Broadening 4 elements Monk.

[MrStabby]

Like a lot of people I am not a huge fan of the 4 elements monk. In terms of power, it seems fairly modest, it seems less characterful than other classes and for a caster it does nothing it cant do as a martial.

My suggestion is to broaden it and follow a similar progression but with more spells open.

At third level you chose one of warlock, wizard, sorcerer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin or ranger.

At third level you learn a cantrip from the chosen class if available.

At third level you learn two level 1 spells from your chosen class

From third level You may cast a spell you know of level 5 or lower using Ki rather than a spell slot. You may use a spell slot up to level 5 and use ki equal to the spell level. If the spell has a material component that is consumed or that has a noted value you must provide it.

At 6th level you learn one level two or lower spell from your chosen class

At 11th level you learn one spell of level 4 or lower from your chosen class

At 17th level you learn one spell of 5th level or lower from your chosen class



I think this would allow some more characterful builds - you can still have elemental monks, but can focus on an element. You can create a monk of the long death by taking spells like inflict wounds or a hermit monk in touch with the wild through druid spells.

Practically it would support multiclassing slightly better as you can use Ki to cast other classes spells and their spell slots for "monk" spells.

Would anyone allow this at their table? Would anyone forbid it? Any obvious problems?

[Shaofoo]

While I do agree that Elemental Monks needs more options (especially they should've had more options with the Elemental Evil player book) but just giving them carte blanche on all spells is too much on the other direction and inevitably ruins the whole theme much more than the limit that we have currently. I do not care for your other characterizations, if you want those then you can multiclass and choose feats already in the game.

Also you will have to consider that the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster both are limited to wizard spells and then only limited to two schools of magic though they could have three any spells from the wizard list if they get high enough.

Also you seem to ignore that the formula for casting spells with ki is spell level + 1.

I would prefer that they get some sort of spell list and let them choose than just giving 4 spells from anywhere.

The only way to fix this is basically too difficult to say in any single phrase and will invariable ruffle the feathers of people that hate having the DM have final say but basically every other level you can learn a spell that is "monk character level / 4 rounded up or down as appropriate" level that would be considered elementally relevant. We could basically pour through all the spells in the game and come up with an actual list of elementally thematic spells but I would just let the DM have full say over what goes and what doesn't. And that casting those spells requires spell level + 1 ki to cast it.

Also another thing is that the monk gets access to two elemental non damaging cantrips and elemental attunement for free and gets one more at 11th level.

[Ardantis]

Giving 'any reasonably elemental spell' with DM approval is also ripe for abuse. Weaker DMs could get steamrolled.

What the Elements Monk needs is a unique spell list, not unlike the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster. I would make it a subset of Druid or Sorcerer.

[Shaofoo]

Giving 'any reasonably elemental spell' with DM approval is also ripe for abuse. Weaker DMs could get steamrolled.

Hence why I said that it isn't a true fix, also it can be the other way around and could give the DM an iron fist to deny spells left and right, only giving one particular spell per level.

An unique monk spell list is the best way to resolve this basically. But in lieu of just going through all the spells and picking which one is thematic I would just let the players choose and pick and then I'd allow or veto if I were to play it.

[CNagy]

Honestly, when I was reading the Rune Scribe prestige class runes, I was thinking "now this is what the Elemental Monk should have had" in terms of a variety of abilities, some free, some passive, and some with associated costs.

[Nifft]

Honestly, when I was reading the Rune Scribe prestige class runes, I was thinking "now this is what the Elemental Monk should have had" in terms of a variety of abilities, some free, some passive, and some with associated costs.

Seconded.

I bet a Shadow Monk 6 / Rune Scribe 5 would make an Elemental Monk 11 very sad.

[MrStabby]

I am genuinely surprised at some of the responses here. I can see a role for a caster monk - like the caster thief and caster fighter but I couldn't see the case for it being elemental themed or even the spells being damage themed.

Regarding multiclassing, you can do this more easily with fighters and rogues - spells from two casting classes can be shared across both slots and access to higher slots scales from both classes.


Regarding casting - I did make a mistake on the 1 ki per level rather than the 1+1 ki per level. I don't really know which is more reasonable.


I didn't think giving them a broader, but still strongly themed list of spells would be a bad thing. They get each spell so many levels behind casting classes, so many fewer times per day and in no combination that a casting class couldn't take anyway so I thought the risk of it being too powerful was pretty tiny.

Any elemental spell would seem very modest (of same level as currently given by an ability) (where an elemental spell is one that has an effect inflicts elemental damage + earth air, fire, water manipulation). I cannot see what spells a Monk could get this way that a full caster could not have got at half the level. Most of these, at the level they would be accessed, would not be worth an action let alone Ki.

[Shaofoo]

I am genuinely surprised at some of the responses here. I can see a role for a caster monk - like the caster thief and caster fighter but I couldn't see the case for it being elemental themed or even the spells being damage themed.

The caster fighter and caster rogue are also thematic, Fighters mostly get Abjuration and Evocation while Rogues get Illusion and enchantment. The case is because that is how the monk is presented, you wanted to broaden the 4 elements monk and expand on the theme, not replace the 4 elements monk with the anyspellclass monk..


Regarding multiclassing, you can do this more easily with fighters and rogues - spells from two casting classes can be shared across both slots and access to higher slots scales from both classes.

It is irrelevant to the discussion, I still don't see a reason to give a blank check to pilfer spells from any class. It is basically stepping in the toes of the Bard as well, if you want spellcasting flexibility then you go Bard, not Monk. Also how well a class multiclasses should not enter into balance discussion. A class should only be balanced with other classes on its own, not how well you can mix classes.


I didn't think giving them a broader, but still strongly themed list of spells would be a bad thing. They get each spell so many levels behind casting classes, so many fewer times per day and in no combination that a casting class couldn't take anyway so I thought the risk of it being too powerful was pretty tiny.

Yes, I actually agree that a monk should get less casting opportunities and casting powers than a full caster because a monk has many other tools at his disposal than the full caster has. This is the opportunity cost that you must pay. If you want to cast spells then play a casting class.

Also considering that his Ki recharges every short rest he can have a lot more spell uses depending on the day. You might draw parallels to the Warlock but the monk has it much better because the Warlock can only cast 4 spells per short rest no matter what the spell is but the Monk could cast up to 10 spells per short rest.

In fact the monk's actual progression is more akin to the half caster than the third caster that the Fighter and Rogue must use since the Monk can have access to 5th level magic by 17th level while the fighter and rogue gets their 4th level magic at 19th level.


Any elemental spell would seem very modest (of same level as currently given by an ability) (where an elemental spell is one that has an effect inflicts elemental damage + earth air, fire, water manipulation).

There are a lot of elemental spells that do not have to deal damage, the various Walls is a good place to look for non damaging spells and hold person was given an elemental edge in the actual 4 elements options as well. They exist you just have to look for them (and this is why I say we should either have a list or give the DM since a lot of spells could turn out to be thematically appropriate if given the right edge), of course then I would say this is where the DM needs to pay attention to the spells selected (for example I would never ever let the Monk choose a healing spell even if given an elemental edge because Monks shouldn't be able to heal especially having his spells recover on a short rest.)



