Dualwield optimization

[Spacehamster]

So one of our new players wants to play a dual wield pc but is aware that they are sub-par compared to all other fighting styles, so I thought I would ask here what the best possible build would be, multi classing is allowed and any races and feats aswell. :)
Any ideas is appreciated, can be both str and dex based.

[Rusvul]

One possible option is to take a level of Warlock or a few levels of Ranger for Hex/Hunter's Mark, as those spells benefit a lot from multiple attacks.

[Kryx]

Dual wielding, as you say, is not optimal. It is especially bad after 11.

If a player wants to use it I'd suggest altering base twf so that at 11 if both weapons hit then the target gets tended (rend damage equal to double proficiency)

That helps a significant amount, though if you use -5/+ you'd have to do even more to make twf competitive with GWM or polearm.

[Jamesps]

So one of our new players wants to play a dual wield pc but is aware that they are sub-par compared to all other fighting styles, so I thought I would ask here what the best possible build would be, multi classing is allowed and any races and feats aswell. :)
Any ideas is appreciated, can be both str and dex based.

Rogues are the exception to the "dual-wield isn't optimal" bit. Rogues actually drastically increase their damage output by dualwielding as it gives them multiple opportunities to land their sneak attack, effectively operating as a damage multiplier for sneak attack.

Example: Say you fight an enemy and you have a 50/50 chance of hitting. This means on average you'll do 3.5/2=1.75 damage per sneak attack dice.

If you dual wield you'll get two shots at getting your sneak attack for a 75% chance, or an average of 2.625 damage per sneak attack die. That's a .875 damage increase per die.

The extra damage from the weapon is also a nice bonus particularly at early levels.

[Kryx]

One possible option is to take a level of Warlock or a few levels of Ranger for Hex/Hunter's Mark, as those spells benefit a lot from multiple attacks.
Both use the bonus action which makes them much less good.

[bid]

If you dual wield you'll get two shots at getting your sneak attack for a 75% chance, or an average of 2.625 damage per sneak attack die. That's a .875 damage increase per die.
It's less than that with advantage, but yeah.

The other way is to MC any class with extra attack:
- fighter 5 for twf or archery style
- monk 5 for mobility and stun
- ranger 5 for colossus slayer and hunter's mark
- paladin 5 for smite and abjure enemy
- bladelock 5 for hex

Your SA will be reduced by 2d6 but add at least 1d6+5, you still keep your offhand 3rd attack and you gain utilities.

[Coidzor]

It's less than that with advantage, but yeah.

The other way is to MC any class with extra attack:
- fighter 5 for twf or archery style
- monk 5 for mobility and stun
- ranger 5 for colossus slayer and hunter's mark
- paladin 5 for smite and abjure enemy
- bladelock 5 for hex

Don't forget Barbarian 5 for super grapples/shoves if you put an Expertise in Athletics, unarmored defense, rage as a purely defensive buff, and 40' move speed.

[Ardantis]

Of the rogue subclasses, the UA Swashbuckler is best because he is designed for melee, getting sneak attacks when alone in melee and being able to taunt and crowd control enemies to him. He's also got the right flavor for a dual wielder, more so than Ranger even. I would consider it both mechanically and thematically.

[Mara]

So one of our new players wants to play a dual wield pc but is aware that they are sub-par compared to all other fighting styles, so I thought I would ask here what the best possible build would be, multi classing is allowed and any races and feats aswell. :)
Any ideas is appreciated, can be both str and dex based.
Step 1: Take the dual wielding feat.

And your done. You have to have 5 regular attacks before dueling does more damage.

Most optimal is mounted combat dual wielding lances.

[bid]

You have to have 5 regular attacks before dueling does more damage.
Erm wait...
- dueling rapier is 1d8+2+5 = 11.5
- twf rapier is 1d8+5 = 9.5
TWF does +9.5 with bonus action, so you indeed need 5 attacks to balance out.
{That's after 3 ASI/feat while at level 5 DW does 1d8+3 while dueling/ASI does 1d8+2+4. That's 22.5 vs 21 damage or 3 attacks.}

But DW is a feat, so you should give shield master or something to compensate.
- shoving down, dueling rapier has advantage and hits 15/20 = 11.5 * 2 * 15/20 = 17.25
- twf hits 10/20 = 9.5 * 3 * 10/20 = 14.25

So DW needs to have advantage half the time to match shield master.

