if they're unlikely to ignore it even if they know there's a magic user present.

Long story short, use your imagination, and of course it's DM fiat, so is practically every/anything in the game.

[NNescio]

meh, then make a 5ft cube of deadly spikes in front of the door. That's something magic users can create on the fly, and if they're unlikely to ignore it even if they know there's a magic user present.

Long story short, use your imagination, and of course it's DM fiat, so is practically every/anything in the game.

The key trick is to alternate real objects with illusions.

Minor illusion of caltrops. Real caltrops. Minor illusion of floor overlapping real caltrops...

(Now, if the DM wants to be particular and insist on a singular object [while completely ignoring the example given of muddy footprints], then make something like an illusion of caltrops glued to the floor instead, or an illusion of caltrops joined by hairlike threads ala oldest Fabricate trick in the book.)

[Shaofoo]

Everything is DM fiat. Depending on the monsters I would almost certainly allow it. It would buy at least a round or two anyways as they figured out what was going on.

Be hilarious watching them try too. A good DM would roleplay such antics out instead of goiing to extreme lengths like 'they're savvy to illusion Magic' rubbish.

Sorry I just like to play my enemies with more intelligence than wheat grain. If an enemy suddenly sees an iron plank bolted onto the door he might deduce that no one would even bring about such a heavy object for the purpose of barring a single random door. This isn't extreme lengths but like I said I don't tend to artificially dump Int on my enemies so in your case it would be extreme if they were to deduce such thing if your enemies have the brain power of a wet match.

Does that make me a bad DM if I were to poke holes in your plan?


meh, then make a 5ft cube of deadly spikes in front of the door. That's something magic users can create on the fly, and if they're unlikely to ignore it even if they know there's a magic user present.

You do realize that deadly spikes are only deadly if you fall on them somebow. You can easily touch a deadly spike. Also anything outside high level magic could even create such a construct and also they might question who would place spikes in front of a door.


Long story short, use your imagination, and of course it's DM fiat, so is practically every/anything in the game.

It is not imagination, it is common sense. The point is to make something believable, you must temper your imagination with reason.

[MadBear]

You do realize that deadly spikes are only deadly if you fall on them somebow. You can easily touch a deadly spike. Also anything outside high level magic could even create such a construct and also they might question who would place spikes in front of a door.



It is not imagination, it is common sense. The point is to make something believable, you must temper your imagination with reason.


1. I agree that you must tempter imagination with reason.
2. You're telling me that if you were running up to a door and see sharp razor like spike protruding from the ground in front of the door, you're going to ignore it? You say you play your characters intelligently, but I can't imagine anyone with intelligence gambling that the spikes in front of a door can just be ignored. I'm not saying it'd slow them for more then a few seconds, but it should at least take an action to make sure you're not just going to impale yourself.

[Shaofoo]

1. I agree that you must tempter imagination with reason.
2. You're telling me that if you were running up to a door and see sharp razor like spike protruding from the ground in front of the door, you're going to ignore it? You say you play your characters intelligently, but I can't imagine anyone with intelligence gambling that the spikes in front of a door can just be ignored. I'm not saying it'd slow them for more then a few seconds, but it should at least take an action to make sure you're not just going to impale yourself.

I would move towards a spike that is sticking from the ground because a spike can't hurt me if I touch it from the non sharp points, which is all but the top since it is a spike. I can't imagine how could anyone hurt themselves on a spike if they aren't above it. There is no gamble, having a spike in front and a big iron cube would've had the same effect. Also the rules state that you can interact with objects as part of an action and movement so the enemy could walk up to the harmless spike and reach out to find nothing and go on his merry way.

[MadBear]

I would move towards a spike that is sticking from the ground because a spike can't hurt me if I touch it from the non sharp points, which is all but the top since it is a spike. I can't imagine how could anyone hurt themselves on a spike if they aren't above it. There is no gamble, having a spike in front and a big iron cube would've had the same effect. Also the rules state that you can interact with objects as part of an action and movement so the enemy could walk up to the harmless spike and reach out to find nothing and go on his merry way.

I'd point out that I could describe the trap in such a way that you couldn't easily navigate it, and it really feels like you're just nit-picking to nit-pick.

However, I could describe the bit to be:
"The ground in a 5 foot square twists and sprouts hard spikes and thorns."

the spiked growth spell apparently makes an area so dangerous that you can't move through it without taking damage. If I make a 5" cube look identical, then it follows that they shouldn't feel that they could move into it without taking damage.