I cannot see what spells a Monk could get this way that a full caster could not have got at half the level. Most of these, at the level they would be accessed, would not be worth an action let alone Ki.

Like I said before, if you want a spellcasting monk there should be some sacrifices and considering that the Monk has his spells recovering on a short rest and at half spellcaster progression basically while the Fighter and the Rogue have their spells recharge on a long rest and at third caster progression I say the Monk has it pretty well right now. The only thing that hurts him is the lack of options especially when there are so many available; the only think that Elemental Monks need is a spell list to choose their abilities, no changes to the inner workings of the class is necessary.

[Kryx]

Crowdsourced Fix of Way of the Four Elements Monk Subclass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412907-Crowdsourced-Fix-of-Way-of-the-Four-Elements-Monk-Subclass)

The version I prefer: Way of the Four Elements: Remastered (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view)

[MrStabby]

Crowdsourced Fix of Way of the Four Elements Monk Subclass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412907-Crowdsourced-Fix-of-Way-of-the-Four-Elements-Monk-Subclass)

The version I prefer: Way of the Four Elements: Remastered (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view)

Yeah. I am not really a fan of either of those as they don't take the monk outside the shackles of the elemental theme.

I think it would be good to be able to create characters like a Nature themed Hermit Monk with Entangle, spike growth, Plant Growth, Grasping vine and treestride as spells. I would enjoy a monk of the long death with Inflict wounds, gentle repose, speak with dead, death ward and contagion.

[Kryx]

I think it would be good to be able to create characters like a Nature themed Hermit Monk with Entangle, spike growth, Plant Growth, Grasping vine and treestride as spells. I would enjoy a monk of the long death with Inflict wounds, gentle repose, speak with dead, death ward and contagion.
Well, it's monk of the four elements, not 4 elements + nature and death!

Though I agree those two concepts are great - I'd love to see them as well.

[MrStabby]

Well, it's monk of the four elements, not 4 elements + nature and death!

Though I agree those two concepts are great - I'd love to see them as well.

Yeah, a name change would be required.

I just thought that there were a lot of cool concepts to play with.

[JellyPooga]

The problem with the 4-elements Monk is that the class, as a whole, is poorly designed in terms of trying to consolidate mechanics for all classes.

Spellcasters all dip from the same pool, Martials are all on the same page, but the Monk...the Monk has its own spell-point-esque mechanic in the form of Ki and that's what screws things up.

They obviously wanted a third-caster Archetype for the Monk, like the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, but giving them casting on top of Ki points was either deemed too powerful or too complicated.

Personally, I'd redesign the whole Monk Class. I'd remove Ki from the base class and introduce it as a mechanic for one of the Archetypes, probably Open Hand. The Way of Shadow would get spell-like abilities usable per short or long rest and 4-Elements would be a third-caster getting Evocation and Divination from the Cleric list (off the top of my head; I haven't given this a lot of thought) as the spells they can choose from and give them a choice of "Domains" unique to the Archetype.

In place of the Ki powers of the base class, I'd either un-limit them (for things like FoB) or put a (Wis mod)/day or 1/short rest on the more powerful ones.

This is just some rough ideas, but that's the sort of direction I'd go with it.

[djreynolds]

The problem with the 4-elements Monk is that the class, as a whole, is poorly designed in terms of trying to consolidate mechanics for all classes.

Spellcasters all dip from the same pool, Martials are all on the same page, but the Monk...the Monk has its own spell-point-esque mechanic in the form of Ki and that's what screws things up.

They obviously wanted a third-caster Archetype for the Monk, like the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, but giving them casting on top of Ki points was either deemed too powerful or too complicated.

Personally, I'd redesign the whole Monk Class. I'd remove Ki from the base class and introduce it as a mechanic for one of the Archetypes, probably Open Hand. The Way of Shadow would get spell-like abilities usable per short or long rest and 4-Elements would be a third-caster getting Evocation and Divination from the Cleric list (off the top of my head; I haven't given this a lot of thought) as the spells they can choose from and give them a choice of "Domains" unique to the Archetype.

In place of the Ki powers of the base class, I'd either un-limit them (for things like FoB) or put a (Wis mod)/day or 1/short rest on the more powerful ones.

This is just some rough ideas, but that's the sort of direction I'd go with it.

That's a great idea. In the meantime, I've been contemplating an elemental monk/ tempest cleric, obviously no need for the heavy armor and martial weapons, but then again nature cleric could be cool as well.

[Shaofoo]

Yeah, a name change would be required.

I just thought that there were a lot of cool concepts to play with.

The Monk could have a lot of cool concepts just like every class but the problem is that monks have their spells key off a short rest than a long one. If you really want to then why don't you just follow the Unearthed Arcana and give a cleric/druid/warlock sublcass instead of the monk subclass, those three subclasses can give spells and are thematic and you don't have to mess around with the 4 Elements monk, of course it'll be very broken especially if you just give a Cleric domain like that but that it is why it is Unearthed Arcana so you can tweak it as you see fit.


The problem with the 4-elements Monk is that the class, as a whole, is poorly designed in terms of trying to consolidate mechanics for all classes.

Spellcasters all dip from the same pool, Martials are all on the same page, but the Monk...the Monk has its own spell-point-esque mechanic in the form of Ki and that's what screws things up.

They obviously wanted a third-caster Archetype for the Monk, like the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, but giving them casting on top of Ki points was either deemed too powerful or too complicated.

Personally, I'd redesign the whole Monk Class. I'd remove Ki from the base class and introduce it as a mechanic for one of the Archetypes, probably Open Hand. The Way of Shadow would get spell-like abilities usable per short or long rest and 4-Elements would be a third-caster getting Evocation and Divination from the Cleric list (off the top of my head; I haven't given this a lot of thought) as the spells they can choose from and give them a choice of "Domains" unique to the Archetype.


In place of the Ki powers of the base class, I'd either un-limit them (for things like FoB) or put a (Wis mod)/day or 1/short rest on the more powerful ones.

It seems like a bit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you want to just reorganize the monk to remove all ki. It doesn't matter if the Monk is different from other classes that doesn't make them bad or complicated and the monk doesn't have to play nice with the other class just so things can end up smoothly, not every class has to be multiclass friendly.

The class is fine, giving finer control over their own powers with ki, putting everything on a short rest means that every ability is available while with ki you can lock out abilities from being able to play if you have abused an ability too much but it does give you the ability to abuse that ability if you want to. If you Flurry of Blows and Stunning Fist constantly you will eventually run out that you can't use the other abilities but maybe you wanted to constantly spam those actions because you are in the thick of combat, with the short rest maybe you can only use Flurry of Blows and Stunning fist a couple of times before you can't and then you have abilities that aren't so useful.