[Mara]

Assuming the shove gives advantage...

[Vogonjeltz]

Don't forget Barbarian 5 for super grapples/shoves if you put an Expertise in Athletics, unarmored defense, rage as a purely defensive buff, and 40' move speed.

Grappling requires a free hand, which is not really an option for two weapon fighting.

Fighter is probably the best option because they don't have a bonus action except for second wind, and they get the fighting style so the second attack is probably as good as the first, and they have ASI to pick up useful feats.

Rogue isn't bad, but it's competition for cunning action, which is probably a better use of the bonus action.

[MeeposFire]

Grappling requires a free hand, which is not really an option for two weapon fighting.

Fighter is probably the best option because they don't have a bonus action except for second wind, and they get the fighting style so the second attack is probably as good as the first, and they have ASI to pick up useful feats.

Rogue isn't bad, but it's competition for cunning action, which is probably a better use of the bonus action.

Cunning action is better whenever you have already dealt SA damage but if you failed to hit with your one attack two weapon fighting is probably the better option that round.

[djreynolds]

Can a paladin use a smite on an off-hand attack or are they both competing for the bonus action since the smite spells are 1 bonus action?

[Gnomes2169]

Can a paladin use a smite on an off-hand attack or are they both competing for the bonus action since the smite spells are 1 bonus action?

The smite class feature (and improved smite) does not require any actions to function, and is typically more important for DPS than the smite spells (which you can concentrate on for one minute).

[Spacehamster]

Were thinking 12 fighter battlemaster, 4 ranger for hordebreaker and hunters mark(sure costs an bonus action but lasts for an hour and can be moved) and 4 barbarian for rage and resistance to most things. Makes him robust and gets as many attacks as a 20 fighter thanks to hordebreaker if there is enemies close to eachother. Medium armor and str based(he has rolled stats that is good enough for the mc req of ranger so thats no problem).

[MrStabby]

Possibly a combat caster could work well enough - the arguments for rogue boosts for second chances on attacks work for domain d8s on clerics. With dualwielding you can get the second attack that would otherwise be missing for less of a hit to your casting abilities.

[DivisibleByZero]

How dual wielding works at our table (houserules abound):

The TWF style and the Dual Wielder feat have been changed.
The feat now offers a +1 AC bonus, the ability to draw two weapons, and adds modifier to damage.
The style now allows one to use weapons without the light property.
This means that anyone can now effectively dual wield, but only fighters and rangers can do so with better weapons.
If you have the Extra Attack feature and are fighting with two weapons (thus disallowing monks unless the monk is forgoing their martial arts extra attack and flurry) then at level 11 your bonus action attack via TWF allows two off-hand attacks rather than one.
To compensate, Flurry now offers three attacks for one Ki spent at monk level 11.

Casters and Rogues:
2 attacks (one normal, one bonus)

Rangers, Pallys, Valor Bards, Bladelocks, Barbs, etc (anyone with Extra Attack):
level 1: 2 attacks (one normal, one bonus)
level 5: 3 attacks (two normal, one bonus)
level 11: 4 attacks (two normal, two bonus)

Fighters:
level 1: 2 attacks (one normal, one bonus)
level 5: 3 attacks (two normal, one bonus)
level 11: 5 attacks (three normal, two bonus)
level 20: 6 attacks (four normal, two bonus)

There you go. TWF is now viable for any class, and is competitive with other weapon/style choices.

[Vogonjeltz]

Were thinking 12 fighter battlemaster, 4 ranger for hordebreaker and hunters mark(sure costs an bonus action but lasts for an hour and can be moved) and 4 barbarian for rage and resistance to most things. Makes him robust and gets as many attacks as a 20 fighter thanks to hordebreaker if there is enemies close to eachother. Medium armor and str based(he has rolled stats that is good enough for the mc req of ranger so thats no problem).

Spells can't be cast or concentrated on while raging.

[Jamesps]

Spells can't be cast or concentrated on while raging.

Yeah, what he said. I'd drop ranger altogether. You're going to find he's going to kill things quickly enough that he just won't have his bonus action available very often because you need it to move hunter's mark.

