D&D 3.5 Orbs of Dragonkind Questions

[GeminiVeil]

So, my DM has seen fit to grant me one of the Orbs in our game. The orbs in questions are the ones straight out of the 3.5 DMG (with some minor modifications, that don't have any bearing on the questions) and I have a couple questions on them. If it matters at all, I have the black one.

Q1- The Orb says that they 'bestow upon the wielder the AC and saving throw bonuses of the dragon within. These values replace whatever values the character would otherwise have, whether they are better or worse. These values cannot be modified by any means short of ridding the character of the Orb." Is that the specific things referenced in the dragon statblock, or is that total value?
To be more specific, using saving throws as the example, do I gain the base saves regardless of my base saves? Or do I gain the total save in place of my total save?

Q2- For the Armor Class, similar question. Can my AC no longer be changed at all, even from Armor, even though the only thing the Orb actually gives is Natural Armor and a -2 from size?

Thanks for any feedback.

[nedz]

This is quite badly written and may belong in the dysfunctional rules thread


The Orbs of Dragonkind

Each of these fabled orbs contains the essence and personality of an ancient dragon ... Each Orb of Dragonkind bestows upon the wielder the AC and saving throw bonuses of the dragon within. These values replace whatever values the character would otherwise have, whether they are better or worse. These values cannot be modified by any means short of ridding the character of the Orb.

Ancient Black Dragon
Fort +23 Ref +17 Will +20
AC 38 (-2 size,+30 natural)

Reading this straight then your saves and AC are as above.

But there are other interpretations.

You could redact the dragon's stats from the saving throw bonuses and then apply your own stats and items; treating the AC bonus as +30 natural also.

I'm afraid you will have to ask your DM, sorry.

[Draconium]

That is... quite horribly written. Seriously, it's completely unclear on what exactly you're supposed to be getting. The total AC? Just the natural armor bonus? The base saving throws? The total saving throws? It's confusing.

Personally, I would rule it that you would gain the natural armor bonus and base saving throw bonuses of the dragon. The AC bonus is of a base dragon (of that kind) of your HD, and is modified by your own Dexterity modifier and size modifier, but doesn't stack with other modifiers. The saving throws are as a base dragon of your HD, modified by your own ability score modifiers, but they gain no other modifiers (including ones gained from feats or enchantment modifiers).

That seems fairly reasonable to me. It gives you some nice stuff, without really giving you a reason to use only that Orb of Dragonkind. Of course, I don't know how others would view it.

EDIT: Alternatively, you could have it so it just replaces your base saves and base natural armor bonus, and stacks with other things normally. It's a bit more powerful, and gives you another reason to keep it around, but it could work, since the Orbs are artifacts.

Just be sure not to use one of those Orbs on me. :smallamused:

[GeminiVeil]

This is quite badly written and may belong in the dysfunctional rules thread



Ancient Black Dragon
Fort +23 Ref +17 Will +20
AC 38 (-2 size,+30 natural)

Reading this straight then your saves and AC are as above.

But there are other interpretations.

You could redact the dragon's stats from the saving throw bonuses and then apply your own stats and items; treating the AC bonus as +30 natural also.

I'm afraid you will have to ask your DM, sorry.

Well, we have come up with a ruling that fits us, so that's not too big of an issue. Just wondering if there was RAW, or at least a consensus, in case it was ever used in another game or something. Never really read them before.


That is... quite horribly written. Seriously, it's completely unclear on what exactly you're supposed to be getting. The total AC? Just the natural armor bonus? The base saving throws? The total saving throws? It's confusing.

Personally, I would rule it that you would gain the natural armor bonus and base saving throw bonuses of the dragon. The AC bonus is of a base dragon (of that kind) of your HD, and is modified by your own Dexterity modifier and size modifier, but doesn't stack with other modifiers. The saving throws are as a base dragon of your HD, modified by your own ability score modifiers, but they gain no other modifiers (including ones gained from feats or enchantment modifiers).

That seems fairly reasonable to me. It gives you some nice stuff, without really giving you a reason to use only that Orb of Dragonkind. Of course, I don't know how others would view it.