[JellyPooga]

It seems like a bit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you want to just reorganize the monk to remove all ki. It doesn't matter if the Monk is different from other classes that doesn't make them bad or complicated and the monk doesn't have to play nice with the other class just so things can end up smoothly, not every class has to be multiclass friendly.

The class is fine, giving finer control over their own powers with ki, putting everything on a short rest means that every ability is available while with ki you can lock out abilities from being able to play if you have abused an ability too much but it does give you the ability to abuse that ability if you want to. If you Flurry of Blows and Stunning Fist constantly you will eventually run out that you can't use the other abilities but maybe you wanted to constantly spam those actions because you are in the thick of combat, with the short rest maybe you can only use Flurry of Blows and Stunning fist a couple of times before you can't and then you have abilities that aren't so useful.

I won't argue that your points are valid; they are.

However, the Monk is a definite outlier with regards to multiclassing. Bringing it back in line with the other classes would encourage fringe builds that include features from the class instead of limiting those builds to being "flavour" or "fluff" builds.

Ki is not a bad mechanic, per se, when you take the class in a vacuum. It is limiting when you try to combine it with other classes as it only scales with Monk levels. The same could be said for the Warlock or Sorcerer, but both of those have their own integration with other (spellcasting) classes; the Sorcerer because Metamagic can be applied to non-Sorcerer casting (which scales with other spellcasting classes) and the Warlock because Pact Magic can be used to cast non-Warlock spells more frequently (assuming a dearth of short rests). The Monk, on the other hand, has nice options for sure, but none of those options stack up with other classes.

Case in point; the 4-elements Monk is supposed to be the "spellcasting archetype" Monk, but doesn't stack with other spellcasting classes. If you want to be an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight with greater focus on spellcasting, you can multiclass a host of other classes to do so. If you want to be a 4-elements Monk with greater focus on spellcasting, your only option that's worth a damn is to keep on with Monk. Adding Wizard to 4-elements Monk doesn't make you a better spellcaster, it makes you a poor spellcaster for your level.

All I'm saying is that perhaps 4-elements Monk should stack with other spellcasting classes. Unfortunately, the most intuitive way this will happen is probably to redesign the entire Class to either lose Ki altogether or limit it to one of the Archetypes, whilst giving 3rd-casting to 4-elements.

To give each Monk ability its own per-day or per-rest limitation based on a stat or not, is not so different from other classes (see Bard and Paladin, off the top of my head). I just think the Monk is too...different from other classes, as if the developers felt it should stand apart from the rest, for some reason. It doesn't fit the same design principles, in my mind. I'd like it to be otherwise, but that would require an overhaul of the Class.

[Shaofoo]

I won't argue that your points are valid; they are.

However, the Monk is a definite outlier with regards to multiclassing. Bringing it back in line with the other classes would encourage fringe builds that include features from the class instead of limiting those builds to being "flavour" or "fluff" builds.


I personally would never consider multiclass compatibility to be a factor when thinking about the potential ability or balance of a class and considering that multiclass is considered to be an optional facet of the game I think that the designers didn't (or shouldn't) consider multiclassing to be a potential point when it comes to class design. Multiclass should conform to the classes, not the other way around.

If you really want to then you can just crib the already in place formula of making a slot equal to spell level + 1 ki and you can only make a slot of a level up to your monk level / 4 rounded up. Also I would probably say you can only use that slot to cast spells and nothing else (so no turning slots into Sorcery Points or Divine Strike or the like).

[BladeWing81]

I won't argue that your points are valid; they are.

However, the Monk is a definite outlier with regards to multiclassing. Bringing it back in line with the other classes would encourage fringe builds that include features from the class instead of limiting those builds to being "flavour" or "fluff" builds.

Ki is not a bad mechanic, per se, when you take the class in a vacuum. It is limiting when you try to combine it with other classes as it only scales with Monk levels. The same could be said for the Warlock or Sorcerer, but both of those have their own integration with other (spellcasting) classes; the Sorcerer because Metamagic can be applied to non-Sorcerer casting (which scales with other spellcasting classes) and the Warlock because Pact Magic can be used to cast non-Warlock spells more frequently (assuming a dearth of short rests). The Monk, on the other hand, has nice options for sure, but none of those options stack up with other classes.

Case in point; the 4-elements Monk is supposed to be the "spellcasting archetype" Monk, but doesn't stack with other spellcasting classes. If you want to be an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight with greater focus on spellcasting, you can multiclass a host of other classes to do so. If you want to be a 4-elements Monk with greater focus on spellcasting, your only option that's worth a damn is to keep on with Monk. Adding Wizard to 4-elements Monk doesn't make you a better spellcaster, it makes you a poor spellcaster for your level.

All I'm saying is that perhaps 4-elements Monk should stack with other spellcasting classes. Unfortunately, the most intuitive way this will happen is probably to redesign the entire Class to either lose Ki altogether or limit it to one of the Archetypes, whilst giving 3rd-casting to 4-elements.

To give each Monk ability its own per-day or per-rest limitation based on a stat or not, is not so different from other classes (see Bard and Paladin, off the top of my head). I just think the Monk is too...different from other classes, as if the developers felt it should stand apart from the rest, for some reason. It doesn't fit the same design principles, in my mind. I'd like it to be otherwise, but that would require an overhaul of the Class.

I don't think I'm ok with this, removing the ki mechanic just so that it can be stacked with other spellcasting classes is not a good reason to redesign it. I think the base class is great and the 4-element archetype just needs a little work, mainly just like the homebrew version. lower the ki cost of the spells, add a second spell per feature level, and add some new cantrips that mainly focus on the unarmed attacks, sorta like what the open hand technique does with flurry of blows, The new spell cantrip greenflame blade seems like a great candidate for what I'm thinking that should be added as a 4 element monk cantrip list.
My reasoning for this is that the ki point system makes the class unique and because at the end of the day the monk is a melee (support) class and needs to stay that way. The way of the 4 elements is not a bad Idea, its just badly designed.
To be honest I think with a few cantrips that don't spend ki points that are focused on improving the Monks melee attacks and allow for some surviveability like moving away from an enemy once the monk lands a hit would make it an incredibly powerful achetype.

[JellyPooga]

I personally would never consider multiclass compatibility to be a factor when thinking about the potential ability or balance of a class and considering that multiclass is considered to be an optional facet of the game I think that the designers didn't (or shouldn't) consider multiclassing to be a potential point when it comes to class design. Multiclass should conform to the classes, not the other way around.

It's a fair point.

I'll note two things, however; first, that the Monk (particularly 4-elements) is the only class that really suffers as badly from multiclassing within their "role". As I mentioned, the EK and AT can multiclass with any caster and be a "more spellcasty EK/AT", whilst the 4-elements can't whilst staying competitive.

The second is that Feats are also an optional rule and certain classes definitely start falling behind the curve without them; so much so, that I can't help but think that those classes were designed with Feats in mind. That, however, is another argument I'd rather not get into. I just wanted to point out that just because it's an optional rule, it shouldn't be ruled out of the design process.