[Spacehamster]

Spells can't be cast or concentrated on while raging.

Damn I thought you could not cast spells while raging but if you already have one in place you could still concentrate on it, that kinda sucks. :(
Altho does it really matter, with 4 levels ranger you do not gain many spells and with 4 levels barb you do not get many rages, so basically when
you are out of rage you use hunters mark and when out of hunters mark you use rage, just gives more resources to spread over the day. :)

[djreynolds]

If you are a dexterity based archer and are now in melee, two weapon fighting may be more effective considering it takes an entire action to don a shield, but with dual wield feat its free to draw two weapons. So in this case its better than just using a rapier even with the +2 damage bonus of duelist style because you have an extra attack, because you could miss with the other attacks and now you have a bonus attack you "could" hit with.

[Spacehamster]

He decided to go crit fishing build half orc 13 barb, 4 champion and 3 hunter, dual wield style and the style that lets you climb and swim at full speed. Gives 3 attacks(4when horde breaker is possible) and 3 extra die when critting. And the 19-20 crit with the advantage on hit from barbarian should help fishing out lots of crit. Bear totem so that the advantage vs him wont mean as much.

We start at level 6 so he is 5 barb 1 fighter right now and will take fighter to 4 for 2nd ASI then the 3 ranger for horde breaker.

[Ardantis]

Funny, nobody mentioned crit-fishing as a reason for dual-wield this entire thread! Kudos to your player for doing his research (and building such a bone-crushing build!)

I'm gonna make one last plug for Swashbuckler...

Bonus action attack is a viable contender for the bonus action vs. cunning action because they tend to be used in different circumstances- and the circumstance in which the bonus attack is useful is the circumstance for which the Swashbuckler has mechanical advantages and features.

Thank you.

[Kryx]

Funny, nobody mentioned crit-fishing as a reason for dual-wield this entire thread!
No one mentioned it because TWF does it worse than Polearm. TWF has less attacks (no polearm provoke) and less damage from a crit (lower damage die)

[Spacehamster]

No one mentioned it because TWF does it worse than Polearm. TWF has less attacks (no polearm provoke) and less damage from a crit (lower damage die)

True, they should have made dual wielding the only way to get a bonus attack, that way it would be as good as the other styles. Or made it one free attack instead of bonus attack and when you get extra attack feature you can choose to make a 2nd offhand attack as a bonus action.

This build is better with getting one more armor at least and feels more like a barbarian then polearm since that kinda feels like a knights weapon. Main reason for him not choosing any form of two handed build is that we already got two players using that and one sword and board. :)

[Kryx]

This build is better with getting one more armor at least and feels more like a barbarian then polearm since that kinda feels like a knights weapon. Main reason for him not choosing any form of two handed build is that we already got two players using that and one sword and board. :)
Agreed that TWF should be a viable option - which is why I buff it like I mentioned. I think it's unfortunate that by RAW it is horrendously bad.

[Spacehamster]

Dual wielding, as you say, is not optimal. It is especially bad after 11.

If a player wants to use it I'd suggest altering base twf so that at 11 if both weapons hit then the target gets tended (rend damage equal to double proficiency)

That helps a significant amount, though if you use -5/+ you'd have to do even more to make twf competitive with GWM or polearm.

Instead of double prof rend damage it could be +3 damage for each attack that hits IF your offhand hits too, that way the more times you hit the more the enemy bleeds. :)

[Kryx]

Instead of double prof rend damage it could be +2(3?) damage for each attack that hits IF your offhand hits too.
I wouldn't make it that complex. Nor make it based on number of attacks as that can hugely change the value.

Basically you'd have to math out what is equivalent to +12 damage at 20. 3x2 for ranger is 6. 3x4 for fighter is 12. Ranger is already behind in TWF (ok by my charts as ranger has spells).

[Spacehamster]

I wouldn't make it that complex. Nor make it based on number of attacks as that can hugely change the value.

Basically you'd have to math out what is equivalent to +12 damage at 20. 3x2 for ranger is 6. 3x4 for fighter is 12. Ranger is already behind in TWF (ok by my charts as ranger has spells).