[Tanarii]

Also the rules state that you can interact with objects as part of an action and movement so the enemy could walk up to the harmless spike and reach out to find nothing and go on his merry way.That'd count as trying to Investigate the Illusion, wouldn't it? Doesn't that take an action, and require a save?

Edit: Yeah it does.

If a creature uses its action to examine the sound or image, the creature can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the illusion becomes faint to the creature.

So at the very least, you've cost them an action (and thus a round). Maybe more if you've got a high DC and they're not very smart.

[Shaofoo]

I'd point out that I could describe the trap in such a way that you couldn't easily navigate it, and it really feels like you're just nit-picking to nit-pick.

However, I could describe the bit to be:
"The ground in a 5 foot square twists and sprouts hard spikes and thorns."

the spiked growth spell apparently makes an area so dangerous that you can't move through it without taking damage. If I make a 5" cube look identical, then it follows that they shouldn't feel that they could move into it without taking damage.

Well you said spike so it isn't my fault that you failed to properly describe a believable threat. Also the spike growth spell camouflages the area so it doesn't show that there are spikes there, so a savvy creature might find it odd that the equivalent of a springed trap appears in front of them plus that the spiked growth seems oddly smaller than usual. Of course this is a rarity but I would make it a possibility that the higher ups do have some knowledge on magic.

Sure your ideas could work but I will present knowledgeable enemies on the other side so don't be miffed if it doesn't work all the time.


That'd count as trying to Investigate the Illusion, wouldn't it? Doesn't that take an action, and require a save?

Edit: Yeah it does.

If a creature uses its action to examine the sound or image, the creature can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the illusion becomes faint to the creature.

So at the very least, you've cost them an action (and thus a round). Maybe more if you've got a high DC and they're not very smart.

Nice try, might wanna read up before your quote there.

It says that any physical interaction reveals it to be an illusion because things can pass through it. If something touches it then it immediately is known to be an image and thus the illusion is defeated, no DC checks at all needed. In fact there doesn't even need to be a personal physical interaction, the way it is written you could throw an object at it and that would count as physical interaction and thus defeat the illusion.

So at the very least nothing happens and you wasted an action. The DC check is useful if it is looked at from far away but if the creature is getting a chance to interact that illusion don't expect it to hold up much if at all, not even if the enemies had a single digit Int score. NOt that I always play my enemies as rock dumb either.

[NNescio]

Sorry I just like to play my enemies with more intelligence than wheat grain. If an enemy suddenly sees an iron plank bolted onto the door he might deduce that no one would even bring about such a heavy object for the purpose of barring a single random door. This isn't extreme lengths but like I said I don't tend to artificially dump Int on my enemies so in your case it would be extreme if they were to deduce such thing if your enemies have the brain power of a wet match.

That's what the Investigation skill is supposed to model. As DM you might (and it's reasonable) to grant them advantage if the illusion is too outlandish.

At most it'll slow them down a round. Which is quite sensible really, as you don't want to assume all things an illusionist does are illusions.

5e doesn't have disbelieve rolls or automatic-desbelieving. Intelligent enemies can either spend an action to investigate an illusion, or assume it's an illusion and just move through it (or shoot an arrow/toss an object through it). The latter approach can backfire sometimes.



You do realize that deadly spikes are only deadly if you fall on them somebow. You can easily touch a deadly spike. Also anything outside high level magic could even create such a construct and also they might question who would place spikes in front of a door.

They can either gingerly walk around it, spend an action to investigate it, assume it's an illusion and just plough through it (again, can backfire sometimes), or assume it's an illusion but still want to be careful by tossing an object onto it.

It'll slow them down slightly (usually only by one action, and not by one turn).

No more automatic disbelieve checks as in previous editions, which gave DMs carte blanche to screw illusionists all over (because what the player thinks is sensible may not be what the DM thinks is sensible. And really, not all creatures should ahve extensive knowledge of how spells work.)

[Malifice]

The key trick is to alternate real objects with illusions.

Minor illusion of caltrops. Real caltrops. Minor illusion of floor overlapping real caltrops...

(Now, if the DM wants to be particular and insist on a singular object [while completely ignoring the example given of muddy footprints], then make something like an illusion of caltrops glued to the floor instead, or an illusion of caltrops joined by hairlike threads ala oldest Fabricate trick in the book.)

Or just a 5' by 5' plank of wood with nails driven in it.