If you really want to then you can just crib the already in place formula of making a slot equal to spell level + 1 ki and you can only make a slot of a level up to your monk level / 4 rounded up. Also I would probably say you can only use that slot to cast spells and nothing else (so no turning slots into Sorcery Points or Divine Strike or the like).

This feels too much like a "fudge" to me (and it's just my opinion). I'd rather see something more elegant and intuitive; which as I say, would require a redesign.


...at the end of the day the monk is a melee (support) class and needs to stay that way. The way of the 4 elements is not a bad Idea, its just badly designed.

Similarly, the Rogue is a skill-monkey/striker and the Fighter is a tank/controller, but they both have their respective spellcasting archetypes that stack up with other spellcasting classes and features. Why does the Monk not enjoy this boon?

I agree that the 4-elements is badly designed. I like the idea of a Monk with supernatural powers akin to spellcasting. What I don't like is that the 4-elements Monk; a poor imitation of a true spellcaster, can only improve his spellcasting by staying as a Monk. If he multiclasses to a full-caster class, because he doesn't want to be just a melee (support) character, he doesn't actually get better at spellcasting.

[BladeWing81]

Similarly, the Rogue is a skill-monkey/striker and the Fighter is a tank/controller, but they both have their respective spellcasting archetypes that stack up with other spellcasting classes and features. Why does the Monk not enjoy this boon?

I agree that the 4-elements is badly designed. I like the idea of a Monk with supernatural powers akin to spellcasting. What I don't like is that the 4-elements Monk; a poor imitation of a true spellcaster, can only improve his spellcasting by staying as a Monk. If he multiclasses to a full-caster class, because he doesn't want to be just a melee (support) character, he doesn't actually get better at spellcasting.

I feel that multiclassing shouldn't be an answer to correct something, it should be to sinergise with the class you already are. The monk should be a different kind of spellcaster different from the rogue or the figther archetypes, the obvious go to is avatar the last airbender, the monk from diablo 3, the 3 stroms from big trouble in little china where the spells where a part of their martial arts and so should the 4 element monk, it should go hand in hand with their ability to strike strong blows, flash through and hit multiple enemies, trip and disorient his oponents. All of these things using the elements.

[JellyPooga]

I feel that multiclassing shouldn't be an answer to correct something, it should be to sinergise with the class you already are. The monk should be a different kind of spellcaster different from the rogue or the fighter archetypes

I'm not talking about multiclassing to "fix" something, I'm talking about being able to multiclass to fill a different archetype; i.e. a 4-elements Monk with more focus on spellcasting than a straight class 4-elements Monk.

Why should the 4-elements Monk be a different kind of spellcasting archetype to the EK or AT? Making the 4-elements Monk fall in line with the EK and AT doesn't make it more or less of a spellcaster than it already is, it just streamlines the mechanics such that you'd be able to fill more archetypes with it. As it stands, the only 4-elements Monk worth playing is a straight class one.


the obvious go to is avatar the last airbender, the monk from diablo 3, the 3 stroms from big trouble in little china where the spells where a part of their martial arts and so should the 4 element monk, it should go hand in hand with their ability to strike strong blows, flash through and hit multiple enemies, trip and disorient his oponents. All of these things using the elements.

How does making the 4-elements Monk a "1/3-caster" like the EK/AT not fill that image? Conversely, how does the 4-elements Monk as it stands, or fudging the rules slightly do it any better?

[BladeWing81]

How does making the 4-elements Monk a "1/3-caster" like the EK/AT not fill that image? Conversely, how does the 4-elements Monk as it stands, or fudging the rules slightly do it any better?
for the first question I think this goes more into personal preference, to me spellcasting (especially for the wizard spells which are used for the rogue and the fighter) is mostly design to be done from affar and has a lot of disadvantages when someone get up close to you which seems completely at odds for what the Monk class is. there's no right or wrong answer, it's just a matter of how you view the archetype.

And for your second question the short answer is that it doesn't make it any better unfortunately, which is the real reason we need a redesign or a homebrew similar to the one presented a few replies before.

[JellyPooga]

for the first question I think this goes more into personal preference, to me spellcasting (especially for the wizard spells which are used for the rogue and the fighter) is mostly design to be done from affar and has a lot of disadvantages when someone get up close to you which seems completely at odds for what the Monk class is. there's no right or wrong answer, it's just a matter of how you view the archetype.

I agree wholeheartedly. Which is why I suggested that the 4-elements Monk choose Spells Known from the Cleric list; Cleric spells are a lot more close-combat oriented. To bolster up the elemental theme, I'd throw in some "Domains" (with an appropriately eastern-themed name other than "Domain", of course) to cover the flashier Wizard-y spells you'd expect from a 4-elements Monk. Choosing your "Domain" would also give more scope to theme the archetype and your character.

[BladeWing81]

I agree wholeheartedly. Which is why I suggested that the 4-elements Monk choose Spells Known from the Cleric list; Cleric spells are a lot more close-combat oriented. To bolster up the elemental theme, I'd throw in some "Domains" (with an appropriately eastern-themed name other than "Domain", of course) to cover the flashier Wizard-y spells you'd expect from a 4-elements Monk. Choosing your "Domain" would also give more scope to theme the archetype and your character.

that sound pretty good actually, and I wouldn't be surprise to know that one of the next Monastic traditions in the sword coast adventure guide would be a cleric like healer or something with psionic powers. have any spoilers come out about the new monastic traditions?

[Shaofoo]

Personally I would love to see a Monk that uses spells from other classes but it should be a brand new subclass for monk, not changing the 4 Elements monk.

If I were to pick spells for the monk subclasses a rule that I would implement is that monks can never cast a spell to give a positive effect to target that isn't himself, just like how his stoneskin right now is only self targeting. So for example a Monk could learn Haste but he can only apply it to himself, not use it on his friends. And another thing that I would add is while a monk has his concentration on a buff cast on himself or a debuff cast on an enemy then the Concentration can never be broken due to damage or distractions, the Concentration is there more to force the limit of one effect but the Monk is never in danger of losing the spell unless he is knocked out or dies.

[JellyPooga]

If I were to pick spells for the monk subclasses a rule that I would implement is that monks can never cast a spell to give a positive effect to target that isn't himself

I can see where you're coming from with this idea, but I think it's arbitrarily limiting the scope of the "spellcasting Monk" archetype. I can imagine a kind of Mr.Myagi/Obi-Wan type Monk that buffs others.

[Shaofoo]

I can see where you're coming from with this idea, but I think it's arbitrarily limiting the scope of the "spellcasting Monk" archetype. I can imagine a kind of Mr.Myagi/Obi-Wan type Monk that buffs others.

It is not arbitrary, the monk should be the only benefit to his buffs since his buffs can never be beaten off. Damaging the monk to remove the buffs and debuffs isn't an option like the other spellcasters, even the Eldritch Knight risks losing his own buffs while in melee though he does come with Con save prof. Personally Mr. Miyagi and Obi-Wan are more long term teachers, they don't just leap forward into the assist, you learn after several months or a montage. You succeed because you have trained, not because they cast a buff in the last minute.