Thats what would make it cool tho, bleeding from lots of cuts should damage more then from two cuts no? :) anyways I think the solution of making the offhand attack a free attack and at 11 give you the option to make a 2nd offhand strike as a bonus action if you have extra attack feature feels like a easier solution. :)

[Kryx]

Thats what would make it cool tho, bleeding from lots of cuts should damage more then from two cuts no? :) anyways I think the solution of making the offhand attack a free attack and at 11 give you the option to make a 2nd offhand strike as a bonus action if you have extra attack feature feels like a easier solution. :)
2nd offhand is pretty good mathematically, but would lag behind the rend option.

I wouldn't make the bonus attack a free though.

[Tanarii]

Agreed that TWF should be a viable option - which is why I buff it like I mentioned. I think it's unfortunate that by RAW it is horrendously bad.
I disagree. The problem is that RAW the *optional* Feats Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master are overpowered. Not that Two Weapon Fighting is underpowered. Without those optional feats it has its place.

Given that they are optional and overpowered, there's no particular reason for a DM to allow them.

Edit: I admit it's a problem for AL. Broken/unbalanced options for characters has always be a problem with official play. We'll just have to wait for the option that overpowers TFW as much as Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master and Sharpshooter do the air respective styles. I'm sure it'll come eventually. I have faith that WotC can release further broken options. ;)

[Spacehamster]

2nd offhand is pretty good mathematically, but would lag behind the rend option.

I wouldn't make the bonus attack a free though.

With a mundane weapon it would lag behind but with magic weapons thrown into the mix extra offhand would prob be better. :)

[Naanomi]

You use two whips to maximize awesome/ridiculousness... Not the worst option for Paladins relying on smite damage, battlemasters concerned with battlefield manipulation over damage, or eldritch Knights self-hasting for 6 silly attacks.

The end result is that it is not optimal in almost all cases, but not by so much that if you just want to be cool you feel ashamed for having taken the option (like 3.x)

[Jeebs]

I like a Half Orc Champion Fighter with the Dual Wielder feat. You have more/bigger crits, and if you take Defense as your second Fighting Style, your AC is equal to most shield users, but you have a Bonus Action Attack. You're a tanky character first and foremost.

I sometimes like Medium Armor/Stealth proficiency more than an extra point or two of AC.

I like Half Elves if you're more interested in having Skills/out of combat utility versus pure TWF utility.

[Coidzor]

2nd offhand is pretty good mathematically, but would lag behind the rend option.

I wouldn't make the bonus attack a free though.

What about as part of scaling at higher levels? Say have the first offhand attack become part of the regular attack action at level 10, just before it starts to lag behind, and the second offhand attack requires the bonus action?

[Kryx]

I disagree. The problem is that RAW the *optional* Feats Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master are overpowered. Not that Two Weapon Fighting is underpowered. Without those optional feats it has its place.
By RAW without feats or with feats TWF is a terrible option:

A Greatsword Fighter does 20 DPR at 5, 37 at 11, 44 at 17, and 58 at 20.
A TWF Fighter does 18 DPR at 5, 31 at 11, 37 at 17, and 47 at 20.

Even if you take away tripping and action surging which you find questionable based on resources used per adventuring day:

A Greatsword Fighter does 15 DPR at 5, 28 at 11, 28 at 17, and 38 at 20.
A TWF Fighter does 13 DPR at 5, 23 at 11, 23 at 17, and 30 at 20.

RAW TWF is awful in comparison to a greatsword.



Given that they are optional and overpowered, there's no particular reason for a DM to allow them.
I agree that -5/+10 feats shouldn't be allowed, but that doesn't fix TWF.




With a mundane weapon it would lag behind but with magic weapons thrown into the mix extra offhand would prob be better. :)
This was tested before. TWF loses even more with magic weapons due to Polearm having more attacks. It evens the playing field a bit for GWM and TWF though.




What about as part of scaling at higher levels? Say have the first offhand attack become part of the regular attack action at level 10, just before it starts to lag behind, and the second offhand attack requires the bonus action?
The issue with removing a bonus action cost is you're altering the delicate balance that a TWF Ranger and Fighter have. Removing it, or lessening it, makes the Ranger more competitive on top of having spells. Based on my math I wouldn't adjust bonus action costs.
Nor would I use the extra bonus attack. It's just not enough - Rend does more and balances out TWF with GWM and Polearm really well. An extra bonus attack wouldn't be enough.