[Malifice]

Sorry I just like to play my enemies with more intelligence than wheat grain. If an enemy suddenly sees an iron plank bolted onto the door he might deduce that no one would even bring about such a heavy object for the purpose of barring a single random door.

What absurd reasoning. No-one thinks like that. Unless you knew you were up against an illusionist or something.

For example, if the PC's had placed an iron bar on the door, do your creatures just assume it's an illusion and spend rounds staring at it trying to disbelieve it?

[MadBear]

Well you said spike so it isn't my fault that you failed to properly describe a believable threat. Also the spike growth spell camouflages the area so it doesn't show that there are spikes there, so a savvy creature might find it odd that the equivalent of a springed trap appears in front of them plus that the spiked growth seems oddly smaller than usual. Of course this is a rarity but I would make it a possibility that the higher ups do have some knowledge on magic.

Sure your ideas could work but I will present knowledgeable enemies on the other side so don't be miffed if it doesn't work all the time.

I'd point you to the principle of charity when having a conversation. It's a jerk move to try and interpret someone in the worst way possible, and it's completely unproductive to having a conversation. However if you intend to purposefully interpret my words in the worst possible way, I'll make sure to type up entire paragraphs worth of description to carefully outline exactly what I'm saying since you can't be bothered to use common sense.

[Vogonjeltz]

Minor Illusion has a limit that it can only make an object that can fit into a 5 foot cube and I am pretty sure that unless you are in a compound for small people only that most doors go way beyond the 5 foot mark. Also if the enemy actually owns and knows the compound and if magic is known as it should be then that trick won't work, they will know that the door was tampered with and would reach out without hesitation.

Sometimes it can work but most times it won't. It would be a good desperation tactic but don't be mad if I decide that it won't work because I play my enemies with logic.

I'd go with superimposing a 5 foot stone that appears to be merged with the adjoining walls (assuming a 5 foot passage).

Otherwise make it appear that the handle and lock have fused. The enemy might spend time trying to pry the merely closed door open, or go for another entrance. Magic might be 'known' but there's no reason they wouldn't assume it was a real effect and not a fake. Unless you think if an Evoker melted the lock they would think it's an illusion and try to open it anyway.

If the NPCs are only assuming it's a fake or not depending on what the DM knows, then the real problem is that the DM can't keep their knowledge and character knowledge divided.

[Malifice]

I'd go with superimposing a 5 foot stone that appears to be merged with the adjoining walls (assuming a 5 foot passage).

Shafoos villians are illusion savvy. They know when to expect an illusion. They also know when not to.

Somehow.

[Shaofoo]

That's what the Investigation skill is supposed to model. As DM you might (and it's reasonable) to grant them advantage if the illusion is too outlandish.

At most it'll slow them down a round. Which is quite sensible really, as you don't want to assume all things an illusionist does are illusions.

5e doesn't have disbelieve rolls or automatic-desbelieving. Intelligent enemies can either spend an action to investigate an illusion, or assume it's an illusion and just move through it (or shoot an arrow/toss an object through it). The latter approach can backfire sometimes.


They can either gingerly walk around it, spend an action to investigate it, assume it's an illusion and just plough through it (again, can backfire sometimes), or assume it's an illusion but still want to be careful by tossing an object onto it.

It'll slow them down slightly (usually only by one action, and not by one turn).[/quote]

Depending on the action the enemy could touch the illusion as part of a manipulate object action that can take place in conjuction of an action


No more automatic disbelieve checks as in previous editions, which gave DMs carte blanche to screw illusionists all over (because what the player thinks is sensible may not be what the DM thinks is sensible. And really, not all creatures should ahve extensive knowledge of how spells work.)

No, creatures should not have extensive knowledge of spells (at least creatures that are not trained in spells, if they know spells then they should) but creatures should have reason to believe if something is off way too much than what even magic can do(at the low levels, at higher levels then magic can do a lot more but then the enemy should have much more resources). As an illusionist you still need to create something that it plausible enough for someone to actually believe. Notice that if you read back I didn't attack the mention of caltrops, illusion caltrops are actually much more believable in deterring the enemy than just trying to barricade the door.


What absurd reasoning. No-one thinks like that. Unless you knew you were up against an illusionist or something.

For example, if the PC's had placed an iron bar on the door, do your creatures just assume it's an illusion and spend rounds staring at it trying to disbelieve it?