Besides Warlock doesn't have any buffing spells himself, at least any buffing spells that would be useful in combat, at least from what I could see at a glance. Sure he does have self buffs but that is the point. Maybe you would like the monk to have the full capabilities of a spell caster but I don't think that is very balanced, monks need more restrictions on the spells because their spells come in on a short rest while everyone else comes on a long rest.

[JellyPooga]

Damaging the monk to remove the buffs and debuffs isn't an option like the other spellcasters

Why not? The Monk relies on focus and concentration to maintain his meditative state, or whatever. Distracting him by beating him up seems a perfectly valid option to make him lose a buff.


Besides Warlock doesn't have any buffing spells himself

What's Warlock got to do with anything?


Maybe you would like the monk to have the full capabilities of a spell caster

I'd like them to have similar capabilities as the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.


but I don't think that is very balanced, monks need more restrictions on the spells because their spells come in on a short rest while everyone else comes on a long rest.

If they were a standard 1/3-caster like the EK/AT, they'd have spells per long rest. Seems balanced to me.

[Shaofoo]

Why not? The Monk relies on focus and concentration to maintain his meditative state, or whatever. Distracting him by beating him up seems a perfectly valid option to make him lose a buff.

Well if you don't like it then it is pointless to argue the point further, I kinda wanted monks to be unique not be a third submagic melee option.



What's Warlock got to do with anything?

Warlocks recharge their spells on a short rest like monks recharge their ki on a short rest. They probably had similar design choices so that is my point. You may not like it but I do find some form of consistency in both the Warlock and the 4 Elements monk.



I'd like them to have similar capabilities as the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.

You'd have to restrict the monk to two magic schools them or such similar restrictions.



If they were a standard 1/3-caster like the EK/AT, they'd have spells per long rest. Seems balanced to me.

But they are not, their spell progression and the slots they are able to produce seems more in line with 1/2 casters than 1/3. So you should be comparing them more to Rangers and Paladins than EK and ATs.

If you just wanna give two schools and slap the 1/3 progression and call it a day then you can do that. I kinda want my classes to be different.

[JellyPooga]

Well if you don't like it then it is pointless to argue the point further, I kinda wanted monks to be unique not be a third submagic melee option.

Whichever way you look at it, the Monk (4-elements or otherwise) is a hybrid class anyway; falling somewhere between the Fighter and Rogue in style. They're never going to be truly unique because they borrow too much from other classes.

Making the 4-elements a third "submagic melee option" using Clerical magic rather than Wizard is a unique divergence from the EK/AT. So far there is no 1/3-divine caster.


Warlocks recharge their spells on a short rest like monks recharge their ki on a short rest. They probably had similar design choices so that is my point. You may not like it but I do find some form of consistency in both the Warlock and the 4 Elements monk.

Fair point.


You'd have to restrict the monk to two magic schools them or such similar restrictions.

I have mentioned this. I suggested Divination and Evocation when I first spit-balled the idea. Having had a bit of time to look at this closer, I'd say Evocation and Abjuration might be better.


But they are not, their spell progression and the slots they are able to produce seems more in line with 1/2 casters than 1/3. So you should be comparing them more to Rangers and Paladins than EK and ATs.

Except both the Paladin and Ranger have spellcasting as part of their core class; only the 4-elements Monk really gets spellcasting to any variable degree, such that they'd be called a spellcaster in any way. Although the Way of Shadow Monk gets some spells, I doubt anyone would call them a spellcasting archetype.

As the spellcaster archetype of the Monk class, comparing the 4-elements Monk to EK and AT is, to my mind, a better comparison.


If you just wanna give two schools and slap the 1/3 progression and call it a day then you can do that. I kinda want my classes to be different.

The Monk revision I'm proposing would be wildly different to other classes; it'd still have all the melee control options it currently does, except you wouldn't be so reliant on single classing Monk.

Assuming you use multiclassing rules, what I'm proposing is a Monk that opens up a greater variety of character concepts and builds, by allowing greater synergy between the Monk and other classes.

Even without multiclassing you'd have a greater scope to customise your Monk, just by having the option to choose spells from the Cleric list instead of an extremely truncated list that has so far not been expanded (despite a supplement that supposedly increases options for elementally themed characters).

[BladeWing81]

Even without multiclassing you'd have a greater scope to customise your Monk, just by having the option to choose spells from the Cleric list instead of an extremely truncated list that has so far not been expanded (despite a supplement that supposedly increases options for elementally themed characters).

What was that about!? I mean a WHOOOLE suplement about elemental spells and Races and not a single goddamned spell for the subclass that actually has the word "ELEMENT" in it!! Would it have killed them to add two more pages so that the elemental monks could have had 10 or 20 more spells by just naming them differently and adding "you may spend 'X' ki points to cast 'Y' spell"? was it too much to ask?:smallfurious:

[Shaofoo]

Whichever way you look at it, the Monk (4-elements or otherwise) is a hybrid class anyway; falling somewhere between the Fighter and Rogue in style. They're never going to be truly unique because they borrow too much from other classes.

Hold on, first they are too different that they don't easily mesh with the classes and now they aren't unique enough because they borrow too much from other classes? If the latter is true then your problem is a nonissue because then the Element can take the borrowed elements and seamlessly mesh it together, no?




Assuming you use multiclassing rules, what I'm proposing is a Monk that opens up a greater variety of character concepts and builds, by allowing greater synergy between the Monk and other classes.

Personally, I am the kind of guy who looks into reflavoring and refluffing thanmaking new classes wholecloth just to get my concept rollling.

Want to have a fist fighting user that is more magic, then go Valor Bard or Paladin and take Tavern Brawler, sure you might lose out on some Monk things but that is the price of compromise, you can't have everything. Or even just reflavour any weapon into a gauntlet and use that for my damage.


Even without multiclassing you'd have a greater scope to customise your Monk, just by having the option to choose spells from the Cleric list instead of an extremely truncated list that has so far not been expanded (despite a supplement that supposedly increases options for elementally themed characters).

I prefer a truncated list than freeform because of the reasons I have already said, I would like more options but giving monks all the options isn't the way to go. But I don't think we will budge here, you want one thing and I want another, you can make your own monk class for your own games and I'll make my own. Lets just agree to disagree cause I don't think we can say anything else at this point that isn't a rehash.

[BladeWing81]

What do we want exactly at this point? It seems like some want an improvement on the subclass and others want a whole different thing all together.
I'm on the improving camp. Just add a few changes, make the spells cheaper, add more spell, include a couple of elemental cantrips, allow 2 spells per feature, maybe add more ki based on the achetype or maybe with the Wis modifier. basically just make the current subclass not suck anymore.
For others a reedesign seems like a good idea too, something completely different but keep the core idea of the elements.
and some just want a spell casting monk that doesn't use ki at all.