[bid]

What about as part of scaling at higher levels? Say have the first offhand attack become part of the regular attack action at level 10, just before it starts to lag behind, and the second offhand attack requires the bonus action?
It'd be better if DW's bonus action was 2 attacks at class level 11. Then a fighter would go 2/1, 3/2, 5/3, 6/4 and from level5 onward spending the bonus action would increase DPR by 1.5 to 1.67.

[Tanarii]

A Greatsword Fighter
A TWF Fighter

RAW TWF is awful in comparison to a greatsword.
Fair enough. Historically, TWF has never been intended for a single class fighter to use. It's kind of strange to try and use that as the determining benchmark now, although I understand why you'd do that ... after all it's right there on the list of Fighter Fighting Styles.

TWF historically (edit: in D&D history) AND currently is a style that emphasizes the necessity of landing at least one hit to trigger some other ability. That is its place, not competing with Str-based Great Weapon Fighters. It's a fighting style for Rangers and Rogues, and in this edition Warlocks and Paladins and Bards (via magical secrets) can also get use out of it. Why do Fighters get it as a style at all is the question? So that Dex-Champion Archers have an effective pick after Archery when they get their second style? For fighters who can find a way to stack static bonuses, which aren't common in 5e anyway? Because their name says "Fight" right in it?

So yeah, I concede that for Fighters specifically, the Fighting Style is under-powered regardless of feats.

[Naanomi]

Also remember that spreading the attack into smaller packets can have tactical advantages... I'd rather dual wield at 1d4+5 than fight with a two handed at 1d10+10 if my opponent is clouds of 5 HP pixies

Of course pole arm master throw much of that out the window

[Kryx]

So yeah, I concede that for Fighters specifically, the Fighting Style is under-powered regardless of feats.
It's not just bad for Fighter or bad based on the fighting style. It's just bad in general.




Also remember that spreading the attack into smaller packets can have tactical advantages... I'd rather dual wield at 1d4+5 than fight with a two handed at 1d10+10 if my opponent is clouds of 5 HP pixies

Of course pole arm master throw much of that out the window
In my eyes more potential targets is worth ~5% DPR. TWF's only role is DPR - he should be able to do it competitively.

[Spacehamster]

Best way to optimize dual wield is making a good dw build with a halfling since they can´t use heavy weapons anyways, so the barb, champion, hunter build I linked is fine for them. :D
+ the idea of a halfling barbarian is kinda awesome lol

[Ardantis]

I just find it weird that the class which benefits most from TWF is the Rogue, a class not designed to use it at all. Worst part is, taking Crossbow Mastery gives them the exact same benefit except at range...

[Spacehamster]

I just find it weird that the class which benefits most from TWF is the Rogue, a class not designed to use it at all. Worst part is, taking Crossbow Mastery gives them the exact same benefit except at range...

Now that I think of it hunter 3 assassin 17 would be quite amazing? loose 1d6 sneak attack, 1 main hand attack 1 offhand attack and 1 horde breaker attack.

[bid]

Now that I think of it hunter 3 assassin 17 would be quite amazing? lose 1d6 sneak attack, 1 main hand attack 1 offhand attack and 1 horde breaker attack.
Hunter 5 for a 3rd attack. It works from level 8 onward.

[Jamesps]

I just find it weird that the class which benefits most from TWF is the Rogue, a class not designed to use it at all. Worst part is, taking Crossbow Mastery gives them the exact same benefit except at range...

Two weapon fighting with rogues is featless, so they're not really comparable.

Also with the new swashbuckler, using TWF gives you far less dependency on companions as you can sneak attack with melee weapons even when you don't have advantage.

[Spacehamster]

Hunter 5 for a 3rd attack. It works from level 8 onward.

quite a decent build from lvl 2 tbh when you get the 2 weapon style, and at 3 when you already have possiblity of 3 attacks you are bound to out damage
most builds, question is. squeeze in 3 levels champion or battlemaster there too for more crit during normal rounds or for superiority die and additional
fighting style, protection or archery or the one that gives move speed for swim and climb comes to mind. Oh and action surge is nice too!

Edit: now that I think of it a melee build with rogue levels is probably not the best with assassin since surprise crits would be much harder to pull off in melee compared to ranged no?