EDIT: Alternatively, you could have it so it just replaces your base saves and base natural armor bonus, and stacks with other things normally. It's a bit more powerful, and gives you another reason to keep it around, but it could work, since the Orbs are artifacts.

Just be sure not to use one of those Orbs on me. :smallamused:

For all the parts you posted about the HD, as nedz quoted, it is actually from an ancient dragon of the type associated with the Orb. Which IS very OP, but at the same time, it IS a major artifact. (we have limited that, as well, BTW)

What about non-magical effects? Such as a halfling's +1 to all saves?

Actually, we have a half black dragon in the group. He was chaotic evil, but recently had an alignment change happen to him. Hopin I don't have to use it on him. lol

[Draconium]

For all the parts you posted about the HD, as nedz quoted, it is actually from an ancient dragon of the type associated with the Orb. Which IS very OP, but at the same time, it IS a major artifact. (we have limited that, as well, BTW)

What about non-magical effects? Such as a halfling's +1 to all saves?

Actually, we have a half black dragon in the group. He was chaotic evil, but recently had an alignment change happen to him. Hopin I don't have to use it on him. lol

Well, I think there does have to be a limit. After all, a DC 25 Will save isn't all that difficult to beat for a dragon, and they tend to have minions as well, so if you carry around an Orb of Dragonkind, you're pretty much asking to be attacked. But if you have the AC and saves of an ancient dragon, then you won't have any other reason to give it up, and as a DM, I personally think that's not a very good thing for players to get into their heads. (Just my personal opinion, by the way.)

In any case, what I described above (probably the second option I gave) is what I'd usually use in a game if my players came across an Orb. Gives them a bit of a reason to keep it, but they are willing to ditch it if it becomes necessary - they would easily be able to make up for the lost AC and saves, and they don't have a target painted on their backs anymore.

[BowStreetRunner]

So, just curious. How big is the orb you posses? There is no size mentioned in the artifact description in the DMG. I recall the Dragon Orbs from Dragonlance and the Palantir from Lord of the Rings were pretty large.

I also noticed that the abilities of the orb are keyed to its 'bearer'. The effects cannot be modified in any way short of 'ridding the character of the Orb'. So is this something that works when you have it out, but when you put it away that turns it off?

[GeminiVeil]

Well, I think there does have to be a limit. After all, a DC 25 Will save isn't all that difficult to beat for a dragon, and they tend to have minions as well, so if you carry around an Orb of Dragonkind, you're pretty much asking to be attacked. But if you have the AC and saves of an ancient dragon, then you won't have any other reason to give it up, and as a DM, I personally think that's not a very good thing for players to get into their heads. (Just my personal opinion, by the way.)

In any case, what I described above (probably the second option I gave) is what I'd usually use in a game if my players came across an Orb. Gives them a bit of a reason to keep it, but they are willing to ditch it if it becomes necessary - they would easily be able to make up for the lost AC and saves, and they don't have a target painted on their backs anymore.

Agreed. I even suggested to the DM that I should only get the things from the Adult dragon rather than the Ancient, just because it didn't seem all that balanced to me.

I am not sure what the DM has planned with me and the Orb, so I don't know. It does seem to be a 'dragon-centric' campaign so far.


So, just curious. How big is the orb you posses? There is no size mentioned in the artifact description in the DMG. I recall the Dragon Orbs from Dragonlance and the Palantir from Lord of the Rings were pretty large.

I also noticed that the abilities of the orb are keyed to its 'bearer'. The effects cannot be modified in any way short of 'ridding the character of the Orb'. So is this something that works when you have it out, but when you put it away that turns it off?

Hm. In that case, extremely small. :smallredface: I didn't even think to ask about the size, but I believe that it was described as coming from a small-ish container. I've been kind of figuring that it kind fit in my Halfling's hand. I will ask later, though, when I see the DM next.

I don't have any extraplanar bags or anything, so I have been assuming that as long as I have it on my person, I get the bonuses. Didn't even realize about 'bearer' and 'wielder'.