[Kryx]

If you want an improved version I again suggest Way of the Four Elements Remastered (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view) - it fixes everything imo.

Something different wouldn't be fixed by that though.

[Dralnu]

I'm on the improving camp. Just add a few changes, make the spells cheaper, add more spell, include a couple of elemental cantrips, allow 2 spells per feature, maybe add more ki based on the achetype or maybe with the Wis modifier. basically just make the current subclass not suck anymore.

That's pretty much exactly what my fix does. Spells cost 1 less ki (like Shadow), more spell selection and spells known, thematic cantrips, and some spells that don't cost ki. I also balanced some spells that were either too weak, too strong, or were too strong early and too weak late.

For those looking for a less complex version, something that's tighter and only takes up a couple pages like most other archetypes, there's Person_Man's version. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwT0tzdmFjeXBHY1U/view)

[Shaofoo]

That's pretty much exactly what my fix does. Spells cost 1 less ki (like Shadow), more spell selection and spells known, thematic cantrips, and some spells that don't cost ki. I also balanced some spells that were either too weak, too strong, or were too strong early and too weak late.

For those looking for a less complex version, something that's tighter and only takes up a couple pages like most other archetypes, there's Person_Man's version. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwT0tzdmFjeXBHY1U/view)

Not to bad talk but I really don't like this one much, the fact that each spell or ability is augmented with some other effect or does something like it but something else really kinda ruins the flow some. The spells themselves are okay and no class should have an effect that makes it different from someone else (the only class that I think has an unique effect is AT's Mage Hand).

Maybe just have them cast the spells as is instead of trying to one up other spell users

[BladeWing81]

Not to bad talk but I really don't like this one much, the fact that each spell or ability is augmented with some other effect or does something like it but something else really kinda ruins the flow some. The spells themselves are okay and no class should have an effect that makes it different from someone else (the only class that I think has an unique effect is AT's Mage Hand).

Maybe just have them cast the spells as is instead of trying to one up other spell users

which one do you mean? dralnu's version is exactly what I want and doesn't change anything other than the buffs can only target himself. Personman's version is another beast al together that I also love for whole different reasons. He removes almost completely the ki cost system and creates a new beast divided by 4 types of abilities (I don't think I can could call most of them as spells) created just for the monk that are just awesome sauce. first step is an improvement on the unarmed strikes, then a utility, then a AOE snd finally a transmutation effect. I love it!. frankly I wish these both were oficial subclasses.

[BladeWing81]

That's pretty much exactly what my fix does. Spells cost 1 less ki (like Shadow), more spell selection and spells known, thematic cantrips, and some spells that don't cost ki. I also balanced some spells that were either too weak, too strong, or were too strong early and too weak late.

For those looking for a less complex version, something that's tighter and only takes up a couple pages like most other archetypes, there's Person_Man's version. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwT0tzdmFjeXBHY1U/view)

I can't say enough how much I love both yours and personmans fixes, have you thought about any other subclasses that you would like to homebrew? I saw a few days ago a path of the dragon homebrew that looked great but you might have a different take and I myself have been wanting a blindsense Monk ala Zatoichi or toph Bei Fong.

[Shaofoo]

which one do you mean? dralnu's version is exactly what I want and doesn't change anything other than the buffs can only target himself. Personman's version is another beast al together that I also love for whole different reasons. He removes almost completely the ki cost system and creates a new beast divided by 4 types of abilities (I don't think I can could call most of them as spells) created just for the monk that are just awesome sauce. first step is an improvement on the unarmed strikes, then a utility, then a AOE snd finally a transmutation effect. I love it!. frankly I wish these both were oficial subclasses.

The one I am quoting is the one I have problems.

I don't like it because it cribs too much from existing abilities and spells and gives them extra effects. I wanted a monk that can cast spells and that one is definitely not it plus it has a slew of other problems. The main concept there is basically take the base monk and pile on the buffs from there sometimes. There are some unique effects but it is too little.

But that is my personal opinion, if you love it then use it, don't let me stop you. Personally I will just stick with my idea of giving my players agency in picking spells and then choosing if I accept or reject. My idea can't be put in a pdf to show off but it is the one I most like.

[Tanarii]

Ki is not a bad mechanic, per se, when you take the class in a vacuum. It is limiting when you try to combine it with other classes as it only scales with Monk levels. The same could be said for the Warlock or Sorcerer, but both of those have their own integration with other (spellcasting) classes; the Sorcerer because Metamagic can be applied to non-Sorcerer casting (which scales with other spellcasting classes) and the Warlock because Pact Magic can be used to cast non-Warlock spells more frequently (assuming a dearth of short rests). The Monk, on the other hand, has nice options for sure, but none of those options stack up with other classes.The warlock proves that SR-based spellcasting is viable. Obviously they either felt it couldn't balanced as a 1/3 SR-based caster, or they specifically didn't want Monk spellcasting to stack with normal spellcasting. I have no idea if the latter would be for thematic reasons or Multiclass-balance reasons. But it's clearly intentional.

One thing I like about the way things are now is the way spell abilities are mixed in with non-spell abilities. Although it feels like an awfully limited list of abilities total to choose from. In fact that's the way I feel about ALL monk paths. They all add a little to the Monk base-class. But a Monk is a Monk is a Monk.

[Vogonjeltz]

for a caster it does nothing it cant do as a martial.

Area of Effect spells, Flight, Hold Person? I'm pretty sure those are things martials don't just 'do'.

In any event, I'd add the following options pretty readily, the basic elemental discipline theme holds true: spell level +1 in ki cost to cast, max level of any spell is 5th (17th level required)


Fire disciplines:
Flaming Sphere - 3 ki
Scorching Ray - 3 ki
Fire shield - 5 ki
Flame Strike - 6 ki

Air Disciplines:
Nothing seemed pertinent

Earth Disciplines:
Meld into Stone - 4 ki (this seems kind of stupid for the cost)
Stone shape - 5 ki (this also seems stupid for the cost)

Water Disciplines:
Misty Step - 3 ki (Seems pointless with gaseous form)
Water Breathing - 4 ki (also seems kind of stupid for the cost)

Not added:
Feather Fall - Monk already has Slow Fall
Water Walk - Monk has a 9th level feature similar
Hold Monster - Maybe Clench of the North Wind should be upgradable
Control Water - Just seems better than Shape the Flowing River, albeit a much higher theoretical ki cost


There really didn't seem like much of anything worthwhile in the PHB given the criteria used. A few were superior (but significantly more costly) and carried little additional benefit; some were straight up redundant with Monk class features; the fire ones weren't really redundant, but they also weren't incredibly different or even very useful.


That's pretty much exactly what my fix does. Spells cost 1 less ki (like Shadow), more spell selection and spells known, thematic cantrips, and some spells that don't cost ki. I also balanced some spells that were either too weak, too strong, or were too strong early and too weak late.

For those looking for a less complex version, something that's tighter and only takes up a couple pages like most other archetypes, there's Person_Man's version.