That depends, if the enemy had a supply of iron bars and nails then it is plausible that the players could've found some and then use that an then it would be believable.

But if the enemy doesn't have that on them then I will probably not believe that someone lugged a huge iron bar for the purpose of barring a single door. Unless the scouts have brought reports of a huge person carrying large iron bars on his person then I probably wouldn't believe that they were able to affix such a thing without picking it up form somewhere.

But you can still think of other things to prevent the door from opening.


I'd point you to the principle of charity when having a conversation. It's a jerk move to try and interpret someone in the worst way possible, and it's completely unproductive to having a conversation. However if you intend to purposefully interpret my words in the worst possible way, I'll make sure to type up entire paragraphs worth of description to carefully outline exactly what I'm saying since you can't be bothered to use common sense.

You failed to properly describe the spike. A spike growing from the ground would have its point sicking into the air, go play any 2D platform game with spikes and that is what I imagined the moment you said spikes (and that you reinforced with further explanation). This isn't the worst way, it was the best way that I could make it work outside the enemy wanting to commit suicide and leaping onto the spikes. A Spike Growth effect is in no way spikes from the ground, it does contain spikes but it isn't the only component. . I believe I was using common sense, if you don't believe so then I feel that you must explain yourself further how a simple spike could be dangerous when approached at the bottom.

If you wish to disseminate for your own pleasure then feel free but I feel like I was being charitable (I did give that your Spike Growth could work for all but the knowledgeable on spells). But i feel that you are coming from a place of pure anger, I am sorry if I ruffled some feathers.


I'd go with superimposing a 5 foot stone that appears to be merged with the adjoining walls (assuming a 5 foot passage).

Otherwise make it appear that the handle and lock have fused. The enemy might spend time trying to pry the merely closed door open, or go for another entrance. Magic might be 'known' but there's no reason they wouldn't assume it was a real effect and not a fake. Unless you think if an Evoker melted the lock they would think it's an illusion and try to open it anyway.

You can't change the appearance of an object, you can only create the image of an object. Depending on the interpretation you can't create an image over an actual existing object unless you spend time trying to recreate a melted lock image over the real lock. But then again depending on the context it might not work (you might have melted the lock but the enemy knows the door is unlocked before so a damaged lock does nothing to the door, that includes both actually melting the lock and an illusion).



Shafoos villians are illusion savvy. They know when to expect an illusion. They also know when not to.

Somehow.

If my villain knows magic then you better believe he is savvy, he won't be deterred by a simple cantrip. Even a well worn and long lived villain who has seen magic in his life might be able to know the tell tale signs of illusion magic because he has seen it before and probably a lot if it apparently it is the go to spell for many wizards if what I am reading is to be believed.
To me illusion magic is like CGI and photoshop, eventually you might be able to tell the difference between practical and effects at a glance.

Note that we are talking about Minor Illusion and not the bigger illusion spells so I don't have a problem with Illusionists actually using their spell slots to fool on a whim, especially when other senses are involved. EVen Silent Image is better because Silent Image gives the illusion of movement but Minor Illusion is a still image.

But I think we are already way too off topic guys, this is about Polymorph and not illusions, if we wish to discuss illusions further then maybe just make a new topic about it or drag up the other old illusion topics

[MadBear]

You failed to properly describe the spike. A spike growing from the ground would have its point sicking into the air, go play any 2D platform game with spikes and that is what I imagined the moment you said spikes (and that you reinforced with further explanation). This isn't the worst way, it was the best way that I could make it work outside the enemy wanting to commit suicide and leaping onto the spikes. A Spike Growth effect is in no way spikes from the ground, it does contain spikes but it isn't the only component. . I believe I was using common sense, if you don't believe so then I feel that you must explain yourself further how a simple spike could be dangerous when approached at the bottom.

If you wish to disseminate for your own pleasure then feel free but I feel like I was being charitable (I did give that your Spike Growth could work for all but the knowledgeable on spells). But i feel that you are coming from a place of pure anger, I am sorry if I ruffled some feathers.

I'm not coming from a place of anger, but rather I'm pointing out that your interactions in this thread have been poor. Even in your reply you seem incapable of understanding what the principle of charity is, so I'm happy to share it.


The Principle of Charity is a methodological presumption made in seeking to understand a point of view whereby we seek to understand that view in its strongest, most persuasive form before subjecting the view to evaluation.