I think the ki cost reduction sounds pretty imbalancing. Unlike Shadow Arts (all of which are non-damage spells) the Elemental Spells are almost all damage spells, and most are scalable area of effects. Fist of Unbroken Air or Water Whip (costs 2 ki normally) could deal 4d10 damage at level 3. That average damage well exceeds a Wizard's average hp at that level.

That just sounds overpowered (at level 3 at least) considering all that ki comes back on a short rest.

[BladeWing81]

I think the ki cost reduction sounds pretty imbalancing. Unlike Shadow Arts (all of which are non-damage spells) the Elemental Spells are almost all damage spells, and most are scalable area of effects. Fist of Unbroken Air or Water Whip (costs 2 ki normally) could deal 4d10 damage at level 3. That average damage well exceeds a Wizard's average hp at that level.

That just sounds overpowered (at level 3 at least) considering all that ki comes back on a short rest.

You might be right abut those two spell I think I would lower the damage to 2d10 on each for the 1 ki cost. At level 3 you could do the spell three times in a fight but I can promise you, you're not using fist of unbroken air nor water whip that much if you want to survive as a monk at level 3. on level 3 I'm more worried about not dying so my best friends are patient defense and step of the wind becuase of my low AC and HP and the fact that the monk is a melee fighter so wasting your ki on purely damage spells on a big fight is not recomended. my usual actions taking in acount the alternate low ki cost of whip/fist is to hit once with whip/fist then use ki to dodge that's 2 ki points right there then either maybe do another whip/fist if there is 3 or less enemies otherwise attack once and probably disengage or dodge if needed. and that's all you got for ki points for the rest of the battle. The way it is NOW at level 3 I don't use a single spell, only disengage, dodge and maybe flurry of blows once.

[Vogonjeltz]

You might be right abut those two spell I think I would lower the damage to 2d10 on each for the 1 ki cost. At level 3 you could do the spell three times in a fight but I can promise you, you're not using fist of unbroken air nor water whip that much if you want to survive as a monk at level 3. on level 3 I'm more worried about not dying so my best friends are patient defense and step of the wind becuase of my low AC and HP and the fact that the monk is a melee fighter so wasting your ki on purely damage spells on a big fight is not recomended. my usual actions taking in acount the alternate low ki cost of whip/fist is to hit once with whip/fist then use ki to dodge that's 2 ki points right there then either maybe do another whip/fist if there is 3 or less enemies otherwise attack once and probably disengage or dodge if needed. and that's all you got for ki points for the rest of the battle. The way it is NOW at level 3 I don't use a single spell, only disengage, dodge and maybe flurry of blows once.

What is your party make-up? I think the elements monk could afford to use its offensive abilities more if there's someone else who is routinely taking the hit (Monk's not wearing armor kind of makes them fragile).

I'd probably take Spell Sniper at 4th level on an Elements Monk to pick up Produce Flame (druid cantrip, so it also uses wisdom as a casting stat) and then focus on being a ranged attacker who only engages in melee when pressed/out of ki. Probably Acrobatics/Insight from class (modified obviously based on background chosen).

[MrStabby]

The problem with the caster monk is that it's limited selection of magic abilities overlap too strongly with its non magical abilities You end up being able to use your action - to do damage or use your action and ki - to do damage.

dropping the shackles of the elemental theme would help but mainly the class needs things that are not competing with just hitting things for use of an action. More bonus action abilities or spells like elemental weapon that boost, not replace an attack.

[Shaofoo]

The problem with the caster monk is that it's limited selection of magic abilities overlap too strongly with its non magical abilities You end up being able to use your action - to do damage or use your action and ki - to do damage.

dropping the shackles of the elemental theme would help but mainly the class needs things that are not competing with just hitting things for use of an action. More bonus action abilities or spells like elemental weapon that boost, not replace an attack.

The elemental monk has a lot of abilities already that are not just damage, it has walls, stone skin, gaseous form, hold person and even abilities that control enemy positioning and this is just the very limited offering we have now.

I do not know what you are seeing that makes you say that you only do damage with your elemental abilities. Even the abilities that deal damage most have secondary effects. The monk might need more spells but lack of non damage spells isn't one of his problems. Me thinks it is less having the monk drop the shackles of the element theme and you looking a bit closer as to what the monk actually has. When you can truly quantify what the monk has then I feel you can have a better grasp what is nee

Also you usually compete for your bonus action with either Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows as well so saying that you need more bonus action abilities is very counter intuitive with the whole Monk class.

[BladeWing81]

What is your party make-up? I think the elements monk could afford to use its offensive abilities more if there's someone else who is routinely taking the hit (Monk's not wearing armor kind of makes them fragile).

I'd probably take Spell Sniper at 4th level on an Elements Monk to pick up Produce Flame (druid cantrip, so it also uses wisdom as a casting stat) and then focus on being a ranged attacker who only engages in melee when pressed/out of ki. Probably Acrobatics/Insight from class (modified obviously based on background chosen).

No issue with the group, just ******* DM. I have a two tank group (fighter 22AC and heavy armor master and a Barbarian with aspect of the bear and heavy armored feat) and I still get hit 3 times per round. without step of the wind and patient defense I'd be dead since lvl 4 (I'm lvl 6 now)

you recommendations are good but it means I need to take a Feat and multiclass to barely do what the subclass was supposed to do from the start. Tbh I think the only thing I need is step of the wind, patient defense or both to drop the ki cost, it's not like rogues don't have it from lvl 2 with cunning action without any use limitation and they out-damage monks in every subclass from lvl 4 and up. so it's not like it's going to break the game.

[BladeWing81]

The problem with the caster monk is that it's limited selection of magic abilities overlap too strongly with its non magical abilities You end up being able to use your action - to do damage or use your action and ki - to do damage.

dropping the shackles of the elemental theme would help but mainly the class needs things that are not competing with just hitting things for use of an action. More bonus action abilities or spells like elemental weapon that boost, not replace an attack.

I feel that the caster subclass of the monk should synergies it's spells with the Monks unarmed attacks either adding more damage, add debuffs, add movement to the attacks without provoking opportunity or just plain trip the opponent all of the above should not cost ki points or at least not cost more than 1 ki point to do them and add a couple of on hit touch cantrips like shocking grasp or greenflame blade. that's it! that's all I need, after that if you could just remove the ki cost from step of the wind and patient defense. after that my imagination can do the rest and you got yourself an elemental monk.

[Shaofoo]

I feel that the caster subclass of the monk should synergies it's spells with the Monks unarmed attacks either adding more damage, add debuffs, add movement to the attacks without provoking opportunity or just plain trip the opponent all of the above should not cost ki points or at least not cost more than 1 ki point to do them and add a couple of on hit touch cantrips like shocking grasp or greenflame blade. that's it! that's all I need, after that if you could just remove the ki cost from step of the wind and patient defense. after that my imagination can do the rest and you got yourself an elemental monk.

What you are saying goes counter to an actual caster class, if you want a caster I don't know how adding effects to melee attacks outside of spells help. Even the EK and the Valor Bard just attacks when you cast a spell, they don't do anything flashy with their attacks when they cast a spell. Also what you are looking for is already implemented in the Open Hand monk.

Also I don't think monks should get damaging cantrips because their spells recharge on a short rest. The non damaging cantrips he should definitely get though.

The elemental monk just needs more spell selection, everything else is fine and should not be changed at all. He doesn't need buffs, he is a half caster that gets his spells on a short rest and has a ton of other things in his arsenal. The only thing that is hurting was the lack of selection and the lack of expansion opportunities.

[CNagy]

Removing the Ki cost from Patient Defense makes it practically a no-brainer for the Monk to dodge every turn in melee. If you've got a DM that prioritizes hitting your Monk over the other characters, that's not a problem with the class. I can count on both hands the number of times I've actually had to use Patience Defense in play. The ki cost for abilities is fine.

Earlier, I threw my support behind a Elemental Monk that more closely resembled the Rune abilities from the Rune Scribe. I still think that is the best makeover for them, but today it struck me that the Monk is very much the odd man of the martial class lineup. In a way, that gives him something in common with the Warlock, who is the odd man of the caster classes. Perhaps what the Elemental Monk needs is something closer to the Warlock's Invocations; small abilities that are constant, small abilities that take actions or bonus actions, bigger abilities that take Ki, etc. Separate each group of Invocations into their respective Elemental traditions with level restrictions for the bigger guns, and let the Monk gain and change traditions ever so often.

[Dralnu]

The one I am quoting is the one I have problems.

I don't like it because it cribs too much from existing abilities and spells and gives them extra effects. I wanted a monk that can cast spells and that one is definitely not it plus it has a slew of other problems. The main concept there is basically take the base monk and pile on the buffs from there sometimes. There are some unique effects but it is too little.

But that is my personal opinion, if you love it then use it, don't let me stop you. Personally I will just stick with my idea of giving my players agency in picking spells and then choosing if I accept or reject. My idea can't be put in a pdf to show off but it is the one I most like.

It's just one homebrew and I don't expect it to appeal to everyone. I'm not sure I understand these criticisms though.

The official Elemental Monk is a mix of casting PHB spells and some unique abilities. My homebrew merely expands the amount of spells they cast and unique abilities. It mirrors exactly how the official elements does it.

The only major change is I've added some options that have less powerful effects but cost no ki, should you want options that don't expend ki.

That said, if you don't like it no worries. I just want you to not like it for the right reasons :smalltongue:


I think the ki cost reduction sounds pretty imbalancing. Unlike Shadow Arts (all of which are non-damage spells) the Elemental Spells are almost all damage spells, and most are scalable area of effects. Fist of Unbroken Air or Water Whip (costs 2 ki normally) could deal 4d10 damage at level 3. That average damage well exceeds a Wizard's average hp at that level.

That just sounds overpowered (at level 3 at least) considering all that ki comes back on a short rest.

I took into consideration the lessened ki cost when designing the homebrew. I also modified the damage of the PHB unique abilities, including Water Whip. My version of Water Whip does 2x Martial Arts Die + 2x WIS mod, plus an additional 1d10 per ki spent. That's 2d4 + ~6 (11) damage, or if you spend 3 ki points it's 22 damage vs. official Water Whip's 22, the same.

Each ability was reviewed and most reworked for better balance. I explain the reasoning behind my math balance at the end of the document. I'm also always open to further tweaks as necessary.


I can't say enough how much I love both yours and personmans fixes, have you thought about any other subclasses that you would like to homebrew? I saw a few days ago a path of the dragon homebrew that looked great but you might have a different take and I myself have been wanting a blindsense Monk ala Zatoichi or toph Bei Fong.

Glad you enjoy them! No current plans to create more homebrew classes at the moment. It's not out of the question, but if I do have time to write more DND stuff my first priority is my adventure writing.

[Shaofoo]

It's just one homebrew and I don't expect it to appeal to everyone. I'm not sure I understand these criticisms though.

The official Elemental Monk is a mix of casting PHB spells and some unique abilities. My homebrew merely expands the amount of spells they cast and unique abilities. It mirrors exactly how the official elements does it.

The only major change is I've added some options that have less powerful effects but cost no ki, should you want options that don't expend ki.

That said, if you don't like it no worries. I just want you to not like it for the right reasons :smalltongue:



I am talking about Person_mann's homebrew

A big thing that I do not like is in the presentation, the way the powers are given and presented is a direct copy of the Totem Barbarian which has one 3rd level, 6th level and so on only. The other powers I could retrain to anything as long as I can meet the minimum level so if I want my powers to be all big spenders I can do that. If I only want my powers to be cheap casters then I can do that, I can't do that with the presented homebrew.

Second it takes abilities that the Monk has and tries to outright buff them, Flurry of Blows, Slow Fall and Patient defense all gain buffs, seems a bit uninspired.

Third it takes spells and gives them secondary abilities when the spells in the monk class don't do that outside of making buffs self casting.

And I would never give them no ki damaging abilities because I believe that if a monk is out of ki, his only recourse left is to run up things and punch them (or use a ranged weapon of some kind), his no ki option should be attacking. That is how I feel about the monk class and your ideas might vary but he shouldn't even get a damaging cantrip as a backup. Now non damaging cantrips and flavor abilities are okay in my book.

The other homebrew was fine, the ki cost was the big problem there since I feel that spell level was too low considering that monks get ki on a short rest.

[BladeWing81]

Removing the Ki cost from Patient Defense makes it practically a no-brainer for the Monk to dodge every turn in melee. If you've got a DM that prioritizes hitting your Monk over the other characters, that's not a problem with the class. I can count on both hands the number of times I've actually had to use Patience Defense in play. The ki cost for abilities is fine.


You're absolutely right, Patient defense is good with the ki cost, I think I got carried away and only wanted step of the wind to get disengage without the ki cost much like the rogue has cunning action.

[BladeWing81]

What you are saying goes counter to an actual caster class, if you want a caster I don't know how adding effects to melee attacks outside of spells help. Even the EK and the Valor Bard just attacks when you cast a spell, they don't do anything flashy with their attacks when they cast a spell. Also what you are looking for is already implemented in the Open Hand monk.

Also I don't think monks should get damaging cantrips because their spells recharge on a short rest. The non damaging cantrips he should definitely get though.

The elemental monk just needs more spell selection, everything else is fine and should not be changed at all. He doesn't need buffs, he is a half caster that gets his spells on a short rest and has a ton of other things in his arsenal. The only thing that is hurting was the lack of selection and the lack of expansion opportunities.

I'm not sure I agree with that just because the elemental monk is not a true caster class at all and there shouldn't be one that's like the other caster classes. I'm ok with most of the spell created for the class (mainly water whip, fangs of the fire snake and fist of unbroken air) because they synergize well with his melee attacks and that's how they all should be and that's why I think it should get a melee cantrip like greenflame blade (but change it to only be uses for one attack) because it makes sense for the elemental monk.