So when I said that you could have spikes sticking out in front of the door, there is a bit of vagueness to that statement. There are a number of ways that you could go about interpreting that statement, including the way that you did. However, you also know the goal of what my statement was trying to accomplish (slowing an enemy down). If you take my statement and apply it to the goal there is no way that you can arrive at the conclusions you did.

This is why I have criticized you for not using the principle of charity. In other words, your wasting time in the discussion quibbling over how I make a 5ft square look too dangerous to walk through. We both know that with a proper description, it is possible to describe an illusion within a 5ft square that looks impossible/close to impossible to pass through without damage. Now, rather then address that point, you instead chose to interpret my words (and others in this threads words) in such a way that it doesn't work. Doing this isn't conducive to a discussion, because it merely hinders the conversation from moving forward.

(also as the OP of the thread, I don't mind having it be completely off the rails.)

[Shaofoo]

So when I said that you could have spikes sticking out in front of the door, there is a bit of vagueness to that statement. There are a number of ways that you could go about interpreting that statement, including the way that you did. However, you also know the goal of what my statement was trying to accomplish (slowing an enemy down). If you take my statement and apply it to the goal there is no way that you can arrive at the conclusions you did.

Except I gave you my train of thought that let me come to my conclusion and in no way could I construe your intention as anything that could be threatening to the enemy. This isn't being charitable, this is going against logic. You want me to just take you to the desired result without actually planting a plausible reason how to get there. You want me to make the enemy afraid to get anywhere near them so you just make a bunch of spikes stick from the ground, when the latter would never reach the former in any logical way.

Sorry but I don't believe that this is charity, you might have your intention but your planning falls flat, it does not work because you failed to make a plausible situation.


This is why I have criticized you for not using the principle of charity. In other words, your wasting time in the discussion quibbling over how I make a 5ft square look too dangerous to walk through. We both know that with a proper description, it is possible to describe an illusion within a 5ft square that looks impossible/close to impossible to pass through without damage. Now, rather then address that point, you instead chose to interpret my words (and others in this threads words) in such a way that it doesn't work. Doing this isn't conducive to a discussion, because it merely hinders the conversation from moving forward.

Notice how when I pushed you then you come up with a better example on how to actually make the square more dangerous? I believe that such actions are good to make events more plausible.

Let me give you an example, if I were to say that I want to fill the 5ft cube from minor illusion as a big fire, would that give the enemies pause?

Also I find it a bit odd that you would think me being against people isn't conductive to discussion, I have responded the points and if you don't agree with me then that is your decision but saying as if I am preventing discussion is kinda short sighted an self centered. Did I prevent anyone from speaking or attacked anyone for speaking directly? I believe that discussion is the exchange of ideas, not the unanimous agreement on a topic.

[Vogonjeltz]

You can't change the appearance of an object, you can only create the image of an object. Depending on the interpretation you can't create an image over an actual existing object unless you spend time trying to recreate a melted lock image over the real lock. But then again depending on the context it might not work (you might have melted the lock but the enemy knows the door is unlocked before so a damaged lock does nothing to the door, that includes both actually melting the lock and an illusion).

Ok, rephrase since my meaning did not convey: Fuse the door-frame. So it appears that the door will not open. Of course you can create an image over an object, it just involves recreating the image of that 5 foot section, but looking different.


To me illusion magic is like CGI and photoshop, eventually you might be able to tell the difference between practical and effects at a glance.

I'd say it's more like it's real. As in, there's no way to know the difference without interaction or investigation, per the spell. Until that time, it looks legit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for holding spells to the exact limits of what they say they can do, but I applaud creative use of those limits. Illusions are the best example of this in that most illusion spells really don't have an enforced effect, it's up to the player to come up with a creative narrative use which the DM can then examine to say: Is this cool? Fun? Creative? Worth rewarding?

In a magical universe I just don't see much reason for an enemy who has no experience with this particular Wizard to assume that they didn't ACTUALLY fuse the door frame or melt the lock, or whatever. It would only be suspicious if they had substantial experience with illusions, to the point that it was more likely that a clearly magical occurance was fake than real. And even then, depending on what the illusion is, it could be life threatening if you get it wrong.

Which would be a darkly hilarious universe in that people would be getting killed constantly by assuming real hazards, and monsters and dragons were just illusions and practical jokes. (A shortly lived Guard Captain: Fools! That isn't a real bonfire that mage is just trying to trick us with an illusion, follow me, I'm going in! OH PELOR MY SKIN ....IT BURNS!!!!)